Hunting With Bows - A question for Superfly & whoever else....

[Pert_UK]

I know you'll find it hard to believe, but I have actually been defending hunting and bashing the people who seem to sincerely believe that buying meat from a supermarket involves no animal suffering.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=173088&mesg_id=173088

I do have one question though, as I am totally unfamiliar with hunting with bows.....

How often do you get a clean kill on a large animal (e.g. a deer) using a bow? Is it significantly less often than with a rifle?

I have no objection to hunting for food, provided that the means employed aren't unnecessarily cruel to the animal targeted. Superfly strikes me as a responsible hunter, judging solely from his remarks on the subject, but I was wondering about the accuracy / power / effectiveness of the weapon itself....I would be highly surprised if it didn't require better stalking & shooting skills to kill with a bow rather than a gun, not to mention more difficulty in getting a second shot off (if that's ever possible).

Incidentally - I don't think that I've ever mentioned that I used to be a member of the BASC when I was younger......British Association for Shooting and Conservation...OK, it was only air-rifles but I was out in the woods shooting targets every other Sunday...

P.

[Spentastic]

1. Well someone must use them!

They sell these chairs / platforms that you mount on a tree. You then sit quietly on said platform (I think they have cup holders) next to a game trail, You then wait for your quarry to pass within range (not very far) and loose your razor tipped arrows. I imagine this scenario yields lots of clean kills.

I'm pretty ambivalent about hunting for food. Killing stuff for food is not pretty however it is done. I don't like trophy and those crass "stocked" hunts where they import animals and then let people hunt them.

[Pert_UK]

2. Careful, Spen.....

Much more of this and the pro-RKBA will start to think that we're not just some panty-wearing, tree-hugging, limp-wristed, hippy vegans!

:evilgrin:

P.

[Spentastic]

3. I have to be careful anyway

I'm going "over there" soon.

I fish. Sometime I kill my catch and eat it. I the only way I could get steak was to personally kill a cow I'm pretty sure I'd be out murdering herds in no time. Philosophically I'm a hippy bean eating vegan. I just can't bring myself to actually be one. It's coming though.

[Romulus]

6. questions for the UK people

Iverglas and I were wondering in another thread if hunting was allowed on UK public lands. The question came up during a discussion of the requirment of showing the police your intended suitable hunting grounds before you could get a UK gun permit.

Is it true that bowhunting isn't allowed in the UK?

[Superfly]

7. I think they prefer these

Holland & Holland

[Spentastic]

8. Hmmmm I'll check for you

It's Illegal. You can't hunt live prey with bows.

[Pert_UK]

22. When I used to buy gun mags........

there was always an advert for Barnett compound bows on the back, with a picture of a guy basically squaring up to a brown bear from about 10 yards, with a bow aimed........in tiny small print at the bottom it said "Hunting live animals with a bow is illegal in the UK" - it's been a few years since I bought a gun mag, but I don't suppose that they've made it legal since...

P.

[Mass_Liberal]

25. that blackadder quote rules

goes fourth was so funny. Good taste.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

4. I have used a bow

I have used a bow exactly once to take a deer, and I won't do it again. I was maybe 40 yards from the deer when I released the arrow. It made a sound like someone ripping a burlap sack when it penetrated and the deer wound up running. We tracked the deer and recovered it, but I do not like to kill deer in this manner. I will use a rifle from now on, end of story. Maybe someone else here has had better luck bowhunting.

More power, more range. A deer falls where it stands if I do my job correctly.

[Superfly]

5. Good question!

-Bowhunting vs. rifle hunting.

I've been hunting since I was 8 years old and my first method was using a rifle (30-06) under the direct supervision of my father. I've hunted pretty much each season, even in Germany, and consider myself an expert shot at short to intermediate ranges (I would never even try a shot past 100 yds...just too much room to wound vs kill a deer.)

In all those years, I've shot (with a rifle) a couple deer that've run up to 1/2-3/4 mile before dying.

About 6 years ago, I picked up bowhunting and all the deer I've taken that way have dropped within sight of my treestand, eliminating the need for time-consuming tracking and recovery of the deer. Not to mention the 100% recovery rate of the carcass.

But, that's just personal experience. I'm sure there are people out there who take the long shots and wound deer with bows and arrows just as there are rifle hunters who take the long shots and do the same.

When I place my treestand, I clear "shooting lanes" where I remove branches, etc. This reduces the likelihood of a deflected arrow and a wounded animal. I clear these lanes out to a maximum of 50 yards, and place a orange piece of tape at that distance to indicate the farthest I am willing to shoot. If a deer walks by past that point, I try to call it in, but I will not take the shot past the tape.

You oght to try it sometimes. With today's modern camo, you are pretty much invisible to animals. I've had blue jays, woodpeckers, a cardinals, and squirrels land/crawl on my treestand about 30" from my face and never even know I was there. It's kind of cool!

Brian

[Man_in_the_Moon]

9. Well

How often do you get a clean kill on a large animal (e.g. a deer) using a bow?

Depends on the person taking the shot more than using a bow. A well placed shot with a bow (using a broadhead hunting arrow) is just as lethal as (if not more lethal than) a well placed shot with a rifle. If anything a slightly less than well placed shot with a bow is more lethal than with a rifle, a broadhead hunting arrow stuck in an animal (or human) is much more deadly than a bullet. Everytime the wounded animal moves the razor sharp blades open up more blood vessels.

Is it significantly less often than with a rifle?

Nope as I said above, it all boils down the the person taking the shot. Of course most people dont ever learn to use a bow well enough to really be as proficent with one. And take shots they should not reasonably take. It takes much longer, and is much more physically demanding to learn to shoot a bow well enough to really be skilled enough (in my opinion) to hunt with, and alot of people out there are too lazy to put the effort into it.

[Township75]

10. I do NOT bow hunt, but from my friends that have

tell me that some animals can survive.


I think it depends on 2 variables

1. Distance between you and the target. Obviously, the further away the target is, the less energy the arrow will impact into the target upon impact

2. Accuracy - There is a kill area for most animals.

First off, there is more than enough energy in a released arrow from a compound bow to kill an animal. But if it is hit in the legs/hind area, it will take a while for the animal to die.

I personally do NOT like bow hunting, because there are animals that get hit and run off...most likely to die, but some do survive the hit. Hunters miss less often with a rifle and an accurate scope.

[jody]

11. Pert, the reply by Man_in_the_Moon is an excellent summary. In addition,

the majority of bow hunters use tree stands and the maximum shot is perhaps 25-35 yards for deer.

If you mean by a "clean kill", does a deer die instantly, the answer is no. Nearly all shots by hunters using bows or guns is to the heart area. In some cases, a deer is wounded and escapes only to die later. In addition to teaching safety, hunter safety courses stress the importance of making a clean kill.

In my state, deer have reached major pest levels and the limit in most areas is one deer per day for a 50 to 70 day season and in other areas, two deer per day for a 50 to 70 day season. See Hunting Seasons

Deer also account for many automobile accidents and an occasional driver fatality.

[Spoonman]

12. A clean kill?

My experience has taught me that it
1. Depends on the animal beening hunted
2. Shot placement

I have hunted on four continents and almost everywhere in North America.

I use to bow hunt exclusivelly for about five years, and now only hunt deer with a bow.

Larger animals tend to be more dificult to "drop" with an arrow.
The last large animal I took with a bow was a 450 lb wild hog.
I hit it perfect, through the heart and both lungs, at a distance of about 25 yards.
Two hours later I found it about 1/4 of a mile away.
I have never had a deer run more than 30-50 yards.
I have even shot deer, and thought I missed (twice), because the animal merely jumped as if startled.
Both times, the animals resumed eating, and before I could get another arrow ready, the animals began to wobble and fell to the ground. I don’t think they even realize they had been hit.

I now use a rifle for the vast majority of my hunts now. The caliber (size) of the gun depends on the size of the game.
My favorite caliber for deer and hogs is actually relatively small, a .223 (the same exact cartridge used in the DC sniper “assault” rifle) bolt action Remington. Since I shoot everything in the neck (for the instant micro-second kill effect) it’s perfect. Highly accurate, cheap, and minimal recoil, makes it the best choice for myself and my children.

[Township75]

13. Neck shot?

Where on the neck do you shoot it at?

I have always been told to stay away from there, and go for the heart/lung shot.

[Spoonman]

15. Don't listen to that stuff.

Five things that make a neck shot the best choice.

1. If you hit them in the neck, it's basically instant death. They don't feel a thing. A truely clean kill is not possible when you shoot them in the chest.

2. You NEVER have to go looking for them. They will be laying exactlly where they were standing when you shot them.

3. If you miss the target, you don't have wounded animal that runs off to die elsewhere, or suffer before you find it.

4. With a neck shot, the animal never gets the adrenaline flowing, which results in better tasting meat.

5. Less than a pound of wasted meat. Front shoulders and tenderloins never get ruined.

I do not recomend anyone attempt this unless you have an extreemly accurate "tack driver" rifle, and can shoot 1/2 inch groups at your normal shot distances with it.
My .223 shoots 1/2 inch groups at 300 yards, but I keep it sighted in at 100, because I rarely shoot further than that.
If your state allows the use of small calibers for hunting, I would suggest a .223, .22-250, .222, 22 Hornet, 6mm, or a .243 for larger hooved animals.
I have dropped elk in Wyoming at 250 yds using my .243, with the same results.

Place the shot in the upper half of the neck of a deer or elk, and about 1.5 inches directly below the ear of a wild hog.

[Superfly]

14. Sounds like you need

a string silencer to eliminate the slap. Get a Mathews.

"I have even shot deer, and thought I missed (twice), because the animal merely jumped as if startled"

[Spoonman]

16. It's quiet!

Custom made Viking Terminator - Local manufacturer here in Houston.
I actually met Bo Jackson when I went in to pick it up, he was picking his up as well.

Slings a 25 inch 2213 with a 100 grain satelite titan @ 298 fps with standard cams.

[Superfly]

18. AMO or IBO?

My mathews is rated at 308fps IBO

[Spoonman]

19. IBO

At 75 lbs peak

[Superfly]

20. Yah...

I've got a 70# bow with an 80% letoff. 30" drawlength.

[jody]

17. Pert, unstated so far in this thread is the effect that compound-bows

have had on bow hunting. The number of bow-hunters "before compound-bows" was very small due to the amount of practice required with a long-bow or recurve-bow to be able to hit a target.

Compound-bows, bow sights, etc. have made bow hunting very effective for the average hunter.

[Paladin]

21. Pert, I Know Several Ranch Owners In Central Texas......

....who have shut their places to bow hunting for deer (thus foregoing a significant amount of income) because they got tired of finding the remains of arrow-shot deer that were never recovered and ended up dying lingering, undoubtedly painful deaths. Pretty unpleasant, but then bow hunting's leading exponent these days is Ted Nugent, so it somehow figures......

[Pert_UK]

23. Thanks everybody.....

I must admit that I was tempted to go off on a rant about how bow hunting must risk injuring rather than killing the animal, then it occurred to me that:

a) I'd seen some hunting arrows that looked pretty deadly and more likely to cause lethal damage than a bullet, which might have to be better placed and

b) I really ought to find out a few more facts before forming an opinion.

As it stands, I don't have a problem with hunting at all, provided that it's done responsibly and effort is made to kill cleanly...Oh, and it's done for food - anyone who hunts for fun and then just leaves the animal where it fell should probably have their guns taken from them and shoved back up their arse.

IMHO of course, and barring the need for pest control...

P.

[happyslug]

24. Now I have used Compounds Bows in the past,

But presently I am using a Recurve (I am going traditional in my dotage). Recurves tend not to be as accurate as Compounds nor as powerful. The let off of most compounds permit longer holds since you are holding less poundage.

Recurves work the opposite of Compounds. With a recurve (or even an English low bow) the further you pull back the more weight you are pulling. Presently I am using a 50 pound pull recurve (50 pounds at 28 inches, I pull 29 so I am actually pulling about 54 pounds when I use my bow).

Compounds on the other hand starts with their greatest poundage and than as you pull back the cams and pulleys kick in and you pull a lesser weight. For example Superfly's comment on a 75 pound bow with a 80% let off, when Superfly has pulled the bow back to its maximum length he is holding only 15 pounds. This permits greater accuracy with more powerful bows. A person can hold and aim a 15 pound pull much longer than a person pulling a 80 pound bow.

Now I do recurve, but I am only shooting targets at the present time. I have not hunted in years. The club I belong to sets up animal targets every month or so (called a 3D shoot) so people like me can shoot at stuff animals like deer and other animals. This helps people who shoot bows to prepare for hunting. They can see how their miss and plan their hunt so that such misses are minimized. Broad-heads are NOT permitted on the clubs ground for their tear up the stuff animals to much.

Another factor you must consider is that the ability to kill an animal is a combination of the forward trajectory of the arrow and its weight (bullets work the same, no forward motion no killing ability).

While velocity is important, what actual does the killing is the energy transferred from the projectile (be it arrow or bullet) to the animal. While arrows have much lower velocity than bullets (and velocity does affect range) bullets have much less mass than arrows. Thus at most deer kill ranges Arrows provide roughly the same amount of energy on an animal than most bullets. Remember in the US (I live in Pennsylvania) most deer are killed at less than 50 yards. This is true of both guns and Bows. Thus given the ranges involved, if the archer is knows his bows he has as much chance to kill a deer as a person with a gun.

One last comment, I use to butcher hogs in my youth (or more accurately I helped my father do the butchering). My father would shoot the hog with a 22 long rifle just above the eyes (and below the forehead). this would stun the hog and I would jump down and lift up the hog's leg at which point my father had put down his 22 rifle and used applied his knife to the jugular of the hog. The hog would kick for a few minutes afterwards but as soon as the jugular was cut the hog was dead. Nervous reactions would last for 1-2 minutes afterwards but the hog was already dead. Chickens are another creature with strong nervous reaction after dead, the famous comment of running around like a chicken with his head cut off came from the fact chickens with their head cut off (and thus brain dead) would still run around a barn yard for about a minute. I mention these items to make sure you understand that if someone shows you films of creatures running around after being hit by a bow, the issue is NOT that the creature is Running, but is this a nervous reaction of a already dead animal OR a wounded animals running away. A clean kill will not always knock an animal down, but that animal may be dead anyway.

Most bow hunters take care NOT to wound but to make sure the kill is within their ability to hit the target. I find this is true of almost all hunters, but more sure of archers for archers know they are hunting under a handicap and as such more careful to make sure of a kill.

Now I am presently using a recurve more for enjoyment than to train for hunting. If I ever go hunting again I would use a compound for its greater power but I like the recurve for it i more like the Bows of old than the Compounds are.

[DaleFM]

26. Decent replies so far

I use a compound bow set at 55# draw weight with a 65% let off using 125 grain broadheads. I only have taken one deer so far with the same set up. The shot was taken from the ground at 15 yards and the deer only went 40 yards to where put my tag on it. When I explored the area of where the broadhead went through(complete pass through) there was considerable damgage causing the blood loss. The deer was more surprised at the sound of the bow than to what the arrow did.

I only will do a broadside shot at a maximum range of 25 yards. In order to justify using the bow I do like many other bowhunters. Practice Practice Practice.