Straw purchase my ass!

[goju]

A good friend and neighbor of ours is retiring this month. My sons went with his sons on friday, and it turned out saturday, to buy him a Ruger for the commemorative, custom engraved presentation box they had made as a retirement gift. They had the box custom made, silver plaque on the front engraved with an inscription from the whole family, and very expensive. The box was almost as expensive as the pistol. They were going to have some engraving done on the pistol too, but.......

The dipshit down at the gun shop put the paperwork in front of Sean. They started talking about engraving and when they needed it done and the idiot behind the counter heard the pistol was for their dad, or misheard something. I dont know exactly what they said or what the idiot behind the counter heard, but half way through the paperwork he put his hand over it and told them he wouldnt sell the pistol to him. You can buy a gun as a gift as long as you dont lie on the paperwork. That wasnt a straw purchase in any way. They argued with the guy a little and finally got the owner of the shop on the phone, but he was either too damn lazy or too stupid to see what was going on, so he told the idiot in charge not to sell it. That was a $700 sale they just screwed themselves out of. I guess he can afford that. ?

I could understand not selling it to him if they were kids but Sean is in his 30's, Adam is younger but they were brothers and had been in there a few times, and only one of my sons is underage. I could understand if they were buying an AR or a glock or some gangster gun, but it was a fucking SINGLE ACTION pistol! I could even understand if they looked like hoodlums or something, but they are all clean cut young men who openly said it was gift for their father. To make a long story short, they had to drive 2 hours on saturday to find another pistol but, now they have to order the grips they wanted, and have it engraved, by the 20th! Thats not enough time.

I was in the mood to stir up shit so I called the owner of the shop on sunday to pitch a fit about it but I guess Im not in there enough to be remembered (at least twice a month :eyes: ). He was dismissive and rude and said, in not so friendly of words, that he wasnt obligated to sell anything to anyone. Ok then, he will lose my business, thanks for listening to a frequent customer, assface! A word of advice, keep your mouth shut. Some people dont have a clue. I dont know whether this gun shop has had trouble in the past but I wouldnt doubt that they had. They obviously dont know the laws, or cant follow them anyway so I can imagine they've been nailed before.

Keep your mouth shut and dont give them any more information than you are required to give.

[Squatch]

1. Can't really find fault with the gun store...

When in doubt, don't sell.

[goju]

2. Its not the policy of "when in doubt"

Its not that policy that I question, its the "who the fuck has any brain cells left" policy that this gun store employs? Like I said, I wouldnt have any issue with it if they had a clue as to what constitutes a straw purchase, but clearly they dont. If they cant discriminate between "doubtful" purchases and lawful ones, they shouldnt be in business.

[Squatch]

3. Personally, I would rather they err on the side of

extreme carefulness and lose a customer or two, than allow a straw purchase to occur in which "keep your mouth shut and dont give them any more information than you are required to give" was the mechanism by which the purchaser was effecting the sale.

[goju]

4. Thats usually what buyers do anyway

Remember, if this had been a real straw purchase, chances are there woulndt have been 4 guys in the shop buying the pistol and talking about who the gun is for. If it had been intentionally illegal, one guy probably would have walked in and bought it without saying anything.

I know what you mean but, it fairly fucking stupid that a couple guys cant buy their dad a pistol as a gift, especially when its perfectly legal.

[TX-RAT]

5. if this had been a real straw purchase?

How does the gunshop know it's not a straw purchase. Just because the kids say so?
I agree with squatch

[goju]

7. Well by that logic

How does any gun shop know whether its NOT a straw purchase? Just because the customer says so? They can certainly run themselves out of business with that type of thinking, cant they?

And by the way, they arent exactly kids. I call them that because they are my kids and the neighbors are like kids to me, but they were all over 21 aside from my youngest who is 18.

[Squatch]

6. It can be frustrating, for sure

but I think it's a pretty effective system. Read my thread on buying the 10/22 for my father-in-law. Whereas I felt a bit annoyed by the whole process, I know that it's potentially keeping guns out of the hands of some criminal shitheels.

But, if your friends were treated unprofessionaly by the gun shop, I believe there is a complaint process by which you can make your greivance known to the feds. Personally, I would just give the gunshop a big FU and go make my purchase elsewhere. Then, I would recommend to all my friends that they do the same.

[goju]

9. Oh I did

I called the owner of the gun shop and gave him a ration of shit but I dont think it had any effect. I dont know them by name and they dont know me by name, but they will recognize me when they see me. I might just head down there in a few weeks and reiterate my feelings. I just cant believe they can be that beligerent about an obvious gift. They were going to have THEM engrave the damn thing! :eyes:

[TX-RAT]

8. Think about what you just posted.

(I don't know exactly what they said or what the idiot behind the counter heard,)
And your reaming out the gun-shop?

[goju]

11. the point was...

I dont know what the idiot behind the counter interpreted from that conversation. I know for a fact they werent talking about buying the gun then giving it to some unknown gangster, or some unknown person. I know for a fact they mentioned it was for their father, as a gift. I know for a fact they were talking about having it engraved, as a retirement gift, for their father. And I know for a fact, that it is perfectly legal. How the hell does anyone mistake that for a straw purchase? That is why I questioned what the idiot heard, not necessarily what they said? Maybe his ears were full of gun powder or something, I dont know. But to NOT "get it", is simply laughable.

[TX-RAT]

13. When they filled out the form

Box 12-a
Are you the actual buyer of this firearm(s) listed on this form?

Warning; You are not the actual buyer if you a acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.

[goju]

15. They were the actual buyer of the firearm.

That is the point. They can buy it, then give it away as a gift. Nothing illegal about that. The ATF agrees with me on this.

[TX-RAT]

19. Your missing the point.

When it came to 12-a
The boys probably said they were getting it for a friend or friend of the family. If they or he had said he was getting it for himself, this wouldn't have happen. The kids were probably just being honest.
Sounds like Dad should have went to the shop instead of the kids.

[mosin]

20. That could be...

where the problem arose--it probably was--but the clerk should have been able to understand the distinction between a gift and a straw purchase.

[goju]

21. Yes

Its a matter of upholding the letter of the law, which I think the shop doesnt understand, and upholding the spirit of the law, which they were uncomfortable doing.

Ok by me. They can lose my business, Ill go to walmart for shells from now on.

[goju]

22. There isnt that option

Are you the buyer, or arent you. This was a judgement call and clearly they exercised NONE.

[mosin]

18. "on behalf of"

The key phrase is "on behalf of." If you are acting as a "buyer's agent" for the real buyer, it is a straw purchase. If you are the actual buyer of a firearm intended as a gift, then you are the actual buyer.

[Billy Ruffian]

30. Page 3, Notice 1, of the 4473 says:

"You are also the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party"

However, there could be state laws that are more restrictive.

[TX-RAT]

31. exactly

All I've been saying is for that transaction not to have went through, someone wrote "NO" in 12-a.

[TX-RAT]

14. How the hell does anyone mistake that for a straw purchase?

Sorry goju, but thats exactly what it was.

[goju]

16. Wrong

Buying a gun for a gift is NOT a straw purchase. Look it up. I went through this in the past and its NOT a straw purchase.

[mosin]

17. I'm sorry...

but you're just wrong on this point. A gift is not a straw purchase.

If my friend gave me the money to buy a gun for him, that would be a straw purchase. If I buy a gun for him as a birthday present, that is not a straw purchase.

[TX-RAT]

23. A gift is not a straw purchase.

It is if you write "NO" in 12-a.
The kids may have done this, not knowing any better. As goju said he wasn't there to hear the conversation or witness the transaction.

[goju]

25. That might have been the case, but

He didnt even finish the form. Again, the idiot overheard what they were talking about, then stopped the sale. He didnt even look at the application and in fact stopped sean from completing it.

[TX-RAT]

26. In your own words

Halfway through the paperwork.
Funny, halfway is exactly where, 12-a is located.

[goju]

28. Im fairly sure

The idiot wasnt peering over his shoulder watching him fill out the form. And Im almost positive he wouldnt answer NO to the question, this wasnt the first gun he'd bought. Again, the dipshit overheard their conversation, then came over and stopped him from completing the form.

I think you are trying to make this out to be something it is not. I wasnt there so I dont know for sure, but from what my oldest told me, they were talking about engraving and a possible inlay on the grips when the idiot physcially put his hand over the form.

Ive bought a few guns under NICS and have never had anyone stnad over my shoulder and watch me fill it out. Have you? It just doesnt sound reasonable.

[TX-RAT]

32. Listen to yourself here.

"Im fairly sure"
Im almost positive
I wasnt there
I dont know for sure
doesnt sound reasonable.

For piss sake go down there and do it yourself. Your the one trying to make this out to be something it's not.

[goju]

33. Im only being cautious in my language

Im not unsure of the truth, only the precise facts you brought up. Because I was not there, I cant be 100% certain how far along he got in the form, and how he answered the questions. Honestly, I didnt even ask him how far along he got in the form, he just said the dipshit put his hand over it and stopped him from completing it. The only reason Im using cautious language is because of the possibilities you brought up but Id bet the farm that the dipshit had no idea how he answered the questions.

I only got their reactions, which is enough for me. You are assuming they dumb kids and unfamiliar with the process I believe. Couldnt be further from the truth. He is 30 something and has been there, done that. I will talk to him tonight or tomorrow but Im quire sure what they told me was accurate.

I asked earlier, have you ever had some dipshit gun store dork look over your shoulder while you filled out the NICS? Not me.

[goju]

34. Maybe a clarification is needed

The NICS was never submitted. You keep saying that was the cause of it, but the idiot never submitted the check. I repeat, he never submitted the NICS. He stopped them before the form was complete.

[TX-RAT]

35. And if 12-a says no, then theres no need to go further.

It doesn't have to be submitted. The dealer can stop the transaction.
I just called a buddy who owns a local gun-shop. He says the only way that wouldn't have went through, was either someone answered a question on the form wrong or failed the back-ground check. Assuming all other ID was correct and he was buying in the state he resides in.
I don't know what else can be said here.

[goju]

40. Nope, he never got that far

I just talked to Sean. He said he got as far as his social security number, never got any further than that.

He said they were talking back and forth and about the engraving bullshit while he was filling out the form. There was a gal behind the counter talking with them about engraving who was the secretary, or whatever, not the one selling the gun. When adam mentioned something about "what he would want", she asked who it was for, who was paying, and basically who is making the decision. She was evidently a bit cranky anyway. (Sean attributes it to working till after 5 on a friday night, and having a humiliating job!) Adam popped off it was for his dad, but that sean was paying (ha ha ha, he's the rich one). The dipshit and the engraver lady exchanged glances and that was it. Thats when the dipshit jumped in and told him he wouldnt sell it.

Im seriously thinking of taking a drive up there when the owner is in. I dont really care now, whats done is done and he missed a huge sale. But I cant for the freakin life of me understand why he would put a couple disphits in charge of his store when they clearly dont know what they are doing. I also dont understand why he would defend the actions of said idiots, and then give me an attitude on top of it. I really do want to know what compels stupid people to continue being stupid. Fuck if I know, but I might just go find out.

[MrSandman]

42. Imagine if he were a "fugitive from Justice"nt

[Columbia]

44. Case closed

Not a straw purchase.
Clerks are dolts.
Shop elsewhere.
Period.

[slackmaster]

24. Firearms can be purchased as gifts even in California

A straw purchase is when you buy a gun as a proxy for someone else, someone who is not legally qualified to own one. Example: You are a gang-banger with a felony conviction. You give your girlfriend money to buy a gun for you. She has to lie on the paperwork on the question that says she is the actual purchaser of the gun.

Buying a gun as a gift for someone who is qualified to own one is not a straw purchase. You are the actual purchaser, you are using your own money. Perfectly legal to buy one with the intent of giving it to someone else.

[TX-RAT]

27. Here also.

But not if theres a NO in 12-a. Thats all I'm saying, the kids may have screwed up by writing NO. Nobody knows.

[slackmaster]

29. Ah, I see what you mean now

You have to be the "actual purchaser" even if it's for a gift, and if you answer NO to that one the sale is by law a no-go.

Thanks!

[MrSandman]

36. Was the 4413 signed?

If not, then why block the sale?

Should carify a bit.

[TX-RAT]

38. Sorry, whats a 4413?

did you mean 4473? Yes if 12-a on 4473 says "no" then transaction is over, no need to submit or sign.

[Wickerman]

37. Sometimes I think my entire life revolves around forms

and I gotta agree TX-Rat. You screw up box 12-A, from what I see, you screw the pooch on the deal. Unfortunate - certainly, buthey, its only the guy's BUSINESS if something goes wrong with the purchase.

[TX-RAT]

39. Thanks Wickerman, Thats all I've been trying to say.

[mosin]

10. I don't get it either

I don't know why the clerk would have been thrown by a gun being purchased as a gift. It's perfectly legal and appropriate. I have both given and received firearms as presents.

Of course, the gun shop has the right to be clueless, and you have the right to take your business elsewhere. But that's not much consolation in a special case like this.

[goju]

12. EXACTLY

I wouldnt be so disgusted by this if it werent for the time frame and the nature of the "gift". I wish I would have been there!!!!

[aikoaiko]

41. too bad.

Thats too bad. Overall it sounds like the gunshop was hasty and defensive about their actions.

Guns as gifts should be a-ok.

A more reasonable approach would have been to verify whether the gun was a gift or not by asking.

[alwynsw]

43. Apperars to be a case of CYA at all costs.

Forget about asking a question or two to discern the true intent of the purchase.

Just another example of people too lazy to do their job properly. A gun shop owner/clerk has the job of selling guns legally. Sometime that requires a bit more than shoving a pen and a 4473 at a customer.

on edit: PM me the name and location of the shop. My wife and I shop at gun shops all over the country as we travel. I guess we bout 20 or so pieces during a trip last spring. The handguns were sent to a local FFL, the long guns ostly went out the door with us. I just want to know where NOT to shop if I'm in that neck of the woods.

[MrSandman]

45. CYA or an example of the lunacy that is,

or passes for, Federal gun regulation.

I can't get the NPS to give me a straight answer on firearms on private property or state highways within administrative boundaries.

[alwynsw]

46. I understand.

Reminds me of the TSA employees that are unaware of the regs. regarding firearms on airplanes - checked baggage, of course.

[goju]

60. Yep

Thats what happens when you hire an idiot. No skin off my nose, their loss.

PM on the way.

[vpigrad]

47. Why is it that when Sara Brady...

did exactly what you describe, the NRA thugs screamed for her arrest? So, when she does it, it's a crime, but when some thug does it to buy a gun for someone else, it's not? It either is or isn't legal. You can't have it both ways.

[Wickerman]

48. What I don't understand is why this thread continues

TX-Rat answered the question long ago. No one has to like it. I am sure the gun shop owner hated it. He lost a 700$ sale because someone checked the wrong box - but that certainly appears to be what happened.

[Columbia]

49. Post 40

[Wickerman]

50. Thanks

nevermind

:hi:

[aikoaiko]

51. Was it clear what happened?

I didn't get that from the original post. Could be an overzealous gunshop owner. The gunshop owner could have (should have) explained why he was denying the purchase if it was a legitimate 12a issue. But if it were a "hunch" then saying nothing, like the story suggested, makes more sense.

[Wickerman]

52. Like the man said, read post 40

and then, follow up with my apology.

[aikoaiko]

53. Not ready to apologize yet....

... because if Sean was filling out 4473 and Sean was paying for it, but said the gun was for someone else, then that is the definition of a gift and the gun seller screwed it up by being overzealous.

Thats how I understood the story, but if I am wrong, then I do apologize.

[Wickerman]

54. Not asking you to apologize

meant follow up by reading my apology.

[Buster43]

55. Even if the gun is meant as a gift

he can still check the box that it is for himself and later then presented it as a gift. The dealer is not in any trouble. I know, I hold a dealers license. The intent is that the purchaser is using his money and not someone elses to purchase the weapon.

If someone comes up to you, hands over a bunch of cash and says go buy that gun for me, then that is a straw purchase.

The dealer is wrong in this case.

[Squatch]

56. Not wrong "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"

They acted with proper diligence.

[Buster43]

57. I am speaking on a point of law,

not the right to refuse service. And if that buyer had come to me about buying a handgun and later presenting it as a gift, I would have sold one to him.

[Squatch]

58. What you would have done is completely irrelevant.

What is germane is that the clerk in question was not comfortable with the sale and refused service. There is nothing wrong with that at all, legally, if you want to speak on a point of law.

[goju]

59. Youre right

Im not questioning whether he had a right to refuse to sell it, Im just questioning the intelligence behind the decision making. Like I said, Im sure theyve had trouble in the past if my case is any example of their understanding of the law. They probably were overly cautious and not well informed.

[rsdsharp]

61. I agree it wasn't a straw purchase, but

you may have been lucky they wouldn't complete the sale. Unless the $700 included the engraving, you were being overcharged. Only a couple of Ruger's Super Blackhawks even approach $700 as msrp, and virtually nobody charges list. What model was this, may I ask?