Just saw Bowling for Columbine

[Superfly]

Despite the fact that I said that I'd never see it, I decided to see if it was all that it was cracked up to be.

I have to admit, the first 90% of the film was fair, balanced, and a very objective look at the roots of violence in the USA.

It was only when he covered the K-Mart thingie and Charlton Heston that he lost me. What were the points there?

B

[Maple]

1. Presumably how easy it is

to buy the stuff...and so young...and in such quantities.

And that the NRA's leading spokesman needed to be queried in a movie about violence.

[Brucey]

2. Love Michael Moore, but he's no sociologist.

Pointing out how violent America is, is one thing, but answering why is quite another. Sociologists and criminologists have teased this thing apart for years (The Crime of Punishment by Menninger in the 1950s, I think - any scholars out there?), and Moore's attempt to find causes is lame.

[rosalux]

3. No Sociologist, but good start!

I agree that Moore needs more sociology in his analysis, but I think he hits on a very key issue--the US culture and social structure devalues human life (no health care, no safety net) while other societies (Canada, Western European) demonstrate that humans deserve a certain standard of living no matter who they are.
If you devalue human life, this makes violence a hell of a lot easier to justify. But Moore doesn't go far enough, he needs to say that it is free market Capitalism behind the devaluing of humans.

[demsrule4life]

5. I agree, spent many years in Germany and they do value

human life, I guess that is why abortion is not legal there.

[demsrule4life]

6. But knowing the German Govt mindset

since the German population is ageing, and the Germans arent having many kids, abortion kills off future taxpayers to pay for all the social programs.

[Kellanved]

7. sorry , but...

Abortion is legal in Germany. Strict rules apply (reason / counselor has to be asked), but the famous $218 StGB allows abortions until the 12. week: Abortion after talking to a counselor is legal.


But you are in part correct: there are generally too few children to keep the nation going.

[CO Liberal]

4. I'll Be Watching It Later This Month

It's coming to DIRECTV Pay-Per-View on September 18th.

[Lefty48197]

8. This is an excellent film

Moore really socks the NRA gun murderer apologists right in the gut. I'm surprised that they haven't jumped all over your post, like they do every other BFC post.
The film is excellent. It's vintage Moore.
The major point he tries to make, is that our country is different than others. We have a media, and a de facto racist society that breeds fear. That fear leads us to gun violence.
Moore makes the point that the guns aren't the problem, it's the people. Something that the NRA likes to say at other times, but is completely silent about with regard to Moore's film.
Moore's point about KMart was that they made it too easy for the killers. All they had to do was walk into KMart and buy the bullets for their killing spree. KMart was willing to sell to them, no questions asked. It wasn't until Moore accompanied the 17 year old shooting victims as they successfully purchased ammo at a local Michigan Kmart, that KMart realized the folly of their ways.
It was a very moving moment, when KMart announced their decision to cease sales of handgun ammo.
As for Heston, Moore took it right to Moses. President Heston felt it was ok to go to Denver, and then Flint, Michigan (after the Columbine incident, and the shooting of a first grader, by another first grader) and hold a pro-gun rally. His point was that Heston's an idiot.
Is Heston still their President?

[CO Liberal]

10. I Don't Think So

If memory serves correctly, Charleton Heston stepped down as NRA prez a while back.

[MrBenchley]

11. In fact

As the film neared release, Heston announced that he had "Alzheimer-like symptoms"....and after it came out, he retired.

[Mass_Liberal]

9. One of my favorite documentaries

of all time :bounce:

[CO Liberal]

12. I Saw It Over The Weekend

It was on DirecTV Pay Per View.

I was very impressed with it. A few section were a bit too intense for my wife - she left the room for a while after the newsreel footage of people being shot. But I thought it was very well done.

I believe the points made with the Kmart & Heston footage were as follows:

o - Private citizens CAN make faceless corporations do the right thing.

o - Chuck Heston bacame so blinded by the rights of gun owners that he could not see the rest of the world.

[MrBenchley]

13. It was an excellent film

that showed Heston for the vain unthinking boob he was....

[Fescue4u]

15. rights of gun owners...

"Chuck Heston bacame so blinded by the rights of gun owners that he could not see the rest of the world."

But that is what his job is. Taking care of the rest of the world is a pretty big job..even for moses himself.

While one may disagree with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, gun owners, the NRA and Heston himself, you cannot deny that as president of the NRA, his job IS TO DEFEND GUN OWNERS RIGHTS.

One could levy the same argument against the president of American Cancer Society...that all they are concerned with is cancer and they ignore the needs of all other ill people.

Indeed, we can say the same about Sarah Brady...She is so blinded by destroying the rights of gun owners, that she cannot see the rest of the world.

[CO Liberal]

16. WRONG!!!!!

Indeed, we can say the same about Sarah Brady...She is so blinded by destroying the rights of gun owners, that she cannot see the rest of the world.

I've seen nothing that indicates this.

[Fescue4u]

18. lets just agree to disagree on THAT one.

Frankly I hope you are right.

I truly hope that she does things other than attempt to destroy the Bill of Rights.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoeBear]

17. Moore should be proud of himself...

...he helped nudge K-Mart into bankruptcy.

[Superfly]

19. No, that was Martha Stewart

and her $30/gallon buckets of paint.

[CO Liberal]

22. Also Wrong!!!!!

As a former Kmart employee (1993 - 95), I can tell you that Kmart was heading toward bankrupcy for years. They didn't invest enough in their stores, so many of them were dirty and dingy when compared to Wal-Mart. And Wal-Mart was able to beat them pricewise.

You can't blame Michael Moore - it was mismanagement at the highest levels of the company.

[Fescue4u]

23. I agree it was mismanagement

And we got a nice little demonstration of that mismanagement when Kmart pulled a perfectly legal, profitable product off the shelves, in response to a blowhard with a camera.

[CO Liberal]

24. But How Much Did That Affect Their Bottom Line???

I'm sure ammo sales didn't even amount to a decimal point on their ledger.

[LastDemInIdaho]

25. Guns are not about money to honest Americans

Gun ownership is in our constitution. I suggest we not try to take guns out of our constitution but instead educate those that don't understand what the constitution means to honest Americans.

If you are trying to destroy our constitution you will lose.

[CO Liberal]

29. I'm Not Trying To Destroy ANYTHING

BTW, "guns" per se are not specifically called out in the Constitution - it says "arms". That could mean swords, lances, or pea shooters.......

[Fescue4u]

33. I would expect anyone who was trying to destroy the constitution

To say exactly the same thing.

Actions speak far louder than words.

Those who oppose the 2nd ammendment, oppose the entire Consititution.

[Fescue4u]

30. That was a micosm of mismanagement.

Multiply their lack of judgement across all products and you have the end result...bankrupcty.

[Lefty48197]

27. Maybe Kmart didn't like the negative publicity

that goes along with selling ammo to underage buyers and thereby aiding them in their killing spree. I can't imagine any corporation welcoming THAT kind of publicity.

[Fescue4u]

32. Closing the barn door eh?

But then again, few reasonable people would hold Kmart responsible for actions of a a couple lunatics.

[CO Liberal]

34. Kmart Did The Reasonable and Responsible Thing

IMHO.

[Fescue4u]

37. Yes I agree.

Filing bankruptcy was the most responable and reasonable choice given their history of bad mangement and fiscal irresponsibility.

[Lefty48197]

39. You're completely ignorant of the facts

again. Kmart declared bankruptcy long before Michael Moore held their feet to the fire. Of course, after they stopped selling handgun ammo, they emerged from bankruptcy protection, so I guess their decision to stop selling the bullets, saved them from bankruptcy. At least I have the timeline in the proper order.

[RoeBear]

42. Not too sure of your timeline..

...correct me if I'm wrong.
K mart started their bankruptcy in january 2002 didn't they? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1829736.stm

And announced an end to ammo sales in July 2001
http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2001/07/05/kmart.html

You could certainly say that Kmart was in trouble before Moore started in on him, but not that the bankruptcy had already started.

[Lefty48197]

38. That's a pretty gross assumption

that the Columbine killers were the ONLY criminals who used Kmart as a source for their weapons of murder. I get the feeling that there were several others before them. Of course, after Michael Moore went to Troy, that one bullet availability loophole was closed.

[Lefty48197]

26. Are you an economist?

I've read many many opinions about why Kmart sought bankruptcy protection. None of them said that the lack of bullet sales was to blame. Of course, Kmart was bankrupt long before this film came out, and Kmart has now emerged from bankruptcy.
Apparently, Moore inspired so many of us liberals to start shopping at Kmart, that they are now financially viable.

[CO Liberal]

31. I Thought the Gun Crowd Was Blaming That on Rosie O'Donnell

:-)

[Fescue4u]

14. thats pretty close to my assessment as well.

I actually enjoyed about 90%. But the remaining 10% was so contrived and obtuse, that it destroyed the larger effort.

For me it was the Heston stunt, the Kmart Stunt, and the outright lies about the little girl who was killed in Detroit (he lied about the NRA showing up 48 hours later)

Overall its a very Ironic movie..

Ironic because Moore does a good job of pointing out the hype and fear propelled by the media....by using hype and fear.

[slackmaster]

21. Don't forget the rocket stunt

Implying that launch vehicles for communications satellites had anything to do with delivery of nuclear weapons.

[Lefty48197]

28. Don't forget that bullet stunt

where Moore implied that the pieces of lead traversing human bodies and destroying the vital organs within had anything to do with those people's deaths.

[Fescue4u]

35. Moore is pretty weak if he has to imply THAT (lol)

Surely you don't suggest that Moore made an entire movie, only to -suggest- that flying bullets are deadly?

I think most of us figured that one out a long time ago

[Fescue4u]

36. The rocket inaccuracy would be forgiveable

If it were isolated.

Even the most highly financed blockbuster always have bloopers.

But in this case, the rocket incident was yet another item among of litany of "errors".

"errors" that strangly always found themselves on the anti-rights side.

[Lefty48197]

40. Those so-called 'errors'

pretty much only exist in the minds of the paranoid NRA members.

[MrBenchley]

41. Shhhhhhh....

If you keep that up, we'd have to pay attention to what Moore actually SAID