I'm going to buy a gun.

[crispini]

I'm a total noob, so I'd like some recommendations. It's for personal protection at home. I don't plan to carry it, although I might. Realistically, it will probably sit in a ... gun safe, is that the right term, those locked boxes used for guns? But having it would make me feel better. I've been wanting one ever since mAnn Coulter made that remark about coming after liberals with baseball bats, and I think it's time. Do you folks have some recommendations on what I should look for, how I should choose a reputable dealer who won't rip me off, how I should actually choose a gun, and how much I should expect to spend?

Thanks much in advance! :hi:

[7th_Sephiroth]

1. for a hand gun

cant go wrong with an M1911A1, tho they can get expensive, a glock or a browning will be less expensive, go with .45 cal

For A rifle get an AK47 clone, a dragonov or something

For a shotgun get a Remmington 500

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. And yuo forgot,

Learn to use it, learn to use, learn to use it

Practice, practice practice

And depends on your frame, a 45 is good, but has kick, 9mm ammo is abundant but they go through walls, so find some on ballistic performance and try before you buy

[7th_Sephiroth]

33. i dont like 9mm ammo

it under penetrates, its more likely to cause a long suffering death through infection on edit, this is my handgun of choice, its expensive tho

[Deep13]

67. 9mm criticisms

Yeah, I've heard that too, but I think it is overstated. With the advent of high-powered handgun ammunition, a lot of the old loads have fallen out of favor. Sure, a .357 has more stopping power than a 9mm, but the fact is you can kill someone with a 0.22. Anytime someone is hit with a lead pellet travelling faster than sound, it will cause some serious damage. Look at the 0.38 Sp. That is considered a pretty unimpressive load, yet for a long time it was standard issue for police revolvers. Don't forget, jacketed 9mm is the cartidge for the famous German Luger and for the Uzi submachine gun.

I like 9mm because it is the most common handgun ammunition in the world and can be had pretty cheap.

[aikoaiko]

74. 9mm is fine, but if you can shoot as well with bigger, then go for it.

9mmm, however, is one of the best bargains in defensive handgun ammo.

[sir pball]

75. Realistically...

If you're going with an automatic, you don't need anything more than a 9mm. Good +P ammo packs about 450 ft-lbs at the muzzle, compared to 360 for a .45 and about 380 for a 10mm Med-Vel (recommended over full-power for defense); with 9mm you have the capability of 15+1 rounds in the gun whereas a 45 only packs 7+1 (unless you get a 12+1 HK Mark 23 Mod 0 "SOCOM", but a $2500+ pistol is probably a little out of the range of this dicussion).

They're all excellent manstoppers; the controversial Marshall and Sanow studies put them all at 87-92% one-shot-stop, but practically a 9mm is probably your best choice for an autoloader. Myself, I like a 357 Mag wheelgun, can't argue with 583 ft-lbs and a 96% stop rate. Plus you get that classic retro look...

Course, if you're just looking for home defense and not to carry, as others have pointed out you absolutely cannot beat a 12ga pump shotgun with 00 buckshot. Cheap, reliable and incredibly effective.

ref: http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

[Billy Ruffian]

76. if it's a .45 you're thinking of ...

Para-Ordnance has several double stack .45 pistols. I use a Para-Ordnance P-12. Twelve round magazine of .45ACP.

Full size Paras have 14 rounds of .45 ;-)

[sir pball]

77. How big are your hands?

Yeah...I knew there are some doublestack 45s out there, but I don't even want to imagine how thick those grips must be...I'd probably still go with a 9mm +P or +P+. Course, I hear 45 +P ammo is pretty heavy-hitting too...

[Billy Ruffian]

78. Not that big, IMO

I generally use a medium large glove for golf, large for warmth gloves.

9" from tip to tip of outspread hand.

Can just barely pick up a regulation size 5 soccer ball if the surface isn't slick.

IMO, if you can hold a double stack 9mm, you can probably hold a double stack .45

I've always been partial to the .45. Few 9mm rounds will expand to the diameter I'm starting out with

B-)

[DS1]

2. If you have the money

Excellent quality, reliability, trigger action and the spring leads to an almost perfect double-tap from center mass to headshot if you so choose to let it.

It's an H+K USP .45, also available in .40 and 9mm

Of course, someone will come along and jump all over this idea :shrug:

[Worst Username Ever]

6. I have the USP .40, love it.

[slackmaster]

3. If you want a handgun, a six-shot .38 Special revolver is a good choice

Powerful enough to stop an attacker if you are unfortunate enough to have to shoot, yet not overpowered for an inexperienced shooter. Smith and Wesson, Colt, Taurus, etc. all have made good ones. (You'll save some money if you buy a gently used one BTW.)

If you have an indoor range facility in your area, become a member and try several different guns before you buy. Better still, take a basic handgun course so you learn how to handle one safely.

[crispini]

7. Trying it sounds reasonable.

I'm sure there's some kind of indoor range in my area -- I live in Texas. ;) Are they usually attached to gun shops? Because you said, try different guns before you buy? (I really am a complete and total neophyte.)

[derby378]

13. Targetmaster in Garland

I've tested an Uzi there. Great gun, solid construction and good accuracy. Now that the assault weapon ban is kaput, it's up for grabs again. But it's still fairly expensive (even as a semi-auto).

[crispini]

20. Hey, hi derby!

:hi: Thanks for the tip, I can swing by there sometime quite easily.

[Ready4Change]

30. Take training before buying.

Perhaps at multiple locations. This serves multiple purposes.

The first, and most important, is that you'll learn how to properly handle a firearm before you bring it into you home. This is critical.

Second, it gives you a chance to check out your potential gun seller(s). People are different, and you'll become better informed if you can find someone who thinks like you do, or at least come approach things from your direction when needed.

Lastly, it will give you a chance to try several different makes in different calibers, and get expert advise on what will suit your abilities and needs.

Be safe.

[turnkey]

45. I trained both my wife & daughter...

On the venerable Smith & Wesson model 10. This is a K Frame .38, and excellent for home defense. Training is the key...find a good shooting range in your area, and a qualified instructor.

[MichaelHarris]

4. only one way to go

12 gauge. Best for home protection, handguns just get you in trouble and most people don't really need them. I'm not against them in any way it's just which would you rather have a a dark hallway? little bullets flying everywhere or taking out the entire hallway. Now i know you really want that handgun but it's useless for home protection, wanna see a bad guy run? Chamber a round in a 12 gauge.

[derby378]

10. Mossberg 590 military shotgun

12-gauge, and you can mount a bayonet on it. Should make most angry FReepers wet themselves.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotgun_mossberg590.php

[MichaelHarris]

25. As DS1 said yesterday in relation to bayonets

Happy Stabbin'

[crispini]

11. Silly question -- they are long guns, right, shotguns?

Would I have to buy one of those really big gun safes or are there other ways to keep them safely locked up but easily accessible?

[derby378]

16. Long, but usually not ridiculously long

Short-barrelled shotguns are regulated the same as machine guns, so I don't think you'll have to worry about buying one too short.

[iverglas]

72. hahaha, that's funny

Silly question -- they are long guns, right, shotguns?
Long, but usually not ridiculously long

Even *moi* knows that "long gun" is a term of art!



hahaha ... get it? ... long arms ... hahaha.

[MichaelHarris]

24. put a trigger lock on it

or teach everyone in the house about gun safety. Gun locks kind of get in the way when someone is crawling in the window.

[Van23]

66. A lot of different opinions...

but I wouldn't consider a long gun unless you live way out in the boondocks. The energy produced by a long gun is much greater than a handgun and could be potentially dangerous in a densely populated area. I'd stick with a .38 snubby or a 9MM if you live in a city or an apartment complex.


www.liberalswithguns.com

[mongo]

19. Yep. and get one with the shortest legal barrel

Makes it easier to use in the house.

Bird shot is non-lethal if not at point blank range either. I keep a cheap .380 at the bedside, but when I lived in more dangerous areas I kept my mossberg 500 close by. Much easier to hit your target, especially since I haven't shot in 20 years.

[flamin lib]

32. Second the motion for

a 12 gauge. Preferably a pump action cut to the minimum legal length and a pistol grip. The sound of racking a round into the chamber is a noise that even babies in the womb recognize. The next sound you may hear is the sound of breaking glass as the intruder dives headlong out a window. Use light load, say #6 or #7 shot--00 buck is 38 caliber and goes through walls--might shoot your neighbor.

Get your head in a place where there is no doubt that you'll shoot first and let God sort out the details. Otherwise, like 80% of the time, they will take your gun away from you and kill you with it. Wounding doesn't work--just makes 'em mad.

Just remember that the aftermath of any shooting isn't very pretty. Many police officers who have to use deadly force suffer PTSD and the divorce rate in those cases is astronomical. I had a passing exposure to such things and no longer have firearms in my home.

My best advice is spend the money on a security system--keep 'em out instead of dealing with them inside.

[cms]

51. Incase you're wondering, 18" is the min. length for a shotgun...

It's 16" for a rifle. As stated before, look into a 12ga. Mossberg 590 9-shot. Its short enough for home defense, you don't have to carry around any extra ammo, and if the shit ever hits the fan, you won't miss. In my experience the best size shot for indoor use without overpenetration is #4 buckshot.

[Ian David]

8. Advice for when you apply for a permit

1) Join a sport shooting and/or hunting club FIRST
2) Take the safety course FIRST
3) When you apply for the permit, do NOT say you want it for PROTECTION. ONLY say you want it for target shooting and/or hunting.


4) I've been told that you should apply for the highest level of licensing available. For example, if you really only want pistols and rifles, apply for concealed carry and assault weapon licenses. They can always downgrade you to a level lower than what you applied for.

Double-check #4, since it may vary from state to state.

Oh, and in some states you don't need a license for crossbows and "black powder weapons." In other words, in some states you can buy a musket without a license.

[MichaelHarris]

28. I have muskets and

I love um. Not really good for home protection unless the burglar is willing to wait while you load it though.

[PaganPreacher]

64. What goes, "BOOM, clippity clop, clippity clop, BOOM"?

An Amish drive-by shooting!

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[benEzra]

47. I don't think licensing is required for purchase in TX...

though a background check will be performed at point of sale.

[TyObe]

54. He lives in TX...

All he needs to do is fill out the yellow form. There's no "license" involved.

Ty

[cms]

9. Well...

Congrats on your decision. You won't be disappointed, just make sure you know all of your local laws.

I'd imagine that you're talking about a pistol since you mentioned carrying, but if you're only using it for home defense, I'd say get yourself a shotgun. Mossberg 590 9-shot would be perfect...maybe mount a flashlight. They run in the $350-$400 range and are a deal for the money.

If you're talking about a handgun, it all depends on how much money you have to spend. How much do you plan on spending if you don't mind me asking? High-end, I'd go with a HK USP or USP 2000 in .45acp. If you want middle-priced, go with a Glock 19. I wouldn't try any low end handguns (hi-point, davis, ...) unless it is just for plinking. If you are trusting your life with it, get a good gun.

Once you find the gun you want, compare it to prices online. If it is close, go ahead and get it. If it's high, try to bargain or move on to another dealer.

[cms]

12. Wow...by the time I ...

saw the post and typed a reply you guys already had 2 suggestions for USP's. HK makes great handguns and even better rifles.

[crispini]

17. Re: money -- I'm not sure, really.

I haven't done any research yet, so I don't know how much I *should* expect to spend. I can always wait a little bit and save up. I really think it's better to wait and spend more and buy something quality and durable, rather than get something cheap that will have to be replaced. OTOH, I'm not looking to throw away my money, either, and I'm not really looking for a new hobby... I already have plenty of those.

[benEzra]

48. Depends on what gun you choose,

but you can get a really good firearm for $200 to $500 (depending on the type). A Taurus revolver will be cheaper than a Smith & Wesson, for example.

[Ian David]

21. My first time firing a handgun was on a rental at a gun club

I forget what it was I rented, but it was pretty small.

But a friend of mine let me fire a couple of his guns. One was a .9mm and the other was a big-ass Magnum.

I was scared to death to fire the thing, because of things I'd seen in movies and heard about. I expected the thing to blast out of my hand.

Now, I'm not a big guy, and I wasn't experienced with handguns, but I had no problem handling the recoil or keeping control of the weapon.

One thing I noticed with the bigger guns, though-- You NEED the eye protection. It could have just been that particular gun or the ammunition, but debris was constantly hitting the safety glasses.

Anyway, I wouldn't automatically dismiss the idea of a large caliber without at least trying it first.

[Vektor]

14. In case you can't tell...

...I'm partial to the Vektor:
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Auto-Pistols/Vektor_CP1.htm
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg30-e.htm

The CP1 is a beauty. How much you want to spend and where to get one? The best place, IMHO to seek info, look over the merchandise, and see reputable dealers, is a gun show...

However, you will be surrounded by a MILLION rednecks.

And they all have this weird belief that liberals are pissed off if people buy guns, which is funny. One man I met had a booth and a sign that said "buy a gun, piss off a liberal."

I couldn't resist. I approached his booth and said..."What's that all about?" and He explained that "Liberals hate guns."

I said "Really? I'm a Liberal. How would you feel if I wanted to buy one?"

He looked at me out of the corner of his eye and said "You're a liberal? And a woman..obviously. And you want a gun? Now THAT scares me!"

He was a good ol' boy, and fairly sexist, but it was pretty funny.

Many good ol' boys stepped forward to offer me a date at the shooting range - In case I needed to learn to "handle that thing."

HAHAHA.

I let them know I had it covered.

[crispini]

22. LOL, too funny.

I might have to go to a gun show just to check out the scene. :P

[Vektor]

31. Oh it's a scene alright....

..the funniest thing is, Republican gun owners all have this paranoid belief that "Liberals" want to come and take their guns away, destroy the 2nd amendment, and tromp on their rights. This is of course a phony stereotype perpetuated by special interest groups to scare people into donating all their money to them, and to Republican politicians to "protect their gun rights." You've gotta keep people scared. It makes them pay up. Politically neutral people who are not in fear do not pay big money to political campaigns. But those who think their rights will be stripped away by the "evil Liberals" sure do.

It's very clever really.

I picked up an NRA magazine, one day, thinking it might actually be about firearms. The whole damn thing was a propaganda rag about how John Kerry and Michael Moore want to come and take your guns away!! I laughed my ass off. As a liberal firearms enthusiast, who has never ONCE feared that John Kerry was going to come to my house and try to take my weapons (though I have hoped....meeeowwww :9) I just laughed my ass off. I looked at my Republican uncle, whose magazine it was and said "Do you actually think these guys give two shits about your guns?!?!!?" He looked perplexed.

I said, "You know I have guns. Do I look scared? That I am going to lose them? Come on. For a big burly redneck, you sure are a scaredy cat."

He laughed.

So yeah, check out a gun show. Quite a scene.

[DS1]

34. Heh, yeah, I've been invited to go 'shootin' with some good old boys

at various bars in my time, cause "I ain't shooting if I never gone shooting with Bob, you tell em Bob sent ya, they treat ya good!"

[Vektor]

46. I'll tell em!!

How funny! Good ol' boys....they're a hoot alright!

[Redneck Socialist]

15. Some shooting ranges will let you "rent" guns so you can try

before you buy. This site http://www.wheretoshoot.org/ might help you find one of those ranges near you. And while the NRA gets a bad rap around here (and rightfully so) it does sponsor many instruction and safety classes. I would highly recommend taking a class before you buy.

Go here http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/find.asp to find a training class in your area.

Have fun. I like Sigs but the most important thing is to find a gun that fits your hand. What works for me won't necessarily work for you. That is why I recommend try before you buy.

[Justyce]

18. My opinion...

I used to have an automatic handgun, actually had a .22 and a .25. I always figured I could flick the safety off & pop a bullet in the chamber pretty fast should I ever need to... well, after being carjacked, I realized it isn't very feasible. I now own a .38 revolver -- they have several different sizes/lengths of them - mine is pretty small. I feel a lot better knowing all I would have to do if worse came to worse is pull the trigger, not to mention the worry I had of not cocking the automatic just right which of course would slow you down even more, and if you are being attacked, every split second of reaction time is precious.

[Romulus]

23. *FIRST* take a basic handgun/firearms class

before you even THINK about buying a firearm.

The decision to bring a firearm into your home is NO JOKE, and you need to make it an informed decision. The gun shops will be able to point you to a class in your area. BE SURE the class instructor is NRA certified, or (even better) take the actual "NRA Basic Pistol" class - their politics may suck, but they have the firearms instruction program down to a science

[crispini]

26. Will do, class first!

That sounds quite reasonable.

[iverglas]

27. missed it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x95935

[crispini]

29. Oops, sorry.

Well, the mods can move it I guess. Wouldn't be the first time. :P

Thanks all! :hi:

[RamboLiberal]

35. Crispini - I see from your profile you're female

So am I. So from a female gun owners perspective.

If you want a handgun - go to a range that rents and try them out. Then get what you shoot well with.

From a personal perspective I like Glocks because they are reliable (I've never had a failure with the two I own with good ammo) and because they have a consistent trigger pull that is very comfortable.

The heavier the trigger pull the more chance you'll jerk a shot off the target, especially under stress.

Many semi-autos have what is known as first shot double-action, remaining shots single-action. That's a safety feature. But Glock has what is known as a safe-action trigger. Same trigger pull every shot.

Most revolvers have a heavier trigger pull than semi-autos.

Personally while I'd love to have a 1911A1 for target shooting, I've seen too many failures on the range that I'd personally want to rely on one. Also 1911's are prone to jamming if you limp-wrist them.

But again - pick what you shoot well. And don't listen to the men in the gun shops-a lot of them give bad advice to women!

Prices - you're probably looking at $300-$700 + depending on what you select. And I'd recommend getting night sights installed - they have an insert that glows in the dark.

I'd get a concealed carry license if I were you. I have one in PA. I like the idea I can carry my handgun concealed when I'm out alone in my car at night.

I believe in TX you have to take a Proficiency course to get a license. This course should also give you a good introduction to safe gun handling.

This site covers Carry Laws in all states. http://www.packing.org/

BTW all new handguns now come with trigger locks. I wouldn't use one unless you have kids. If you're going to leave the gun in the house when you're not there, then a safe is a good idea.

For the home a shotgun is a good idea.

Practice at least once a month on the range. Not a bad idea to find a trainer you're comfortable with and take a course on using for self-defense.

Feel free to PM me or ask any other questions. Hope we all here helped.

[Peak_Oil]

36. For the female

What you buy depends on a few things.

1. Are you in an attached housing unit, a standalone house in a city neighborhood, or in a rural area?

If attached housing, please consider a smaller shotgun, such as a 16 gauge or a 20 gauge. When you fire your weapon in your home, your neighbors may be home, and you can hurt somebody you don't intend to hurt. A 16 or 20 gauge shotgun still packs a f#&k of a whallop, much more than any handgun out there is going to give you. Even the lowly 410 shotgun, the smallest of the bunch, will hit harder than two shots from a .357 magnum.

Standalone house -- If you decide to go with a handgun, consider where the bullet will go if/when a bullet penetrates the outside of your house. Next door neighbor's house? Old folk's home across the street? Busy intersection outside? If you think a bullet might penetrate the outside of your house, you might want to think about the shotgun again. Maybe the 12-gauge will be fine in this situation.

Rural house -- Pistols are fine, shotguns are fine, rifles will fire a bullet that can travel a mile or two.

2. Recoil

How much can you handle? Head to the range and shoot lots of different guns. Imagine that you need to squeeze off three or four shots fairly quickly. An attacker can close a 20' distance to you in less than two seconds. You are going to want to train until you can hit a man-sized target twice in two seconds.

3. Tactics

Probably the best tactic I've heard was a guy who said, Stay in your bedroom with the door closed. (unless you've got other people in the house to protect) Yell out in a clear voice, "Get out of my house! I have a shotgun!" Then rack it to put a live round in the chamber and take off the safety. Stay put with the shotgun aimed at the door. Get behind a dresser or whatever you may have that would stop a bullet. Wait for the burglar/rapist/FedEx guy/drunk who wandered to the wrong house to leave the house without shooting anyone, and call the cops. Buy a new TV the next day. It's cheaper than getting the blood out of your carpet, and you'll get to sleep that night.

But if that door swings open, fire until you have neutralized the attack.

[iverglas]

40. "the female" ... dog? cannabis plant? plug? ... n/t

[Township75]

37. Let me add one thing about classes,or renting a gun...

you will likely have the opportunity to shoot a gun at the class even if you do not own one. YOU WANT EAR PROTECTION! Guns are way, way, WAY louder than what you hear on TV or in the movies. You will likely not be able to fire a gun comfortably if your ears are not protected.

You can buy inexpensive ear protection at any hardware store, or even drug store. Get this if you intend on shooting a gun.

As the others said, CLASS FIRST, try out the guns 2nd, buy 3rd

[jody]

38. As others have said, a .38 Special revolver is best and suggest a

hammerless version with either 5 or 6 shot capacity.

As others replied, a local law enforcement unit will offer a handgun course and you should take that. You should also plan on visiting a range at least every few months to maintain your skills.

Good luck because you are your first and often the last line of defense.

[hollowdweller]

39. For personal defense it's a LOT easier to hit something with a shotgun

than a pistol. In fact if you aren't going to practice fairly often a pistol is pretty useless except to intimidate or at very close range.
I'd suggest you buy a .22 rifle or pistol and get into target shooting. If you don't think you will like practicing get a shotgun with #4 or bigger buckshot.

[benEzra]

53. Or a pistol-caliber carbine...

like the Hi-Point 9mm (or upmarket, a Ruger PC9).

One thing about shotguns (especially 12-gauge) is that the recoil is punishing for many new shooters. After all, we're talking about a .73 caliber firearm with 2000 to 3000 ft-lb of muzzle energy, that can fire eight 9mm projectiles at ONCE...

[alwynsw]

41. I'm old school

If you can afford it, go with the .45 ACP in 1911 or a clone. Some of the clones can be had new for about $300.00 in my area. It's fat, relatively slow, and will stop darn near anything without excessive penetraion of walls, etc. if you miss your target.

[Billy Ruffian]

42. There is some good advice here

but a bunch of bad advice, too.

Romulus, RamboLiberal, Township75 and a few others that have suggested trying out several different guns before you buy are right. Hearing and eye protection are a must, and should be available for rent at any commercial range. If you have a friend take you to a private range, they should be able to give you earplugs and safety glasses.

IMO, there is no one 'best' gun for personal protection. Shotguns have some advantages but they also have disadvantages. Same thing for handguns. What is most important is what you're comfortable with.

One approach that has worked well for some is to start out by using a .22 pistol. Light recoil, lower noise. Don't buy one of these for self-defense, though, just rent them at a range as you get used to shooting. Then, you can move up to larger calibers.

I've always been a fan of semi-autos, and my own choice is what's been recommended here, the 1911 style, in .45 (there are lots. Springfield, Kimber, Colt, Para-Ordnance, I think even Smith & Wesson and Sig/Sauer now make .45s in this style.) It may be right for you, it may not. I would be surprised if a neophyte found this pistol to be appealing when starting out. You might prefer a Glock, or Smith & Wesson 99, or a revolver instead.

Generally, you want the largest caliber that you are comfortable with. If you get a revolver, a .357 Magnum can use .38 Special ammunition for practice, and it's fine to use .38 Special +P for a self defense round.

Before you buy, once you've narrowed it down to a couple of choices, post here, and there are lots of folks that can help tell you if the price is reasonable, etc.

See if any ranges near you have ladies night, or ladies only classes. If you know anyone at work that has handguns, ask them. There might be a firearms safety class at your community college.

Finally, for securing it, there are lots of options. There are boxes that lock, and open with a keypad (mechanical, or electric ... I prefer mechanical. There are trigger locks, locks that go through the action of the pistol, and there is one that wraps all around the pistol, preventing access to the trigger or hammer. I can't remember the name of that one offhand.

Feel free to send a PM if you have any questions.

[7th_Sephiroth]

44. also ammunition is something to consider

for a handgun or smaller rifle, hollow point ammunition is the best for self defense, the hollowpoint breaks apart when it hits solid mass and thus has less chance of overpenetration and taking out the television/child/window behind your target.

stay away from rifles that fire 5.56 or 7.62 FMJ rounds because they WAAAAY overpenetrate and can take out a guy at over a mile.

For shotguns buckshot is OK but there will be collateral damage, Bird or game shot should be avoided unless you want to go quale hunting, Rifled slugs are the perferred ammunition for home defense, it is a single piece of shot, it delivers more kick because less energy escapes before the round leaves the barrel.

Over Penertation, under penetration and you.

overpenetration commonly occurs in the larger caliber bullets and is caused by the aerodynamics of the bullet and the ammound of powder put in the cartridge. On every Box of ammunition is printed the Feet Per Second the average fired round travels, super sonic rounds (1200 fps+) have the highest rate of over penetration.

Under penetration can be far worse than over penetration take the .22 pistol round, Ronald Regan was shot with a .22 round and because of the weakness of the shot, the bullet lodged in his body and could have led to an infection, it creates a horrendous pain you wouldent wish on anybody, trust me. same goed for 9mm rounds the small ammount of powder plus the size of the bullet can lead to the creation of a cavity in the body where the lead can rest, slowly poisioning the body from the inside out.

The right weapon for you.

The right weapon is essential for your safety as well as effectiveness, you want a kill. if you have a heavy body frame and capable of manuvering swiftly, a shotgun will serve you well, reloading is a pain, but some of the higher end shotguns can accept detachable magazines. if you are a small person, the recoil of the shotgun can knock you on your ass. a .38 handgun is the best rounded for home defence, but a .45 is more effective. Stay away from .50AE fireing weapons unless you are used to fireing a shotgun and a .45, i broke my arm once holding a desert eagle wrong. Just stay away from rifles for home defense

Revolver/semi auto pro's and cons

Revolver pro's: less suspectable to jamming
Cons: The cylendar can be stopped in its motion by grabbing it, reloading can be a pain

Semi-auto pro's The magazine system is easier and quicker on the reload, the weight is usually less
Cons: the slide CAN bite you if your not carefull, and they can jam if your not carefull

i hope i have been a help

[benEzra]

49. Depends on the ammunition used...

JHP's in .223 (5.56x45) penetrate less than 9mm JHP because the little .223 bullet is more fragile.

[cms]

50. Ya beat me to it..

I was just going to say that. My AR is in the safe in the closet next to the bed. Something goes bump in the night I'll be investigating. 5.56 won't overpenetrate in a house unless you use standard military ball ammo. With Hornady TAP or an equivalant, you'll be fine.

[benEzra]

56. Yup.

The mini-14's magazine here is currently loaded with Federal 40-grain JHP and Hornady 40-grain VMAX. Both only penetrate about half as much as 115-grain 9mm FMJ.

[Billy Ruffian]

43. secure storage of firearms

here's one option:

http://www.mogulco.com/lifejacket/intro.html

[Buster43]

52. Everybody

here has their personal favorite. Mine is the Walther PPK/S .380 caliber. That gun is packed with features. It has a loaded chamber indicator, decocker and is the easiest of them all for disassembling for cleaning. Plus that is the gun that James Bond 007 uses. So you can go around saying My name is Bond, James Bond.

Currently Smith & Wesson make them under license from Walther. That gun has been under continuous manufacture since the early 1930's.

[benEzra]

55. Bersa makes a good .380 PPK clone

that is a lot cheaper.

Note--all PPKs and clones are drop-safe with the safety in the ON position. They should not be kept chamber-loaded with the safety OFF, as they are not drop-safe in that condition.

[turnkey]

57. Along this line

A Makarov is also a inexpensive quality choice.

[Krinkov]

58. definitely shotgun

They are more intimidating and better for close quarters. And missing is nowhere near as much an issue as with a handgun (that is a major concern in a dark house!)

A flash light is a useful attachment, as it can save you fumbling with lightswitches and can blind an invader (but will draw fire from someone armed)

ABOVE ALL ELSE TAKE A SAFETY COURSE FIRST!

if you go with a handgun, there are very good safes that allow you to keep a gun locked and loaded by the bed, and open with a simple push button code.

[Billy Ruffian]

59. shotguns have an undeserved reputation

the width of the pattern for most shot shells, at distances encountered inside a house, is about 4-8 inches. That's not exactly the 'room-clearing' spread that many think a shotgun has.

Shotguns do have advantages over handguns, but have disadvantages as well. It's easier to move through the house with a handgun, and it's harder to have a handgun wrested away from you if you let the attacker in close.

There is no one perfect firearm. It all depends upon the individual circumstances.

Having the Indiglo type nightlights at spots in the house can also help with the night vision issue.

[Krinkov]

60. i'd rather have 4-8 inches...

than just 9 millimeters..

[Billy Ruffian]

61. I'm not claiming that a shotgun pattern

is not greater than the width of a single bullet, simply that a shotgun is not a 'no aim' hit anything in a room magic wand as it is so often portrayed. Shotguns and handguns each have their own advantages and disadvantages. That's the point.

[sir pball]

73. Shotguns aren't nearly "no aim"

An unchoked 12ga spreads out about 1" for every yard of range - so at 18', the distance across a very large room, you only have about a 6" pattern. The real advantage to a shotgun (12ga 00 buck) lies in the fact that in that 6" circle, you have the equivalent of NINE .357 Magnum rounds - a shotgun is the most effective short-range manstopper ever invented. Period.

Here's an excellent article about what gun/ammo to choose for home defense:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

[bixente]

62. my advice

don't get a gun, just get some pepper spray, it's the non-violent option.

:D

[benEzra]

63. They're not mutually exclusive...

a gun is ONLY for situations that are beyond being handled by pepper spray. And it's dangerous to use a pepper spray indoors; you are as likely to be incapacitated as the attacker (more so if he is younger/in better physical condition than you).

If you use a gun in a situation in which you are not in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm at the hands of a violent attacker, you will go to prison, probably for 2nd-degree murder. Self-defense laws are very clear and very strict about that.

BTW, I would highly recommend that any gun owner also own a good quality pepper spray (best is probably the Fox Labs brand of law-enforcement-grade sprays, in a medium fogger format). Beware department-store sprays; many aren't all that potent and pattern like a water pistol...

[Van23]

65. I agree!!

I'm glad you're going to buy a gun. I think it's important that liberals become adept with gun handling.

I'm partial to the 10MM and the Glock 29. However, if you're just planning to use the gun for home protection, you might want to check out a .38 Special loaded with frangible ammo--such as Magsafe. Frangible ammo is fast with relatively light recoil. It also is a lot safer because the rounds break up upon impact and won't penetrate apartment or house walls. (Devestating for the person who gets shot, however!) Taurus makes some good, reasonably priced handguns. For something basic, expect to pay about $300 for a solid new gun like a snubby revolver.


www.liberalswithguns.com

[Deep13]

68. bought one just after the election

I was afraid that some of the wackos in this mostly red county might try something, especially since they are all pretty well armed.

Before you decide on conceal and carry, check with its limitations to see if it is really practical. In Ohio, for example, there are so many places where one is not allowed to conceal and carry (even with a valid permit) that it becomes impractical. If c-and-c is the way you want to go, you are limited to handguns.

Try them out and find one that is comfortable for your hand. Any of the well-known brands will do well. The Walther PPK (the James Bond gun) is a smallish model chambered either for the 0.380 ACP or 0.320 ACP. Rugers are a little larger but are essentially indestructable and are not too finicky on ammo. For revolvers, Taurus has some compact 5-shot models for 9mm, 0.45 ACP and 0.357. (That's pretty unusual since most bullets are usually just for either revolver or automatic. 9mm & 0.45 ACP are automatic loads).

I am not a big handgun fan. Except for being portable and concealable, rifles are always better. I bought a 9mm Ruger at a gun show a couple months ago. It works and everything, but its accuracy is crap compared to even a modest rifle. At 50 ft., I can put 0.22 rounds inside a 3" circle every time with rifle (no scope). At 25 ft., I am lucky to get them within a 6" radius with the pistol.

The ultimate in home defense is, of course, the 12-gauge shotgun. You are almost guaranteed to stop an assailant with single hit. Lever action or reliable automatic carbines (short rifles) are another option with far more stopping power than most hand guns and offer quick follow-up shots if you miss. A 0.223 Rem. rifle bullet travels so much faster than any pistol round and is, therefore, far more effective. Plus, in the event of a lynch mob coming to hang all the god-hating, unamerican, liberal fags, a carbine will give you some range to take out assailants before they get in your house.

I am thinking of selling the pistol and getting a new model Mini 14 or Mini 30 (Ruger). I understand the manufacturer has reworked the entire machining process. This should address some of the accuracy concerns that have been voiced about the Mini-14 in the past. It is smaller, lighter and cheaper than an M-16 clone and nearly indestructable.

[iverglas]

69. so humour me

bought one just after the election
I was afraid that some of the wackos in this mostly red county might try something, especially since they are all pretty well armed.

What might this be, that they "might try"?

What was there about the election ... which they won ... that would make you think they might try it now?

What is there about any of this that would make you think it wise/necessary to have a firearm? And what might you be thinking you might do with it?

Just curious.

[Deep13]

70. What might this be, that they "might try"?

Crystal Night.

Election day made me realize just how far gone this country really is and just how fucked up the thinking of the average American has become. We have been drifting to the right for 30 years and there is no end in sight. Every wing-nut in this county is armed to the teeth. They have been concinced by the NRA, their churches and by right-wing media that Democrats are out to destroy this country. These are the same kind of people from which the NAZIs recruited the SA in the 1920s. How much longer before liberals and atheists are declared a national security threat to be rounded up and put into camps? Anyway, the original poster on this thread stated it clear enough. Liberals ought to be beaten with bats, according to Mann Coulter! I am not waiting for the Neocons and their religious allies to come pounding on my door before I start preparing. I'm no Christian and I am not turning the other cheek.

[Deep13]

71. post script

A few more points:

revolvers vs. automatic pistols:
Revolvers have a few advantages over automatics:
1. they never jam and a misfire can easily be bypassed by going on to the next chamber. An automatic may have an ejection error and require some attention to clear. Still once you know which loads are reliable in your pistol, jamming should not be a problem. Remember, most cops and soldiers carry automatics.
2. many of the most powerful cartriges seem to be for revolvers (0.357 mag., 44 mag., 454 Cas.)
3. they are ambidextrous whereas auto pistols are specifically for left or right hands.
4. they are not finicky since there is no chance for a misfeed. Auto. users know from practice which ammunition is reliable and poor ammo. can misfeed or fail to eject.

The advantages of automatics are numerous.
1. They are mechanically simple and can usually be serviced by the owner. If you drop a revolver, you had better have a gunsmith check it out before shooting it again. It may have become misaligned and will require professional attention.
2. Automatics are easily reloaded and carry high capacity magazines, anywhere from 8 to 16 shots per clip. (Some states limit this to 10 or fewer shots.) Of course it is unlikely that you would need more than one or two unless there are multiple assailants. On the other hand, the user needs to make sure that the ejection port is unobstructed for proper operation. For centerfire revolvers you are limited to five or six shots and they are time consuming to reload.
3. Autos. are physically smaller than revolvers and lighter. There is no cylinder bulge and autos. are often made of light material whereas revolvers are almost always steel.
4. Autos. absorb some of the recoil in their slide actions. This helps the user control that muzzle jump. Revolvers rely on their weight if anything to absorb recoil.
5. Autos. have safeties or decockers. Revolvers must be holstered when not in use to prevent accidental discharge.
6. Firing chambers are further back on autos. than revolvers so the same length gun can have a longer barrel. This translates into increased accuracy for a particular over-all length.

Frangible ammunition supposedly exists for rifles that will not penetrate walls.

Shotguns are no easier to aim than anything else.

In the unfortunate event that it is necessary to use a gun in self defense, your object is to STOP the assailant, NOT to kill him. A disabled but living burglar is no longer a threat. On the other hand a burglar who dies an hour after murdering you for shooting him will not do you any good. You are only allowed to use lethal force (a gun is always lethal force) if you are in REASONABLE fear or apprehension for your LIFE or of those under your care. You should always retreat from danger if it is a safe option. (There is never a duty to retreat from your residence.) You may NOT use lethal force to repel a nonlethal (apparently unarmed) assault. Of course you are under no duty to presume that a burglar or robber is unarmed. You may NOT use lethal force to protect your home or property. Do NOT produce a firearm unless you intend to shoot. The assailant's knowledge of it will immediately escalate any situation by raising the stakes. Guns are for killing, not for show. If the threat is bad enough to scare or wound the assailant, it is bad enough to kill him. Usually a less than lethal shot can be removed by surgery, so the prospect of a surviving assailant dying of lead poisoning is not your problem.