NEW POLICE CHIEFS POLL JUST RELEASED

[MrSandman]

Gun Control: With regard to private citizens owning firearms for sport or self-defense, 93.6 percent of the respondents supported civilian gun-ownership rights. Ninety-six percent of the police chiefs and sheriffs believe criminals obtain firearms from illegal sources and 92.2 percent revealed they hadn't arrested anyone for violation of the so-called "waiting period" laws. When asked if citizens concealed-weapons permits would reduce violent crime, 63.1 percent said yes.

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_6497.shtml

[spotbird]

1. If respondents are selected because of their

agrement with a particular view, polling results can show anything.

If you polled the DU membership you'd find that 90% of the surveyed thinks Bush is evil. Can one then assume that 90% of internet users feel that way?

[MrSandman]

2. Of course that is what the Chiefs did...

The National Association of Chiefs of Police released its 17th Annual Survey of Police Chiefs and Sheriffs and some of the survey findings are surprising and compelling. The survey -- released in the January 2005 issue of Police Times Magazine -- had some surprising results on various topics including terrorism, gun control, homeland security, and drug enforcement.

NACOP asserts that the public perception of how police view certain issues is based on media coverage, which is not necessarily accurate. When police chiefs and sheriffs are allowed to respond to poll questions anonymously, the politics may be removed from their answers.

:tinfoilhat:

[spotbird]

4. That doesn't explain a thing.

You link to a conservative publication. Is that association conservative? How were the respondents selected? What was the wording of the questions?

[MrSandman]

5. It doesn't square with your view...

WE ARE:
1. A 501 (c) (3) nonprofit, tax exempt, educational association of command law enforcement officers within the United States, its territories and military forces.
2. The only spokesman for the American law enforcement professional representing the interests of 60,000 eligible members.
3. Membership is open to all municipal, county, state and federal law enforcement command officers and to directors of security agencies in the United States.

http://www.aphf.org/nacop.html

Then, some don't trust law enforcement organizations.

A pro-2A group of LE professionals is less credible than the VPC or Brady Bunch?

[spotbird]

6. Actually, blindly trusting a nonscientific survey because you

like what it says is fine for a true believer, but it convinces the skeptical of nothing.

[jody]

7. Perhaps you prefer the various gun-grabber studies purporting

to show how gun ownership causes crime. Unfortunately those studies were reviewed by independent panels and their conclusions were found to be invalid.
:shrug:

[spotbird]

9. No, I trust valid surveys

and distrust the others.

[MrSandman]

8. At least it is a survey, we do not know the method...

Of actual LE personnel as opposed to the authoritative expert opinions so oft-cited as anti-RKBA.

[spotbird]

10. Without the method,

it is just a statement that people with a view share that view.

[MrSandman]

11. When I see no more VPC links...nt

[spotbird]

12. I don't know what a VPC is.

but if they publish nonsense surveys I'd ignore them if I were you.

[MrSandman]

13. The Holy Writ of Gun Control?

Ignore them?

Best advice I've heard in GR&GC.

[benEzra]

18. The VPC is the Violence Policy Center...

a prohibitionist group that generates most of the talking points used by the Brady Campaign and other gun-control groups, as well as a lot of gun-404 politicians.

www.vpc.org

They favor banning the civilian *possession* of handguns, most nonhunting-style long guns, and high-powered precision rifle calibers including .338 Lapua.

They are the same group that originated the "assault weapon" meme as a way to demonize nonhunting-style firearms; they are also trying to popularize the term "pocket rockets" (small high-quality handguns like the S&W 3913 Ladysmith or Glock 26) but not many talking heads are using it yet.

[iverglas]

15. haha

Then, some don't trust law enforcement organizations.

Yeah, eh? And the rkba-head crowd hereabouts just seems to include a large number of 'em. The non-trusters, that is.



A pro-2A group of LE professionals is less credible than the VPC or Brady Bunch?

Did somebody say that??

As to the possible bias in the poll -- well hmm, it seems that they weren't just "chiefs of police who belong to NACOP". The survey questions "were posed by mail of 22,587 Chiefs of Police and Sheriffs in the United States. It represents a cross section of professional command officers involving every state."
http://www.aphf.org/survey.html

And here are the survey questions and results:
http://www.aphf.org/surveyresults.pdf
(permission to reproduce with credit is given)

Here's a fun bit, right at the beginning:

DEATH PENALTY

1. Do you believe the death penalty serves as a deterrent to certain types of crimes? -- 97.3% YES

2. Do you believe that when a law enforcement officer is feloniously killed in the line of duty that the penalty upon conviction should be death? -- 88.5% YES

Now there's a group of opinion leaders I'd want to be following. Fer sure.

How 'bout:

DRUGS

21. Should marijuana be legalized in the United States for those who have a legitimate medical need for the drug? -- 59.8% NO

and:

31. Do you feel “civilian review boards” are an effective method of handling citizen complaints against law enforcement officers? -- 76.9% NO

Wot a bunch of liberals and progressives, eh?



Here's something interesting (and check that source):
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Cozzolino1.html

Law enforcement views regarding the issue of a waiting period for gun purchases may begin from a more informed point of view. The Fraternal Order of Police, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers and the National Sheriffs' Association have spoken out in support of the Brady bill along with the American Bar Association. Polling data indicated that a large number of major urban police chiefs also favor a waiting period for handguns.

Both the American Federation of Police (AFP), the second largest rank and file police organization, and the National Association of Chiefs of Police (NACOP), the second largest command rank organization, oppose a waiting period. According to a 1990 Gallup poll of NACOP, results indicated that a majority of command rank officers are skeptical about waiting periods. Although skepticism is no true measure of opposition toward the waiting period, the polling results tend to manifest the imprecision of attempting to flesh out popular and professional opinion regarding legislation.

Seems like we really might need to know a little more about the composition of NACOP's membership. Or really, its leadership -- since the leadership opposes something that the members "are sceptical" about.

And oh dearie me. Look at the company the leadership keeps:

http://www.rkba.org/orgs/pro/proponent9408

Speakers at the national rally are Larry Pratt (GOA), Jay Simkin (JPFO), Roy Innis (CORE), Dennis Martin (NACOP) and Jim Fotis (LEAA).

Jews for the Promotion of Fake psychOlogy and a Churlish Old REpublican. Oh, and Larry Pratt. What, no Punk Plinkers?

(If anyone at all just doesn't know what I'm talking about there or why I'm saying what I say, s/he can consider making a polite request for an explanation, and I'll try to provide directions to where it can be found. Anyone who addresses me as if I don't know what I'm talking about or have no reason for saying what I say can piss off in advance.)

[Lefty48197]

16. Yeah, great argument sandman

"Then, some don't trust law enforcement organizations."

You forgot that this group represents, "directors of security agencies in the United States." I'm assuming that they are including Tim McVeigh's "Michigan Militia" or "Patriots" among their members.

Oh yeah, your group doesn't even represent the cops who walk the beats, and drive the patrol cars. It represents those that wear shiny gold badges and attend press conferences and stuff. Those aren't the real cops.

Does any of this sound like the right wing agenda?

"What We Stand for:
1. We are a strong, powerful and professional organization on the side of law enforcement.
2. We believe that all law-abiding citizens have the right (if they so select), to own firearms for self-defense and sport. We are also ready to serve as a standing "militia" during any disaster or national emergency, as part of civil defense preparedness.
3. We support swift punishment for career criminals.
4. We favor the death penalty and are determined to achieve drug-free schools and communities.
5. We believe that victims of crime are entitled to recompense for damages and lost wages."

[Romulus]

20. the group that represents LEO's "who walk the beat" is the FOP

(Fraternal Order of Police), an org that has been the subject of flamefests here for their OPPOSITION to most gun control proposals.

http://www.grandlodgefop.org/

Reflecting the political leanings of the majority of LEO's (whom the FOP represents), the FOP's agenda is clearly right-wing. So it should be no surprise that a LEO org shows right-wing responses to its own survey.

Pro-gun-owners' criticism down here is usually leveled against the Chiefs of police, who are viewed as political appointess (similar to John Ashcroft). These are the types who show up at press conferences to get their faces on camera, generating interest in their (later) books about their career expereriences.

[jody]

3. Will you believe law enforcement experts or the Scary Brady Bunch? n/t

[Lefty48197]

17. Good question. Who would YOU believe?

http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dmustard/police.pdf

"in examining the issue, we should first understand what police believe about the laws. The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), the world's oldest and largest membership organization of police executives, has made official statements about concealed weapons laws and the Brady Act, a federally mandated background check. THe IACP has over 16,000 members and represents law enforcement agencies of all sizes and on the local, state, federal, and international levels. At its 103rd annual conference in
October 1996, the IACP passed two resolutions to oppose the federal preemption or liberalization of individual states’ concealed-carry laws. In support of its resolution, the IACP stated, “Whereas, there is an effort to liberalize states’ CCW weapons] laws by enacting federal legislation, which would pre-empt current state CCW laws, with the argument that citizens wish to carry guns for self-protection, further arguing that the arming of private citizens will result in dramatically lowering the national crime rate by deterring criminals from victimizing these law-abiding citizens; and whereas, a majority of law enforcement professionals and an overwhelming majority of Americans do not support this theory. . .


Although the IACP does not have a formal resolution on waiting
periods, its Executive Committee has stated, “The IACP continues to
strongly support the Brady Law. The Fraternal Order of Police, the
world’s largest organization of sworn law enforcement officers, with
more than 280,000 members, strongly endorsed the Brady Bill...


One of the first and most frequently articulated criticisms of Lott
and Mustard was that allowing people to carry concealed weapons
would drastically alter the safety of the police. Such concern
received a lot of attention when Elizabeth Dole, who at that time
was a candidate for the Republican nomination for President of the United States, articulated it. In May 1999, Dole stated that she
strongly opposed shall-issue laws because she believed they
endangered officers’ lives.

[jody]

22. Your reply cites various laws however, as has been stated elsewhere

two recent studies by blue-ribbon panels of experts found after reviewing many scholarly papers that there is no evidence that gun laws affect violent crime.

Gun-grabbers don't like those findings but they are the latest and most authoritative statement about the efficacy of laws that ban or severely restrict gun ownership.

[iverglas]

23. too bad, so sad; no.

two recent studies by blue-ribbon panels of experts found after reviewing many scholarly papers that there is no evidence that gun laws affect violent crime.

If only they'd said that, eh?

Too bad they didn't.

[Lefty48197]

24. It sounds like you didn't read my post, so I'll summarize:

The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), the world's oldest and largest membership organization of police executives...

At its 103rd annual conference in October 1996, the IACP passed two
resolutions to oppose the federal preemption or liberalization of
individual states’ concealed-carry laws.

(the gun lobby)...arguing that the arming of private citizens will result in dramatically lowering the national crime rate by deterring criminals from victimizing these law-abiding citizens; and whereas, a majority of law enforcement professionals and an overwhelming majority of Americans do not support this theory. . .

“The IACP continues to strongly support the Brady Law.

The Fraternal Order of Police, the world’s largest organization of sworn law enforcement officers, with more than 280,000 members,
strongly endorsed the Brady Bill...

[jody]

25. I read your post and to summarize my response, there is no proof

that banning guns reduces violent crime.

[Romulus]

14. didn't NACP support the AWB and other gun-grabbing?

or am I confusing it with the IACP? And if not, how does statement by the NACP square with the IACP? I guess one is just US and CAN, the other is ALL countries? :shrug:

It has been asserted that police chiefs are political appointees and parrot the administration that appointed them. This NACP poll result may throw cold water on that assertion, but I think the jury is still out.

For instance, here's my police chief, newly hired, and ready for the big times:

http://www.gazette.net/200437/weekend/a_section/235293-1.html

(Chief Tom)Manger, like his predecessor, Charles A. Moose, supports an extension of the federal ban.

"These weapons are not the kind used for hunting or any kind of sport," he said. "They have one purpose, and that's to kill a lot of people real quickly."

The federal law was effective, he said."

Of course, that's why the MoCo SWAT team used the NFA-class AR-15. :eyes:

FYI in MD, the Colt AR-15 HBAR is not considered a "regulated firearm" (as so-called "Assault weapons" are officially classifed here), but any other AR-15 variant IS labeled an "assault weapon."

You can pick up the HBAR from any gun shop that same day with just the 4473 (or private sale with nada); the other AR-15's require (1) proof of offical firearms training, (2) a 7-10 day waiting period, and (3) registration with the state police.

[DrGonzoLives]

19. Seems iffy to me

Especially since every police union in the country wanted the Assault Weapons Ban renewed (warts and all), and most don't like concealed-carry laws since some states will issue them without notifying local law enforcement.

[Billy Ruffian]

21. other than Alaska and Vermont

which don't require permits to carry concealed, what states issue permits without notifying local law enforcement?

In NC, the application is through the county sheriff, and the sheriff issues the permit.

If a state issues the CCW through a statewide office, what utility is there in notifiying the local LEO? The permit holder still has to pass all the statutory requirements to obatin the permit.

[MrSandman]

26. But, say the Sheriff of Dare Co. issues a permit...

Is the night Deputy in Wilkes County notified? :eyes:

[Billy Ruffian]

27. no, but why should he?

CCW holders in NC are required to tell an LEO that he is carrying.

[MrSandman]

28. And they can be trusted?...

[Billy Ruffian]

29. Most likely

anyone that has gone through the effort of getting a CCW permit in NC is not going to risk losing it by failing to disclose that they're carrying.

I've not heard any reports of a CCW holder shooting a cop ...