British Home Intruder Self Defence Laws Clarified

[Pert_UK]

We've had a few discussion in here about exactly what Brits can and can't do if they find an intruder in their home. Turns out that there have only been 11 people in the last 15 years who were charged by Police for using unreasonable force when confronted by a burglar....Only 5 have been convicted, including, "a man who laid in wait for a burglar on commercial premises in Cheshire, before beating him up, throwing him into a pit and setting him on fire."

Believe it or not, home owners who have SHOT burglars in self-defence were usually not prosecuted (provided the gun was held legally, it's just another object to hand that can be used):

"Householders who injure or even kill intruders are unlikely to be prosecuted - providing they were acting "honestly and instinctively", new guidelines say. The law also protects those who use "something to hand" as a weapon...

But knocking someone unconscious then killing them or hurting them further, or setting a trap for an intruder without involving the police were given as examples of "excessive and gratuitous" force."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224473.stm

According to the Director of Public Prosecutions, you can even keep a cosh (blackjack) next to your bed for use in self-defence if you find a burglar in your house. Plus, you don't have to wait to be attacked - providing you're genuinely afraid for yourself or your family, you can get the first blow/stab in.

[davepc]

1. Now the UK needs to amend the law to allow the citizenry

to posses the tools to adequately protect themselves and their homes.

a cricket bat or kitchen knife is a poor substitute for a shotgun or pistol.

[Pert_UK]

2. No thanks....

We actually do genuinely prefer to be a largely unarmed society, and levels of crime don't really justify us breaking out the firearms just yet. Even our police don't general carry or want firearms.

If you want a shotgun you can get one, but most people would genuinely prefer to live in a gun-free house and neighbourhood. They wouldn't sacrifice that for a one-in-a-million chance of confronting a burglar in their home.

P.

[Romulus]

3. was the shooter case AFTER the new gun laws?

or before the "no loaded gun at home" law went into effect? Just wondering if you know . . .

I still think the UK "no self-defense tool" policy when out of your home promotes a "law of the jungle" system, where 19 y/o, 6 foot tall 200lb rugby players roam the streets and prey on others at will . . . but that's just me.

[Pert_UK]

4. Don't know what you mean by "shooter case" - Tony Martin?

If you mean the Tony Martin case, the reason that he was charged and convicted was because he shot somebody (a 16 year old boy IIRC) in the back as they were running away.

The Director of Public prosecutions (during a radio interview I heard) specifically said that you are allowed to reach for a gun (if you hold one legally) and defend yourself with it in your own home. What you can't do is stand on the threshold of your home and shoot someone in the back when they're running away from your property. I'm not sure about whether you can keep a gun loaded in your house, but I believe all guns must be kept locked in a proper gun safe.....I doubt that you'd be allowed to leave them in their loaded.

I still think the UK "no self-defense tool" policy when out of your home promotes a "law of the jungle" system, where 19 y/o, 6 foot tall 200lb rugby players roam the streets and prey on others at will . . . but that's just me.

The thing is, it really ISN'T a jungle out there. There really aren't gangs of huge violent thugs roaming the streets and laughing as they assault weak and timid citizens with impunity. If there were, maybe I'd reconsider my position. However, if there WERE these huge guys going around robbing and attacking people, bringing in a law that allowed the carrying of weapons for self-defence would surely mean that the thugs had legal excuse for carrying weapons themselves, and could only be charged with an offense if they were caught using the weapon in a robbery. It would also mean that all those assholes in pubs/clubs who are determined to have a fight every Friday would be using knives or guns rather than fists.

IMHO an armed citizenry doesn't dissuade criminals, it just means that they arm themselves more heavily and more often, and are more likely to physically attack victims to prevent self-defence.

[Romulus]

6. "shooter" means the story you referenced in the starter

About the person who wasn't prosecuted. I think I read something about it being a hairdresser at her salon or something, but that may be a DGU-thread mix-up. :evilgrin:

(no luck with the internet search on the story)

Thanks.

Edited to add:

In a past Dungeon flamefest on the UK, I remember someone posted the law that says that all firearms had to be kept unloaded in the required gun safe unless you are actually in the act of moving them to the shooting area. The purpose of such a law was to protect gun owners from themselves "during a fit of pique" or something.

[Pert_UK]

7. Sorry, the "shooter" story was remarked upon by the DPP...

but he didn't give any details about it, so I can't help. Might look if I get the chance.

P.

[iverglas]

11. previous DU threads

In a past Dungeon flamefest on the UK, I remember someone posted the law that says that all firearms had to be kept unloaded in the required gun safe unless you are actually in the act of moving them to the shooting area. The purpose of such a law was to protect gun owners from themselves "during a fit of pique" or something.

I suspect that you are referring to a post by me about Canadian firearms legislation.

Here's what *I* (not the law) said, 10 days ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=95726&mesg_id=95726
post 81: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=95726&mesg_id=98288&page=

But I'm very particularly in favour of laws forbidding people to possess firearms without a licence, and laws forbidding people to engage in transfers of firearms without registering them, and laws forbidding people to promenade around in public with firearms on their persons or in their vehicles, and laws forbidding people to store firearms in a way that leaves them accessible to children, intruders or other unauthorized persons, and too readily accessible to the owner in the event of a fit of pique.

post 89: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=95726&mesg_id=98453&page=
- reproduction of relevant portion of the Firearms Act regulations ("Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations").

There are numerous good reasons for requiring safe/secure storage of firearms. Prevention of theft by people planning to use the stolen firearm(s) for criminal/violent purposes is really the big one. (I'm sure we all recall the figures I have repeatedly posted, from the study by Toronto's police service, showing that a large proportion of "crime guns", recovered firearms that had been used in the commission of crimes, were stolen from lawful owners, and the particular story of the visiting Brit shot to death on a downtown sidewalk in Canada's capital, in a drive-by shooting by teenagers with a firearm they had just stolen.)

That people in the vicinity will be at less risk from impulsive firearms use by firearms owners (hardly protecting "gun owners from themselves") is another outcome that it is not unreasonable to expect.

[Blade42]

8. IMHO an armed citizenry doesn't dissuade criminals, it just means that the

Criminals are predators, and as such they go for the weakest prey. If your armed and they know it they go looking elsewhere.The last time a group of tough guys tried to jump me all it took was a quick deployment of my Benchmade AFCK and they decided I wasn't worth the trouble.

[aikoaiko]

5. Pert, can you summarize UK laws on gun ownership

or provide a link summarizing them.

Or perhaps you know what it would take as a UK citizen to own legally possess a handgun (like a 1911 or Glock), shotgun (like basic 12 gauge pump or semi), or rifle (like an AR15 variant with 10 round mag) in their home. Are there storage laws in addition to acquisition laws?

thanks in advance.

[Pert_UK]

9. Here's a basic start:

Handguns - totally banned. There just might be an exception for single shot Olympic-style competition pistols but I don't think so. Unsure about whether black-powder / flintlock historic weapons are still OK but I think that they are.

Shotguns - double barrelled are OK but semi-autos (I believe) are banned. Unsure about pump-actions but think they're banned too....You'd need to apply for a shotgun certificate from the Police. "After we receive your application, the necessary checks will take place. Once these are completed you will be contacted by the Enquiry Officer covering your area. He/she will arrange a mutually agreeable appointment to visit your home address, to discuss your application and give advice on the necessary security."

Rifles - to the best of my knowledge, all auto and semi-auto rifles above .22 rimfire are banned. I believe that bolt action with a mag is OK, but you can't have anything where you can keep squeezing the trigger and shooting.

Here's a link to the Met, but the laws should apply across the UK:

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/index.htm

[iverglas]

12. shooting in the UK

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/shooting

Info about numbers participating in "shooting sports", economic fallout, etc.

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/shootingintheuk

In Britain 'hunting' usually means hunting with packs of hounds - that is stag, fox or hare hunting. Those who use guns are not hunters but 'shooters' or 'guns' - the word can apply to the person as well as the weapon.

... Shooting is generally owned and controlled by individuals, rather than clubs or local associations, except for wildfowling, where foreshore shooting can usually only be obtained through wildfowling organisations. Overall the representative body for country shooting in the UK is the British Association for Shooting and Conservation which is supported by 120,000 people. Its specialist departments can give advice on all subjects and you are strongly advised to join the association if you are thinking of shooting in Britain. There are political threats to our sport and BASC fights these resolutely. It also produces a regular magazine which will keep you in touch with developments in the UK and, most importantly, your membership provides automatic insurance cover. BASC's address is Marford Mill, Rossett, Wrexham LL12 0HL.

Shooting falls into several categories and you will decide which interests you most. Obviously rough shooting is far more active than driven shooting and is particularly appreciated by those who enjoy working dogs. Wildfowling will take you to the remotest places in the roughest weather - this is the sport for the would-be Ernest Hemingways - but if you have a great affinity with wild places it can have an almost magical appeal.

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/wildfowling1

Not for the faint hearted, wildfowling is mainly a solitary sport requiring considerable stamina and patience as it takes place on estuaries and coastal marshes during the winter months in wet, muddy and often cold conditions.

(I note that the Canada Goose is just as destructive and annoying in the UK as it is in North America, but is protected. All species are protected a priori, with seasonal exceptions governing what may be hunted when.)

I haven't found anything that says so in so many words, but it doesn't sound to me as if shooting (hunting) is permitted only on privately-held land.

[aikoaiko]

13. Wow, the gun laws are tough in UK.

The differences between the UK and US are fascinating.

I just can't imagine a US presidential, congressional, or gubernatorial candidate making the case for equivalent laws (all of them) in the US. Not even in California. ;-)

[Romulus]

10. FWIR from past flamefests:

- have to apply for a shotgun or rifle license; no semi-auto anything

- license includes medical check, etc.

- no handguns allowed, period

- application for the rifle/shotgun license includes reason for owning, and the physical location of where you will be shooting said firearm

- police have to physically inspect the listed shooting area and approve it; there was a minimum amount of land needed, and you either had to own the land or have written permission from the landowner to use it (there apparently are no public shooting areas or public hunting areas in the UK)

- as part of the license application, police inspect your home and be sure you have a gun safe, and can drop in anytime later on to inspect your compliance with the always-unloaded-and-locked-up-in-the-gun-safe law.

- license gets renewed every few years, and you go through the whole process

Of course, this is just my memory, but I'm sure the details can be found at the source:

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/index.htm