Quick question about home defence gun laws........

[Pert_UK]

Mods - feel free to move to the "other place" if you like, but I think that this is legal, rather than gun porn...

I've read several posts on here asking about which gun to buy for home defence, and I've read lots of response from people who suggest buying a shotgun for this purpose.

I can see why a shotgun might be a good idea - the shot spreads out a bit so you don't have to be hyper-accurate, and it is unlikely to go through a wall/ceiling and take out your kid in the next room.

An objection to shotguns is that they're big and unwieldy - can't exactly run from room to room with them pointing in front of you, and you risk getting it grabbed and taken away from you, far more than with a pistol.

So.......why aren't there specific guns for home defence, where you have a very short barrelled shotgun with a pistol grip but no stock? It could be double-barrelled or you could even have a revolver mechanism if you only had 4 chambers and used relatively narrow-gauge shells. You wouldn't need lots of powder in the cartridges (because it's for close range) so recoil shouldn't break your wrist.

Is there some kind of law against this sort of weapon? I can't see why it wouldn't give all the convenience of a pistol but with the advantages of firing shotgun ammo....

[thinkingwoman]

1. there are pistol grip shotguns

for just those reasons.

[MrSandman]

2. Under 18" bbl...

Not legal for a shotgun; see Miller vs. US

OTOH, one could load the .44 derringer with .410 shels.

On edit...I believe the pistol-grip only shotguns are used mainly on breaching barriers. I have never seen any pistol grips on shotguns used by patrol officers.

[bowens43]

3. A MUCH better solution is

a big , noisy dog.

[Pert_UK]

4. Forget about a dog, fool! He'll shit in the den......

nowadays a gat is a man's best friend!

At least according to Ice Cube...

[slackmaster]

5. Shotguns with barrels under 18 inches are regulated under the NFA

National Firearms Act. There's a federal background check, chief law enforcement officer signoff, and $5 federal transfer tax to acquire one, plus any additional restrictions your state of residence imposes.

Here in California it's almost impossible to get one unless it's a valuable, historic collector's item and you live in a place where the chief of police or sheriff is gun-friendly.

Interesting that you mentioned shotguns with revolving cylinders - Those were considered "assault weapons" under the federal ban that expired 9/13/2004. California also regulates them as AWs under its non-expiring ban.

[hollowdweller]

28. Yea that's what the ATF used to set up Randy Weaver convinced him to saw

off a shotgun and the busted him for it.

[Romulus]

6. quick response to good Q's

- shot doesn't spread out as much as some people say it does. In my hunter safety class they did a demo where they shot a 1" thick board with both a 12 guage slug and a 12 guage shell with #4 buckshot. From 10-15 feet away or so, the buckshot made a single hole about 2" wide and the slug hole was about 1" wide. The point of the demo was to show that shot makes a "bigger" hole in something than you might think; I was surprised at how small the buckshot hole was. Of course, if you use shot smaller than #4 buck, like birdshot or something, the result may vary, but it's still a 12 guage powder load pushing that steel/lead shot. But you would have to test fire the shot to see what the pattern would like like at various distance (generally larger spread at longer distance), because you might be surporsed at what shot will do out of your particular shotgun vs. another shotgun.

- big and unweildly is right. You can get a shotgun over the counter here in the US with a barrel down to 18 inches; usually these are sold as 18.5" just to be sure about the legality. With some models you can retrofit them with the pistol-grips you mentioned. Anything less than a 18" barrel gets you into NFA territory, with the ATF licensing and registration similar to machine guns, etc. The revolver-type shotguns are generally known by the brand name "Street Ssweeper" and are either banned in many states or, if legal at the state level, fall under the aforementioned NFA laws.

- room to room, etc. This is where tactics come in. You don't generally clear rooms with the shotgun sticking out in front of you. There are carry methods and searching techiques that reduce the grab exposure. And there's always the "bunker down and hold the fort" method of home defense, where you get everyone in one room, keep them behind you, and keep the gun trained on the closed door while the others are on the phone to the police.

[benEzra]

7. From personal experience...

shotguns with no shoulder stock are extremely difficult to shoot well. Shotguns are immensely powerful--a single round of 000 buckshot puts as many 9mm projectiles downrange as an eight-round burst from a submachinegun, and a shotgun slug is .729 caliber (!). Trying to soak up that recoil with just your hands is quite a feat; in terms of energy and momentum, a full-power shotgun is approximately five to ten times as powerful as a round from a typical defensive-caliber handgun. If you raise the gun for aimed fire, you risk bonking yourself in the face with the back of the receiver when you pull the trigger, and the raised pistol-grip-only gun is actually easier to take a way than a gun with a pistol-grip shoulder stock.

There are indeed shotguns marketed for home-defense, with adjustable-length stocks, 18" barrels, flashlight mountings, and open chokes, but unless you are really skilled (and really BIG) a stockless shotgun is probably not the way to go. A handgun, stocked shotgun, or compact carbine (AR-15, Beretta Storm, Ruger mini-14, AK lookalike) make more sense from a practical standpoint.

[RoeBear]

12. How about this?

I'm sure some would say a 410 is under powered for home defense, but it might be just the ticket for ladies or senior citizens.

I'm assuming that a pistol grip could replace the butt stock.

[Mayday999]

8. Shotguns are not my #1 choice

I keep an Austrian Steyr AUG A1 model with a 16" barrel and a 42 round magazine for home defense. Its a bull-pup, so the overall lenght is very-very short; making it easy to clear rooms with. I load-up 42 rounds of 55-grain rounds, at room to room distance the rounds velocity makes it very safe. Test show that there is less penetration than most 9mm and 40 S&W pistol rounds. But it will stop an attacker in their tracks.

If you have the means, I highly recomend picking up a Steyr AUG. Plus you can swap barrels out to 20" and a heavy sniping barrel @ 24" with a bipod.

OOOps. I just noticed you live in the UK. I guess assault rifles are not permited. Oh well, good luck with that.

[Township75]

9. I guess another question we should all ask is...

why only have a shotgun or handgun? Why not have both? Get a holster for the handgun, and then you can carry the shotgun in your hands, and have the handgun ready at your side.

This may finally motivate me to buy a shotgun!

[Columbia]

11. Remember to get a sling

A sling is to a shotgun what a holster is to a handgun. :)

[RoeBear]

10. Something like this?

[Township75]

25. Holy Balls! That is bad fucking ass!

Is that yours or just a pick of someone else's?

If it is yours, do you like it?

[RoeBear]

27. Not mine

just grapped it off Google.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

14. Except if you ever have to use it defensively...

you may end up spending several years at the nearest Club Fed. If that were the gun I wanted, I'd highly recommend going the legal NFA route...

[goju]

15. Death to self or family, or pay a fine for an illegal weapon?

This isnt Canada. If its a justifiable matter of self defense, you might have to pay a fine and give up the weapon. Chances are you wont go to jail, unless you live in chicago, dc, ny, etc. Either way, Id just as soon protect my family and deal with the consequences later. If your that worried about it though, stick with an off the shelf coach gun. Short and maneuverable.

[iverglas]

16. permit me to assist you

"This isnt Canada."

I know you really meant to say "This isn't Illinois", or maybe "This isn't California".

Or hmm, maybe you have an example of someone in Canada using a firearm for bona fide self-defence purposes and being charged with the unlawful possession of the firearm ...

[Billy Ruffian]

17. It's not the self defense issue

it's the accessibility.

As I read the links you've posted with Canadian firearms law, it is illegal to store a firearm where you have ready access.

If you're going to use a firearm for self defense, it seems that you'd need to have advance warning from the bad guy so that you could go retrieve your firearm from its locked storage, then get the ammunition, then load the firearm.

[aikoaiko]

19. Access versus safety is a bitch.....

I am torn about this one myself, but I will start to lean more to safety as my son is about to be born.

I usually keep my Mossberg 12 Cruiser ( 20 inch, 8 round, 00 buck, pistol grip) loaded (one in the chamber) with the safety on leaning against the wall in between the end table and bed.

Now I'll go with something like this...makes for nice decor when bolted to the wall.

[Columbia]

20. Gunvaults are defective

Turns out that those circular backup locks are highly susceptible to picking with Bic pens. I'd look into something else - at least until they fix the problem.

[aikoaiko]

23. GREAT :-(

... I have a couple of more months before the tyke is born and then a few more before he roams around, but I want to get that shotgun secured with quick access as soon as I can.

I really liked the touch unlock system of the gunvault.

oh uh, this is digressing into a non-political gun discussion......

[Columbia]

24. Hmm...

Well, you should be fine for a few years with it until you can find another solution. I highly doubt the baby is going to be able to figure out how to disassemble and use a Bic pen to pick the lock.

[goju]

22. Hmmm

Id suggest you do your own research on that issue, but that would be mocking another poster who says that very thing, quite frequently. Me, I dont need to know the moon isnt made of green cheese and I guess Im just not interested in prooving to anyone who thinks it is.

[Mayday999]

18. goju....really, really bad advise

Why on earth would you give advise that's illegal? First if you do have to defend your life, you WILL be answering a lot of questions to the ATF as to why you have an illegal weapon. Never, ever use anything illegal to defend yourself, because you will have to answer for your actions.

In addition, any time you use a firearm defensively, you WILL be sued by the survivors family. If you used an illegally chopped shotgun, the prosecuting attorney will use this to their advantage. The jury will not be too sympathetic to a person who uses illegal weapons.

There's very little to be gained by cutting the barrel to 14"...but there is a WHOLE LOT to lose. Just a thought.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mayday999]

26. You make it sound like there are only two options.....

....either to use an illegal weapon by chopping the barrel OR defend your family and those "who looked to me for security."

With you statement: "Me? Id just as soon be well prepared and answer to the law than be less prepared and answer to those who looked to me for security. Everybody has their priorities though." Hey, I'm all for defending yourself and your family, heck, read my post. I usually keep a Steyr-AUG rifle under the bed. Difference is that its 100% legal. So yeah, I am also defending my family, I'm just doing it legally.

[Pert_UK]

29. Another law abiding gun owner........

Great.

Another law abiding gun owner who only obeys the laws that THEY agree with.

Somebody who suggests making and using an illegal weapon for home defence......

And people on here wonder why me, Iverglas, Co Liberal etc. are all just a little bit sceptical when faced with pro-RKBA people talking about being "responsible" and "law abiding".

This kind of thing makes me harden my position - I'm generally in favour of better enforcement of existing laws and sensible restrictions, but when owners start giving out advice like this I can't help but think they shouldn't be trusted with anything more than a peashooter.......

Conversely, if this is genuinely the best type of weapon for home defence, then why the hell is it banned? After all, that's what guns are for, eh?

[slackmaster]

30. Weapon described in reply #13 is not inherently illegal

Somebody who suggests making and using an illegal weapon for home defence......

It's possible to manufacture and possess a short-barrelled rifle legally for one's own use in most states. The paperwork and federal tax ($200 I believe) are a small price to pay to avoid the potential of getting a 5-year prison sentence.

And people on here wonder why me, Iverglas, Co Liberal etc. are all just a little bit sceptical when faced with pro-RKBA people talking about being "responsible" and "law abiding".

I don't know about you Pert, but when someone posts a suggestion to do something that could reasonably be done legally I always assume the person meant doing it in a legal manner, unless they explicitly say to disregard the law.

This kind of thing makes me harden my position - I'm generally in favour of better enforcement of existing laws and sensible restrictions, but when owners start giving out advice like this I can't help but think they shouldn't be trusted with anything more than a peashooter.......

That kind of knee-jerk reaction strengthens my belief that people who favor gun control are generally distrustful of others. ;-)

[Pert_UK]

31. Slack, I hope you're taking the piss..........

Keep it in the house and dont worry about it. Nobody needs to know what you use to protect your family...

Death to self or family, or pay a fine for an illegal weapon?...

you might have to pay a fine and give up the weapon...

A bad guy gets plugged, it wont hardly wrinkle an eye around the local PD ranks...

Id just as soon be well prepared and answer to the law than be less prepared and answer to those who looked to me for security...

Show me ANYWHERE where Goju suggested making this weapon legally and getting it licensed....

Knee-jerk reaction? Come off it! Goju CLEARLY implies that what he's suggesting is illegal, but in his opinion worth considering....

Clearly that aren't enough types of legal weapon in the US if Goju can't defend his home without making his own illegal guns....

:eyes:

[Wickerman]

32. Disclaimer

DU does not advocate violating known guns laws and requests posters refrain from instructions that may encourage others to violate such known laws.