Which rounds penetrate walls? Answer within!

[Peak_Oil]

This site shows a guy shooiting various thicknesses of wallboard with a number of different guns and shows which ones will penetrate one, two, three, etc. walls of a house or an apartment building, and what that round might do to a brick wall if struck by the round.

Interesting and educational for those of you who think your nine isn't going to go through the wall to your next door neighbor's apartment.

www.theboxotruth.com

I like the one where he shoots the bulletproof glass the best!

[MrSandman]

1. Two comments...

There is a reason for rule #4.
and


Who needs ammunition cabable of penetrating armored Glass ?<sarcasm off>

[RPM]

3. what's rule number four?

i musta missed something...

[davepc]

4. 4 Rules of Gun Saftey:

All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).

Never aim the gun at something you do not intend to shoot.

Keep your finger off the trigger untill you are ready to shoot.

Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it.

[RPM]

5. gracias davepc

as you might have guessed, and are probably glad for, I do not own a gun.


Have been considering it however.

Thanks!

[Peak_Oil]

6. Do it!

No time like the present! Marksmanship is a great skill to learn and to have. It's calming and relaxing, it's a competitive sport if you want to take it there, it's empowering!

I love shooting, and have been an avid marksman for 20 years. I'd recommend it to just about anyone. Before you invest in a whole lot of equipment, pick up a .22 rifle or a .22 pistol and take a couple classes in marksmanship from your local NRA-qualified instructor and hit the range.

A day at the range should run you from $10-$15, and you can pick up 500 rounds for another $10 or so. It's a $25 outing to spend four or five hours at the range. It's cheaper than going to the movies, and you get to practice breathing and calmness. It's crazy that people think that gun afficionados are crazy psychopaths. You can't hit shit if you're out of control. It's all about being calm and in control. That's what's so challenging about it!

It's kind of like golf in that respect. Except you don't get any exercise.

I hope you try it and like it. It's a lot of fun and a really safe pasttime as long as you practice a little common sense.

[davepc]

7. never too late to learn to shoot.

[Krinkov]

25. Take a gun safety class first

From the NRA or your local police. It's worth it. Especially if it includes range time, so you get to try out and become familiar with the different calibers. I will vouch, it is loads of fun, but very addictive. Just picked up a second AK today, after sitting on my hands for 2 weeks waiting for it to arrive.

[MrSandman]

22. Universal shorthand...nt

[MrSandman]

9. Four rules...

1. Every gun is loaded
2.Never point a gun at anything you are unwilling to destroy
3.Never place your finger on the trigger until ready to fire
4.Be aware of your target and what lies beyond it.

Virtually all accidental shootings can be prevented by following these four rules. Very simple.

On edit: I see your Q received an A. I had to turn in last night.
Be safe.
S

[RC]

2. I'm no gun nut, but

that was educational. Very interesting.

[benEzra]

8. I'd like to see the results for .223 40-grain JHP...

I have a study from Police Marksman that showed some .223 JHP's break up after penetrating two sheets of drywall, which is why my mini-14 loaded with Federal Blitz 40-gr JHP's was my preferred home-defense gun when we lived in a mobile home...

we now live in a brick house, so that's much less of a worry... (even 7.62x54 won't penetrate brick mortared into a wall and compression-loaded).

[ENTSETZEN]

42. wanna bet..........

My Mosin Nagant can penetrate a 12" solid CMU,concrete molded unit,block at 50yards.The thing that most people tend to forget that surplus ammo is not always identified as to its core make up.I have some Albanian solid core that I have personally put through the side of a junk F-150 at the front drivers fender at 25 yards and the round went cleanly through the engine block and through the 10" pine 15' away from it and continued into another vehicle and stopped inside its driver side fender.And on a house,brick is only a veneer and has no structural value UNLESS it is a support column.CMU under compression with type S structural grout has the same breaking point as a single block all by itself.Thats why they fill the cells.
And your .223 doesn't have the mass to penetrate solid objects as good as say a 200gr .30 bullet.It does have the speed and thats where the beauty of the round lays.Light,fast and accurate.The SS109 does some good damage to obstacles but is easily deflected and deformed due to its low mass and high speed. For home defense I have an old winchester 18" pump with the end of the barrel slightly compressed to keep the pattern in a fan.At 10' it covers a 4' area horizontally and only 6" vertically.Nothing can with stand that.

[benEzra]

49. Hmmm...

Here's the article I was recalling, from a police armorer relayed through shooting instructor John Farnam:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/03Aug04.html

03Aug04
A friend recently did penetration tests of pistol, shotgun, and rifle rounds at an old school that was being demolished. Construction dated from the 1960s. Exterior walls were twelve-inch cinderblock. Interior walls were eight-inch cinderblock. We've all seen demonstrations where the demonstrator places a single cinderblock on a stump and than shoots through it with 308 rifle rounds and 12ga slugs. The result is a good deal different when the cinderblock being shot is cemented into a wall. We discovered that 12ga slugs, both standard (Foster) and reduced-recoil, failed to penetrate even the eight-inch wall. Standard 223 failed to penetrate too, as would be expected, but 308 and 7.62X39 didn't penetrate either! Cinderblock walls, so common in institutional construction, provide a more robust barrier than any of us thought. We have nothing in our standard inventory that will reliably shoot through one. /John

03Aug04

Enlightenment on the subject of penetration, from a mechanical engineer:

"Your penetration test results are not surprising. 'Penetration' of a single, unsupported cinderblock via a rifle round is actually a fracture failure, followed by 'penetration.' Conversely, built and cemented in to a wall, each block reinforces the next, and blocks under compression are much stronger that a single block sitting by itself. Under such conditions, blocks are exceptionally resistant to fracture and resultant penetration, as you disco vered.

Your quip is an excellent illustration of the axiom: 'Test procedure defines the result.' If one doesn't anticipate attempting penetration of a single block, sitting by itself on a stump, then such a test or 'demonstrat ion' would appear to be irrelevant. The closer to reality the test, the more legitimate the results."

7.62x54 is certainly more powerful than .308, but not by a huge amount, and I have a hunch that solid brick is more resistant to compression and shear than cinder block, hence my supposition. I'm not about to take my M39 and shoot my house just to test my hypothesis, though. :)

I guess if we could convince the builder of the "Box o'Truth" to construct the "Wall o'Truth," we might get some answers...

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[benEzra]

57. Love the design AND the history...

My description

1 3/8" @100yd

Don't have a digital camera (yet), but it looks just like this one. 1942 VKT on a 1905 Izhevsk receiver (with Czarist imperial crest).

I'll take your word for it on 7.62x54 and walls. Do you think that was steel core, AP, or lead core?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[MyMouth]

10. LOL

"Well, it was time to wrap up things. At the request of my friend Matthew_Q, I brought my Shiloh Sharps .45-70, Long Range Express. The load is a 515 grain round nose, gas checked, hard cast bullet over 41.0 grains AA 2495 for about 1500 fps.

Here I am getting ready to unleash the beast.

It went through 12 boards of sheetrock, busted the water jug really nicely, busted the brick to pieces, and exited the back board.

...carrying a brick and half of the back pine board with it, and was last seen headed down range, mad as the dickens.

Moral of this lesson: Don't get in any gun fights with buffalo hunters. There ain't no such thing as cover."

[BearClaws]

11. Most Big Game Rounds

Are incredibly powerful.
They have to be to ensure clean humane kills.
Nearly all calibers of "Deer Rifles" will penetrate police body armor and multiple walls of sheetrock and lumber.
When you step up to the bigger rounds designed for Elk, Moose, Buffalo etc. the penetration is magnified even more so.

[TX-RAT]

47. 3/4 mild steel plate and 300 Weatherby

I don't recommend anyone try this.
150 grain Nosler at 3600fps = nice clean hole through the plate at 50 yards.

[anonymous44]

39. rofl

[slackmaster]

12. I'd like to see the Engine Blocks o' Truth

Kudos to Old_Painless for his tireless and selfless efforts to educate people!

[RoeBear]

14. Question for you

Which penetrates better a bullet or an arrow?

[slackmaster]

15. I think it would depend on what you're shooting at

Also the type of arrow head. One designed for hunting is supposed to do a lot of damage and stop. Steel or aluminum target arrow tips are harder than most bullets, and have a lot of mass behind them.

It would be fun to find out.

[RoeBear]

16. I was just recalling something

from years ago.

A sandbag was leaned against a piece of window glass.
Then someone proceeded to shoot at the sandbag with a handgun.
The rounds didn't penetrate the sandbag to be able to break the glass.
Then they shot at it with a bow ,field tip IIRC, and the arrow went through the sandbag and broke the glass.

Thus proving that arrows are more powerful than pistol rounds.

[benEzra]

17. Broadhead arrow would penetrate Kevlar that would stop a handgun bullet...

because the broadhead would cut the fibers.

[Name removed]

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[TX-RAT]

45. arrow

Seen a test in the 60's comparing a 30-06 with an arrow, i believe they were shotting at sand bags.

Sorry, should have read further down, didn't see your answer.

[RoeBear]

13. I would consider this a 'must read'

for anyone who might use a gun for self-defense in their own home.
And interesting reading for anyone with any interest in guns.

For example: (check out the part that I put in bold)
Lessons learned:

1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards. So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.
(another gun myth destroyed)

[Dolomite]

18. One thing that I'd be interesting in seeing

is the difference between a round fired from a pre-assault weapons ban Uzi and the new NRA model duck hunter's AK-47.

[vpigrad]

19. Big difference

> a round fired from a pre-assault weapons ban Uzi and the new NRA model duck hunter's AK-47.

The round from the AK-47 is much more dangerous since the Uzi fires a slow pistol round. The problem with the Uzi is that it was made to hide under a jacket or in a small case to use to assassinate people. That's why, even though it isn't as powerful as the horribly dangerous weapon of war AK-47, it should be even more illegal.

[skippythwndrdog]

20. Hold on, there, pardner.

It seems that you've made some errors. The Uzi was made to serve the same purpose as the British Sten or American Thompson. It is a submachine gun. It is actually, pretty darn big, and would be quite difficult to conceal. It wasn't made to assassinate people, it was made for use by the Israeli Defense Forces to defend against Arab invaders (Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc). It is made for close quarters battle and is also illegal in the United States, unless it is registered under the National Firearms Act of 1934 and was imported prior to 1986. Uzis are also used as weapons by those unlikely to see combat, such as support troops.

[enfield collector]

21. Uzi also has more thrusts per squeeze.

[anonymous44]

38. lol

[benEzra]

28. Umm, a Glock 9mm is much more concealable than an Uzi 9mm

and both fire the SAME ammunition at the SAME rate, and 30+ round magazines are available for both. The Uzi LOOKS cooler, but it is functionally the same as the pistol your local police officer carries on her hip, and is probably less powerful to boot (the most popular police caliber being .40S&W, IIRC).

My wife's Glock measures 6" by 4".

Of course, we are speaking of civilian Uzi lookalikes here, NOT real Uzi's, which you well know are heavily restricted by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

And of course the "horribly dangerous weapon of war AK-47" is ALSO restricted by the National Firearms Act, since it is an NFA Class III automatic weapon. Civilian AK-47 LOOKALIKES function just like ordinary civilian hunting rifles, and are even less powerful than the rather anemic .30-30 Winchester (late 1800's vintage short-range deer cartridge).

[camaro3232]

43. ok buddy what makes 1 gun more dangerous than the other?

Yet you show you know nothing about firearms. An AK might cause less injury than a small HP pistol round. Its better for the bullet to pass righ through. All military rounds do this. It is against geneiva convention rules to use hollow points. Many people also claim that a AR is too power for people to have. They say "why do you think the military uses it, its too powerful it kills people easily". Yet they are completely wrong. The .223 round is less powerful than the military 5.56 . Many people think it is the same but it is not. Is it identical physically but it the 5.56 is loaded to a high pressure. It also was designed to do maximun damage without killing the person it hit. In war it is better to wound than it is to kill. If you wound someone you take out 3 soldiers. When someone gets shot the other soldiers around him have to attend and take care of him, taking them out of the battle. If he is kill, then he will not need to be attended to by other soldiers for as long. This is exactly why they do not use hunting rounds. You saying the AK is more dangerous because its a weapon of war makes no sense. You also say "The round from the AK-47 is much more dangerous since the Uzi fires a slow pistol round" also is completely wrong. Its better for the bullet to travel at a higher speed and pass right through your body. You are claim that these guns are more dangerous but you really have no idea what you are talking about. You learned all this from anti-gunner propaganda.

[sir pball]

44. Actually, not all military rounds don't pass through...

Its better for the bullet to pass righ through. All military rounds do this.
Not really...just because a bullet is FMJ doesn't mean it's going to pass through and leave a clean hole. The most aerodynamically stable position for a bullet is actially base-first, so every bullet will tumble after about 10-15 cm and leave a gaping temporary cavity that does immense harm to internal organs. The 7.62x51 is notorious for this; a hit in the thigh will leave a clean hole, but a shot in the gut will blow the liver and stomach or heart and lungs to shreds. Higher speed is even worse, not better - light, fast bullets like 5.56s have an even nastier habit of exploding on impact and fragmenting into about 15-20 shards that act like a mini-shotgun...that's one of the reasons they were put into use. Softpoints are MUCH nastier, true, but don't be lulled into thinking an FMJ just acts like a giant piercing gun

ref: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
ref: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.html

[TX-RAT]

46. You need to read some of P.O. Ackleys studies

His studies were about high velocity wounds. His conclusions on the hydraulics of fluid when hit by hi-velocity rounds and secondary projectiles were interesting.

[sir pball]

48. Interesting...but not unexpected...

Well, best I can find with a quick google is this: "His amazing description of the devastating effects of extreme bullet speed, versus bullet weight, is astounding. In one of his experiments, he shot numerous calibers and bullets into a 1Z2-inch armor plate from the frontal area of an U.S. Army half-track. Ackley reports, In this penetration test, the 48-grain .220 Swift factory load penetrated completely, leaving holes approximately 3/8-inch in diameter ... 100-grain .270 Winchester; no penetration ... G.I., so-called armor-piercing round (from a .30-06) made shallow craters. All shots fired from a distance of 30 feet."

Intersting and impressive, but I'm not particularly surprised. High-school physics...KE=mv^2; increasing weight increases energy linerally, increasing velocity increases energy exponentially. Twice the weight is twice the KE, twice the speed is four times the energy. 'S why I'm saving up for that .300 Wby Mag...can't beat a 180-gr bullet moving as fast a 223...

[TX-RAT]

56. aerodynamically stable position for a bullet is actially base-first?

One of Ackleys tests had to do with the damage the bullet receives from recoil while in the magazine. He purposely damaged the nose of several rounds of test ammo, then shot 100 yard groups. His test came to the conclusion that the accuracy of the round wasn't determined by the nose of the bullet. He then took several of the same test rounds and dinged and filed the base of the rounds, after shooting 100 yard groups at the same distance, accuracy went south. His findings determined that it was the base of the round that determined accuracy more-so than the front.

[benEzra]

59. Yes, but that's not why damaged base ruins accuracy...

since the bullet is gyroscopically stabilized to fly point-first. The reason a dinged-up base ruins accuracy is that when the bullet arrives at the barrel of the gun, the gas pressure behind it is still hundreds or even thousands of pounds per square inch. As the bullet begins to clear the muzzle, a narrow gap opens between the bullet base and the barrel crown, and that is where the high-pressure gases first vent to atmospheric pressure.

If the base of the bullet is dinged up, the gas release behind the bullet will be strongly asymmetrical and will yaw the bullet, thereby disturbing the trajectory. (It will settle back down into a point-first stabilized spin with nutation, but the yaw induces aerodynamic lift forces in the direction of yaw that push the bullet off track.)

If bullets weren't spin-stabilized, they would quickly tumble and end up flying base-first, but spinning point forward is better ballistically because (1) supersonic and transonic drag is lower for pointed forms, and (2) rapid spin with CG aft of the center of dynamic pressure causes the nose to precess in the direction the trajectory curves, and there's no aerodynamic oscillation like there would be with a drag-stabilized bullet.

[Name removed]

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[camaro3232]

52. But 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure than .223

Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo?

In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo. However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo. "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch." For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch. Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.

Link-----> http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#diff


Yes it is mostly likly to tumble and cause damage, some parts of the body it can pass thru. But many high violocity rounds exit and that would be better right? I would think you would want it to finnaly pass thru after it tumble instead of a lower vilocity that bounces around and stays in you. Also the human body isnt much resistance to a bullet, any round is deadly.

[Name removed]

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[camaro3232]

61. That site is dead on.

Just because you shoot the M16 doesnt mean you know what your talking about. I do not get my info only from that site.

[camaro3232]

62. Why did you delete the guy's post that I was talking to?

How did he violate the Code of conduct?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[sir pball]

60. Just a minor point..

IIRC the uniform isn't equipment...but the canteen is :)

[Pert_UK]

23. Question.....what is a shotgun "slug"?

I'm not a complete gun idiot (honest) but I really don't know what a shotgun slug is....

I understand bullets (vaguely) with the metal casing/cartridge filled with propellant and the single bullet wedged in one end fired down a rifled barrel (usually), and I understand shotgun cartridges (plastic tubes filled with shot/small metal pieces + wadding and propellant) that fire down smooth bore guns and spread out as they leave the barrel.

I don't know what a shotgun slug is, but from this experiment they seem to be VERY powerful / penetrative. Anyone care to enlighten me?

[Sgent]

24. Bullet Primer

Pistol -- single bullet of x caliber (9mm, etc), with gunpowder

Rifel -- single bullet with rifled barrel (increases speed). Lots more gunpowder too.

Shotgun -- lots of BB's in a very large (wide) barrel/cartridge. With lots of gunpowder

Double Ot Shotgun -- 2 (hence double) large BB's in a shortgun.

Slug -- 1 rifled cartridge in a shotgun.

Keep in mind that a .410 shotgun (a small baby size) barrel is the same width as a .45. A 12 gauge shotgun has a HUGH barrel compared to a 22.

[Krinkov]

26. just a quibble

rifling doesnt make the bullet faster (thats based on weight of the bullet vs amount of propellant), it stabilizes it in flight by causing it to spin evenly, allowing it to maintain greater accuracy for a longer range.

[MyMouth]

29. Some corrections

Pistol/Rifle: Pistols generally are small, firing heavy, slow bullets. Rifles are generally(comparatively) large, firing(comparatively) light and fast bullets. Kinetic energy being mass x velocity squared, a fast bullet is generally more powerful than a slow one. Rifles are orders of magnitude more powerful than pistols.

Shotgun- Large-bore unrifled firearm. A 12-guage shotgun has a barrel approx 3/4 in wide. Typically fires pellets. A slug is a single rifled hunk of lead, typically 1 oz in weight. Will cause tremendous damage at close range.

"Double Ot Shotgun" has no meaning, not to me, anyways. A common round for shotguns is "00 Buck", or double-ought buckshot. Fires 9 pellets. A common self-defense round in the home.

I do not know what a "HUGH" barrel is. I don't think i want to, either. ;)

[Pert_UK]

30. Thanks for this...but ya canna change the laws of physics!

I can't imagine how rifling in a barrel could possibly speed up the bullet.......It must convert at least some of the bullet's forward momentum into rotation, and also create lots of additional friction, so there must surely be a loss of power and therefore bullet velocity in a rifled vs smooth bore barrel.

I realise that rifling should improve accuracy by preventing the bullet "tumbling" though, and "keyholing" on impact.....

[MyMouth]

31. Quite right

The rifling digs into the sides of the bullet, and since the rifling is twisted, imparts spin on the bullet. It also slows it down, I do not know how much. You are also correct as to accuracy, a spinning bullet, even a spinning musket ball, is more stable in flight, and thus more accurate, than a non-spinning bullet.

On a tangent, I have in the past read about the "philosophical" differences between Russian(?) and American tank designers. Russians used unrifled tank barrels, and thus had far faster and more powerful(in terms of Ke) rounds, but sacrificed accuracy. (I may be remembering this wrong, can anyone back me up?)

[benEzra]

33. I dunno, but modern tank cannons...

are all smoothbore; the projectiles are fin-stabilized. They look like steel arrows, but they're typically made of tungsten or case-hardened uranium (for density). A 2-piece insert (sabot) holds the dart in position while it's going down the barrel, and the sabot falls off after the dart exits the muzzle.

[MyMouth]

35. I was under the impression...

That "standard"(HE) tank rounds were similar to other big guns, artilley, naval guns, etc., essentially "big bullets", and that DS rounds were "special". My bad.

[benEzra]

36. I'd have to look that up...

but I know the 120mm cannon on the M1A2 is smoothbore. I think it can fire HE rounds, but they must be fin-stabilized or something. Any former tankers in here that can clarify things?

[ENTSETZEN]

41. yoy are correct.........

M1a2 has a smooth bore strictly for that reason,it can fire ALL types of projectiles. A rifled barrel takes maybe 50fps,feet per second,off a round but the reason for such a slight decrease is the fact that the powder has time to do a complete burn.The shorter the barrel,usually the slower the projectile.This is overcome by the types of powders used.Muzzle flash is also a great indicator of efficient burn.The smaller the flash the better the use of the powder.Now,most people tend to think that hollow point ammo is good for self defense but the fact is there is defensive ammo strictly for that.BESAFE is a goo example,it is compressed shot that WILL NOT penetrate a standard residential wall---1/2" sheetrock,3 1/2" yellow pine and insulation,then 1/2" sheetrock-for interior walls.

[benEzra]

34. Oh, all firearms are rifled, except shotguns...

and even some shotguns have gentle rifling to help stabilize slugs. (E.g., pistol barrels are also rifled.)

[Billy Ruffian]

37. You're quite right

The rifling of a barrel doesn't increase the muzzle velocity (speed), but increases stability, and therefore accuracy.

I *think* perhaps that the implication was that rifles generally have higher velocity bullets. That's because there is (usually) more gunpowder in the cartridge and a longer barrel.

For a given bullet/cartridge/gunpowder combination, you'll get an increased muzzle velocity with a longer barrel (up to a point. If the bullet hasn't left the barrel before the gas expansion of the powder burn stops, the bullet will start to slow in the barrel.)

[davepc]

27. instead of small pellets, a slug is a single lump of metal.

large calibur, with a lot of powder behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

[cyanide]

interesting

I always find this kind of stuff that Old_Painless did interesting.

Bless his heart .

[Name removed]

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[DU GrovelBot]

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