Ditch Holocaust day, advisers urge Blair

[Brightmore]

Ditch Holocaust day, advisers urge Blair
Sunday Times
Abul Taher
September 11, 2005

ADVISERS appointed by Tony Blair after the London bombings are proposing to scrap the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day because it is regarded as offensive to Muslims.

They want to replace it with a Genocide Day that would recognise the mass murder of Muslims in Palestine, Chechnya and Bosnia as well as people of other faiths.

The draft proposals have been prepared by committees appointed by Blair to tackle extremism. He has promised to respond to the plans, but the threat to the Holocaust Day has provoked a fierce backlash from the Jewish community.

Holocaust Day was established by Blair in 2001 after a sustained campaign by Jewish leaders to create a lasting memorial to the 6m victims of Hitler. It is marked each year on January 27.

The Queen is patron of the charity that organises the event and the Home Office pays £500,000 a year to fund it. The committees argue that the special status of Holocaust Memorial Day fuels extremists’ sense of alienation because it “excludes” Muslims.

Full story

[Jim Sagle]

1. What a putrid idea.

[Brightmore]

2. Not to mention Orwellian

It's like they want to put the Holocaust down the memory hole. The neo-Nazis would love for this to happen.

[Prodemsouth]

13. I agree.

n/t

[Colorado Blue]

107. It is a putrid idea and borders on Holocaust denial. There

should be days to remember victims of OTHER genocides, for example the one that is going on in the Sudan, the Assyrians and Armenians - killed by the hundreds of thousands (by Muslims); and what about Rwanda?

But those don't change what happened in Europe in WWII, nor the particularity of this crime against humanity.

And by the way - the Holocaust killed millions of people who weren't Jewish, so the focus on this because of the Jewish victims who are being mourned is sheer bigotry. By the same token, however, pretending that Jews weren't a primary focus of the Holocaust is also bigoted, and trying to conflate Jenin (approximately 56 dead) with the 6,000,000 Jews, over 11,000,000 total dead of the Holocaust, is pure evil.

I hope the British government turns its back on this appalling idea.

[muriel_volestrangler]

112. I'd save the phrase "holocaust denial" for when it actually happens

The day is already the European Day against Genocide. See post #106.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Disgusting

If they want a Genocide Day, go for it...there are 363/4 other days to choose from. There is only ONE reason they want January 27! To change it is not only disrespectful to Jews, but to the others who were systematically destroyed in Hitler's killing machine.

A "Genocide Remembrance Day" could include several things, from the purge of Natives in the US and Central and South America to the genocide in Rwanda.

[Coastie for Truth]

4. Islamofascist denial NT

[Goldensilence]

5. agreed

A "Genocide Remembrance Day" could include several things, from the purge of Natives in the US and Central and South America to the genocide in Rwanda.

Couldn't have said it better myself.We have to remember who we aren't sometimes to remember who we are.

[Chicago Democrat]

6. Genocide Day... Who are we doing now?

Black New Orleanians?

[still_one]

7. europe is where the holocaust happened

if they want a seperate day for other transgressions, fine, but this is pure holocaust denier B.S.

[roguevalley]

8. Jesus. If the Muslims want to gain respect in the world, they can't

take away the day that honors the millions of dead from the past. Indeed, choose another day and have at it. All the dead from all over deserve respect, but not at the expense of others.

[liberalhistorian]

9. Exactly. Why the hell it should offend

Muslims, I can't fucking figure out. And why the hell they should be kowtowed to is also beyond me. This is sickening.

[still_one]

11. do these "groups" who are recommending this speak for all Muslims?

It sure doesn't represent these groups in a very good light

why would they try to minimize an historical event which tried to exterminate all the Jews?

It is obviously an anti-Jewish sentiment being expressed by them

[Centered]

100. Why are they offended?

Some sects might actually celebrate the death of 6 million Jews


boggle can't make everyone happy I guess

[melody]

10. So the anti-H Day group is suggesting forgeting the Holocaust?

How does that serve Muslims? It has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel and is a matter entirely apart from Islamic troubles.

Sounds more like the neo-Nazi element using that as a front.

[bobbieinok]

12. agree....where is David Irving in this???

[ShockediSay]

14. Why a Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day?

Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, Russians, in the millions also suffered the Nazi death camps, not to mention the millions of deaths of Allied soldiers in WWII.

I'm sorry if I find a JHMD more than a little ethnocentric to the exclusion of the rest of the world's ethnic groups, and on top of that, an exercise of reverse discrimination. Armenians, Kurds, Koreans, Rwandans, and most recently those of Dahrur, have suffered ethnic genocide no less worthy of our attention and sympathies.

You don't have to be Muslim (and I'm not) to feel this way.

[Maple]

15. I agree

there have been many holocausts.

And a history of genocide.

All should be remembered, not just one.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

17. How's about one day for every genocide

attempt? Instead of all the focus on just one group.

Or are the Killing Fields of Pol Pot somehow less important?

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Also, fine

Then are many days than can choose from, but having a "Killing Fields of Pol Pot" day might offend the Muslims too, as they would be "alienated." :sarcasm:

[Maple]

21. I said ONE DAY

for ALL the genocide attempts.

Not EACH.

Because sadly, we have more genocide attempts than days in a year.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. And I originally said...

"There are 344/5 other days to choose from." Why not petition for their own day? It is pretty obvious why they want a generic day to absorb the Holocaust Remembrance Day. If they were really interested in remembering all genocides, they would have already petitioned for another day to held as such.

[Maple]

24. Nope...one day for everybody

No special groups.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. One day for all.

But the current day stands.

[Maple]

28. Noop, fraid not

Time to give up the 'exclusive victim' status

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Yep, 'fraid so...

Time to give up the "Jews weren't really victims" status.

[Maple]

34. Noop fraid not

Of course Jews were victims....however they weren't the only victims.

And in spite of 'never again'...they aren't even the latest victims.

[Brightmore]

33. You obviously don't know what the UK Holocaust Memorial Day is

It's a day for ALL the victims of the Holocaust. Not just Jews.

It absolutely makes no sense to have one generic genocide day. It would be like having every single religious holiday on December 25th.

[Maple]

35. Then leave it to Israel

instead of having a 'holocaust rememberance day' in many countries.

I have no idea what Dec 25 has to do with any of this...but one global genocide day would be very effective.

[Brightmore]

38. The Holocaust has nothing to do with Israel

How many Israelis died compared to Europeans?

One global genocide day would diminish the uniqueness of each holocaust. It just doesn't make sense and it wouldn't be effective at all.

Instead of Martin Luther King Day, should we have a generic Minority Leaders' Day?

[Maple]

42. Of course it does

Keep yer stick on the ice here eh?

Martin Luther King is specific to the US.

Why would anyone else celebrate it??

[Brightmore]

46. And the Holocaust is specific to Europe

Why should genocide that happened in Africa or the Middle East have a holiday in Europe?

[Maple]

50. No holocaust should be a holiday

and gee...Xmas happened in ....where was that now...hmmmm...Palestine?

[Brightmore]

I have no idea what you are rambling about

Seems you have a problem with remembering the Jews that died in the Holocaust or something.

BTW, I don't really care about Christmas. I'm not a Christian or religious at all.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brightmore]

60. I'm not Jewish either

Agnostic here.

[Maple]

64. Neither am I

[Jim Sagle]

68. Why would anyone else celebrate King Day?

I guess as a celebration of human rights.

Just my guess. You probably know better, Ace.

[Maple]

70. Good reason

or as good as any.

We don't have a Ghandi day either

[Behind the Aegis]

39. That is NOT the issue.

They are trying to change a BRITISH day! It was not a global day. Have the UN recognize an international genocide day...I am all for that.

[Maple]

43. Well Britain didn't have a holocaust

at least not of Jews. Irish, yes.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. But they do have descendants of its victims living there...

[Maple]

51. So does Timbuktu

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Then let them declare a day

On edit...might be hard to do with no Jews living there.

[Maple]

62. Yes, Universal Genocide Day

To remember every group killed in madness

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Have them petition the UN

[Maple]

73. good idea...go for it

[Behind the Aegis]

76. You seem to want it more...the address is on the web

[Maple]

79. I think you've drifted away

from the topic here.

Perhaps ONE Genocide Day...all over the planet.

To remember ALL the victims of human madness, not just one

Good replacement for many of the hare-brained 'holidays' we have now.

[Behind the Aegis]

82. No, you didn't get the article.

This is limited to Britain. This was not a petition to the UN. Any "Genocide Day" being discussed from THIS article would only take place in the UK. You are advocating a world-wide one..fine. They are advocating dismantling a remembrance day in BRITAIN. The "Holocaust Remembrance Day" we are discussing here is not celebrated anywhere but the UK. Thus, if they are really interested in a truly Global Genocide Remembrance Day, they need to get to the UN.

[Maple]

83. but it's not limited to Britain

the wish has just surfaced here first

Holocaust remembrance day is world wide

[Behind the Aegis]

87. so I assume you are also against Nov 29th as well?

"In a massage on the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, observed on Nov. 29 every year, the UN chief said: "This Day of Solidarity is a day of mourning and a day of grief."" http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/30/eng20021130_107712.shtml

Shouldn't it be just an International Day of Solidarity with Displaced/Occupied People?

[Maple]

89. Yup. Local stuff

You wanna go for a universal day of freedom for all of earth's people, I'm fine with that.

Because not everybody declared 'independence' or 'solidarity'

[Jim Sagle]

61. It's still not your call.

[Maple]

65. No, nor is it yours

[Behind the Aegis]

36. It wouldn't matter.

The reasons by this odious act is very clear! It is no different than saying February shouldn't be "Black History" Month because it might alienate extremist white youth. It should just be "Ethnic History" Month. :eyes:

[Maple]

40. Well that's local to the US

and if you want to celebrate black history month, more power to you.

Making say...Albania...celebrate black history month would be absurd.

The world could celebrate history month though, and make everyone familiar with the history of the human race...everyone.

Now THAT would be useful

[Behind the Aegis]

41. And this is local to Britian,

[Maple]

44. Which had no Jewish holocaust

[Behind the Aegis]

47. But does have survivors....

[Maple]

52. So does Fiji

[Behind the Aegis]

53. Then let them declare a day if they choose.

on edit...perhaps not, since Fiji has less than 100 Jews.

[Maple]

59. Yup, I agree. Universal Genocide Day

To remember everyone killed in madness

[Behind the Aegis]

63. That would come from the UN...

...that is not who is being asked to change the day.

[Maple]

67. Or anyone else

wanting a universal day

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Not Universal if limited to Britain

[Maple]

75. But it's not

nor should it be.

[Behind the Aegis]

78. But that is what THIS article is about.

[Maple]

80. Good for THIS article

because if the question has arisen in Britain, it will arise everywhere else

[Colorado Blue]

108. Britain was directly involved in WWII. The Holocaust has

had echoes within Britain, throughout Europe and Middle East, and as civilized people who stand against such horrors it is entirely appropriate for the British to remember the victims of the Holocaust.

Indeed, FORGETTING the Holocaust would be the real horror. And that, I think, is the precisely the point of those who object to this day.

[Maple]

109. Everybody was

which would be why they call it WORLD war II

Now how be we remember ALL who have fallen to holocausts?

[Colorado Blue]

113. I have no problem with establishing ANOTHER "genocide

victim remembrance day." But trying to wash away the stains of the Holocaust like this is simply appalling.

Apart from the victims of the Holocaust who weren't Jewish, and who deserve remembrance, we are talking about an entire culture which was absolutely destroyed - that of European Jewry. This was an amazingly rich, very old culture that contributed enormously to the intellectual and social life of Europe and it was repaid, after centuries of persecution, by being destroyed altogether. Over half the global Jewish population was deliberately killed. The Jewish people now number less than in the 1930's and we continue to live under an existential threat.

Now, apart from THAT issue, you say we are "all one race." Perhaps you would like to see all the distinctness and individuality and history of the world's people erased. But that's like clear-cutting a forest and replanting it with only one kind of tree. It is destructive, it's a denial of the marvelous diversity and richness of human history and human culture and besides IT IS OFFENSIVE AS HELL.

This is a totalitarian idea and I find it reactionary as well, an assault both on history and on human diversity and individuality, and I respectfully beg you to reconsider your position on this matter. Even if, someday, everybody VOLUNTARILY intermarries, eschews religion and culture and we all become "just human" - which wouldn't necessarily even be a good or productive idea - as diversity nutures creativity - our unique histories will remain and should be honored.

And likewise, we must NEVER FORGET our unique and terrible crimes, and we must NEVER allow ourselves to forget the horrible potential of bigotry unleashed.

[Maple]

114. We only need one day

Everyone has been a victim of attempted genocide at one time or another.

Ukranians, women, gays, heretics, First Nations (what Americans call Indians) Cambodians, Armenians....the list is endless unfortunately.

What is OFFENSIVE AS HELL is the idea that only one group gets to be 'official victim' and commemorated, and millions and millions of other people get ignored and forgotten.

[Colorado Blue]

134. The point of Holocaust remembrance is NOT to forget the

others. In fact sensitivity to the Holocaust enables people to see others more clearly, to identify with other persecuted groups. Increased sensitivity and awareness to others as well as a clear view of the past are noble goals.

That DOESN'T change the past 2,000 years of Jewish history and it doesn't erase the stain of the Holocaust nor its effects upon people living today.

I deplore these attempts to disappear us historically. This is especially wrong insofar as events in Europe directly affected and continue to affect, events in the Middle East as well as, as I say, the lives of people writing to you today on this discussion board. So the past isn't "outdated,", Holocaust remembrance isn't outdated, and I don't think any Jew is trying to claim official global victimhood. We ARE claiming our history, resent attempts to rewrite it, and I do protest conflation of REAL genocides, real Holocausts, with the Arab-Israeli conflict and the population EXPLOSION of the Palestinians.

Also, your point that others have suffered doesn't lessen the impact of the Holocaust in EUROPEAN history. Pol Pot may have been more recent but we are children of WESTERN civilization and whereas an increased global consciousness is a good and necessary thing, so is an awareness that OUR culture - Western culture - is still very much alive and well, and bears its own glories and its own tragic history. The Holocaust is part of that story.

So I would suggest, if you're concerned that other victims aren't being remembered, do what you can to remember them and see that others do as well. Just don't try to do it at the expense of Holocaust remembrance, or at the expense of the Jewish community. That is unfair and wrong.

[Maple]

136. It is specific to one group

and many many more than just one group have suffered attempted genocide.

I'm a global citizen...not just a 'child of western civilization'

As,in fact, are the Jews

[Jim Sagle]

58. It's not your call, Ace.

[Maple]

69. Not yours either

[Jim Sagle]

56. Sorry, but no one gives a fuck what you think.

Not actually sorry. Profoundly relieved is more like it.

[Maple]

71. Or you either I'm afraid

[Zhade]

145. I do.

Maple has a point.

[Brightmore]

20. I don't think these groups really care about remembering victims

of other genocide.

They just want to diminish the Jewish aspect of the Nazi Holocaust.

It's pretty obvious.

[Jim Sagle]

90. Luckily we have no one like that in this fine progressive community.

[Brightmore]

18. Actually the Holocaust Memorial Day in the UK is for all the victims

of the Holocaust. Not just Jews.

"Yom HaShoah" is the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day. It's a national holiday in Israel.

[FyurFly]

105. I also agree n/t

[JohnLocke]

22. I really don't give a shit about "extremists’ sense of alienation."

Excludesommittees argue that the special status of Holocaust Memorial Day fuels extremists’ sense of alienation because it "excludes" Muslims.

There's no excuse for being an extremist, and claiming that your extremist stems from vague, bogus emotions of "alienation" is the worst excuse of them all.

[Maple]

25. so why should they 'give a shit' about you?

[JohnLocke]

27. Wow, great one-liner.

The Ciceronian impact of your eloquence is overwhelming.

[Maple]

29. So was yours

[JohnLocke]

31. Wow, your posts keep getting more substantive.

I suppose the next one will be "nt."

[Maple]

32. So do yours

[Jim Sagle]

49. Obviously they don't. So why should I give a shit about THEM?

Or about anyone who excuses them or echoes them?

[Maple]

54. Because we are all the same race

Human beings.

And genocide shouldn't be acceptable ever again.

BY anyone. TO anyone

[fedsron2us]

37. Muslims were 'excluded' from the Holocaust

because the Nazis did not target them.

I am sure that if the fascists get to power again in Europe they will ensure that Muslims get 'included' next time.

[Maple]

48. Muslims have had a holocaust

just not from the Nazis.

Crusade anyone?

In the Middle Ages or right now??

[fedsron2us]

74. Crusades were not just directed at Muslims

Ask the Wends or any Albigensians if you can find them ?

[Maple]

77. all the more reason for a universal day

although muslims were the main 'beneficiaries' of the christian crusading.

[fedsron2us]

84. Just as Christian Europe was a beneficiary of Saracen assaults

in the period from the eighth to the tenth centuries AD including the sack of Rome in 846.

It just depends when you want to begin your history of oppressive and violent acts

[Maple]

85. Let's begin from the beginning hmmm?

with no excuses, or waffling or other such red herrings

[fedsron2us]

93. The point I am trying to make is that Holocaust memorial day

was specifically designed to remember those of all faiths and races who died in Nazi death camps in the Second World War which is an event still within the living memory of most Europeans. It was never intended to include the victims of all acts of inhumanity either before or since that time.

[Maple]

95. Which is now outdated

as any universal norm

[fedsron2us]

101. Why don't we have a 'Universal Victim Day '

when we can all gather around and feel sorry or guilty about which ever particular group, race or religion we felt had has suffered some form of injustice at any time or any place in human history. It would be completely meaningless but at least no one sensibilities would be offended. No unpleasant lessons would need to be learnt from the recent past and of course the human race could continue committing unspeakable acts of genocide just like it has always done.

[Maple]

103. I believe I already

suggested a Genocide Day.

And it wouldn't be 'meaningless' to anyone.

Because everyone has been hit by attempted genocide

[Colorado Blue]

110. OUTDATED? We are living with the consequences still.

I don't believe your insensitivity to this issue, and your sense that the remembrance of the Holocaust is outdated betrays a deep lack of historical sense and perspective.

[Maple]

111. Pol Pot was much more recent

WWII was over half a century ago

[Maple]

81. Holocaust Memorial Day is marked around the world

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/05/holocaust-memorial050505.html

and I'm afraid it's time for that to change.

To Global Genocide Day.

Because pretty much everybody has been marked for genocide at one time or another.

[Brightmore]

86. How about a universal national independence day

Because pretty much every country has declared independence at one time or another.

[Maple]

88. Sorry, no they haven't

but there are any number of universal holidays we could celebrate other than the dreary and outdated ones we have.

[Jim Sagle]

92. Get yourself a six pack and knock yourself out, Ace.

[Maple]

96. My name is Maple

and I never drink beer. Sorry

[Jim Sagle]

91. Badda bing, badda boom.

[Maple]

97. Cha cha cha

[Tinoire]

94. Don't ditch it- just expand it to make it truly reflect the spirit

Don't ditch it- just expand it to make it truly reflect the spirit of "Never Again". Expand it to include ALL the people who have been and are being genocided and that includes the Palestinians. Then maybe we might see how sincere the world really is in honoring its spirit.

Besides, nobody suggested it be "ditched". What a deliberately misleading and inflammatory title.

[Maple]

98. Agreed

Unfortunately, the Earth doesn't have just ONE victim of genocide

[Brightmore]

99. I disagree

Like I said above, the UK Memorial Day is meant to remember the victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

There are plenty of other days of the year to remember victims of other genocide.

It's like saying the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People (November 29) should be expanded to every displaced and oppressed people. November 29 is a special day to honor the Palestinians.

[Maple]

102. It's universal I'm afraid

NOT restricted to Britain

And we don't need a day for each and every separate group.

We have more people than days unfortunately

[Tinoire]

138. Why compartmentalize the remembrance of injustice?

Compartmentalizing it only serves to compartmentalize justice.

Until the day we see ALL human beings as victims of other human being's greed then it is a LOST cause. And if one day has to be so special that it cannot be shared with other victims of injustice then that right there fortifies the perception that Jews think they're special.

Isn't it time we got past that and on to the business of justice for EVERYONE? Compartmentalized justice. Compartmentalized remembrances and too many see the other victims as being in a different, lesser category.


The day the Israelis go mourn the victims of the Holocaust right next to the Palestinians weeping for the victims of the Nabka and the day the Americans go mourn the Native Americans with the same prayers they make for the American soldiers born butchering innocents in Baghdad, well then, that day we might take a giant step towards peace.

Until that day, imo, it's nya nya nya fights of we suffered more and the injustices get carried one by people blinded by compartmentalization.

[Colorado Blue]

115. The Palestinians are NOT being genocided. That is absurd.

The Palestinian population is booming. Some genocide. The suggestion is ludicrous as well as slanderous.

I've seen articles claiming this on the 'net, accusing the Israelis of the "slow genocide" of the Palestinians in the camps in Lebanon and elsewhere - people whose numbers have INCREASED from a few hundred thousand in 1948 to over four million today. I would like to point out that nobody is keeping the Palestinians in those camps except the Arabs. But apart from that a population which has increased by over 400% can't be said to be the victim of a genocide. A genocide by definition means the attempted extermination of a people - not its manifold INCREASE.

SOME GENOCIDE. The Jews should have been so lucky. The global JEWISH population was more than cut in half during the Holocaust and is some 2,000,000 less today than it was in the 1930's. THAT is genocide. It is estimated that, without the persecutions of the past 2,000 years, the Jewish population today would measure some 125 million, as opposed to some 12 million plus.

THAT is genocide, and its long-term result.

Indeed, the Palestinians - like many developing peoples - face a greater long-term threat from overpopulation and its economic consequences, famine, drought, poverty and disease, combined with a current lack of economic planning and infrastructure, than they do from the Israelis or any other military enemy.

WAR and GENOCIDE are not the same things. I am not minimizing the difficulties in I/P. But there is a big difference between deliberately trying to wipe an entire people off the map, which is what happened during the Holocaust, with the perhaps 20,000 Palestinians killed in almost 60 years of non-stop war between the Arabs and the Israelis. This does not make for a genocide. Saddam killed that many people in a day.

This continous whining about how the Palestinians are being "genocided" when their population is increasing enormously, is ridiculous and offensive as well as illogical.

[Maple]

117. The Jews weren't either

Lots of Jews in the world today.

Genocide can only be attempted...it has never been fully successful

At least in the modern era.

Carthaginians might dispute that.

Or Beothuk

[Colorado Blue]

122. Oh for G*d's sake.

I'm sorry that we weren't all living within Hitler's grasp. He did, along with his friend the Mufti of Jerusalem, have plans for the rest. Fortunately for us, he lost the war. Many people are sad about that to this day.

But that doesn't mean the desire to finish the job isn't alive and well, and in some corners of the world most actively protesting Holocaust remembrance: the Middle East. One of the Iranian mullahs has proposed that a nuclear war could be launched against Israel, and wipe it out, because the Muslims number 1.3 billion and most would survive the retalitatory strikes, whereas the 6 million Israelis would be dead. Threats against Israel have been constant and existential since the very day of its foundation. And yes, the word "jew" has been specifically used, not just the political "Israel". By the same token, Holocaust denial is extremely popular in the Middle East and this is just another attempt to wipe out history - it happens to be in Britain but it's actually quite widespread.

Even more frighteningly, there is an active contingent of Nazis in the US and traditional antisemitism is resurfacing in Europe - the very cradle of the Holocaust. We should NEVER allow this crime to be forgotten. It is all too likely to occur again.

I think, a little reality check is in order? Please do some reading about the Nazis, the Neo-Nazis, and the Islamofascists, including Haj Amin al Husseini. The threat is alive and well and reading your posts gives me little comfort.

PS, I'm glad you think 12 million is "a lot". Thanks, we'd feel better about it if folks didn't continue to threaten the survivors.

[Maple]

125. There is hatred against many people

Jews have no exclusive rights to the term 'genocide'

Nor to the idea of being 'most hated'

Or to the word 'victim'

[Colorado Blue]

132. True. We do have a right to the remembrance of the Holocaust,

since was a shattering event to our people but also a horrible event in the history of Western civilization. Attempts to dilute, dismiss or disregard this are attempts to rewrite history. They're wrong.

What happened in Cambodia, what is happening in Sudan, what occurred in Rwanda - all were terrible.

They DON'T change the Holocaust, or mitigate the devastation to our community, and nor should you or anybody else attempt to dismiss that fact.

If you want to spread awareness of other crimes against humanity - fine. I think that's a good idea. But don't do it at the expense of Holocaust history and remembrance.

[Maple]

133. By all means remember it

Just don't expect everyone to remember ONLY that attempt.

There have been many in our history.

Unfortunately

[Tinoire]

149. The Palestinian population is "booming"

Wow. Just what the Nazis said about the Jews. Booming. Over-running us. Eating up all our lebensraum.

How incredibly offensive.

No wonder you can't bear the thought of seeing Palestinians mourned right alongside the victims of another vile racist ideology.

Thank you Coastie. Thank you for giving me the impetus to write a letter supporting Britain's movement to commemorate ALL deaths and not treat any one group as any more special than any other. I will explain that my support for that movement is in order to help stamp out ALL vestiges of Hitler's racist ideology for ALL people in honor of those who perished during the Holocaust- Communists, Jews, Catholics, Gypsies because apparently the lesson is LOST.

I'm appalled to hear you call it whining :puke: 20,000 Palestinians my butt. And Saddam Saddam killed that many in one day! The same day he threw the babies out of the incubators right?

Yeah, it's all the Palestinian's fault. The Germans said it was all the fault of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto too. Then they made up ludicrous stories blaming it all on typhoid.

What an incredibly offensive and sad past. It is NO wonder your heart cannot bear the thought that Palestinian be mourned alongside the victims of the Nazi Holocaust. They don't really exist in your heart do they? And they certainly don't exist as people in the eyes of many Israelis. Dogs. Cock-roaches. All those endearing terms.

THANK GOD THERE IS AN ISRAELI PEACE MOVEMENT THAT DOESN'T GET ITS TALKING POINTS FROM AMERICANS.

[Jim Sagle]

116. Palestinians are NOT being "genocided." Their population is rising

all the time.

[Maple]

118. In spite of Israel's best efforts

however, genocide has never been fully successful

unless as I say you count people in history like the Carthaginians or Beothuk

[Brightmore]

121. "In spite of Israel's best effort"

Is that why the Palestinian population is exploding? Israel must be doing a horrible job of mass murdering them. The Palestinians will eventually outnumber the Israelis.

Your bias and agenda is as clear as the groups mentioned in original article posted.

[Maple]

123. I just said that

'in spite of Israel's best efforts'

If you're going to repeat everything I say, you won't get very far.

And is there some reason I can't sympathize with Palestinians? Is it illegal or something?

Hint: This is NOT an Israeli/Jewish exclusive file. That is the whole point of this thread.

Everyone has been involved in an attempted genocide at one time or another.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

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[Colorado Blue]

129. REALLY???????? eom

[Maple]

131. Really.

[Jim Sagle]

140. That's not your call either. Those on this board will make up their minds

about you, just as they make up their minds about everyone.

[Maple]

142. Or yours

and I'm not concerned with the opinions of others.

Just the truth

[Jim Sagle]

139. That's a LIE! Israel has NEVER tried to kill all the Palestinians, and

you GODDAMN well know it!!!!!

[Maple]

141. Ask the Palestinians

how they see it.

Especially when numbers are compared.

[Jim Sagle]

143. Ask them yourself. Any Palestinian who says Israel is trying to kill

them all is deluded or lying.

[Maple]

144. Same thing the Jews said about the Nazis

and no one believed them

[Behind the Aegis]

146. self-delete

no point

[Jim Sagle]

147. Truth is what it is, not what anyone says it is.

Germany committed genocide, Israel didn't. End. Of. Fucking. Pointless. Disgusting. Filthy. Discussion.

P.E.R.I.O.D.

[Maple]

148. And no one group has a monopoly on suffering

It's made up much of our human history in fact.

And THAT'S the truth...sadly.

[Kralizec]

104. I wonder. Will there someday be a day to remember the victims of the U.S?

n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

137. August 6 would be appropriate

:nuke:

[muriel_volestrangler]

106. For everyone's information, 27th January is already also

the European Day against Genocide.

http://www.holocaustmemorialday.gov.uk/events/whatson/eventdetails.asp?eventID=238

So, this change would hardly be earth-shattering.

[Colorado Blue]

119. It would be to the Jewish people. Think about that. Perhaps,

since our numbers are so small, we don't count for much in the great global, United Nations scheme of things - especially to those of you who are too young to have had people fight and die in that war or in that Holocaust, or to whom it's just an abstraction, who haven't found a mate because of the tininess of the remaining community, who haven't held a hand tattooed with blue numbers, or who have no sense of the history of the great Jewish community that was destroyed by Hitler.

Indeed I sense an almost complete lack of empathy in many of these posts, as well as a distorted sense of history, plus a lack of ability to understand what a "genocide" really means. But even that is beside the point.

The fact that WE would be hurt ought to be enough - especially for people who like to think of themselves as liberals and progressives, and who by definition stand in defence of minorities.

[Maple]

120. It already has been

to many groups of people.

Jews have never been the only victims of attempted genocide.

[NorthernSpy]

126. I suspect that the REAL objection is not from Moslems or deniers...

... or even people who want to memorialize all of the world's genocides equally, but rather from those who feel that government-sponsored holocaust memorials are inappropriate for either or both of two reasons: first, the acts that constituted the holocaust did not occur in Britain (and if Britian really wants to memorialize anyones victims, perhaps they should start with their own); and second, the UK waged war upon the foreign power that did commit those acts (and therefore, this effort itself demonstrated sufficiently the country's attitude toward the Axis and its actions). Or something like that.


Just a guess...

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[Lithos]

150. Locking

The personal innuendos have gotten way out of hand.

L-

[Lithos]

151. Locking

Thread has grown inflammatory.