Palestinians set synagogue ablaze in former Gaza settlement

[Brightmore]

Palestinians set synagogue ablaze in former Gaza settlement
Haaretz
Aluf Benn and Amos Harel
September 12, 2005

Palestinians moved into the abandoned Gaza Strip settlement of Morag before dawn on Monday after Israel Defense Forces troops pulled out of the area and set the synagogue on fire. Huge flames leapt into the sky.

In another synagogue, gunmen climbed on the roof and waved flags of militant groups, including Hamas, shouting "God is great."

Just hours earlier, the Palestinian Interior Ministry spokesman said the Palestinian Authority will destroy the synagogues left behind in Gaza by evacuating IDF troops.

All remaining buildings in the evacuated Jewish settlements will be destroyed except for the hothouses, the spokesman, Tawfiq Abu Khoussa, told The Associated Press.

Earlier in the day, the Israeli government voted not to demolish the synagogues. The Palestinians have expressed dismay at the Israeli decision, saying it puts them in an impossible position because they may be criticized for destroying houses of worship but at the same time they need the space for their development plans for post-Israel Gaza.

Full story

[Scurrilous]

1. Why did the Palistinians do this?

'We will reactivate synagogues'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3140691,00.html

<snip>

"Heads of the Yesha Council praised Sunday's government decision not to destroy Gush Katif synagogues before pulling the army out of Gaza, saying "Jewish spirit managed to breach the hermetic wall surrounding the hearts of government ministers.

"The synagogues will form the base of a renewed settlement movement and will once again become active prayer houses," they said."

[Behind the Aegis]

2. So basically they are saying...Jews will never be in Gaza again?

[Brightmore]

3. What's wrong with Jews in Gaza?

[Scurrilous]

4. "The synagogues will form the base of a renewed settlement movement"..

Nothing wrong with Jews living in Gaza. But a 'renewed settlement movement?' I seriously doubt any Palestinian wishes to see the settlement movement renewed in Gaza.

[Colorado Blue]

17. Hamas is defending the destruction of the synagogues,

saying this will prevent Jews from ever coming into Gaza again. One memorable quote: We don't want any wailing walls on our sacred land.

This speaks real well for the tolerant society I keep hearing about.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. What happened to being tolerant of religious extremist beliefs?

Hamas is no different in its extremism than the extremist religious settlers that you recently told me I should have respect for. Newsflash: extremists, whether they're Hamas or extremist settlers are going to say disgusting things...

btw, Hamas is NOT indicative of Palestinian society any more than the extremist religious settlers are indicative of Israeli society. That sort of comment should be offensive to any progressive at DU...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

32. VC, over 1/3 of the seats taken in the recent election were

won by Hamas.

I want to believe that their followers are a tiny minority but I'm very concerned that this isn't the case. They are gaining political power. One hopes that this will, as it has with the IRA, turn them into peaceful politicians and bureaucrats, and modify their position as they assume the burdens of running towns, cities and eventually a state.

The danger remains, however, that their extremism will become institutionalized and their POV become the goal of the state - with the people solidly behind them.

I don't think that these concerns, nor an awareness of the political power being gained by Hamas, is non-progressive. One cannot ignore the votes they've won.

[Englander]

36. About the IRA -

--"One hopes that this will, as it has with the IRA, turn them into peaceful politicians and bureaucrats,"

The IRA,as the full, unabbreviated name suggests,are not
'peaceful politicians & bureaucrats'. That would be Sinn Fein;
they're the politicians. The IRA are the militants.

The IRA's campaign of illegality is not over yet -
ask the directors of the Northern Bank & the McCartney family
if you think it is.

________________________________

Last Updated: Friday, 7 January, 2005, 15:35 GMT

Police say IRA behind bank raid


The IRA has been blamed for the multi-million pound Northern Bank raid in Belfast.

Chief Constable Hugh Orde said that organisation was responsible after meeting key members of the Policing Board on Friday.

The Northern Bank has now reassessed the amount stolen from its head office on 20 December as £26.5m.

The IRA said it was not involved in the bank robbery and Sinn Fein leaders have said they believe the denial.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4154657.stm

_________________________________________

Last Updated: Wednesday, 14 September 2005, 18:08 GMT 19:08 UK

McCartney intimidation 'growing'


The family of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney have said the campaign of intimidation against them by the IRA is intensifying.

They said republicans were responsible for beating up a close friend of their murdered brother on Monday.

Robert's sister Paula also said republicans were using the distraction of recent loyalist violence to step up their attempts to drive them out.

Mr McCartney, 33, was stabbed outside a Belfast pub in January.

His friend Jeff Commander had his head split open when he was attacked in the Short Strand area in east Belfast.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4247062.stm

[Colorado Blue]

54. Thank you. I appreciate the correction and the information. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Some more corrections...

I'm hoping that some facts may change yr stated opinion about Palestinians in general:

Not only were these local elections, but they were local elections for 64 out of a total of 509 local authorities.

"More than 400,000 Palestinians go to the polls today for the second round of local elections in 28 local authorities in the Palestinian Authority territories in the West Bank and Gaza, including Qalqilyah and Bethlehem in the West Bank and Rafah in Gaza.

The elections are taking place as Fatah and Hamas struggle for the leadership and after Hamas won control over half the 36 local authorities where elections took place in December and January."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=572498

"There are 509 local authorities in the Palestinian territory.."

http://www.pcbs.org/news/LocalSur05e.pdf

Add to that the blatantly obvious fact that Hamas went so well because of a backlash against the corruption in Fatah, as well as Hamas being a provider of welfare, and it's clear that anyone who tries to insist that Palestinians voted for Hamas because they want to see Israel 'driven into the sea' and that those results are indicative of the entire Palestinian population being terrorist supporters is wrong...

Violet...

[barb162]

38. Hamas appears to be quite indicative of Palestinian society

Newsflash:

As Colorado Blue points out, they won a fairly large number (1/3) of seats in the last election. Why do you suppose so many Palestinians voted for a militant party

[Englander]

40. Because they're living under Occupation.

That tends to fu a society,to the nth degree.

That 'last election' , btw was for the local councils,
not for the Presidency,or the national Legislative body.
Just so yer aware.

[barb162]

43. I am aware it was for the local elections , however,

I am also noting that the "gatherings" of Hamas speakers were attracting thousands and Fatah's group gathered a few hundred people or so. Little things like that tell a lot don't you think? Growing chaos seems to be the order of the day

[barb162]

53. 38% of Palestinians polled think the Intifada should continue

check the "poll" thread I posted Wednesday.

This tracks pretty well with the way Hamas got votes in local elections. It is a significant segment of the population that wants violence to continue against Israel.

Here's the link to the article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4242126.stm

[Englander]

57. End the Occupation - end the support for Hamas.

--"It is a significant segment of the population that wants violence to continue against Israel"

The longer the Occupation continues,the greater the support
for Hamas. If Israel continues to build settlements in the West
Bank, & E. Jerusalem, continues the policy of 'apartheid',then
the electoral winners will be Hamas. And who wants that to happen?

[Violet_Crumble]

61. What Occupation???

;)

[barb162]

78. I think you have this wrong.

"The longer the Occupation continues,the greater the support
for Hamas."

Hamas is not interested in peace with Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. No it doesn't..

A real newsflash:

read this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x100420#100705

[barb162]

80. Yes it does

Reality check newsflash: 38% of Palestinians think the Intifada should continue

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4242126.stm

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Try following the discussion..

I was addressing the false claim that 1/3 of Palestinians had voted for Hamas, therefore it was okay to make sweeping negative generalisations about them.

What the fuck does a poll that says 38% of Palestinians think the Intifada should continue have to do with the recent local elections?? Do you think supporting the Intifada means supporting terrorism or something bizarre along those lines?

Violet...

[barb162]

88. Try following my points

There's no false claim. Local election percentages track quite closely to the independent poll percentages, giving the poll additional credence. The BBC link I provided on the poll clearly indicates a significant percentage of the Palestinians think the Intifada should continue. Terrorist tactics are a huge part of the Intifada.
DO you not think Hamas and other militants have huge support among the Palestinians?

[Violet_Crumble]

94. Intifada does NOT equal terrorism...

Which is about the only point yr trying to make...

Saying that 1/3 of Palestinians voted for Hamas means that Palestinian society can be judged as one where most if not all of them support terrorism was a false claim. Seeing as how yr ignoring the post where I corrected CB, here it is for you to hopefully read:

I'm hoping that some facts may change yr stated opinion about Palestinians in general:

Not only were these local elections, but they were local elections for 64 out of a total of 509 local authorities.

"More than 400,000 Palestinians go to the polls today for the second round of local elections in 28 local authorities in the Palestinian Authority territories in the West Bank and Gaza, including Qalqilyah and Bethlehem in the West Bank and Rafah in Gaza.

The elections are taking place as Fatah and Hamas struggle for the leadership and after Hamas won control over half the 36 local authorities where elections took place in December and January."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?ite...

"There are 509 local authorities in the Palestinian territory.."

http://www.pcbs.org/news/LocalSur05e.pdf

Add to that the blatantly obvious fact that Hamas went so well because of a backlash against the corruption in Fatah, as well as Hamas being a provider of welfare, and it's clear that anyone who tries to insist that Palestinians voted for Hamas because they want to see Israel 'driven into the sea' and that those results are indicative of the entire Palestinian population being terrorist supporters is wrong...

I've always supported the Intifada, as I have this strangely unprogressive view that an occupied people do have the right to resist their occupiers. If expressing support of the Intifada equalled support of attacks on Israeli civilians, I would have been shown the door long ago. I haven't, so that should speak for itself to anyone intent on labelling most if not all of the Palestinian population as supporters of terrorism...


Violet...

[barb162]

97. Why are you stating the blatantly obvious?

EVERYONE KNOWS the word intifada does not mean terrorism PER SE. But there is still a huge segment of the intifada that does believe in terrorism and acts out on it.

Aat the same time you keep denying the blatantly obvious, that extremists are a huge portion of the Palestinian population. Admit it already, Abbas knows he will most likely have a civil war on his hands if he arrests the huge numbers of militants. That's why he doesn't move against them and there's always a stalemate.


The intifada can be turned into PEACEFUL resistance. Peaceful resistance can go a lot farther than violence and terrorism.

[Violet_Crumble]

99. Because you were attempting to equate the two...

..in an attempt to claim that the vast majority of Palestinians are supporters of terrorism. And yr sentence 'there is still a huge segment of the intifada that does believe in...' makes absolutely no sense at all. The Intifada is an uprising against the occupation. The thing doesn't have segments or card-carrying members, and the Intifada doesn't believe in anything anymore than something like Christmas does...

I honestly don't think you have any clue what the Intifada is. Peaceful resistance was part of both Intifadas, but of course some who love to fixate on their vision of Palestinians as nothing more than drooling suicide-bombers tend to ignore that aspect of things...

Violet...

[barb162]

100. Huge segment does not = vast majority and who ever said it did

Stop (once and for all) misstating what I write.

A huge segment of the population is one that is enough to cause a civil war if Abbas moves against them. And no kidding these militants don't have cards, etc., gee, good thing you mentioned that they aren't getting defined benefits also.

And likewise, for the rest of the post, I honestly think you don't have a clue either.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Let me use yr exact words then...

...and rephrase my comment 'Because you were attempting to equate the two in an attempt to claim that a huge segmentof Palestinians are supporters of terrorism.' Happier now?

fyi, I did not misstate what you wrote. I remember a now departed DUer who used to accuse others of misstating him because he said there was a huge difference between 'many' and 'most' and 'a majority'. Back then it was a splitting hairs tactic and that opinion hasn't changed now.

What don't you think I have a clue about, barb? I explained to you why I think yr knowledge of what the Intifada is was sorely lacking, so maybe you could expand a bit and make me think yr comment is something other than a 'yeah! well so are you! nah nah nah!' comment?

Violet...

[barb162]

45. It's one thing to be extremely devout, it's another thing to want

destruction of other people. Are the Hamas leaders not openly espousing the destruction of Israel? Hamas is quite different in its extremism than the settlers. The settlers left. What happened with the two state solution?

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Hamas and the extremist settlers are the same...

Or are you now going to try to say that Israeli religious extremists who MURDER Palestinians, steal from them, and openly espouse their expulsion from their own land are merely extremely devout and didn't actually do any of those nasty things that they do?

There is no difference in the extremism between Israeli and Palestinian extremists, which is why most folk view them as extremists. I've got nothing but contempt for those who try to make excuses for extremists on either side...

Violet...

[barb162]

79. Hamas and the extremist settlers are not the same.

Newsflash: Did you see any Israeli suicide bombers lately walking to a bus or into a restaurant?

[Violet_Crumble]

83. Another difference you should point out, barbie...

One lot are ayrabs and the other are Israelis. Therefore they can't be the same!! Are you seriously trying to tell people that unless a murder is carried out by a suicide bomber, then it's not as bad or carried out by just as extreme a bunch of people? I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, but murderers pick between a variety of methods to murder, and not one of those methods excuses what they do. I'm totally disgusted that you'd sit here on a progressive board and say that extremist settlers who murder Palestinians aren't the same when it comes to extremism as Hamas etc...

Violet...

[barb162]

90. Your use of "ayrabs" is incredibly distasteful and insulting to Arabs

and to anyone else on a progressive board. And I'm totally disgusted that you'd sit here on a progressive board and use that term in any context.

News Flash, Crumbie: I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, but murderers openly espousing and then carrying out terrorist attacks for years on end are a special breed of murderers.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. Whooosh....

Oh-kay. That one went several miles over yr head...

You didn't bother explaining why yr giving extremist settlers who've murdered Palestinian civilians a pass solely because they don't use the same methods of murder as suicide bombers. Not that you answer any questions put to you, but if that trend changes, can you explain why you think that extremist settlers haven't been openly espousing for years the murder of Palestinians? See, they fall into yr 'special breed of murderers' category...


Violet...

[barb162]

96. Whoosh, things are going way over yours, not mine.

Extremist settlers is a misnomer. What extremist settlers; are you talking about the people who left Gaza? Since when is talking about something (even if they did, which I wouldn't know one way or another) equated into acting on something. This is differentiated from Paslestinian militants of various factions and groups, who not only talk about it, but incite it and then act out on it. Big, big difference.

[Violet_Crumble]

98. You don't think settlers who murder Palestinians are extremists??

What is it then? Merely harmless devoutness? As long as they advocate and carry out the murder of Palestinian civilians, that's fine??

I've already explained more than one time that there's a big, big difference between the mainly secular settlers and the extremist elements who stayed and fought till the end in Gaza. It's the latter group who I'm talking about. Y'know, the sort who attempted to very publicly lynch a Palestinian youth..

You'd best go read through the Ha'aretz archives. Even yr hero Ariel Sharon knows they're extremists and a danger to Israel itself.

From B'Tselem:

Over, the years settler attacks on Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have become routine. During the al-Aqsa intifada, the number of attacks have increased substantially.

The violence takes various forms. The most severe, of course, results in the loss of life. From the beginning of the intifada, in late September 2000, to the end of 2004, Israeli civilians have killed thirty-four Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. In some of these cases, the Israelis acted in life-threatening situations, such as when armed Palestinians infiltrated Israeli settlements. In many cases, however, the Israeli civilians did not act in self-defense. This occurred, for example, in those instance in which Israelis chased stone-throwers and fired at them as a form of “punishment.” Acts of this kind violate the penal law and the open-fire regulations applying to civilians.

Israelis, individually or in organized groups, carry out the attacks on Palestinians and Palestinian property to frighten, deter, or punish them, using weapons and ammunition they received from the IDF. The settlers sometimes act in retaliation for violence committed by Palestinians, and sometimes not.

The actions against Palestinians include blocking roadways, so as to impede Palestinian life and commerce. The settlers also shoot solar panels on roofs of buildings, torch automobiles, shatter windowpanes and windshields, destroy crops, uproot trees, abuse merchants and owners of stalls in the market. Some of these actions are intended to force Palestinians to leave their homes and farmland, and thereby enable the settlers to gain control of them.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Settler_Violence/Nature_of_the_Violence.asp

And what would you call the settlers in this article, if not extremists?

Among The Settlers

Have you never heard of the Hilltop Youth? Or are you going to try to say they're not extremists?

The thing is that just like their Palestinian counterparts, the Israeli extremists pose a danger to their own people by hating everyone and everything that's not exactly the same as them, and by caring much less about any law they're held to than in peddling their hate and violence. Sorry, Barb, but yr attempts to claim there's no extremist settlers is just as ridiculous as anyone trying to claim there's no extremists amongst the Palestinians...

Violet...

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. "Extremist settlers is a misnomer."

That was what you said, barb. Stop screaming at me in caps and making false accusations, barb. It comes across as appearing hysterical...

You have in more than one post attempted to deny that the extremist settlers incite and murder Palestinian civilians, and that they're not the mirror image of the extremists amongst the Palestinians. A reaction of someone genuinelly interested in constructive discussion would have been to read the information about the extremist settlers that I'd posted, and then to clarify their own views given that information. When someone discards that sort of information because they claim they'd be wasting their time to read it, it's a pretty fair clue that the person isn't really interested in discussing the conflict in any genuine way, possibly because that information may not gel with their own views. Which means that I really should take the advice of my previous sig-line here and be more selective about who I bother replying to in future...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

107. "Extremist settler is a misnomer" - part II

A video about 'devout' settlers in the Hebron area who attack small children on their way to school. Fancy anyone trying to call them extremists!!

http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/200509_Southern_Hebron_Hills.asp

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

85. I just have to say...

:rofl:

[Englander]

86. Now that's not nice -

Don't laugh at the silly "newbie",who doesn't know how to reply
to the correct message (post #17 is by CB)& who clearly had to think
long & hard to come up with the *witticism*.So much so,that they forgot
about punctuation, & coherence, & logic, & knowledge,&tc, &tc,&tc.

:eyes:







(Yes,I know what you were actually rofling at).

[barb162]

92. punctuation and all that other crap, fuggettaboutit

It was funny, skinheads and preachers...BWAHAHA

[barb162]

91. me too!

[Violet_Crumble]

87. What is it with the inability to read thing happening?

Does the word EXTREMIST magically vanish when it comes to extremist settlers? The ones who murder Palestinians, advocate an Arab-free Greater Israel, and who steal and attack Palestinians are no different than Hamas in their extremism...

You'd best pick up yr act. You even got bta laughing at ya...

Violet...

[barb162]

93. Welcome, Uberbrenner

[Englander]

103. Why are you talking to a ghost? n/t

[barb162]

104. wasn't a ghost when I posted... I guess that was a one post

person. hmmm

[Colorado Blue]

5. Another article on this topic:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050912/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

MORAG, Gaza Strip - Thousands of triumphant Palestinians poured into abandoned Jewish settlements early Monday, setting empty synagogues on fire and shooting in the air, as the last Israeli soldier left the Gaza Strip, completing Israel's pullout after 38 years of occupation.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly as gunmen raised flags of militant groups in the settlements and crowds smashed what was left in the ruins or walked off with doors, window frames, toilets and scrap metal. Initial plans by Palestinian police to bar the crowds from the settlements for the first few hours quickly disintegrated, illustrating the weakness of the Palestinian security forces and concerns about growing chaos after Israel's departure.

Gaza's night sky turned orange early Monday as fires roared across the settlements. Women ululated, teens set off fireworks and crowds chanted "God is great."

snip

[Scurrilous]

6. It's an ugly scene...

...Israel should have taken down the synagogues like they did the other settlement structures. Leaving them intact for the Palestinians to destroy only feeds religous hatred.

[Colorado Blue]

7. I think the Israelis were loathe to destroy synagogues. That

is just too painful. It was bad enough to force the expulsion of Jews from their homes, in view of the history of expulsion after expulsion after expulsion. But for Jews to destroy synagogues would have been too much.

It would have been better for the Palestinians to show a modicum of respect and leave the synagogues intact, even with with the eventual goal of welcoming Jewish people to live in their midst.

Or, they could have used them somehow, or demolished them in some orderly fashion. This sends altogether the wrong message. And I don't think the Israelis should be blamed for creating religious hatred and intolerance. Trust me - it already exists.

I can't help but wonder what the response would be if Jews were to burn mosques and celebrate wildly over the smoking ruins?

[pelsar]

8. the israeli govt were playing a game....

the palestenians wouldnt/couldnt keep the synagogues intack, its there land and they dont have to preserve monuments to the settlers or israel.....this way the israeli govt gets to show "how barbaric the palestenains are.

more so for the settlers the burning synagugues gets to remind us "kristal night in germany".....


a cynical game by the israeli govt

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Thanks for pointing that out, pelsar...

I wish I could find the Ha'aretz article I read about it this morning, but it said basically that the issue of the deconsecrated synagogues was a last ditch gasp from the extremists in the settler movement to draw sympathy for them and do a rewind on the disengagement. And the article also said that there was some cynicism involved when it came to the decision of the Israeli govt...

This bit isn't aimed at you, btw, because I know you don't think that way, but at others who will be reading. The only way someone could take issue over the synagogues being dismantled or destroyed is if they believe that Gaza should be part of Israel and the Palestinians have no claim over their own land. Anyone who thinks that way would of course ignore the blatantly obvious fact that this is the end of the occupation of Gaza and anything left behind of the settlements is a symbol of that occupation and isn't going to be looked on benignly. If the boot were on the other foot and it was Israeli's who were in the shoes of the Palestinians, things wouldn't be any different...

Violet...

[pelsar]

10. on TV last night

the synagogues were trashed by the settlers...everything take out...lights fixtures bookshelves ...everything...there really wasnt anything left except for some walls.

[Coastie for Truth]

11. DHIMMI

Notwithstanding the PR move that was good for the Saudi economy --- and doesn't mean a thing without an end to the poisonous cancer of ad hominem dhimmi - the employment discrimination (far from the ME), the denial of visas for technical conferences at King Fahd University, denial of citizenship to Mizrachi and Sephardi former citizens.

This practical, phyical act of dhimmi shows it all.

See the locked thread - it's called "ethnic cleansing" and "apartheid."

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Thanks for playing...

Not one single word of that post had anything to do with the topic of the thread being discussed...

Violet...

p.s - I saw the locked thread and some of the posts were imo vile. Both Tinoire and Maple were some of the voices of reason in a thread full of hatred and intolerance...

[eyl]

28. You consider

Accusing Israel of attempted genocide to be reasonable?

[Jim Sagle]

50. Obviously she does.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I didn't realise that was the topic of the locked thread...

Shame on me. I could have saved myself time and just read one post and not bothered with the many others that were there. I don't agree that what happened in 1948 was attempted genocide - I see it more as ethnic cleansing, but I'm not sure on the intent due to Plan D being interpreted in different ways. But as to whether I find claims of attempted genocide reasonable? I find it no more reasonable than the claims made regularly in this forum by some in the past that attacks on Israel is attempted genocide....

Darn it. I just noticed Jimbo's already taken it upon himself to tell you what I think. Shame he always gets it so wrong :)

Violet...

[eyl]

72. I wasn't talking about the thread as a whole

but on your characterization of the posts of specific posters there as "reasonable".

[Violet_Crumble]

74. But I was talking about the thread as a whole...

Which is why I said their posts were reasonable...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

33. So ad hominem dhimmi is totally irrelevant

to act of burning synagogues? I think it shows a collective sociopathy in an exceedingly narrow minority of some members of the Palestinian body politic.

But, you're entitled to your opinion.

G'day.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. My opinion is yr posts are irrelevant to the topic...

When you actually want to lay off on the dhimmi hot-key and discuss the topic of the thread, let me know and I'll be there with bells on! :)

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

69. And I would say you are avoiding the core humanitarian issue

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Nope, I've been discussing the topic of this thread...

Care to join in?

[Coastie for Truth]

75. I am not evading the core humanitarian issues --

[Colorado Blue]

34. Hatred and intolerance? I'm sorry but the attitudes expressed

by Certain People still have me shaking, as did the twisting of MY words and intent by a person whom you mentioned.

It has become an unfortunate problem in this forum for the words of anybody who stands up for the rights of Jews, for the necessity of not "revising" history, or who defends the people of Israel, or who expresses serious and rational concern for the economic future of the Palestinian people - which includes the quite serious problem faced by a growing population vs. space/resources/economic infrastructure and jobs, to be cast in the role of an intolerant, genocidal Nazi.

That's unforgiveable. Accusing Israel of genocide is unforgiveable and twisting honest and rational concern for the economic situation of the world's developing populations - including the Palestinians - with Hitler's assault on the Warsaw ghetto is sickening. Mocking the Holocaust because the genocide wasn't complete is sickening, and trying to deny its importance - not only the to the Jews who perished but also to the Catholics, Poles, Gypsies, gays, dissidents and other people who suffered and died - is simply unspeakable.

If you really READ my posts at least you will that I do not deny that OTHER massacres and abominations shouldn't be recalled. Indeed I think they'd better be, because as this planet gets more and more stressed we are in danger of seeing far worse. But to remember the other massacres doesn't mean we dilute the meaning of the Holocaust.

I personally am still physically sick from that little discussion and another that followed, in which "1,000 years of war" were promised should the Israelis not do exactly what the Palestinians want - right now - and curiously, the overwhelming demographic advantage of the Arabs was mentioned as the primary and enduring weapon to be used against Israel. Again, this is completely illogical considering that Israel is supposed to have "genocided" the Arabs, not to mention scary - considering that the rights of minority people and minority STATES need to be defended on this planet.

It's also terrifying to me that "1,000 years of war" is the only alternative to this problem - what ever happened to the idea of reconciliation? Of dealing rationally and peacefully with our problems and trying to work them out in a framework of non-violence? Whatever happened to the idea of COMPROMISE? Indeed, I think that COMPROMISE - Dershowitz' "Chekovian tragedy" - in which everybody is unhappy but everybody is ALIVE - is the only rational solution to the problems facing the Israelis and the Arabs. Suggesting that total war will ensue if one side doesn't perform exactly as the other demands is reckless and I can't believe you'd endorse a person who makes comments like this as a voice of reason.

Finally, I would like to ask that PLEASE, now, right now, is the time to stop twisting people's words, reading meanings into statements that aren't there, and accepting good intentions when they are present - which is almost 100% of the time. Similarly it is time to take stock of the damage that is being done to people, as well as to the cause of peace and compromise and reconciliation, by these constant assaults. It is damaging, unfair and wrong to misuse both words and intentions to create more propaganda.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Yep, I said hatred and intolerance...

I'm pretty sure that thread was locked for a damn good reason, and that elaborating on why some of the posts in that thread were extremely vile and disgusting is not what the mods would want...

Sorry, CB, but I've asked you more than once to define what you mean by 'supporters of Israel' etc, and you haven't. I can tell you this. I've done all those things you say and I've never once been cast in the role of a genocidal Nazi - not unless you mean something very different when you talk about supporting Israel and the rights of Jews?

On yr last comment about twisting people's words. I take it then that I won't have to put up with being accused of calling all settlers extremists when I specifically spoke of extremist settlers? Good...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

49. Gee, I missed that part.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. No surprises there...

[Jim Sagle]

76. But then I miss a lot of imaginery stuff. UFOs, chemtrails, etc.

Stuff that doesn't exist, I never seem to find.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. It;'s still sitting there...

And you were responsible for some of it...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

16. Really? And what about this article, also in Ha'aretz?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=destroying+synagogues&itemNo=624036

The Jewish soul



By Nadav Shragai

Last Update: 13/09/2005 01:51



"In the Jewish soul, we have always heard, the Jewish spark is waiting for it's day," wrote Nathan Alterman, in an almost axiomatic assumption ("Seventh Column," 1946).

"A Jew may be ignorant or learned, intelligent or stupid, friend or foe, the best or scum, but he cannot be a Jew without a Jewish soul," he wrote.

Alterman marveled at this, but assumed that "such is nature," for "this is the essence and character of this soul." Almost 60 years after he wrote those famous words, the Jewish State is questioning this assumption in its handling of the Gush Katif synagogues.

For what is more Jewish than a synagogue? And what could be more insane, unnatural and un-Jewish than the destruction of dozens of synagogues at the hands of the Jewish state? It is no longer the disengagement and the inexplicable, forced eviction that is at stake. Nor is it the fate of the dead of Gush Katif, whose exhumation is intended to preserve their honor. Even the attempt to portray this debate as another link in the ongoing conflict between religion and state is mistaken.

The united halakhic front presented by all the streams of Judaism - which preferred that the Palestinians burn the synagogues, just as long as Jews didn't - also reflects the Jewish soul. It reflects the great astonishment at the absence of something so self-evident from the discourse accompanying earlier cabinet debates on the synagogue affair.

Only a few governments in the world have dared to even think of destroying synagogues, even in places where there are few Jews, or no longer any Jews at all. Many states, even in the Muslim world, have invested resources in preserving synagogues, even inactive ones.

snip

The pictures of synagogues going up in flames in Morag, Neveh Dekalim, Kfar Darom and Netzarim singe the heart painfully. Ariel Sharon and Shaul Mofaz cannot shirk responsibility, but at least in direct terms - their hands and ours are clean of this atrocity. And the Palestinians? They are shown again in their true colors, or as Supreme Court Justice Edmond Levy put it, as evading the duty of any nation wishing to be considered enlightened.

In 1995, the tears of MK Menachem Porush made Yitzhak Rabin revoke his decision to hand over Rachel's Tomb to the Palestinians. In 2005, it was the tears of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, with a bit of help from Likud Central Committee members, which caused Mofaz to retract his intention to demolish the synagogues. Or perhaps it was - let us wish it were - at the very last moment, the Jewish soul.

***


The "game" is only part of the story. You cannot dismiss the spiritual argument.

(Edited to conform more to DU standards, complete article at link)

[Violet_Crumble]

24. What about it?

Spiritual argument, my arse. Please take the time to read what pelsar pointed out - that those synagogues were stripped of everything, and held no spiritual significance after all the holy stuff had been taken away. Also, if those buildings were soooo spiritual, how come the settlers spray-painted messages on the walls?

Though I expect an article by one of the right-wing writers at Ha'aretz demonising the Palestinian people and showing absolutely NO empathy at all towards them would appeal to some folk here...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

30. I am merely trying to point out that truth is many-faceted,

Violet. Concern for the synagogues was real among many, inside and outside of Israel.

Nothing is simple in this situation and denial of the spiritual, emotional and even sentimental aspects of people's feelings - on BOTH sides of the struggle - will lead nowhere. Trying to frame the situation in the realm of the merely political or the merely economic misses the boat completely.

[Colorado Blue]

31. A second point: whether the buildings themselves had

meaning after the Torahs, etc, were removed does not mitigate against the horror of destroying them. Symbolically and emotionally, that is a potent issue.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Those buildings were politically symbolic only..

For the settlers, they were a last-ditch political symbol used cynically to try to paint the Palestinians as demonic monsters and to bring up images of Kristallnacht, etc. For the Palestinians, they were a symbol of what remained of the end of a very long and brutal occupation. The Israeli govt acted cynically and expediently when it originally agreed to remove the synagogues, and then did a backflip. They knew it'd be a lose-lose situation for them, so they turned it into a lose-lose situation for the Palestinians, and it's very unfortunate that some folk willingly got sucked in to the extent of not being able to show a shred of empathy for the Palestinian people when those long years of occupation in Gaza ended...

I think most progressives would agree that if the land people are living on is occupied by another country, who then constructs buildings on it, it's more than a reasonable expectation that the buildings that are left are going to be well and truly demolished. I don't give a stuff if it's a McDonalds, local pub, church, mosque or synagogue...

Violet...

[real_democrat]

13. No sympathy for the departing Israeli crazies...

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook09092005.html

Never before in Sharon's tenure as Prime Minister have we witnessed such free movement of the press inside Gaza. Strange that Americans have not witnessed the months of Israeli destruction wrought on the citizens of Rafah or the devastation inflicted on the residents of Jenin or even the wanton slaughter of an innocent Evergreen College student who stood tall before the American bulldozer and watched it crush her beneath its blade, and, then, in virtual slow motion, pull back without lifting the blade to sever her body as witnesses stood around in disbelief unable to comprehend such callousness. Where were the cameras during these episodes of Sharon brutality? Once again, Americans were used as pawns to push the Sharon agenda, the besieged Premier attempting to fulfill the "Road Map" requirements at great political expense.

But who are these "Settlers"? Why expend such media time on 8000 people being evicted from their homes? They are in truth "Squatters," people who knowingly and willingly accept government financial support to move onto land illegally confiscated by the Sharon government under the pretext that it is "annexed" or "appropriated" land available because Israeli law has legalized its theft contrary to international law or the conventions of the United Nations. These people know that they live on Palestinian land the ownership of which can be traced back through centuries. They accept suburban town home housing provided by the Sharon government and military protection provided by the Sharon government and they, in turn, harass their Palestinian neighbors with impunity. None of this reality is presented to the American people. They are presented as citizens of America's only friend in the mid-east, Israel, having to pullback from their rightful positions in order to accommodate the political process.
.
.
.
Why mention these matters in conjunction with the events that have ravaged the Gulf Coast these past two weeks? Because the American taxpayer paid for the settlers to be moved and to cover the "disengagement plan" proposed by Sharon: U.S. aid for the pullout "was slated to offset the cost of implementing the disengagement plan." (Ha'aretz 4/9/05, Yoar Stern). Israel asked for and received more than 2 billion, including the U.S. aid package (Ha'aretz, 24/8/05, Shamuel Rosner; Jerusalem Post 1.27/05, Janine Zacharia). In the CRS Report to Congress, "Israel's Proposal to Withdraw from Gaza," Clyde Mark notes "Israel will offer compensation to the settlers, but the amount and the source of the funds are uncertain. It is estimated that the 1,500 Israeli settler families in Gaza would receive between $200,000 and $750,000 each to move into Israel. The compensation would be for their homes and businesses, but also include additional funds for new housing allowances, business and household relocation, or other expenses." The total cost of the disengagement is estimated "at about 8 billion schekels ($1.74 billion)." (Truth seeker," 7/8/05). These pullout costs are "included in the new U.S. aid package" according to the Jerusalem Post (_7/05).Why mention these matters in conjunction with the events that have ravaged the Gulf Coast these past two weeks? Because the American taxpayer paid for the settlers to be moved and to cover the "disengagement plan" proposed by Sharon: U.S. aid for the pullout "was slated to offset the cost of implementing the disengagement plan." (Ha'aretz 4/9/05, Yoar Stern). Israel asked for and received more than 2 billion, including the U.S. aid package (Ha'aretz, 24/8/05, Shamuel Rosner; Jerusalem Post 1.27/05, Janine Zacharia). In the CRS Report to Congress, "Israel's Proposal to Withdraw from Gaza," Clyde Mark notes "Israel will offer compensation to the settlers, but the amount and the source of the funds are uncertain. It is estimated that the 1,500 Israeli settler families in Gaza would receive between $200,000 and $750,000 each to move into Israel. The compensation would be for their homes and businesses, but also include additional funds for new housing allowances, business and household relocation, or other expenses." The total cost of the disengagement is estimated "at about 8 billion schekels ($1.74 billion)." (Truth seeker," 7/8/05). These pullout costs are "included in the new U.S. aid package" according to the Jerusalem Post (_7/05).
.
.
.

Quite a contrast: U.S. administration support of significant magnitude to citizens of a foreign country, citizens who illegally occupied another people's land, while American citizens languished on rooftops or sweltered in makeshift shelters for days on end with no understanding of where they will go or how they will replace their lost homes. Can anyone doubt that this administration's priorities favor those able to offer it political advantage at the expense of the average citizen stranded at the mercy of Nature's might? How about a "disengagement plan" for New Orleans' residents and those made homeless by Katrina? How about diverting the American/Israeli compensation package to Americans? After all, isn't it questionable at best that our tax dollars support "Squatters"?

I will say it is not fair to compare the Settlers to squatters though. Not fair to squatters that is. At least they generally occupy buildings no one wants, not bulldozing 1500 homes of poor people to be replaced with free modern housing for people who all come from one race, but have no actual ties to the land. People who advocate the extermination of Arabs as many settlers did. People whose land theft you and I paid for.

[pelsar]

14. poorly written article

if you believe all whats was written, then you simply have no idea who and what the settlers believe......

"These people know that they live on Palestinian land the ownership of which can be traced back through centuries"

for instance..the settlers believe exactly the opposite and can prove it just as any palestenians can.....

i would say its a pure propaganda piece...the kind of stuff that belongs in cheap yellow journalism type of places.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. poorly written?

Pelsar...that is an understatement! Shame upon ya! :)

[Englander]

20. About the author - Dr. William A. Cook

"Dr. William A. Cook received his B.A, from King's College and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Lehigh University. His Field is American Literature and his areas of interest include Nathanial Hawthorne (whose picture is below ) and mythology. He served time as the Academic Vice President of the University but now the Department of English is pleased to enjoy his full attention. "

http://www.ulv.edu/english/page1.phtml

But can he speak 6 languages?

[pelsar]

21. well that explains it....

his areas of interest include Nathanial Hawthorne ... and mythology.

i guess he lives in a fantasy world.....so it really isnt propaganda or poorly researched or totally ignores half of the equation.....its just his fanatasy version of the middle east.....

[Englander]

22. lol!

Guess what you like,pelsar, but I feel sorry for the students at
the Uni of La Verne,what with them having a Head of the Dept of
English, who's a "poor writer" & a "fantasist" & all...


:eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

27. No, it wasn't poorly written...

Pelsar disagreed with some of it, and most of us are hopefully aware that just because we disagree with something, that doesn't mean it's poorly written...

An example of abysmal writing skills would be something like a post that was posted in here a while back written by someone called Krotola. The style of writing was incredibly poor and all over the place, and reading it gave rise to an image of a hysterical and frothing at the mouth author who doesn't come across as particularly bright...

Violet...

[pelsar]

29. definition of poorly written...

guess i have to write 'better myself"....by poorly written I wasnt expressing a critizim of the grammer or style (I am hardly one to "talk")..by poorly written i meant that it was one sided, lacking in information.etc...

it wasnt so much that i disagreed with what was written, I found the absence of information, its one sidedness to be "poor" or incomplete..hence my description as "poorly written".

i shall hence forth promise to express myself a tad better in the future with the written world.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Poorly researched?

Lacking in balance? They're better terms, probably...

LOL, pelsar! Written worLd got me laughing. Mind you, I'm not one to talk either :)

Violet....

[Andromeda]

19. Counterpunch is not a credible source...

of news. It's not mainstream and is slanted to an extreme left POV.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Neither's JPost...

...it's about as mainstream as Counterpunch, and is slanted to an extreme right POV, but some folk insist on polluting this forum with it :)

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

35. J Post may be rightwing but is is HARDLY in a league

with Counterpunch, whose authors are also cited by the extreme right.

I think, a little perspective is in order here?

[barb162]

39. I agree, credibility is important and Jerusalem Post seems to get

the facts straight. Whether or not some like the facts is another story.

[Englander]

42. lol!!

The JPost? Facts? Oh,that is priceless!!

:rofl: :rofl:

[barb162]

44. To each his/her own, facts are still facts

Funny how AL Jazeera and many others seem to be reporting the lawlessness and chaos going on just like the Jerusalem Post.

snip
"The impotence of the security forces in the face of armed groups was earlier highlighted at the Rafah border where hundreds of people continued to scramble into Egypt from Gaza despite efforts by the authorities to seal the crossing.

Witnesses said Hamas members blew a gaping hole in one concrete slab, allowing people to scramble across the border with ease.

Egyptian forces also discovered a tunnel filled with rocket-propelled grenade launchers and machine guns on the border, an official said."

snip

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EE562005-3838-4F09-AC4C-30818759BFEF.htm

[Jim Sagle]

51. Priceless but true. JPost RRRRRRRAWWWWKSSSSS!!!!!

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Here's a little perspective...

Take a look around. This is supposed to be a forum for liberals and progressives, which is why I find the adulation in some quarters of JPost rather bizarre. JPost is in the same league of shoddy journalism as our Murdoch rag, the Daily Telegraph...

btw, most left wing writers are at one time or another cited by the extreme right. It's a fact of life....

It's very telling that pelsar was the ONLY person to actually address what the article said, rather than shooting the messenger, btw...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

41. I would say it's more main stream then Counterpunch or WSJ

but less mainstream then the NY Times or the Washington Post

[Lithos]

46. I personally place it

About the same as the Washington Times.

L-

[barb162]

47. Really?

To me it has a pro-Israel slant, but it is credible, factual, especially when I crosscheck it with other papers. Whereas the Wash. Times is a total right wing Bush /GOP machine that never saw a Democrat it liked (except an ex-Dem like Zell from hell Miller). Oh well....

[Lithos]

55. Washington Times is for the most part credible

But, yeah it's definitely an opinionated set of lenses that it sees the world. And the main reason why I think it's similar is in what they don't report in a story. JPost is factual, but similarly has a biased slant.

I also would qualify the Dallas Morning News as a clone.

And while I understand Coastie's WSJ editorial reference, I think Arutz Sheva is probably a bit closer to that model though the news section is definitely much weaker than the WSJ. Possibly Arutz Sheva is comparable to the NY Jewish Times though I do not know enough about the latter to make a definitive claim.

Personally, I read Ha'aretz for the most part on a daily basis. I find the style, fact checking and editorial process to be probably the fairest of any main stream media.

I have a list of sites I go thru (primarily on the weekend) when I can. Some I visit only every few months or so. A few on the list I wish I didn't visit as they are anti-Semitic/hate-biased, but as a moderator I feel I need to know the latest hate meme they are spewing (and see if there are any new sites being linked to).

L-

[Coastie for Truth]

52. I'd say WSJ editorial page

[Englander]

58. Is Mark Steyn one of their writers?

Do they have anyone comparable to his brand of Chimp-idolatry?

[Andromeda]

56. But if a publication agrees with your POV...

it's not "polluting" is it? :)

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Considering I mainly use Ha'aretz, I'd say no...

Of course I don't agree with everything in Ha'aretz, but I still wouldn't call it polluting, considering it's imo a very good quality source that also happens to be rather liberal. Got a problem with that? :)

[leftynyc]

102. Counterpunch as mainstream as JPost??!!!

Are you kidding?

[Jim Sagle]

48. That's right, don't ever blame the perpetrators.

[Andromeda]

18. Where's the show of strength from law enforcement?

Palestinian police stood by helplessly as gunmen raised flags of militant groups in the settlements and crowds smashed what was left in the ruins or walked off with doors, window frames, toilets and scrap metal. Initial plans by Palestinian police to bar the crowds from the settlements for the first few hours quickly disintegrated, illustrating the weakness of the Palestinian security forces and concerns about growing chaos after Israel's departure.

They'd better get a handle on this or there will be worse problems to come.

[barb162]

37. It seems like the Palestinian police are scared of Hamas and

other militant groups. Utterly ineffective.

[Scurrilous]

12. Police fear extreme right revenge attacks on mosques in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/623849.html

<snip>

"Israel Police's most senior officers decided Monday to raise the level of alert over possible attempts by extreme right-wingers to attack mosques in Israel as revenge for the Palestinian destruction of synagogues in former Gaza Strip settlements.

The move came hours after Israel Defense Forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip, ending 38 years of Israeli military rule.

On Monday, Palestinian Authority bulldozers knocked down the walls of an empty synagogue in the evacuated Gaza settlement of Netzarim, in the first sign that the PA intends to raze the structures left behind by Israel after its pullout.

Crowds also set fire to four of the 19 synagogues Israel left behind. The fires in Netzarim, Neveh Dekalim, Morag and Kfar Darom caused little structural damage in the fortress-like concrete and stone structures, which PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said would be destroyed."

<snip>

"Abbas has previously said that the synagogues would be demolished, and reiterated Monday that he does not consider the synagogues holy sites because they have been emptied of sacred objects.
"They left empty buildings that used to be temples, but they removed all the religious symbols, and they are no longer religious places," he said."

[barb162]

77. Well I haven't heard of any attacks on mosques yet, have you?

[pelsar]

89. nothing...

just a news byte....nothing more than that....the whole gaza thing is now over and we're just watching to see what happens...as spectators