Hamas vows to keep fighting, not to disarm

[Brightmore]

Hamas vows to keep fighting, not to disarm
Reuters
Nidal al-Mughrabi
September 12, 2005

Hamas's military wing vowed the Islamic group would keep battling Israel after its withdrawal from Gaza and fight any attempt by the Palestinian Authority to take away its guns.

Ahmed al-Jabari, believed to be Hamas second in command, told Reuters in an interview that the Israeli pullout had shown that resistance was the only "legitimate weapon".

"We will sever any hand that reaches out to touch it," he said as he toured the ruins of Neve Dekalim, the biggest of Gaza's former Jewish settlements.

"Jihad and resistance are the only ways to liberate the homeland and not negotiation and bargains."

Hamas is officially committed to destroying Israel and build an Islamic state in its place, unlike President Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority, which wants negotiations for statehood alongside Israel.

Full story

[okieinpain]

1. if he's that stupid then palestinian control of gaza is going to be over

real quick.

[Andromeda]

72. That's right.

Then they can only blame themselves when things go wrong.

[Jim Sagle]

2. Kill Hamas.

[Maple]

3. Of course they won't

it's the only thing that got them what they want.

The 'peace talks' certainly didn't

[pelsar]

5. what it got them....

was a real test of reality.....if they cant make gaza work.....no matter how many suicide bombers, attackers they send...this will be where the new borders end.

[Maple]

6. LOL not a chance

Make way for the Palestinian nation, or get run over.

[Brightmore]

7. Run over by whom?

Stone throwers and boy bombers?

[Maple]

8. Demographics baby

Israelis are outnumbered.

So there are only 2 choices left.

Attempted genocide...or peace.

Israel has hit the bottom line here.

And all the walls in the world won't change that.

[Brightmore]

9. I believe Israel has already made that choice

Have the Palestinians?

[Maple]

10. Not noticeably

A wall is going up..a viable Palestinian nation hasn't been created yet... Israelis are trying to snarf all the water...bad moves for any 'peace' effort.

[Brightmore]

11. Gaza disengagement is a huge step

And the Palestinians have done what for peace.....?????

But, actions speak louder than words. Let's see what they do with Gaza. If they can grow the economy and get rid of the terrorists, there is no stopping them.

[Maple]

12. It's one tiny step

there will be many more.

And the Palestinians are not on trial here.

[pelsar]

13. oh yes they are....

they have now been given a chance to stop talking /shooting and killing and make a society.-no more excuses..no more settlements no more closures (they have access to egypt)....if they cant do that in Gaza...they sure cant do it in the more complex westbank....

if they fail in gaza, which translates in killings in both israel and in gaza itself..israel would be betraying its own citizens to give them even additional lands for their failed state..so that more killings can occur

a failed society in gaza translates into anarchy, killings. tribalism, honor killings etc...in fact i would wonder if palestenains in the westbank would want to have a copy of a failed gaza as their own.

and i would question those who suggest that even if the palestenains fail in gaza the withdrawls should continue in order to expand upon their failure. (which hardly translates in to someone who actually "cares" about the palestenain citizen")

[Maple]

14. No they aren't. Not by you. Not by anybody

And you aren't 'giving them a chance'

It's their land. To do with as they choose.

The bottom line here is simple:

Either there is a viable Palestinian nation...or there won't be an Israeli one at all.

[Brightmore]

15. I have to disagree with that

Yes it's their land now. Now they must make something out of it. They can't just do whatever they want and make no attempt to stop the terrorism.

If Hamas takes control of Gaza and gets rid of Abbas and keeps on killing Israelis, do you think Israel or any other nation will suggest Israel give the West Bank to them?

The bottom line is now there is a real chance of peace if both sides work together. Israel has taken a step. Now the Palestinians take one. And so on until there is a Palestine living next to a Israel in peace.

[Maple]

16. Disagree all you want

but it's reality.

They can make it into a junk car lot if they want. It's their land.

Although I would imagine, given their plans for it, it will bloom not decay.

But either way, Israel has no choice on the West Bank.

Turn it over now, or turn it over after far more have died.

But turn it over Israel will.

Palestinians outnumber Israelis, and they have the will and the patience to keep pushing until they have their nation back.

And I remind you, that the Irish have kept up the fight for a thousand years.

[pelsar]

17. not true....at all

whether or not the palestenians can make a lawful society is up to them, nobody else.

this is precisly their chance...they have everything they need......if they "choose to fail" that too is their choice..but if that is what they choose, israel will limit the damage that a failed state affect has on them... a failed palestenain state, means misery for everyone, and it would be foolish to let such a thing expand....or is misery, lack of human rights, tribal mentality now a "right" that societies have?

i would question the set of values that argues a "states" right to exist and fail is above the individual rights of citiizens.

if they fail in gaza..your saying they should still continue to expand into the westbank so that they can expand upon the misery and anarchy a failed state would produce?


israels existance is hardly dependant upon a palestenian state...a good neighbor would be great..a failed neighbor is simply more of the same...

eventually israel will turn over the westbank....but when its safe to do so..would be pretty stuided to turn it over to a society that has failed in gaza....and place that anarachy right next door....strange proposal....expand anarchy

[Maple]

18. Israel has no choices left

and is in no moral position to judge anyone.

Many Palestinians have lived in refugee camps and squalor for over half a century.

Where was Israeli morality then?

[pelsar]

19. its not a moral question

whos talking morality?...were talking reality..a failed state produces misery and death...and there are always choices....

some are worse then others.....like letting a failed state expand.....pretty dumb idea.

[Maple]

20. It's not a question at all

In fact it's nobody's business but the Palestinians.

It is not your state to 'let' or 'not let' do anything.

[pelsar]

21. of course its israels business...

a failed palestenian state will affect israel...its means missles, mortors shootings at israel, palestenains refugess coming to israel, suicide bombers....

a direct affect upon israels society and safety....

so what your saying: you value the state existance above peoples rights?...cause thats what it reads (a palestenain state has the right to exist even if causes misery and death...its nobodys business but their own....)

[Maple]

22. No, it is not

You have missiles, suicide bombers and mortars now.

So either create a viable Palestinian state, or prepare for a thousand years of the same.

[Brightmore]

23. What makes you think a viable Palestinian state

will stop the missiles, suicide bombers and mortars?

Remember, the missiles, suicide bombers and mortars are coming from people who believe ALL of Israel is Palestine.

[Maple]

27. When both groups have

viable states, then any violence is an internal police matter, not an 'international incident'

A criminal offence, not a war.

Having a state...a genuine homeland for the Palestinians...is the best, in fact the only, assurance of peace Israel has.

People who own something, and have a stake in something...other than a refugee camp, build. Tools not weapons. They don't want war then. War wrecks things...economies, buildings, people's lives....

They've had nothing to lose up until now...no land, no decent lives, no future. Given a national structure, and some security, roots go down, gardens are planted, lives are planned...urges to 'strike out' are waaaaaaaay down on the priority list. What would be the point?

Yes, there are extremists in both groups. There are also Israelis that want to push all Palestinians into the sea. Israel will have to do it's own internal police actions.

But then, it's a crime...a criminal act. Not an act of war. Not continual national upheaval. Just a crime...like any other crime, and not praiseworthy.

[pelsar]

24. but a palestenain state...

will have the ability and access to produce more, larger and stronger missles. Which is no problem if they succeed....if they fail as a society...we will end up getting a lot more in our backyard....its preferable to have less killings and misery than more

but you seem to be saying...so?...a palestenain state, the entity, is more important than human suffering and misery.

a failed state is more important than the misery that it will produce?....

[Maple]

29. Then play nice

and you won't have missiles in your backyard...like you do now.

Hint: stop suggesting other people are incapable of the same wonderfulness of yourselves.

Tends to put people off. Bad show.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. So which is it?

In fact it's nobody's business but the Palestinians.

It is not your state to 'let' or 'not let' do anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=100447&mesg_id=100468

or

So either create a viable Palestinian state, or prepare for a thousand years of the same.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=100447&mesg_id=100470

[pelsar]

26. nobodys business?

"In fact it's nobody's business but the Palestinians"


hmm interesting thesis...should we apply that to Bosnai, Rwanda, Sudan...i guess with a theory like that we can dump the UN...get rid of most of their agencies.....

[Maple]

33. Actually it's in the UN charter

Absolute sovereignty.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Might want to read my post again.

You gave TWO different suggestions. One: Israel stay out of building a Palestinian state. And, two: Israel is responsible for building a Palestinian state.

So, which is it?

[Maple]

40. I didn't want to read it the first time

because I have no interest in word games.

Israel isn't responsible for building a Palestinian state...just for moving their butts out of the way.

Leave...that's all Israel needs to do.

What..you thought I meant a building fund?? C'mon

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Of course you didn't read it...no time for corrections.

Word games are what you make them.

Israel has "moved its butt," so what's your problem with that?

Israel has left...now it is up to the Palestinians to create their own homeland, but your "word play" suggested that Israel should "create a viable Palestinian state, or prepare for a thousand years of the same." Your words, not mine.

[Maple]

51. Israel has not moved it's butt

it's done one minor thing.

Move....ALL THE WAY OUT OF THE PALESTINIAN STATE...so people can get on with building their country.

Don't pretend anyone wants your carpenters or bricklayers.

You're just playing at silly buggers with this kind of thing.

And it's old...really old.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. The revmoval from Gaza is "minor?"

NO, what is really old is that Israel is ALWAYS wrong and NEVER does anything right....THAT IS OLD!

[Maple]

58. Very

[Behind the Aegis]

34. LOL!

yes, let's leave all countries to their own devices...that could have no real consequences. :sarcasm:

[Maple]

36. Ahem...you signed it

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Ahem...what? I signed nothing.

[Maple]

41. Check....UN founding

American involvement.

There's your signature right there.

The US agreed. Helped make the Charter in fact.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. Bizzare reasoning...

So did Canada...what's your point?

[Maple]

45. You are bound by what you signed

Sorry.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. As are you.

No apologies.

[Maple]

49. Yes, that's stating the blatantly obvious

[Brightmore]

28. I still don't understand how it's NOT Israel's business

Palestine and a Palestinian state has everything to do with Israel.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I agree.

But, Israel need not involve itself in the creation other than the land it has acquiesced. Let the UN step in now...see if they can do better. It is Israel's business in that it needs a non-hostile neighbor.

[Maple]

35. Well the UN caused the problem

in the first place, so yes they have an obligation to help out as much as possible to make it right.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. yes, because that went so well the first time.

However, let's not forget that a Palestinian nation WAS offered and rejected.

[Maple]

44. A nation was never offered

Small 'native reservations' were.

A patchwork quilt of land intersected by Israeli roads with troops...and no water.

I think the Palestinians are aware of how a beadwork and basketweaving economy would work out.

If not, there are plenty of natives in the US to tell them.

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[Maple]

32. What they do internally is not

They can set up a carnival if they like.

It only becomes your business if they attack you.

But they're doing that now anyway.

They'd be less likely to do so with their own state.

Ownership of a nation produces a different mindset than living in a refugee camp.

[Maple]

31. Yes, and.....?

You either make way for a Palestinian state, or prepare for a thousand years of war.

However, if they make their state into a used car lot, it's hardly your business.

Don't take things out of context. Everyone knows that game.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Yes, we know that game...

You are playing it now! You didn't say "make way for a Palestinian state" you said: "In fact it's nobody's business but the Palestinians. It is not your state to 'let' or 'not let' do anything." and "So either create a viable Palestinian state, or prepare for a thousand years of the same. "

Notice that you originally said "create" and "not make way for." Are you amending your statement?

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[lvx35]

4. This is a huge test for the palestinian authority.

Now that sharons done his part, they have to crack down on hamas or its over. I seriously wish them luck.

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[Behind the Aegis]

60. False choices...nothing more.

[Maple]

61. Israel is out of choices

and you, my friend, are out of arguments.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. No...they really aren't.

They have plenty of choices, as do the Palestinians. And, I am not out of arguments, I just have been presented with a real one.

[Maple]

63. LOL yada yada yada

[Behind the Aegis]

64. self-delete...bored...

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[pelsar]

69. maples arguments...

actually ignore the fact if the palestenians state fails the misery of the palestenains will be 10x...and the attackes on israel wont cease..in fact in all of his arguments he seems to prefer a state as the higest value (something akin to stalins russia?)

this is not surprising...but the for the palestenainains a failed state would be even worse than it is now. At least now they have the dream and fanatasy of their own....a failed state not only makes their life if not worse then just as bad but without the dream as well.

that doesnt seem to be a problem ....but then I suspect that just as it was mentioned that "its none of our business" the interests is not so much the palestenian citizen.....just some kind of idea of justification.....a sort of elitist view of the world...if everything fits the "agenda" than all is ok, never mind the misery on the ground that such an agenda might produce.

[Maple]

70. Then it's the Palestinians problem isn't it.

LOL and Stalin is dead. So are his values.

Gosh 'elitism' too...any other random bits you want to throw in here?

Mercantilism. Ageism. Traffic control rules...

It's very simple. Palestinians will continue fighting until they have a viable state.

This has nothing to do with long dead rulers, quaint economic systems, the moon being in the 7th house or anything else.

Had England come to terms with that concept about the Irish a thousand years ago, the entire planet would have been saved a lot of time, money and grief.

[pelsar]

74. until they have a state..

yes i agree...they will fight until they have one....but just because they get the means to have one..does not make it viable.....

having a failed state is worse than not having one

why do you think that just because they have the means to have a state..all of a sudden they will be come responsable and provide for their own, stop their tribalim and stop attacking israel?...on what basis?

maybe the will...and i'm all for it.....but what happens if they dont...if we have a "lebanons civil war" in a miniature format....then what?....they should get the west bank as well?

that makes sense to you?

personally i really dont care what they do....but a civil war or anarchy will spill over to me....so i am affected whether i like it or not...and if they have anarchy in gaza...i'm then supposed to let the anarachy get even closer to my home?....that makes sense?

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[Lithos]

75. Locking

Thread has moved into a complete inflammatory and personal context.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator