Egypt and PA turn Gaza in to a large prison....

[pelsar]

Egyptian and Palestinian Authority security commanders decided after a meeting Tuesday to close the Gaza-Egypt border....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/624381.html

the only link the palestenains have to the outside world has now been closed by the Egyptians...Can you believe that!...and aided by the PA no less...this act, this inhumane act keeps palestenain families seperated, keeps them "locked in" gaza.

The immoral act must stop now!

[bemildred]

1. LOL.. Indeed.

Although the possibility of some really ugly business going
on here soon is not so funny.

[H5N1]

2. Do me a favor: spell Palestinian like this: Palestinian

(And see how we capitalize the P!)

Thank You for your kind consideration.

[Igel]

7. We are neither Germans, capitalizing the 's' in 'Sie',

nor Russians, capitalizing the 'v' in 'Vy', at least in their standard styles for in polite writing.

Nor are we sufficiently old to have been taught by our governors that capitalizing the 'y' in 'you' is proper.

But we are picky when it comes to obvious spelling mistakes and some transgressions against proper style. But only some.

[idontwantaname]

3. if nothing its the cheap cigarettes.

i hope after few months of this zoo-like activity theyll settle down and plan for the future.

[pelsar]

4. it will...

at least i hope so... i'm assuming that the outbursts are simply emotions and energy all pent up after so many years....

I just couldnt resist the post....my own "emotional outburst if you will"

__________________________________
as far as my spellling palestenian without the capital P or with a mistake...i'm pretty inconsistent with the capitials an spellings, be it for americans, israeli etc..and since i give none of the above any kind of "pseudo honor" i shall be consistent and not give it to the palestinians as well....

[idontwantaname]

5. i seldom type palestinian with a "P"... im a neglectful speller as well...

yes. i try to imagine the life in a gaza camp with its "nooks and crannys"... and now what seems to be open space and endless resources...

do you know if the water pumps which supplied the settlements were "removed"?

[pelsar]

6. the infrastructure...

as far as i know was kept intact........but i suspect with the present looting going on....little is left

[barb162]

9. is everyone related to e. e . cummings?

[barb162]

10. it sounds like the greenhouses are totally wrecked

From some other articles I read it seems schools are being wrecked too.

[Colorado Blue]

32. This upsets me bigtime. The anger at the synagogues, I could

understand that even though it was upsetting and very wasteful. But the greenhouses - those were for the people, they were a source of income and an ongoing business that provided jobs.

DAMN.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Sorry, I don't buy it...

I'd believe it would upset someone if they'd shown in the past they were upset when the IDF destroyed things that were a source of income for the Palestinians. Not seeing any evidence of that, I tend to see it as a case of blaming the Palestinians while absolving Israel of doing exactly the same thing...

Oi!

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

51. Wow. That's a really amazing thing to say. How on earth

can you possibly presume to tell me what I'm thinking, or what I have thought in the past?

I have NEVER stated that I was happy about the destruction of economic infrastructure. I have stated, on the other hand, that I do deplore the loss of life and limb on BOTH sides, and that in cases like the wall, which regrettably is harming people's access to land and resulting in trees being uprooted, etc, that it is still preferable to the loss of life that the fence is demonstrably preventing.

Secondly, the greenhouses were created by Israelis and purchased, as a gift to the Palestinians, by American Jews.

Destroying them is NOT the same thing as destroying a house, for example, because it was suspected of being the portal for an arms distribution system. And even in those cases I believe I have stated that I thought destroying houses was a bad idea; I don't believe I've ever commented on the destruction of businesses and so forth, but merely written vigorously AGAINST the violence of the intifada and I have also stated that I felt the response to said violence by the Israelis was often heavy handed. I have consistently expressed a heartfelt wish that said violence should please STOP and people should please start talking to each other and reaching some meaningful compromises, instead of blowing things - and each other - to pieces.

I have also written quite frequently about the need for economic growth so that the Palestinian people can have better lives - and this includes modernization of agriculture, like the Israelis are doing, desalinization plants so there will be more water, and the establishment of businesses that can actually provide serious jobs for people and have some hope of supporting several million people. This hardly constitutes some sort of glee at the thought of Palestinian economic hardship, but in fact reflects serious concern for their future and for their well-being - and nor am I alone among people posting here in having expressed exactly these same ideas.

Indeed I have made many posts in this forum reflecting developments along these lines, including the pipeline project that will bring water from the Red Sea to the Dead Sea, and which is a joint enterprise between Jordan, Israel and the P.A., as well as joint ventures between the Israelis and the Egyptians in the textile industry. However, these posts have received very little attention and no comments from you whatsoever.

It has been for decades now, a fervent wish of mine that the Arab people would stop seeing Israel as a threat, but indeed as an economic partner which can help bring prosperity and hope to the entire region. The intellectual, technical, agricultural and industrial achievements of the Israelis, combined with those considerable contributions the Arabs can bring to the table, could make this area stable and prosperous instead of war-torn and poor.

Now, if you can point to one single post where I have stated that I approve of any destructiveness of Palestinian property whatsoever, except in defense of life and limb during actual warfare, please do so. In any case, the destruction of synagogues and greenhouses hardly falls into that category and I'm amazed that you would make such a comparison.

[leftynyc]

53. I agree Colorado

those greenhouses were specifically left for the Palestinians by JEWISH philantropists. Seems some people just want to see darkness because it fits their worldview.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Yr agreeing with something that accused me of something I didn't say...

n/t

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

71. LOL! I have finally figured it out.

No matter what I say, don't say, think or feel, or don't think or feel - it's wrong.

That makes things simple!

[Violet_Crumble]

74. I wish you'd try addressing what I said...

I was addressing what I've seen from posts in this forum and elsewhere, and *my* thoughts on them. You were wrong on this occassion because you accused me of saying something I hadn't said...

Violet...

[idontwantaname]

72. an economic partner which can help bring prosperity and hope...

much like the USA is for central and south america right?

---------------------------------

im sorry i just couldnt resist butting my nose where it doesnt belong.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. I didn't say what you accused me of, that's why...

Strangely enough, my post saying just that was deleted. So let's try this again:

You replied with: 'I have NEVER stated that I was happy about the destruction of economic infrastructure.' to a post where I said very clearly: 'I'd believe it would upset someone if they'd shown in the past they were upset when the IDF destroyed things that were a source of income for the Palestinians.'

Nowhere in my post did I say 'I have seen people say they were happy about the destruction of economic intrastructure.'

Nor did I ask for lame justifications of why it's okay to support the destruction of Palestinian livelihoods when the IDF or settlers do it. There is NO justification for many of the acts of destruction...

Violet...

[newyorican]

8. Title of article doesn't match yours...

but I get the joke, nyuk, nyuk.

There is the trifling matters of the Israeli-built barrier that fences Gaza in on all other sides and the Israelis controlling the sea lanes and airspace, but why let facts get in the way of a good guffaw.

BTW, keep your day job, another starving comedian, we don't need.

[pelsar]

11. wishful thinking....

i know its tough when reality simply doesnt "fit the mindset"..but one day your going to have to face reality....but maybe not, its tough to "let go sometimes"

gaza has access to egypt both physically as well as by sea and air....israel cant stop a 30 second helicopter/plane trip over the border, nor a boat going from egypt to gaza

your "prison" has the egyptians, i.e. the palestenian brethren. as full partners......you can now rant how the egyptians are keeping the "palestenians trapped"...and not the israelis.....

and the "israeli built barrier"....heh heh is that some kind of way of saying israel is responsable for palestenains not being able to enter egypt at will?.....egypt cant remove it?...

hate to break it to you...its 2005, the palestenians and their cheerleaders....no longer have any excuses of the "israelis are at fault, they did this to us.....ad nauseum.\

but i assume, as in the above post....people will still try......old habits are sure hard to break...and besides why bother?

[barb162]

12. If anything, it sounds as if Egypt may build a bigger barrier

and station more troops there if things don't settle down.

[pelsar]

13. egypt....

is scared "sh¡tless of the palestenians running "loose" in the sinai....

what will be interesting is if Egypt will now take some of the "heat" for keeping the palestenians down...you know like the unarmed, non threatening palestenian kid they shot yesterday....you did hear about it right?

[barb162]

14. No I didn't hear about that shooting

and I don't blame the Egyptians (or any other country) one bit for wanting secure borders

[pelsar]

15. neither do i...

but the wall already has "holes" in it...meaning in only a couple of days there is not border control .....with the wall being blown up by hamas for easier passage of rockets and toilets......guess all of those who said israel will control all the borders were wrong...probably the same bunch that said israels withdrawl was some kind of trick...

probably the same bunch that will make excuses for the jihadnikim when they start firing into israel and then critize israel for firing back.....I'm sure they'll have some other illusion as to why israel is returning fire (probably like so they can take over gaza....)

[idontwantaname]

16. gaza is not the west bank...

you cannot blame them for wanting to get out.

---------------------------

It is one of the most densely populated territories on earth, with a predominantly (99.4%) Palestinian population of about 1.4 million in an area of 360 km².

The majority of the Palestinians are direct descendants of refugees who fled or were expelled from Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

GDP in 2001 declined 35% to a per capita income of $625 a year, and 60% of the population is now below the poverty line.

A study carried out by Johns Hopkins University and Al Quds University for CARE International late in 2002 revealed very high levels of dietary deficiency among the Palestinian population. The study found that 17.5% of children aged 6–59 months suffered from chronic malnutrition. 53% of women of reproductive age and 44% of children were found to be anemic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_strip
-------------------------------

[pelsar]

17. i dont blame them at all..

in fact the smiles on their faces was actually quite nice to see....many of the palestenains were interviewed on israeli TV tonight and you could 'feel their happiness"

so I actually have no problem with them being able to move, be happy and celebrate....the trouble is the "dark side of that" with the Hamas etc

[idontwantaname]

20. hamas...

while i cannot criticize hamas for doing what it is doing... their actions provide a credible argument for many people who are not "pro-palestinian" or whatever the label is...

i cannot count the number of times people have asked me why palestinians raise their kids to be suicide bombers ect...

to grow up in gaza or the west bank under someones boot and to have to have a permit to move throughout your country and justify so daily at a number of different checkpoints is just the beginning of how the occupation has affected the lives and mindset of palestinians... not to mention seizure of land to sometimes hostile neighbors.

ah... the laundry lists we have.

[barb162]

18. and from the same article

"fertility: 4.7 children born/woman"

A lot of kids per family often results in poverty. Maybe the leaders should be talking to the people about population control re
it being so densely populated and with water resources being so scarce.

[idontwantaname]

21. but what else would there be to do???

seriously though, the resources were scarce for those without pools and big money gardens...

[barb162]

23. What I notice is discrepancies

like a high anemia rate in the population, but a lot of kids per family . Maybe there would be way less anemia if you only had as many kids as you could afford. A really novel idea, huh? I will tell you, I sure couldn't afford 5 kids. Hell I couldn't afford 2 kids. I notice the PA having billions in the banks but the Palestinians are living in slums. Why not have the PA use the billions on its people. One of the very biggest things I notice is the guys marching along the caskets of the latest suicide bombers...they always have really expensive looking guns. I always wonder if they have kids, how many kids and if those kids have textbooks ( let alone anemia).
Whenever I see those big guns, I literally think where's the textbooks for your kids, what are you teaching the kids by marching around with those guns and shooting them in the air. When the USA occupied Japan and Germany after WW2, did they suicide bomb?

[idontwantaname]

24. you seem to be ignoring the fact that...

until a couple weeks back gaza was considered either a closed military zone or a war zone.
this is not middle america where you can throw a couple dollars and text books their way and walk away... and as far as text books go.. the publisher is Macmillan... and the books seem suited for a 1st world audience... with talk of vacations and such.

as far as japan and WW2... what do you think kamikaze pilots were doing?... bringing supplies to US carriers???

and heres the US' solution to the problem:

67 Japanese Cities Firebombed(using napalm) in World War II


Name of Japanese city firebombed
Percentage of the city destroyed
Equivalent in size to the following American city


Yokohama 58 Cleveland

Tokyo 51 New York

Toyama 99 Chattanooga

Nagoya 40 Los Angeles

Osaka 35.1 Chicago

Nishinomiya 11.9 Cambridge

Siumonoseki 37.6 San Diego

Kure 41.9 Toledo

Kobe 55.7 Baltimore

Omuta 35.8 Miami

Wakayama 50 Salt Lake City

Kawasaki 36.2 Portland

Okayama 68.9 Long Beach

Yawata 21.2 San Antonio

Kagoshima 63.4 Richmond

Amagasaki 18.9 Jacksonville

Sasebo 41.4 Nashville

Moh 23.3 Spokane

Miyakonoio 26.5 Greensboro

Nobeoka 25.2 Augusta

Miyazaki 26.1 Davenport

Hbe 20.7 Utica

Saga 44.2 Waterloo

Imabari 63.9 Stockton

Matsuyama 64 Duluth

Fukui 86 Evansville

Tokushima 85.2 Ft. Wayne

Sakai 48.2 Forth Worth

Hachioji 65 Galveston

Kumamoto 31.2 Grand Rapids

Isezaki 56.7 Sioux Falls

Takamatsu 67.5 Knoxville

Akashi 50.2 Lexington

Fukuyama 80.9 Macon

Aomori 30 Montgomery

Okazaki 32.2 Lincoln

Oita 28.2 Saint Joseph

Hiratsuka 48.4 Battle Creek

Tokuyama 48.3 Butte

Yokkichi 33.6 Charlotte

Uhyamada 41.3 Columbus

Ogaki 39.5 Corpus Christi

Gifu 63.6 Des Moines

Shizuoka 66.1 Oklahoma City

Himeji 49.4 Peoria

Fukuoka 24.1 Rochester

Kochi 55.2 Sacramento

Shimizu 42 San Jose

Omura 33.1 Sante Fe

Chiba 41 Savannah

Ichinomiya 56.3 Sprinfield

Nara 69.3 Boston

Tsu 69.3 Topeka

Kuwana 75 Tucson

Toyohashi 61.9 Tulsa

Numazu 42.3 Waco

Chosi 44.2 Wheeling

Kofu 78.6 South Bend

Utsunomiya 43.7 Sioux City

Mito 68.9 Pontiac

Sendai 21.9 Omaha

Tsuruga 65.1 Middleton

Nagaoka 64.9 Madison

Hitachi 72 Little Rock

Kumagaya 55.1 Kenosha

Hamamatsu 60.3 Hartford

Maebashi 64.2 Wheeling

[barb162]

25. During WW2, cities got bombed, kamikazes existed, etc

Then the war ended and occupation started. Were there suicide bombings in the occupied countries, such as Germany and Japan once the war ended? (Um, as far as atrocities during WW2, it was a W-A-R and you might want to check what the Japanese did to China, what the Germans did to innocent Jews, gays, mentally handicapped, etal). I am not bringing up WW2, only the occupation after. If we want to make this about WW2 we probably need to go to a history forum. I am simply bringing up occupation. Gaza isn't occupied anymore, why all the parading around with all the guns, blowing up the wall on the Egypt border, destruction of valuable infrastructure that could only be of benefit to the Palestinians, speeches about more bombings, etc. The greenhouses were left intact and donations were made to keep the equipment there for jobs and profit for the Palestinians.

[idontwantaname]

26. i dont mean to offend anyone with this comment but...

if you beat a dog... again and again and again for years... decades... then one day you let him loose in a childrens play area what would you expect to happen?

---------------

the details of how allied nations treated occupied japan/germany are totally different than israels occupation of the west bank and gaza(until recent). if you havent noticed the occupation of the west bank is more like americas manifest destiny... with similarities to the occupation of iraq which too has suicide bombers(have you questioned their movites at all?)

[eyl]

27. would it be crass of me to point out

that in your analogy, the dog would be summarily shot?

[idontwantaname]

28. i thought israel didnt support capital punishment...?

hmmm...

[eyl]

29. Hey,

you brought it up.

[barb162]

30. tell me why suicide bombers in Iraq go up to six Iraqi MDs

getting into a vehicle on their way to a hospital and pull the pin, killing the doctors. Tell me why a suicide bomber in Iraq goes into a village square where there isn't an American soldier for miles and blows himself up and 20 innocent Iraqi people. What do they accomplish killing Moslems, innocent people, innocent children.

No I do not understand their motives.Questioning their motives, I find NOTHING that justifies this. If you have a beat on their motives and what they think they are accomplishing, please clue me in. I am baffled that Moslem MDs killed by other Moslems is somehow justifiable

[Violet_Crumble]

37. There is a difference between understanding and justifying something...

Most people at DU have the ability to understand the motives behind things, and are bright enough to realise that understanding motives does not mean that they've found something that justifies those actions...

btw, just like Christians, Muslims have different sects or whatever they are. Which is why there's a hatred of Shi'ites by Sunnis, etc. At the risk of being accused of justifying such things, it's that animosity and hatred which fuels a part of what is happening in Iraq right now.

I figure this is a waste of time to post, but on the off-chance that someone interested in actually learning something stumbles upon this thread, here's a great but long article about it:

The Saudi Paradox

If Saudi clerics do indeed preach a murderous anti-Americanism because they fear their domestic rivals, then certain implications follow for U.S. foreign policy. Washington cannot afford to ignore what Saudis say about each other, because sooner or later the hatreds generated at home will be directed toward the United States.

This is particularly true of the Shi`ite question in Saudi politics. Radical Sunni Islamists hate Shi`ites more than any other group, including Jews and Christians. Al-Qaeda's basic credo minces no words on the subject: "We believe that the Shi`ite heretics are a sect of idolatry and apostasy, and that they are the most evil creatures under the heavens." For its part, the Saudi Wahhabi religious establishment expresses similar views. The fatwas, sermons, and statements of established Saudi clerics uniformly denounce Shi`ite belief and practice. A recent fatwa by Abd al-Rahman al-Barrak, a respected professor at the Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University (which trains official clerics), is a case in point. Asked whether it was permissible for Sunnis to launch a jihad against Shi`ites, al-Barrak answered that if the Shi`ites in a Sunni-dominated country insisted on practicing their religion openly, then yes, the Sunni state had no choice but to wage war on them. Al-Barrak's answer, it is worth noting, assumes that the Shi`ites are not Muslims at all.

[barb162]

42. Oh Puhleeze

Most people at DU have the ability to get past this third grade stuff such as the diff between understanding and justification of something. And yes, it is a waste of time to post such incredibly elementary stuff. It is insulting to all DUers, who in my opinion, are way past this.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Thanks for agreeing with me, barb...

Most people at DU have the ability to get past this third grade stuff such as the diff between understanding and justification of something. And yes, it is a waste of time to post such incredibly elementary stuff.

Third grade elementary, and insulting to all DUers comment from an earlier post:

"No I do not understand their motives.Questioning their motives, I find NOTHING that justifies this."


Violet...

[barb162]

48. Do you think you scored a point or something? LOL & N-O-T

Nothing justifies the act of terrorism. As to the two specific situations of terrorism I brought up, I do not understand their motives and guess what, neither do you, unless, of course, you personally knew the two individuals bombers involved or you're a mindreader.

And by the way I don't agree with you.

Tata

[Violet_Crumble]

49. No, because I don't think this forum is some lame contest...

Hello? Where did I say anything justifies the act of terrorism*? I didn't. What I am trying to get you to understand is that trying to understand why these things happen does not mean justifying those acts. Not a particularly difficult concept to understand, which is why when you spoke of third grade stuff, I thought you were agreeing with my view that equating understanding with justifying is an incredly simplistic and rather silly stance....

*As you've said in the past that you think even legitimate acts of resistance aimed at the military is terrorism, I'll just point out that I believe terrorism is acts of violence carried out on civilians for a political goal...

Violet...

[barb162]

50. Well then we do agree on something...your first sentence

Wow!

But hello back, I hate to tell you but you seemingly keep trying to point something out to me that I have understood for decades. I am wondering why you think you need to do this. Disasgreement doesn't mean someone doesn't understand something. You can never fully understand another person's motives and probably more so when extreme acts are involved.

The asterisked material is from whom?

[Violet_Crumble]

58. If you've understood for decades, why did you disagree with me?

When I agree with someone, I tend not to spend the next few posts telling them I disagree with them, that's all...

Maybe yr comment "No I do not understand their motives.Questioning their motives, I find NOTHING that justifies this." is causing some confusion? I try to understand motives and what drives people to carry out such acts, but I don't do it in order to find any justification. If those acts are carried out on civilians, then it's a waste of time to search for justification, because there is no justification for attacks on civilians...

Not sure why yr asking who the asterisked material is from. It was pretty damn clear, I thought...

Violet...

[pelsar]

31. idonwantanme......

now what...in your opinon......if all goes well, a society arises with law and order, great...but what if the palestenains DONT manage to make a viable society. Armed gang bangers run the streets each with their own fiefdom (PA by day, Al Asqa by night).....killings daily for those that "dont conform" and terror for the avg palestenain.

missles and mortors continue to fall on israel with an enlarged supply....

at that point should, in your opinion, israel continue to give up more?


whats more important ones own "national state" failure or not...or the individuals right to live (I suspect palestenian terror upon itself would be far worse than anything the IDF has ever done....if not physically then psychologically)

[idontwantaname]

41. let me know if i went the wrong direction with this post...

what is important (to me) is the palestinians (west bank/gaza) have the opportunity to build a nation state... not that having a state is all that great inthis day and age.

i think the story is not over yet though. theres still plans to construct an armed "defensive" wall around the gaza/israel border no?

let be honest here. if israel really wanted the palestinians to have a good go at somehting the best thing to have done wouldve been to withdraw from the west bank. gaza leads nowhere.

israel withdrew from gaza because it was a dead end money pit. recently barb posted that interview with sharon and abass... and sharon is well aware that gaza was a waste...

the west bank is key... thats where possibilities grow. it has more space per person.. more fertile land... is more civilized than gaza.

there was a documentary with a bunch of folks... including abass(mazen). he spoke of how arafat always said gaza was a dead end in negotiations. the funny thing is abass(mazen) disagreed with arafat saying if he(abass) were offered gaza he would take it because its a place to start.

so now abass has it. i definitely think he wants to make a good go of it. its a hard task though. we know civil war is possible for them. its possible for anyone... it doesnt matter what religion you believe or where you come from or what color you are...

so thats what i think may happen. if abass doesnt turn his back on gaza he will face them... not head on because thats not his style... but perhaps with some diplomacy or maybe ask for help. young sharon or arafat wouldve stomped on the opposition... but not old abass.

the PA will have its hands full trying to put a blanket on the different factions, descendents of refugees...

if i grew up in israel i wouldve done "whats good for the jews" and joined the IDF... and i would never give up my gun.

if i grew up in gaza i wouldve joined hamas... and i would never give up my gun.

[barb162]

43. "Gaza leads nowhere"

So why was it wanted by the Palestinians? I know that's rhetorical, but there are jobs there, places to build for more jobs, industry....
And as you paraphrase Abbas, it's a place to start.

[Colorado Blue]

45. Really.

Isn't self-determination in Gaza something really, really major? It's a huge first step, not to be lightly dismissed.

And the excuse that growing up in the ghetto and/or being the victim of violence predestines a person to joining a violent street gang and/or taking violent revenge is sort of old, don't you think? We have CHOICES. It strikes me that a major choice in any personal OR political battle is to choose civil, non-violent action that doesn't involve violence, let alone suicide bombers. And please - no lectures about how I wouldn't understand. I would and I do.

Finally, Hamas and the IDF are NOT the same thing. The army of a sovereign state is not the same thing as a terrorist organization devoted to destroying its neighbor and murdering all her people.

[pelsar]

52. yes and no..

the fence around gaza exists today..(not complete)) is simply an electronic fence (looks like a standard metal link fence)....touch it and sensors record the movement and the IDF then goes out to check it-very much unlike the "wall".

whether its the westbank or gaza whatever israel does will be good for israel...there is no altruism here. Sharon left gaza for a multiple of reasons....a solid one being that its eliminates ambiguity with the palestenians. This is the first time they have to face up to the responsabiity of state...can they do it?

whether abbas or sharon think gaza is a dead end...doesnt really mean anything to me...its part of the future palestine....its has resources, the settlers had thriving industries...years ago they said the tiny israel couldnt make it. If the palestenains cant make a society there...what do they expect from us?....on the contrary its upto them to do something with it....they demanded it, they killed for it...now they got it.

it doesnt make sense to me, nor to most israelis to give them the westbank/jersualem/gaza and then discover that their leadership cant make a state, cant controll the hamas cant disarm the groups....to discover that at the end of the process would cause endless suffering to both sides....as the IDF would have to retake such a failed state...and here you too can be honest...knowbody has any idea what a palstentian state would look like....too many 12yr old kids who are future leaders will be involved. Everyone seems to assume that a future palestenian state will work...and not look like sudan or saddams iraq (attacking its neighbors)...or present iraq with suicide bombers coming from the outside or some variation of those countries.....what if it doesnt work?....what then?....the Internationals/UN will then say:....well the palestenanians and their brethren may be causing mayhem in israel...but at least their not occupied?...that will really make me feel better.....

and that is the crux of the problem and question:

what if gaza fails to develop into a functioning state?....what if it developes in to areas of warlords where the people live in fear of their own neighboor, where the main trade is in military weapons brought in from egypt and shot over the border.....what if such a society
is a minature combination of sudan, iraq/taliban etc

what then?

[barb162]

55. what then?

I think it will be on the setting called "self-destruct"

[idontwantaname]

59. does it make sense to continue construction in the w.bank?

my best guess of the "what ifs" would be *if* gaza spirals out of control the proper thing to do is for israel to go to the UN and request assistance with the issue.

the wrong thing to do would be to act unilaterally...

[eyl]

60. And at best

the UN would "solve" the problem by deliberating about it until everyone dies of old age.

And that's assuming it would do anything.

[idontwantaname]

61. do you have a better idea?...

or were you in favor of invading iraq for its WMDs too? be honest now.

[eyl]

64. WTH does Iraq have to do with this?

Back to the subject: I've just gone over the list of UN resolutions over the last several years, since the start of the intifada. In that period, there are no UNGA resolutions condemning (or even mentioning, as far as I've found) terrorism against Israelis, though there's a fair number condmening Israel. As for the UNSC, there are a couple of resolutions condemning Israel alone (and there would be several more if not for the US veto), and a few others "condemning all acts of violence" or something similarly mealy-mouthed (and in at least some of those cases, I understand - based on news reports at the time - that the phrasing would have ended up considerably more anti-Israeli if not for the threat of a US veto).

But, I hear you say, these are just the actions of the assembly; and besides, it's all hypothetical. So let's look at things which occured on the ground.

When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, it requested UN inspectors oversee the process; and they certified that Israel had indeed completely withdrawn from Lebanese territory. Since then, we've had recurrent attacks by Hizbullah. Again, this is in violation of the UN determination. The UN has done: absolutely nothing. Worse, when Hizbullah kidnapped three Israeli soldiers, UN soldiers stood by and did nothing except videotape the incident, and to add insult to injury, proceeded to deny the tapes existed.

Given all that (and more), you'll forgive me if I prefer to rely on Israeli reactions rather than waiting for the UN to do something* (especially since the Territories are much closer to Israeli population centers than Lebanon is).

*Granted, apparently international law (as interpreteted by the ICJ, at least) says Israel has no right to defend itself against either Hizbullah or the Palestinians, but **** it

[idontwantaname]

66. the UN only works as well as its members wish it...

what you refer to as defense is considered by many as offense. do you honestly think you can "end terrorism" by assassinations and helicopter attacks.

is this a solution to suicide bombers and mortars???

dont you think settlement building in the west bank will piss palestinians off? theyre not foolish.

when the army invades or puts a town under curfew to assassinate "militants" who may or may not have committed any crimes... how many more militants do you think will join resistance when the live ammunition goes stray and kills their son/daughter/father/mother? or worse when the tank shell misses its target? this is no solution.

[eyl]

67. By that logic

the only response Israel can make to continuing Palestinian violence is to sit still and take it. And the UN's response is irrelevant; unless you think that those Palestinians who would join the "resistance" would somehow be more forgiving if their son/daughter/father/mother was killed by a stray bullet fired in a UN-sanctioned operation?

And let me remind you this - while they didn't stop them completely, the assassinations and attacks you decry put a very serious crimp in the Palestinian attacks (particularly Hamas') against Israelis (just to remind you - in March 2002, before the IDF stepped up its attacks and started entering Palestinian-controlled territory in a serious way, there were times where there was more than one suicide bombing per day).

[idontwantaname]

68. suicide bombings are no solution for either side.

after the IDFs stepped up action things may have been ok in israel but they got bad for palestinians. my friends father died during tulkarem curfew as he was elderly and ill and needed hospital attention. as a result both sons joined resistance against their mothers will. one son was assassinated and now his mom has her home marked for demolition.

sure theres less suicide bombings now... but this isnt a solution for either side.

side note: if barb is reading this then this is the answer to my question before... on what happened to the mukatas. israel destroyed the PAs HQs in all major cities during this time.

israeli tanks ripped up the streets... houses were full of holes from shellings and stray fire. many many people died.

march 2002 - 238 palestinians died
april 2002 - 246 palestinians died

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Palestinians_killed_by_Israeli_security_forces_montly_tables.asp

[eyl]

69. Obviously

While we (well, most of us) don't take any pleasure in making things bad for Palestinians, if the choice is between bad for them or bad for us we'll choose the former.

[idontwantaname]

70. i understand. n/t.

[pelsar]

63. the UN?

like in Sudan, Rwanda, Bosnia?...the un is not very helpful during armed conflicts.....they tend to run away when the bullets start flying if they even get involved.

and no i dont want to go back.....and if they "fall apart" i really dont have a solution...Egypt will probably lock their door and then they really will be in a "prison".

nor will abbas visit for fear of his own life.......

it will be a reall mess for those living there...and probably worse if they bring in the palestenains from lebanon..who themselves are an "armed camp".

I hope they find a solution....or things are going to get worse...gaza will probably turn in to some sort of intl shelter for intl terrorists

[idontwantaname]

65. the un is not very helpful during armed conflicts...

agreed.

i spend a couple days in balata refugee camp... rumor had it during a point when the IDF was preparing for an invasion. they had slowly but surely set up road blocks and dirt walls blocking streets and alleys. it was very creepy to be there... sitting and waiting for the helicopters and tanks to roll in. too much for me.

the morning i planned to leave there was word that special forces had occupied 2 houses down the street. the neighbors were worried as one of the homes belonged to an elderly woman who needed care and medication. the other home belonged to a man who was part of balatas peace camp and a friend(coincidence? probably not.).

3 jeeps, 1 bulldozer and several hours later... after many tear gas canisters, atleast a dozen rubber bullets and live ammunition(which found its way into a young palestinian boys leg, a young girls foot(she was fixing her hair in her house when she got hit), and a young mans neck), special forces left both houses.

the soldiers in the jeeps thought it was funny to point their rifles at us. i can only imagine they jokes they were telling while playing cat and mouse.

ISM later interviewed the residence and documented the accounts of occupation of both homes... as well as the events afterward. how snipers were setup and pushed the family into one room.

unfortunately this was not my first or last experience with special forces occupying palestinian homes for assassination purposes.

the entire time this was going on white UN vehicles would drive by like nothing was going on. as we left the camp we saw a man in a UN jacket sweeping the streets of rubble. i dont think he was a UN worker but it seemed to fit perfectly with the UNs role in this conflict.

[idontwantaname]

62. not to nit-pick...

"Sharon left gaza for a multiple of reasons....a solid one being that its eliminates ambiguity with the palestenians."

---------------------------------

i think there is still a good amount of ambiguity with settlement construction expanding within the west bank...
if anyhting this confirms suspicions that the gaza pullout is to pull attention away from expanding settlement activity in the west bank.

is it SO HARD to cease illegal settlements in occupied territory?

why is israel expanding settlement activity???

-------------------------------------

its like giving a bum thumbs up to sleep on your lawn then stealing a his shopping cart while he sleeps

[newyorican]

19. flawed thinking...

i know its tough when reality simply doesnt "fit the mindset"..but one day your going to have to face reality....but maybe not, its tough to "let go sometimes"

Your title does not match the title of the article. That's reality yet your response is some drivel about "mindset" or "facing reality" or "letting go".

gaza has access to egypt both physically as well as by sea and air....israel cant stop a 30 second helicopter/plane trip over the border, nor a boat going from egypt to gaza

Talk about facing reality, I didn't realize Gazans had a helicopter and/or boat in every garage. Maybe that's because they don't. I won't even dignify *your* 30 second absurdity with a response.

your "prison" has the egyptians, i.e. the palestenian brethren. as full partners......you can now rant how the egyptians are keeping the "palestenians trapped"...and not the israelis.....

Here is where you trip over your own words. I didn't mention the word "Prison", you did. Yet it is now quote, mine, unquote. That is a juvenile tactic. As for the Egyptians, do they control the airspace and sea lanes? No.

and the "israeli built barrier"....heh heh is that some kind of way of saying israel is responsable for palestenains not being able to enter egypt at will?.....egypt cant remove it?...

heh, heh...yes and yes.

hate to break it to you...its 2005, the palestenians and their cheerleaders....no longer have any excuses of the "israelis are at fault, they did this to us.....ad nauseum.\

I hate to break it to you, but abandoning Gaza (out of demographic necessity) while stealing even more land in the West Bank is not how one gets off-the-hook. Israel is still in the docket and on the carpet for land theft and occupation...ad nauseum.

but i assume, as in the above post....people will still try......old habits are sure hard to break...and besides why bother?

Your Kung Fu is weak. Why do I bother?? Good bloody question.

[pelsar]

22. not too flawed......

westbank is irrelevant to gazas self government....israel no longer has any responsability toward gaza...and yes Egypt does have their own air space up to the gaza border...and its another 30 seconds to land in gaza...so too with boats.

hence they do have access to both sea and air....and its realistic to assume that it will expand if missles dont land in israel.

whether or not every gazan has their own boat of helicopter is irrelvant neither do egyptians or israelis....

and palestenians at least up until today can move freely to egypt and they have put holes in the Israeli built barrier...end of that point.

whats left?....trying to find a way to blame israel for gazas failures....abbas has already blamed israel for the palestenians rush to egypt and the chaos that ensued...and why not....after all....it must be.....

[newyorican]

54. Is that like, "not too pregnant"?

Just a little preggers, eh?

[Colorado Blue]

33. I actually ran across an article the other day in which somebody

DID blame Israel for the chaos on Gaza - due to the fact that they LEFT.

AAAAACCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

[pelsar]

34. surprised?

why....its going to be very difficult NOT to blame israel...i'm not sure how but twisting and turning of events have always been part of the this conflict.

I'm trying to figure how one could blame israel, and how they will in the future if Gaza fails to produce a reasonable society......at the sametime i did read where the palestenain leadership doesnt want gaza to end its refugee status as that would reduce the monies flowing in and make them responsable both financially as well as well as managerially for much of the population.....

[Violet_Crumble]

35. What's the difference?

I see people in this forum blame the Palestinians for the Occupation, for Israel demolishing their homes, and a whole slew of stuff. Can anyone explain to me what the difference is?

Violet...

[pelsar]

39. one doesnt preclude the other...

were now in a new phase....an area where the palestenains have both the authority and responsability toward their own.....no longer can the "occupation" be blamed for everything.

whereas before lines were blurred....they are far more clear cut now.....will the palestenians make the best of it....?...if so and I truly hope so, i will be more than happy to revisit palestenian square in gaza city again

but if not...let the blame fall squarly where it belongs...on their leadership and society....and lets leave israel out of it

they have access to the world via Egypt, so they are no longer locked up in a prison by israel...(as per so many allegations.....)

if israel is attacked..who shall be responsable?....no longer can the PA claim that "they have no control".....it may be true "on the ground"..but then if so why were they demanding independance if they cant handle it?

they got what they wished for....now its upto them to take the responsability for it

[Violet_Crumble]

40. The only problem is...

..that there's the West Bank that's still occupied and with expansion of settlements to go on full bore. While the occupation has ended in Gaza, I don't think it's realistic to ignore that what happens in the West Bank affects what will happen in Gaza..

It appears to me that now's a time to wait and see what will happen in Gaza, but by the posts from a small number of folk in this forum, it seems to me that they're more interested in getting all excited at the prospect of chaos in Gaza. What they should be doing is sitting back and waiting and fervently hoping that something stable comes of it, because it's in the best interests of Israel as well as the Palestinians for it to be stable. Regardless of what happens, nothing in Gaza will be justification for Israel to continue the occupation of the West Bank...


While playing the blame game can give folk with very little of substance to say eternal fuel, it gets tiring to watch, and what I find is the ones who go on so much claiming Israel gets blamed for everything are generally the ones guilty of blaming the Palestinians for everything. It's what comes of clinging to a one-dimensional and shallow perception of the conflict, where many things have multiple parties involved to blame...

Violet...

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

47. Too bad Sharon doesn't agree with you

in regard to another of your incorrect comments: "Regardless of what happens, nothing in Gaza will be justification...."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x100740


"Question: So that's where you would go next, to phase one of the Roadmap?

Sharon:We are in the pre-Roadmap phase now. In order to enter to the Road-map, there should be a full cessation of terror, hostilities and incitement. The Palestinian Authority should dismantle the terrorist organizations."

Sharon won't be doing any more unilateral concessions unless the Palestinians start to play ball.



As to the rest of your post, I won't waste my time.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. No surprises

Just as there are the so-called "Israeli-firsters," there are also the "Israeli always 'wrongers'." It is one of the real problems of the situation. Some will never see that the Palestinians can be noble people, and then there are those who will never see that Israelis can be the same, just as noble.