F-16 bombings of civilian areas

[idontwantaname]

gee thanks israel for destroying the Dar al-Arqam Islamic School.

now lets criticize the PA for not repairing it...




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http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/updates_news/updates/4_assassinated_israel.htm

visit weblink to view: The collapsed roof of the destroyed al-Arqam school is seen after it was hit by missiles from an Israeli F-16 in Gaza on September 25, 2005. Israel launched several air strikes in the Gaza Strip on Sunday.

-------------------------------

<snip>

The extra-judicial assassinations, illegal under international law, were followed by two more killings the next day.

<snip>

The attacks have destroyed any goodwill from the Gaza pullout and increased already intense pressure on Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas to confront militants. Abbas has said his forces are not strong enough to take on militants due to Israel’s restrictions on equipping them.

Residents of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, until this weekend still celebrating their newfound liberation, reported to the Palestine Monitor that they are once again experiencing sleepless, terrified nights as the drone of Israeli aircraft shatters the calm night air, and the occupation continues from the sky.

[pelsar]

1. thank hamas..

and everybody else who shot 40 missles in to israeli cities (full of civilians)....i personally see that as a declaration of war after israel pulled out completly from gaza.

shouldnt start wars you cant win.....

[Violet_Crumble]

2. So two wrongs make a right?

If it's wrong to hit Israeli schools with missiles, then it's also wrong to hit Palestinian schools with missiles. Nothing justifies either of them...

Violet...

[barb162]

4. There 's only one wrong...missiles flying into Israel.

Israel defending itself against unprovoked missile attacks is not a wrong.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Bombing a school isn't wrong if it's a Palestinian school?

When Israel retaliates by bombing a school, it IS wrong...

No matter how you look at this, there's NO justications for bombing a civilian target, especially a school....

Violet...

[barb162]

7. Self defense against unprovoked attacks is NOT wrong

And you know it is retaliation? Link?

[Violet_Crumble]

9. It is when they hit civilian targets...

As well as being just as morally wrong as when Hamas hit an Israeli school, it's also against international law...

There is legitimate self-defence that Israel can take when attacked. Attacking civilian targets like this one isn't an act of legitimate self-defence. Any argument that they are is as flawed as ones that could be made that the attack by Hamas on civilian targets in Israel are legitimate...

Violet...

[barb162]

11. The school was a front for Hamas per the Army

Unless you have some info that shows the Israeli school was a front for Israeli militants, I think you don't have an argument. I don't agree with your comments.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/23/world/main881440_page2.shtml

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Oh, if the IDF said it then it MUST be true...

:eyes:

Even if it was a 'front' for Hamas, it is still a school and children were in it. As Israel would have been aware of it for a long time, what did the school have to do with the attack on an Israeli school? As I've already said, there is absolutely no justification or argument using international law for targetting schools and civilians. Doing so is just as bad as when Hamas does it. I'm sorry that you don't agree and feel that Israel can attack civilian targets at will...

Violet...

[barb162]

17. I think it is true. How very interesting you don't think so.

:eyes:

They certainly have WAY more credibility than Hamas when Hamas said Israel was responsible for their little truck explosion at last week's march or parade or whatever it was where they killed 15 or so of their own people, INCLUDING CHILDREN. By the way, no one was killed at the school according to what I have read which is a heck of a lot better than Hamas blowing Palestinians away, INCLUDING CHILDREN, in that parade last week. It's a good thing they have finally put the kibosh on those militant parades.

By the way, buildings used by terrorists as described in the article I linked are usually considered legitimate military targets by army types, aren't they?.

Again, if Abbas did his job, the Israelis wouldn't have to do it for him. Don't you agree?

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I don't agree with you at all...

I disagree with you for exactly the same reasons I disagree with those who'd think there's justifications for attacks on Israeli civilians. Both stances that use endless attempts to justify why it's okay to attack civilian targets sicken me...

I don't recall saying that I thought Hamas had more credibility than the IDF, so I've got no idea what yr going on about there. What I have a problem with is people who take everything the IDF says as concrete 110% fact....

No, schools are NEVER considered legitimate military targets when they're used as schools and have children inside them. If you are going to try disputing that, maybe you could point out the bit of relevant law that says otherwise?

So what if no-one was killed when the school was hit? No-one was killed at the Israeli school either, but that still doesn't make either of the schools being hit justified...

btw, it's not the job of Abbas to drop bombs on schools...

Violet...

[barb162]

32. I don't agree with you either

btw, without sarcasm I think we all know it is the job of Abbas not to go around dropping bombs on any ol' school buildings, but if he would go after the terrorists with his police forces when they are in those same buildings or elsewhere, Israelis and Palestinians would all be a lot better off.


See post 30 for further clarifications

[Lithos]

29. Depends

If indeed Hamas was using it for military purposes.

Here are the pertinent articles from the Hague Conventions:

*********************

Article 25: The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.

Article 26: The Commander of an attacking force, before commencing a bombardment, except in the case of an assault, should do all he can to warn the authorities.

Article 27: In sieges and bombardments all necessary steps should be taken to spare as far as possible edifices devoted to religion, art, science, and charity, hospitals, and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not used at the same time for military purposes.
The besieged should indicate these buildings or places by some particular and visible signs, which should previously be notified to the assailants.

[barb162]

3. Abbas has said his forces are not strong enough ....

But he has thousands of police plus military.
Maybe he should do a few raids every few weeks on the worst militants, get the people in jail, confiscate the weapons and then the Israelis don't have to do it.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. No, that wouldn't work...

Clearly he'd have to bomb schools to get his point across ;)

[barb162]

8. nope, just use 40 missiles" to get his point across"

:satire:

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Okay, that made no sense at all...

Satire generally does :)


Violet...

[barb162]

13. Actually it made plenty of sense, It really is about time

Abbas uses his police and military; he can probably get the worst of the militants under control and not risk "civil war" as he puts it. If Abbas would do his job once in a great while, 40 missiles wouldn't have been flying around and Israel wouldn't have to do HIS policing job for him.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Of course it made sense to you.....

Yr the one who wrote it, so yr not exactly going to say anything other than that :)

What I've been trying to point out to you is that bombing a school isn't Israel doing his policing job for him - it's intentionally targetting a school and civilians, something most people would find just as wrong as Hamas hitting an Israeli school. There are steps Israel can take to ensure its security without violating international law and targetting a school. Can you think of a few? I can....

Violet....

[barb162]

18. Okay, that makes no sense at all

Did you even read the link I posted? What I am trying to point out to you from the article is: "The army said Hamas used the building to raise funds for attacks, recruit militants and assist families of suicide bombers." Do you have some proof, even a little ol'link, that shows the Israeli school was used for terrorist purposes?

A building used only as a school is a civilian target. A building used by terrorists...well now, that's a different story and doesn't seem like a civilian target to me.

The Israelis were targetting a legit terrorist target. Sounds okay to me. By the way, I suspect that is not a violation of international law.

Oh, nitey-nite, Violet , It's getting late

[Violet_Crumble]

20. ...

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Explain to me what made no sense...

Then I can clarify it for you so you can understand :)

A school is NOT a legitimate military target, barb, no matter how you try to spin it. You haven't provided a shred of evidence to show that the school wasn't actually a school, but an evil front for terrorists. Trotting out 'the IDF say it is!!!' isn't proof. They've been very publicly wrong before on this sort of thing. They have a bad habit of labelling just about everything a terrorist target, regardless of whether it is or isn't..

As I said in an earlier post, if you do a bit of basic reading when it comes to international law, you'll find that intentionally targetting civilian buildings such as schools and hospitals is in violation of international law...

Violet...

[eyl]

26. On the contrary

If a civilian structure is being used for military purposes, it loses its protection under international law.

Also, the impression I got from the news reports was that the attack was early in the morning, before the school opened.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. So where's the proof that this wasn't a school, but a military target...

And as I said before, it doesn't matter whether or not anyone was killed or injured, or what time it happened....

Violet....

*on edit - lowercased something in my title after realising I don't need to stress particular words when talking to some posters :)

[eyl]

28. Proof?

We don't need no steenkin proof!

(Sorry, couldn't resist:P - though that joke might come back to haunt me)

More seriously,I don't know the specifics; and therefore, can't supply you with proof in this instance. It's not exactly something made public (though the fact that the school - actually, more of a complex including a school, from some things I've seen - is Hamas-run does not seem in dispute). My point was in response to your general point - that a school is immune from attack under international law. As for the presence of children - in post #19, you wrote

No, schools are NEVER considered legitimate military targets when they're used as schools and have children inside them

(on reflection, my original post should have been a reply to 19, but I caught it too late)

[barb162]

31. Yr making no sense here

If you read the link I provided earlier in the thread, the link clearly indicated this was a school building and Israelis had info indicating it was being used by terrorists.

Do you have any proof (a) this Palestinian building was not being used by terrorists and (b) that the Israeli building was being used by terrorists?

I think it makes a big difference whether a person gets killed or injured in these types of matters. I want to see no one geting hurt or killed, especially innocent people.

[eyl]

33. Or to put it another way

did anyone claim the Israeli school was being used for military purposes?

[barb162]

34. I didn't read any reports that the Israeli building was being used

for military purposes or suspected of same.

[barb162]

30. This is for yr clarification, from Israel's Ministry of Justice

so that you can understand Israel's legal position under international law:

"Terrorists often operate from within homes and civilian structures. When terrorists fire from within these buildings or activate roadside charges from orchards and fields, military necessity dictates the demolition of these locations. Under International Law, these locations are considered legitimate targets. Therefore, in the midst of combat, when dictated by operational necessity, Israeli security forces may lawfully destroy structures used by terrorists."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Demolition+of+Palestinian+Structures+Used+for+Terrorism+-+Legal+Background+-+May+2004.htm

The above happens to agree with my interpretation also. People shouldn't have to be sitting ducks while terrorists are using such buildings for terrorist purposes. Therefore I am correcting your sentence for clarity: "If you do a bit of basic reading when it comes to international law, you'll find that intentionally targetting civilian buildings such as schools and hospitals is "NOT" in violation of international law" when such buildings are used for terrorist purposes.

By the way did you ever find a link that showed the Israeli school targetted by Hamas missiles was used for terrorist purposes?

A few years ago, Clinton "missiled" a house where intelligence indicated Osama bin Laden was. He was missed by a few minutes. I totally agreed with Clinton's action on that particular so-called "civilian" structure, which he considered was being used by terrorists.

[pelsar]

15. school? ...who knows...

since were not there anymore i would say our information is now limited...maybe it was a school, maybe its a front for the hamas maybe its tractor factory.....maybe its a mosque that doubles as a training ground.....

whatever.....its hard to tell from arial photographs just whats inside the buidlings....so?....we can shoot at empty fields but that wont make an impression......we can shoot at empty buildings..but i doubt that will do much..

or we can start wiping out the palestenian infrastructure...that might...just might make an impression enough on the palestenian society that perhaps its really not a good idea to shoot at us across the borders for no other reason than the kill us.

I think its pretty clear now....since were no longer in gaza....if they dont shoot at us....we really wont have much reason to shoot back...

its their problem and unless we make sure that shooting at us really isnt a good idea...they will continue...the protests should now be make 100% against the palestenain society their jihdnakim etc that for reasons unknown to me..prefer to murder israelis instead of concentrating on building a society.

btw they can claim whatever they want....who knows...maybe our artilary isnt that accurate...or our photographs not so upto date....the only way to prevent such horrible things is them to stop shooting.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. The Israeli military knew it was a school...

They said so themselves....


Israel could indeed try to start wiping out what's left of the Palestinian infrastructure, but considering that'd involve murdering a whole bunch of innocent Palestinians in the process, that's not really such a great idea, is it?

You keep on saying everything is their problem. Personally I think that's a complete cop-out, pelsar. It's a problem for Israel as well, and for something positive to come out of all of this, Israel is going to have to also do its bit in the hope that something stable and lasting will emerge. It's in Israel's best interests to do it...

btw, any claims that artillery isn't accurate isn't any sort of excuse as Qassams aren't accurate at all and I've not yet seen anyone here use that as an excuse...

Violet...

[pelsar]

22. a school and a Hamas military HQ

thats using civilians as hostages....cant do that.....thats puts the onus on the hostage takers..they are the guilty ones


no killing civiliains is never a good idea....and it is in our best interests to help the palestenains...but only on the condition that that will help themselves...shooting 40 misslles is not helping themselves

we made the first dramatic move....if they cant follow up, we cant do anything about that....we cant force them to get rid of their fanatics ...and we dont have to get killed while they play internal politics

however, as bad as it may seem....our reprisals...massive ones may be just what abbas needs. If the hamas is shown to prefer attacking israel than caring about its own...if they are seen as the cause for the destruction...then and only then might the palestenian people tell them:

'enough is enough"...but then maybe not

i really dont have an answer..but i do feel relieved that we are out of there and that its now very very clear as to the situation.....We may have to suffer border shootings, but thats nothing new for us..and its a lot better than being inside.....

but in the end....we cant do anything to help the palesteanians if they wont help themselves.

i gave it some more thought...whatever we do...we're going to be critized...even for "leaving to quick"....

i say...we do absolutly nothing for the palastenains...if they want our help...if the arab world, etc would like israel to help the palestenains...which we can more than anybody else...let them ask us in the UN forum.....let it be clear that israel has been "invited to help the palestenains in any way we can."

it is in our interests and the palestenains as well....so lets at least be clear about it.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. That makes two of us who don't really have an answer...

..but when I say that Israel does need to play a positive role in helping, I wasn't meaning that Israel waits till the Palestinians get to whatever point of self-help Israel decides is good and then steps in to help. I was talking about now. Despite the fact that it was a unilateral disengagement, I did read that Israeli and Palestinian security forces did work together, and this is the sort of thing that needs to happen more....

A quick cycleofblame timeline for the reprisals goes along these lines:

* A truck full of live explosives blows up, killing a lot of Palestinians. Hamas, of course, says the explosives were dummies and blames it on Israeli drones, and not on the fact that parading live explosives through a densely packed refugee camp is what caused it.

* Even though Hamas' claims of an Israeli drone are bullshit, they run with it and go on to 'avenge' the Palestinians whose deaths were caused by Hamas themselves by launching missiles into Israel.

* Israel responds to the attack on it by launching a 'crushing response'

And if the past is any indication, that won't be where it'll stop. Which is why I think what's important is worrying about it not escalating even further. Israel has every right to take action to stop missiles being lobbed into its towns, yet in taking action, Israel has to steer a line between doing what's necessary to realistically stop further attacks, and not violating international law in doing so...

Right now Hamas is probably going 'Look at those bastards!! They attacked the Gaza Strip without provocation!!' And just like how most Israelis wouldn't be aware of anything but attacks on them, most Palestinians wouldn't be aware of anything but attacks on them either. So they'd more than likely swallow the Hamas approach hook,line and sinker. That's not doing anything to help marginalise Hamas, imo...

Violet...

[pelsar]

24. i just feel relieved...

relieved that were out of there...relieve that the settlers were shown to secondary to the state....relived that "sharon won again (cant believe i wrote that.....)

and relieve that we have a solid border over there.....and i really really really hope the palestenains can make something out of gaza....there are many israelis who would be happy to go there and invest etc....and more than anything else...i'm glad i dont have to go back there...seeing refugee camps close up, knowing i was part of the system that kept them there...wearing all that equipment alway made me feel like darth vador".....one of the bad guys......never did like it

[Violet_Crumble]

25. I'm glad you don't have to go back there too...

Well, I hope you get to go back in civilian/tourist mode when things settle down there, of course...

Speaking of Sharon - I'm behind him 110% when it comes to a choice between him and Netanyahu, and I'm glad the Netanyahu uprising against him seems to have lived a short life...

May The Force Be With You, Darth! ;)

Cheers...

Violet...