The Important Connections Between The Palestinian Situation And Iraq.

[DistressedAmerican]

Note to mods: Please do not shunt this right off to the IP forum. It bears on the entire direction of antiwar movement. Thanks.
DA
====================================

There has been a great deal of back and forth about people making the link between the Iraq protests and discussion of the the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

I want to say at the outset that any one that believes that criticizing the Israeli state is anti-Semitic or an attack on Jews is wildly wrong. There is nothing anti-Semitic about opposing the occupation of Palestine. So, please do not even start throwing that accusation around.

Anyone that wants to honestly debate the wisdom of making suck a link should understand the following connections:

1) The Israeli occupation has fueled anti-american hatred for decades.
Even in times where our pressure to the two sides to reach a peace agreement was far more evenly applied, we were funding the Israeli military to such a degree that our support created many, many enemies around the globe.

That set the stage for the rise of militant Islam and fueled its recruitment efforts. The ongoing tensions in the region results in widespread instability and ongoing violence and death.

2) The NeoCons have made it clear through the writings of the PNAC that one of the major goals of our overthrow of Saddam was to create a more secure regional environment for the State of Israel.
This is the goal of establishing long term military bases in Iraq. As long as the occupation of Palestine continues, the NeoCons will feel the need to remain tied to Iraq.

3) There are clear and undeniable parallels between the two situations.

I have long said that Iraq was not Vietnam that is was the Israeli/Palestinian situation writ large. The very nature of military occupation breeds continued violence from the occupied. That is then used as an excuse by the occupiers to retaliate with even more force. That swatting a fly with a shotgun approach then serves to fuel more violence from the occupied. We have seen the ongoing "cycle of violence" in the Middle East for decades. What it does is grow. It begins with sticks and moves up to cross border rocket attacks.

Our occupation of Iraq is undergoing the same cycle of violence. Take Fallujah for example. The occupied attacked a car full of military contractors, slaughtered them and hung their burnt bodies from a bridge. We retaliated by largely destroying the entire town and inflicting massive casualties. Well ladies and gentlemen. Those folks that attacked the car were the first wave. The relatives of those killed will return with better weapons and even more motivation to kill us. We are less safe there and at home just like the israelis.

4) The combined effect of our lopsided policies regarding the Israeli occupation and our linked occupation of Iraq multiply each other.

The longer we remain in Iraq and the longer our support for the Israeli occupation is unwavering, the real enemy is having a field day. Bin Laden's recruitment and funding has never been better.

==================
To sum up:
The conflict created (to a large degree) the rise of militant Islam. It fueled the recruitment, funding and training of militant groups throughout the region and created a near cult-like hatred for the occupiers that bred the suicide bomber.

The same cult bred the 19 that used airliners as the biggest suicide bombs in history. As long as Palestine remains occupied, it will continue to fuel the very types of attacks that Bush used to justify the invasion of Iraq and likely soon Iran. The continued instability giver NeoCons an excuse and motivation to remain in the region for the long term future.

Both conflicts act in concert to threaten our nation's security. We should work to end these two parallel occupations. Both are unjust, both are violent beyond justification and both fuel anti-American threats.

In short, the two situations ARE intrinsically linked and both make us less safe.

Comments or debate?

[sam sarrha]

1. excellent insights.. ossama said he did it because we invaded Lebanon

with Israel and put bases in Saudi

[Beaver Tail]

2. This is certinally not anti-Semitic

Anyone acusing this as anti-Semitic cannot distinguish between objecting policies and racism and is in no way fit to debate becasue they cannot divorce their feelings from the situation. Anyhow this is only part of the problem of the anger towards the West from the middle east but a key part.

The US is seen as a country that supports not just Israel but brutal regimes (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Sadam Hussein during the 80’s, the Shah of Iran etc..) in the name of US oil interests. This view happens to be correct.

Israel is part of the whole equation as they are willing to support US interest using military might. If Israel flexes its military muscle it is usually because of Washington tells it to. The countries in the Middle East are too well aware of the military capability of Israel. Palestine has nothing to offer the US so Washington’s moves to support a peace process are just a show.

The Middle East MUST be made strategically irrelevant to see any real peace.

[bryant69]

3. Tricky question

I think it hinges on the term palestine occupation - how much of Isreal has to go away in order to end the occupation of palestine? If the answer is "all of it" well that doesn't strike me as a workable or a moral solution.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[DistressedAmerican]

4. '67 borders And End To Incursions. Actual Autonomy For Palestine.

A Palestiian state.

Possibly a nice robust UN peacekeeping force to patrol the borders.

For starters.

[Misskittycat]

10. In the Cold War, the Soviet Union was backing the Arab side militarily in

a very big way. By no means was this a one-sided superpower intervention into this Middle East conflict. This fact -- which was clear to anyone who was around during the height of the Cold War --is conveniently ignored by pro-Palestinian revisionist historians.

[DistressedAmerican]

11. So They Should Be Occupied Because They Were Backed By COMMIES?

I don't get what you are trying to tell me here.

We should support the continued occupation based on cold war rivalries that died decades ago?

[Misskittycat]

14. The point is to know and tell the truth historically. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

17. Well, Thanks For That I Guess.

How that tidbit relates to how we should handle our foreign policy NOW escapes me. It may have explained some of what we were doing 20 or 30 years ago. But, it says nothing about what we are up to today.

Our main reason now is that they are our only real friend in a region chock full of black gold. Just to be historically accurate, that was what drove the Soviets as well.

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Total and complete misreading of history, geology, and economics

"1) The Israeli occupation has fueled anti-american hatred for decades."

What has fueled anti-American hatred has been our close ties with the Saudi Royal family - and the "exploitation" (yes, I am using "exploitation" in the Marxist sense) of the Arab "proletariat" (yes, I am using "proletariat" in the Marxist sense)- and the use of the Saudi peoples' birthright (their oil wealth) for debauchery, casinos, race horses, etc. outside the kingdom while enforcing a stern, puritanical Wahabi flavor of Islam within the Kingdom.

"2) The NeoCons have made it clear through the writings of the PNAC that one of the major goals of our overthrow of Saddam was to create a more secure regional environment for the State of Israel."

First, take yourself over to the and read all of those boring Adobe Acrobat files, etc. I have! Once you disregard the wet dreams of Kookie William Kristol, you will see the the "Project for a New American Century is totally oil driven.

Read some basic books about the historical context (before Herzl, try starting from the discovery of oil, or its first use as a fuel for ships or as a precursor for plastics) petroleum politics and petroleum geopolitics -- like "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" by F. William Engdahl and "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy" by Matthew R. Simmons.

Do some reading about "peak oil" - try "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes or "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes or "Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein or "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" by James Howard Kunstler

The point - PNAC is an extreme, right wing, "America First" reaction to "Peak Oil" in a "mono-polar" world. That is, the PNAC model is that the US must project power and assert hegemony over the petroleum producing lands.

"3) There are clear and undeniable parallels between the two situations."

And I have long said that the only parallel is that they each involve Islamic peoples. It is more like Japan's a war on the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) to obtain oil.

"4) The combined effect of our lopsided policies regarding the Israeli occupation and our linked occupation of Iraq multiply each other."

It is our support for every Middle Eastern autocrat who can feed our heroin-cocaine-meth like craving for petroleum. You might want to read Craig Unger's "House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties"

I have spent 3/4's of a 40 plus year professional career in the energy industry. Check out my blog

Added on edit in response to

The conflict created (to a large degree) the rise of militant Islam. It fueled the recruitment, funding and training of militant groups throughout the region and created a near cult-like hatred for the occupiers that bred the suicide bomber.

The same cult bred the 19 that used airliners as the biggest suicide bombs in history. As long as Palestine remains occupied, it will continue to fuel the very types of attacks that Bush used to justify the invasion of Iraq and likely soon Iran. The continued instability giver NeoCons an excuse and motivation to remain in the region for the long term future.

That's not the viewpoint of Unger ("House of Bush, House of Saud: The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties"), or Engdahl (A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order") or Simmons ("Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy").

It's all about our support of the most autocratic oil potentates.

[DistressedAmerican]

8. You Are Talking About The Other Half Of The Equation, Not Refuting This

The oil motivation is well known and understood. I talk about it all the time. You are right. I should have prefaced that this was not the only situation at work.

The Palestinian issue is however often completely dismissed by those overly obsessed with a single factor (oil) causation of our problems.

You are correct that our support of the corrupt Saudi regime also fuels anti-American hatred. But, your assertion that that is somehow the only major source of this hatred is way off base.

I have read their site thoroughly. I have reposted much of their material both here and on my website. They are focused on both oil ans Israel. Reread their 1998 Defense Strategy for the 21st century. The two themes are well mixed. One does not refute the other.

The parallels do exist. The occupation of arab land is a clear parallel but, the occupation od Muslim lands by non-Muslims is a major issue in both and fuels a kind of ideological resentment that was not present in Vietnam.

I have also read Unger's book. I think it is excellent. As is Bob Bear's "Sleeping with the devil. Clearly the oil relations are destroying our image abroad.

But oil not the only factor at work. If you think it is, you have chosen to obsess over oil to the exclusion of all other sources of conflict.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Israel is a tertiary level effect

compared to oil.

[DistressedAmerican]

13. In General I Completely Agree. But This Is A Factor That Is Rarely

discussed, an IMPORTANT factor. Not tertiary. Secondary perhaps.

We completely ignore it at our peril.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Tertiary, not secondary

and the problem with this point is that it cannot be discussed rationally

I will be brutally honest here

Lets assume for a second we win, the troops come home, we retrench to a 1930s America First we don't care about the world country (that can be one consequence of leaving Iraq a complete isolationist policy) That my dear will not stop the Israeli - Arab problem...

The Arab leadership has used classic antisemitism since the state was founded. While most of the world said after the holocaust, you know maybe the Protocols of the Elder of Zion are not cool guess what is sold in the streets and encouraged by their leadership.

Also our playing around with issues such as getting involved in Saudi Politics, go as far back as at least WW II, and FDR...

The problem is that the Palestinian issue is part of the deadly brew but it is not the principal component. I'd say our intervention in Arab politics (and Persian with the overthrow of Mossed in the 1950s and the establishment of the Shah), as well as our backing of governments that are all but democratic has far more to do with it. Does Israel have a place in this brew? Yes but insofar as PNAC is concerned, it is at best a tertiary issue.... and we need to face Peak Oil and the fact that we have been prepping the House of Saud for many ... many years.

Oh and we have been intervening in the general events of the ME for as long as the Soviets did.

I will give one point to OBL, and why pulling is a bad idea in the very short term. (And I am willing to live with that consequence by the way) According to OBL the reason the USSR collapsed like a house of cards is purely him and his band or ragtags in Afghanistan, He brought a super power down (There are plenty of books on this) Never mind it was him supported by us, (read Brzezinski that was part of his plan) and other factors.

Again exactly what did Israel have to do with Afghanistan in the 1980s?

So this witch's brew is far more complex and for an origin of it, go back to the Summer of 1919, that is the true origin of why Arabs hate the West in general and the US in particular... that Summer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Can I add a book to your list?

Please

The Grand Chess Game by Zbigniew Brzezinski, laying out the need for playing in the Central Asian plain

Israel and the PNACers have some common goals but by no means was the PNAC plan driven by Israel, not that Israel minded this at all.


:-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. that was a masterful answer

but you know it is far sexier to say that we are in the ME because of Israel, I know that if Israel went away tomorrow we would still be in the ME... doing what we have been doing for a century or so

[DistressedAmerican]

25. I Didn't Say We Would Leave The WE If Israel Was Not An Issue.

I said that it IS an issue. Oil is a bigger issue. But, Israel is an issue and it should not be overlooked.

Can you deny that the occupation of Israel serves (and had served for decades) as a recruiting tool for terrorist organizations like Al Qaeda?

Can you really deny that our support of Israel has made us a target to those that they recruit?

Can you really deny that the PNAC has made it clear that one of their major goals is to secure Israel, our lone regional allie?

Can you really deny that the bases being established have securing Israel as one of their goals as has been repeatedly stated by the PNAC?

If you deny all of that, I have to wonder where you are coming from.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Point by point

I said that it IS an issue. Oil is a bigger issue. But, Israel is an issue and it should not be overlooked.

-----------
Nobody is
-------------

>>>Can you deny that the occupation of Israel serves (and had served >>>for decades) as a recruiting tool for terrorist organizations like >>>Al Qaeda?

_----------
The base, that is what Al Qaida means, principal recruitment tool is NOT Israel but he Great Satan aka us. The beef between AQ and the United States are Christian Troops in the holy lands of Islam, that is arabya, Saudi Arabia.

Now if you talk about Hamas that is a whole different ball of wax, but they are part of the Israeli Palestinian crisis, integral in effect and they usd to be secular until they found out religion sold better.
-----------------

>>>Can you really deny that our support of Israel has made us a target >>>to those that they recruit?

-------------------
Which organziation? The base absolutely not, it is all about Sauid Arabia and the holy lands of Saudi Arabia... Americans, for the most part, have not been vicitims of hammas, or the PLO in its day... even Black September rather kill an Israeli than an American.
___________________

>>>Can you really deny that the PNAC has made it clear that one of >>>their major goals is to secure Israel, our lone regional allie?

-----------------

Ax you were told read the damn PDFs, hell even the main one does not contain Israel as the main reason... but never mind I like to READ primary sources, not secondary ones.

-----------------------

>>>Can you really deny that the bases being established have securing >>>Israel as one of their goals as has been repeatedly stated by the >>>PNAC?

----------------
No the bases being establshed have the goal of cotroling the energy supply in the age of Peak Oil. Their SECONDARY benefit involves maybe the protection of Israel. Even Israelis outside of the far right realize the danger of what the US is doing... to them, because of anitsemitism, which is sexy, it is about Israel no it is not... it is about geo politics, and the control of energy.



>>>If you deny all of that, I have to wonder where you are coming >>>from.

From readynig the damn PDFs, I have actually done it, just as Coastie has done. And I must say, as temting as it is to say we are there for Israel, we are not, we are there for Peak Oil. It is, in all the comoplexities, that simple... and right now antisemism is being used in the US in the same cynical way the leadership in the Arab World has usd it to distract its people... look shiny bauble, it is the damn Israelis.

Now does the Arab Israeli crisis exacerbate everything, absolutely, but if the radicals got their wet dream and Israel was levelled all teh way to the sea and the Jews thrown out, we woudl still be there becuse god damn it, they have our oil under their sands and we need that oil to keep driving this economy... it is geopolitics... and Israel, if it went away, woudl not mean we would stop. We will only stop after Peak Oil... is well over and we have a new alternate fuel source of people are dying by teh billions because of peak oil.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Slight correction and for clarity sake

AQ will go after Americans and Westerners, we are the great satan and the enemy... Israel is so tertiary to their goals it is not even funny

Hammas and other Pro Palestinian groups will go after Israelis chiefly and if an American happens to be there, it is called a target of opportunity, but for the most part they don't... unless you are an American Jew... why? if they started killing Americans the support from the American left (or at least some sections of it) would go away... something about self preservation and they know it. Their best allies ar actually American Jews who have bought into all the Bullshit they espouse, well almost all of it... but Hamass goal, just as the PLO at one time, the destruction of the State of Israel, not the United States.

You have to learn the history of movements, and incidentally Hammas had its origin not in the Palestinian crisis but the Bekaa valley and the Lebanese Civil War, but they morphed after Israel made the critical mistake of invading Lebanon, which came from the bombings in the south to the kibbutzim in the north. and I will argue that invasion was a strategic mistake for Israel, not to mention wrong. Bur right and wrong has nothing to do with geopoltiics... which should be one lesson of what we are doing in Iraq.

Oh and for the record, Bush does not get it either, he is a puppet of a very sick imperial policy whose goal is to control OIL and it is not a game... not at all, for who controls those sources of diminishing oil will in many ways control the economies of multiple nations and regions.... why the Chinese are gang busters about controlling their sources of oil... and creating a blue navy capable of projecting force across the pacific... what we are seeing is a classic resource war...

[Englander]

64. In your 3rd paragraph, you mean *Hezbollah*, not Hamas.

Hamas origins are in the Muslim Brotherhood, here's a history of the
MB from the Eypgtian media;

'Politics in God's name

Al-Ahram Weekly
Issue No. 247
16 - 22 November 1995

"God is our purpose, the Prophet our leader, the Qur'an our constitution, Jihad our way and dying for God's cause our supreme objective." This is the slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood, established by Hassan El-Banna in 1928, banned by President Gamal Abdel-Nasser in 1954, but tolerated, in varying degrees, by Presidents Anwar El-Sadat and Hosni Mubarak. Advocating Islam as not only a religion but a system encompassing all aspects of life, the group's objective is the establishment of an Islamic state.'

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/archives/parties/muslimb/polgod.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

43. Have you read the PNAC documents

You asked - or asserted --

Can you really deny that the PNAC has made it clear that one of their major goals is to secure Israel, our lone regional allie?

Can you really deny that the bases being established have securing Israel as one of their goals as has been repeatedly stated by the PNAC?

Have you actually read the ? Have you actually read all of turgid, boring, pompous content inthose Adobe Acrobat files, etc. I have! And what's left after you disregard the wet dreams of William Kristol? What you have left is that at its core the "Project for a New American Century is totally oil driven.

Our one major goal in the ME is to project military power over the
OIL
lands so as to attain hegemony over
OIL
and to protect an economy and life style built on cheap, plentiful
OIL,
no matter how many American lives it costs in Iraq - or the Asian former Republics of the former USSR.

The bases being established in Iraq - and in the Asian former Republics of the former USSR have as their goal securing
OIL.

I have read the the - and I have suffered through not just "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" by F. William Engdahl and "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy" by Matthew R. Simmons and "Beyond Oil : The View from Hubbert's Peak" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes or "Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes or "Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil" by David Goodstein or "The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Century" by James Howard Kunstler, but also such key books on
OIL
as Smith & VanNess and Bird, Stewart, and Lightfoot, and McCabe and Smith, and Moore, and a lot of other either equally exciting stuff.

[The Stranger]

48. The ideology driving the War has nothing to do with oil.

Read it in their own words. They never mention oil. They vote -- oil does not vote.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4905576

[Coastie for Truth]

59. It is OIL

I have been in alternative, renewable, and green energy for 30+ of the last 40+ years of my professional career -- from nuke power to wind power, and from solar energy to Peltier-Sabbatier -- including a bunch of years with the prime contractor for General Motors' "Electric Vehicle I."

Oil votes.

1.

2.

3.

4.

As long as we're at it - who is the Bush family Consigliere - and Poppie Bush's Chief of Staff -- - who is also Consigliere to Shell, ExxonMobil, and the House of Saud.

Some more questions -

1. What businesses was Bushie in - beside baseball? OIL
2. What is Halliburton;s non-defense business? OIL field services

Oil per se may not vote - but it's employees vote - and contribute.

[The Stranger]

65. The last election was not won by oil company employees, it was won by an

army of brainwashed ideologues, who were told how to vote and who obeyed, prompted by a good dose of homophobia, xenophobia and good old fashioned hate.

[Coastie for Truth]

67. As Mark Feldt told Woodward and Bernstein

FOLLOW THE MONEY

I am in the "Industry" - I grew up in the Coal Fields of SW Pennsylvania and West Virginia - my Dad was a UMW lawyer (and a hard rock coal geologist) in PA and WV.

I worked as an oil industry safety and environmental regulator in the Coast guard -- in Texas and Louisiana.

I have been in synthetic fuel, nuke, photovoltaics, Sabbatier-Peltier, fuel cells, batteries, co-gen/distributed gen, and electric cars for 30+ of the last 40+ years.

IT IS ALL ABOUT OIL

OIL OWNS BUSH AND CHENEY - BUSH AND CHENEY GREW UP IN OIL - BUSH LOST HIS FIRST MILLIONS IN OIL -- CHENEY MADE HIS MILLIONS IN OIL


IT IS ALL ABOUT OIL


Because the MSM wouldn't do it (and because I am semi-retired and "have the discretionary time") I spent a month during the 2000 campaign "following the money" of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. A heck of a lot of it came from owners of privately held oil industry companies.

[gulfcoastliberal]

6. I disagree. I think occupying SA after GW1 and the encouragement of the

mujahdeen (lead by OBL) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan seeded the roots of terrorism as we know it today. And remember Iran-Contra and the Iran-Iraq war? Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia all could have helped the Palestinians by attempting peace talks called for by the UN rather than launching unprovoked wars against Israel. I think the entire I/P issue is overblown and many facts are either changed or distorted. The Arab world and extermist Islam would hate America whether we aided Israel or not. Now, the Iraq occupation is causing far more hatred than Israel. We invaded for oil, not to "protect Israel". The Israeli military is far superior to any country that might threaten them. Why not some introspective? Why doesn't the US honor its treaties with Native Americans, instead of forcing them to live in some of the most horrible conditions anywhere? Are we not occupiers? Is your house and neighborhood situated on ancient native americans grounds? Do you know? If it was, would you move out and give it up to whatever tribe once had title to the land, and maybe still does? Such hypocrisy. This nation is guilty of far more egregious crimes, say in South America, and within our borders than Israel is. Yet we don't have South American terrorists or Native Americans attacking us.

This enimity with the the Arabs is all caused by religion (Chrisitianity) and goes back to the crusades - when, I might add, Jews were in Jerusalem before the religion of Islam was even created.

[ElectroPrincess]

9. Request ...

Let's PLEASE not get into "my history books are better than yours!" type of debating on this issue. Please please please ... we all lose then. :(

[Misskittycat]

16. With respect, some history books are in fact more accurate and

more balanced. We don't do anyone any favors by spouting rhetoric not based up by fact.

[ElectroPrincess]

37. yes, just like ...

Some humans are more EQUAL than others.

My point, it's all debatable. So, although I have a masters in physiological psychology, I don't pretend to know every damn thing about how the mind interacts with our biology.

Hope you get it-if not, I at least tried to spare the forum for a historical flame fest. :-)

[barb162]

61. Yeah, but you could take a group of PhDs in history from major

universities around the world and still come up with pretty much the same history of events. Now some of them may dispute whether economic or social or political factors were most important at one time or another and arguments along those lines,but you will get a pretty clear picture of what was really going on. Historians can argue for a hundred years about the real causes of the French Revolution but no real historians deny it happened.

[gulfcoastliberal]

21. Hey, my BS in History is good for something!

Like posting on these types of threads! Ah, if I only got paid for it! Remember, those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it! And many of todays issues do indeed stretch back for many hundreds if not thousands of years of history.

[Malikshah]

18. Oh, Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is a fascinating topic. As it was made the capital of the Hebrew Kingdom during David's reign. He chose a locale that was not "owned" by any of the tribes-- neutral territory as it were... more's the pity that the UN plan to have Jerusalem an international zone never worked out.

In other words--the whole "religion caused enmity" ruse is just that--a ruse. There is so much more to the enmity between peoples in the world. The initial post hones in on one of the key issues-- killing one's family members, one's peoples while one occupies them. The religious rhetoric might be used--but in the end it's just rhetoric-- all sound and fury signifying nothing unless one has something concrete to latch on to (like, say...the death of one's town, village, family....)

[Chi-Town Exile]

23. Sorry, that is a massive generalization

One need look no further than the conflicts between the Protestants and Catholics in Belfast!

What about the mass murders of Muslims in the Balkans?

Religion has been a HUGE part of human discord that is painfully obvious no matter what agenda is driven by ANY history book.


(edited for spelling)

[Malikshah]

34. Actually-- I agree that religion shouldn't get off free

I was just stating that it is often used as a reason--when in fact the hatred is based on other issues.

Hmmm Prots and Caths in Belfast...nothing to do w/ occupying foreigners...oh, OK.

Hmmmm Muslims in the Balkans...nothing to do w/ the "other" or the downtrodden...oh, OK.

Religion is culpable-- but it's often in the NAME of a religion-- used as a ruse.

so there. :)

[barb162]

62. wonderful post and I agree with almost every word. Speaking of

helping the Palestinians, about 400,000 Palestinians were basically kicked out of Kuwait because they supported Iraq during the Gulf War. Does bin Laden hate Kuwait for that? Was Kuwait hauled before the UN and given violations or sanctions?

The Jews were in Jerusalem and environs hundreds of years before both Islam and Christianity. They were also there during the British Mandate and before.

Bin Laden's main concern in his first papers was not Israel at all; it was about the land of the two holy cities ( and I don't mean Los Angeles and San Fran) and his visions of the grand islamic caliphates, jihad, etc. Only in his later writings did he bring up Israel like an afterthought. I think because of the poor leadership skills of many in the Mideast, the dictatorships, etc., and bin Laden's later terrorist acts, he started getting noticed by the man on the street as a man of action. Then the hero worship started.

Yeah to the let's have everyone who isn't a native of where they live leave and go back to whereever. USA, Canada, Australia, etc., everyone o-u-t but the native original peoples. People who aren't absolutely original to the area they live shouldn't throw stones at Israel. Even in S. and Middle America when various tribes and peoples were conquering each other, how do you straighten that out. What? Hey all Incas, get back to within five miles of Machu Picchu? Hey all Aztecs, get out of northern Mexico as you conquered /killed other native peoples living there earlier? Hey any Norwegians in England, you were killing and raping the Saxons, so get the hell back to Norway. Kick all Northern Africans out of southern Spain from when they invaded in the Middle Ages? There's no end to this. LOL to all of this. Hundreds of millions of people will have to start packing their bags.

:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:

[izzybeans]

7. I agree with a parallel, which I think some are bound to confuse

with "link". As any social parallel eventually recedes into the distance there are some differences, as our occupying force is not interesting in occupying land but merely translating it into capital, which makes more sinister IMHO.

I mean come on you anti-semite, those bulldozers and bombs come in peace and love! They bring tears of joy to everyone. :sarcasm:

[H2O Man]

20. Nominated.

Very well done. Those who are disagreeing confuse what they think with what those in the Middle East think. One only need read some of the writings of those who hate the USA to know this is true.

I think that one can be pro-Israel and disagree with some of the Israeli government's policies, just as one can be pro-USA, and oppose some of our government's policies. Being pro-Israeli does not force one to be anti-Palestinian.

Thank you for a great post.

[Karenina]

31. Once again Waterman, you nail the central issue

"Those who are disagreeing confuse what they think with what those in the Middle East think."

Americans are not really open to putting their realities aside and hearing "the other" through. You have the same problem when it comes to racism in your own country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Oh and as an aside I started two paralell discusions on

the origins of the mess some monmths ago, the one stickkign to SA staid here, the mods moved the Isreal Palestine one so don't be too surprised, never mind I begged them not to

[centristo]

26. close, but you're still off

1) The Israeli occupation has fueled anti-american hatred for decades.

-This does not address anti-Americanism prior to the creation of Israel or even prior to 1967. North Africa and the Arab states were fighting America and its allies as far back as World War I. Its not like the American-Arab relationship entered the modern era on great terms.

-Hamas and other like-minded groups don't want to end the occupation. They want to end Israel and kill at worst or deport at best every man, woman and child within its borders. The "occupation" therefore, is not the root of the "anti-Americanism". The root is that a state of Israel, a nation of Jews, exists at all! Not every Palestinian believes this by any means, however Hamas is growing, not diminishing, in popularity within the PA...

2) The NeoCons have made it clear through the writings of the PNAC that one of the major goals of our overthrow of Saddam was to create a more secure regional environment for the State of Israel.

-As mentioned in other posts Oil is the true trophy for the PNAC.

3) There are clear and undeniable parallels between the two situations.

-There are some parallels, I don't think that can be denied, but they are not as great as some contend. You should check out MEMRI.org and tell me if you agree with everything the Arab world is watching these days. There is a perpetual deception and distortion of Israel and America within the Arab world. We could blame the Israeli occupation for this, or we could blame those who spread this false and inflammatory information.

4) The combined effect of our lopsided policies regarding the Israeli occupation and our linked occupation of Iraq multiply each other.

-The effect of America trying to impose its will on its own oil suppliers is the true inequality in the equation. When the day comes that the world no longer requires oil you will see a a lasting peace in the middle east. No change in Israeli policy will ever match this level of reform/revolution.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. They Hate Us Because We Prop Up A Bunch Of Unpopular Regimes

Without American support it's hard to see how the Gulf sheikdoms, Egypt, and Jordan survive...


The problem is that there are no good options, that America is conflicted....We ostensibly promote democracy in the Middle East with the knowledge that most nations in the area if they truly had democratic elections would vote for leaders inimical to our interests...


It's a mess....

[bloom]

29. It seems to me there could be link

between people who support Israel's occupation and treatment of Palestinians and people who support the US occupation of Iraq.

There is also the thing about Saddam supporting/paying suicide bombers in Israel - so it wouldn't surprise me that on that basis alone - pro-Israeli people would support what we have done in Iraq.

The way the US military has conducted the war - like you say, "swatting a fly with a shotgun" does make one wonder where they are going with this.

And while they say a lot in their PNAC playbook - what aren't they saying? It's not like they are going to reveal all of their plans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. There you go into the psycology of a people

and how they are made to suport a war... we all complaint about the media... well the media plays a critical role in this

Hamas is not peachy kleen when it comes to bombing people but you WILL hear about it on CNN... when the IDF responds, rightly or wrongly you will not see the gory details... thankfully those on the ground do, and there are efforts on both sides, to basically get what is needed to the inocent bystanders, such as damn it wheelchairs (again you don't hear of this too often, now do you)

And when the Israelis do an incursion, rightly or wrongly, you won't hear of the gory details either... and for the record the Israelis learned Arab law in some ways, eye for an eye, ok... and that is one reason why the cycle continues... and will continue until both sides decide enough is enough.

A lot of this is message control... part of the message is that Hammas is tied to Al Qaida and they are part of the same organization, WRONG... they are not. Hamas precedes AQ by at least ten years... and their goals are quite simple: Destroy Israel. The are as radical as Black Semtember was at one point, or more.

AQ saw its origin in Afghanistan where the principals leared OUR play book... CIA, and their goal, AFTER GW 1, was to get the US out of the holy lands (incidentally they have, for the most part, succeeded), and to get rid of the House of Saud which is keeping the people of Saudi Arabia poor, as well as living the western unpure life outside of the Kingdom...

Now antisemitism and anit western thought is allowed to flourish by all governments in the region for that keeps their people distracted from their own internal policies... and for that Israel serves a great foil.. if Israel goes away... I wonder what the Government of Jordan will do to keep its masses distracted.

And I am serious here...

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Pro Israel - and do NOT support our American Blood for Oil War In Iraq

I have also been in the (alternative, renewable, green) energy industry in one form or another for 3/4's of a 40 year plus career --- drive a Prius --- and live in a "transit village" condo.

The PNAC playbook is totally (when you get past Bill Kristol's wet dreams) - at its core - about projecting power and asserting hegemony for
OIL.

(I have down loaded and read all of the darn Adobe Acrobat files -- read Engdahl's history that lays out the PNAC playbook in proper historical, economic, and geological context).

The problem is our heroin - cocaine- meth addiction to petroleum for our 12 mile per gallon humongous "suburban soccer mom" SUVs -- and our total and complete disdain for mass transit and urban living --- which makes us as dependent on the worst forces in the region as we are on the Colombian Drug Lords.

[Colorado Blue]

35. I think you're a little wrong on several points.

First, it isn't antisemitic to criticize the Government of Israel, any more than it's anti-American to criticize George Bush.

However, comments like "Get Israel out of Palestine", which sound like a call for the destruction of Israel, blaming the Arab/Israeli conflict for the stress between Islam and the West - which in fact dates back centuries, confusing the PNAC agenda to make Israel less dependent on the US and more secure within the Middle Eastern mileau with something sinister that would come at the expense of Arab states rather than involving them in economic and social ties with the Israelis - which in fact is happening, involving joint projects between Jordan, Israel, Egypt and the P.A. - these oversimplications do have an antisemitic tinge.

Indeed, one must bear in mind that PNAC is DICK CHENEY'S group and Israel's well-being is hardly the primary goal of the oil industry. Rather, the acquisition of oil and the dominance of this key resource are considered central to the continuing hegemony of the US, as well as YOUR economic well-being. We are ALL involved in this pipeline; we are all consumers, and our way of life utterly depends upon oil.

The modern Middle East was carved from the remains of the Ottoman Empire by the British and the French following World War I - indeed it was a key target of the British during that conflict, as they sought to deny Germany rail access to Iraq and Kuwait; it was fought over again in World War II, and it continues to be THE focal point of geostrategic concerns in the 21st century.

This has NOTHING to do with Israel, other than to harm its people, because they're caught up in the conflicts between these great forces.

The Iraq conflict has its roots in the Reagan/Bush administration, when Saddam Hussein was empowered as a secular (albeit dictatorial) counterbalance to the Iranian mullahs. It was not a recent reflection of the Arab/Israeli conflict at all, but indeed is rooted in oil politics and in the geostrategic importance of the Middle East and Central Asia.

The US and Britain are hardly the only powers to have been involved in a battle for control of this region. The Soviets were actively involved as well, arming and funding many of the more radical Arab states AND the PLO, and directly involved in warfare in Afghanistan.

Do I need to point out the fact that the PLO and the regimes of the states which attacked Israel repeatedly, and which were funded by the Soviets, played an ENORMOUS role in keeping the I/P conflict from resolution and thereby deliberately kept the area "hot" and the West off balance and punished economically?

Now that the Soviet Union has fallen there is a great deal of violence all throughout the newly created Central Asian states - many of which are loaded with oil. Great pipeline projects are underway to bring Central Asian oil to ports on the Med and south, through India. The Taliban and other radical groups directly threaten these projects, so keeping control of the region is an economic necessity, not just for the west but for Europe and the developing world - not to mention China and Korea, Taiwan and Japan and the other Asian powerhouses. Of course many of the people who live in the region have other ideas as to who should control the region and its resources, and its leaders walk a thin line between their clients and the nationalist, religious and insurgent forces who would threaten the balance.

Oversimplifying these issues, or placing more than a minor part of the blame for the stress between America and this region on Israel or singling out American Jews like Wolfie and Perle for supposedly causing oil imperialism - as I have seen in posts on this forum - most certainly IS antisemitic. It is also playing into the hands of violent forces and dictatorial regimes, which have successfully used the Israelis as scapegoats for their own problems, and to deflect attention from the urgent need for this region to reform politically and develop economically.

Do we want to help modify these governments, help the people of the region develop economically and defang the terrorists, or do we want to play into radical and dictatorial hands by buying their line that Israel is to blame for all their woes?

Finally, the parallels between the war in Iraq and the occupation of the West Bank are non-existent. Israel has been engaged in an existential war for survival since day 1 of her existence, when she was attacked by 5 Arab armies. The Territories, which had been controlled by Egypt and Jordan - incidentally NOT by the Palestinian people - were invaded in the war of 1967 to prevent the nation from being overrun. It's important to realize that Israel is only 6 miles wide in places and there is NO room for error here.

Meanwhile, UN 242 states that land is to be returned in exchange for peace treaties - which haven't been forthcoming.

Nevertheless, Israel has disengaged from Gaza and was almost immediately bombarded by dozens of rockets, courtesy of Hamas, which accidentally blew up a truck full of explosives at a parade, killing and injuring dozens of people, and attacked Israel in retaliation for their own incompetence.

Demands for the immediate withdrawal from the West Bank reflect a breathtaking lack of awareness of the issues involved here. There are forces, which the P.A. refuses to disarm, that wish to see Israel destroyed and her 6 million citizens, dead. Do you really see a parallel between this situation and Iraq?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

77. Note:

Masada2000.org is a Kahanist affiliated website and not considered acceptable for use on DU. Not only does it have a bigoted agenda, the Kahanist party is considered a terrorist group by not only by the US, but by Israel.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Peace Patriot]

36. I agree. The Israel/Palestine conflict is the "elephant in the room" of

most discussions of the Iraq war. It is among the three main reasons that this illegal, unjust and devastating war was inflicted on the Iraqi people and upon us--the other two being massive war profiteering and theft of other peoples' oil.

I tend to think that the Bush Cartel's "defense" of Israel is about as sincere as their "defense" of us (they couldn't even defend the Pentagon!), and that Israel is making a tragic error in welcoming a fascist coup in the U.S. and playing along with it to get and keep a huge U.S. military presence in the Middle East. This is NOT making Israel safe, and could easily result in the nuclear poisoning of the entire region.

Already, the Bush Cartel has driven Iran--a once democratic country where the CIA destroyed a democratically elected president and installed the horrible Shah (who was then ousted by the Islamic revolution)--into desperate measures (nukes) to defend itself. The Cartel plan of destroying the sovereignty of Arab/Muslim countries in the region--for the purposes of further war profiteering and dominating the Mid-East oil fields--is very clear. It is a plan for endless bloodshed and endless "insurgency" that CANNOT result in peace, and that could result in utter disaster.

And Israel's current condition as a medieval armed fortress--to the point of even building a wall around itself in and out of Palestinian lands--is simply untenable. That is what Israel's right wing has done--adopted a fascist view of the world in which armaments rule, and in which the skilled arts that can create real safety for a society--diplomacy, generosity, understanding, compassion, finding common cause, devotion to justice and fairness--are abandoned.

I think Israel has made a "devil's bargain" with the Bush Cartel, and that anyone who truly reveres Israel as a rightful homeland for the Jews--after so many centuries of injustice, mostly at the hands of Europeans--will fight to divorce its cause from these global corporate predators. I think the "neocon" philosophy is mere window dressing for massive aggression and looting, and that Israel will rue the day that it collaborated with these extraordinarily hypocritical thieves and murderers, if their aggression and greed don't kill us all.

We may not have a history to be written. We may just blow ourselves off the face of the earth--and suffer the slow death of the "Cold and the Dark" described in Carl Sagan's book about the impacts to our planet of even a limited nuclear exchange. We are certainly, meanwhile, suffering the slow death of our planet by global warming, pollution and destruction of natural resources--with these people, the Bushites, ruling over the U.S., encouraging global corporate predators, and making NO effort to join with other countries in environmental initiatives.

The Mid-East situation may just hurry it all along--more environmental destruction capped by nuclear winter.

The rest of us must realize that the Middle East is a tinder box. It may be too much to expect Israel to act with wisdom and sanity, given its perilous situation, surrounded by hostile countries. But everything the Bush Cartel has done has made Israel's situation MORE perilous, including, but by no means limited to, its FAILURE to act as an "honest broker" between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Trying to look at this from an Arab/Muslim point of view--which is very difficult for me, culturally, but which we MUST try to do--it surely appears that Israel and the west have been out to destroy the sovereignty, independence and self-determination of Arab/Muslim countries. There are certain actions of the west that can have no other construction (destruction of Iranian democracy, for instance, and the western support of super-rich dictators in Saudi Arabia). The west has been highly successful in decimating Arab/Muslim society, and Arab/Muslim society therefore has a LONG way to go, merely to re-build the infrastructure of a successful society, let alone to realize dreams of a vast Muslim caliphate such as they had in the Middle Ages (when Islamic society far outclassed western Europe in education, culture, science, medicine, AND religious TOLERANCE!).

We need to understand these two broad generalizations about the current Arab/Muslim world: 1) west-induced poverty and lack of community infrastructure (good schools, for instance), and the need to start at the bottom rungs of development; and 2) how the dream of a vast Muslim caliphate derives from these conditions, and provides young Muslims with self-esteem and higher goals, outside of the egoistic self.

I was very impressed with how the Shiite communities--the poorest in Iraq--were the ONLY ones who were able to immediately respond to the chaos and devastation of the Bush Cartel's invasion, and immediately began organizing to defend hospitals from looters, and to provide potable water, and all the basics of life. THAT is community strength--from the bottom up. And THAT is why the Islamic religion and how it operates as social GLUE is so important to the people who believe in it. It is not just a religion. It is EVERYTHING that makes organized, civilized life possible in regions of the world where the west has time and again acted as a highly destructive force, and has tried to smash all such organization, in efforts to exploit resources and create empire. The British and the French did it before us. Now it's US, doing the same thing.

So, let them dream! That's their RIGHT. If these various peoples (about a third of the world) want to overcome the centuries of devastation and deterioration that they have suffered--and NEED Islam to do that, to rebuild a strong society--LET THEM. If the happenstance that many of them sit upon the world's last oil supplies causes us fear of not being able to fill up our SUV tanks, and prompts this Cartel to fiddle our elections and give US dictators, then you and I know what the remedy is: 1) DIPLOMACY and negotiation with the PEOPLE who own the oil (not with their dictators!), AND, of course, 2) get the goddamn hell off of our dependence on OIL!

I'm talking about an HONEST WORLD, in which, for instance, the existence of Israel and the right of the Jews to have a homeland there is not negotiable, but in which EVERYTHING ELSE *IS* negotiable.

Maybe it's a dreamworld--but we, too, are allowed to have dreams. We can dream up a world in which the basic desire of all the world's people for peace and justice is reflected in their governments, and becomes the goal of all foreign policy. We can dream up a world in which nobody needs a monstrous war machine; in which no country has that parasite on their backs; and in which the best skills and highest desires of human beings are employed to the benefit of all.

Thomas Jefferson dreamed of a country like that. Now we can dream of an entire world like that, a world aimed at peace and justice, and not aimed at its own demise.

Some will say, "They attacked us!"--the corollary being that we therefore have a right to torture and kill "them" by the tens of thousands, in order to prevent more attacks. That's the Bush Cartel propaganda line. Well, aside from the fact that the people we are torturing and killing did NOT attack us, do we really KNOW who DID attack us on 9/11? The investigation of it was white-washed, and most facts about it are hidden. (Why did the Air Force stand down that day--and not implement normal protections?--for instance.) It's really rather important to know WHO attacked you, and, *IF* we can establish that it was suicidal Islamic fanatics, WHY did they do it? What could have caused 19 people to plan for years to commit suicide?

And is that what happened? Or, were THEY hoodwinked in some way (i.e., patsies in a larger plot)?

We haven't even begun to understand that event--and yet we are out in the world causing untold suffering, and are seeing the destruction of our own democratic society, because of it. The presumption is that Arabs and Muslims--or some compelling element among them--hate us, yet we (as a people, in general) haven't even the slightest conception of why they would.

I don't think there is a single statement or videotape anywhere in which Islamic jihadists express a desire to take over the United States. But what I do pick up, time and again, is LEAVE US ALONE. Stop interfering. Stop supporting dictators. Get your military bases out of our countries. And stop Israel from oppressing the Palestinians.

If this truly was the motivation for 9/11, then we need to see the difference between an attack with motives of anger, hatred and revenge, and an INVASION. When the Visigoths attacked Rome, it was to loot it, and take it over (with possibly some hatred of imperial policies added in.) Not so, with jihadists. If they did it, it was an act of desperation. A message. A statement: This is the ONLY way we can hurt you. This is the ONLY way we make you listen.

And if they DIDN'T do it--or were used as pawns--then we need to know that, too. Without that knowledge, we are indeed a helpless, flailing giant--with we ourselves, the members of that giant body, being used, exploited, looted and killed.

It is in the interests of the Israeli right wing--as it is in the interest of our own fascists--to obscure what really happened on 9/11, and to PREVENT understanding of it, to justify land grabs and the mistreatment of Palestinians, on the one hand, and to loot the U.S. and Iraq, on the other. (Anyone who thinks there is any sincerity in the Bushite Middle East policies only has to review their tax cuts for the rich, and the Halliburton contracts, to be disabused of that notion.)

Whatever happened on 9/11, I think it's clear that the broader objective of western (and of Israeli right wing) policy is to disempower, disenfranchise, dominate, steal from, frighten and oppress Arab/Muslim peoples. And the more those policies are implemented, the more jihadists are created, who dream of a vast protected sphere--a Muslim caliphate--in which they could not be so abused, and could instead prosper according to their own lights.

The jihadists in Chechnya and Kashmir and Afghanistan are most certainly into violent conquest as a means, but I think it's part of the same dream of a protected sphere, and is NOT the same thing as an intention to invade, take over and dominate western countries. Also, western oppression is CREATING a warrior society within Arab/Muslim populations (with western and other arms dealers profiting from it!), and we are in part responsible for the impacts of this on Arab/Muslim women. But if Arab/Muslim women are ever going to be liberated--in the sense that we understand it (as basic human rights)--it has to START with the strengthening of Arab/Muslim community infrastructure and education, which cannot take place in a state of war between western and eastern cultures, and amidst western oppression, humiliation, torture and murder of Arab/Muslim men.

How to stop the violence and prevent a holocaust are the basic issues, wherever western and Arab/Muslim societies are clashing. The answer, from our point of view, is to BACK OFF and re-think the entire situation, and stop making it worse. We may have our bottom lines--among them, Israel's survival and safety. But we are absolutely not, at present, using our strengths and our highest ideals and skills to broker a peace. The U.S.--in collusion with the Israeli right wing--is acting as if peace and justice are NOT POSSIBLE.

That is what we must change, and I think WE have to begin by throwing Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor.' Bushite corporate control of the vote tabulation with SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code is the immediate enabler of the criminality in our government, and, if we don't change that, we can kiss our democracy and--possibly planet Earth itself--goodbye.

[Colorado Blue]

45. Some interesting points...

"Trying to look at this from an Arab/Muslim point of view--which is very difficult for me, culturally, but which we MUST try to do--it surely appears that Israel and the west have been out to destroy the sovereignty, independence and self-determination of Arab/Muslim countries. There are certain actions of the west that can have no other construction (destruction of Iranian democracy, for instance, and the western support of super-rich dictators in Saudi Arabia). The west has been highly successful in decimating Arab/Muslim society, and Arab/Muslim society therefore has a LONG way to go, merely to re-build the infrastructure of a successful society, let alone to realize dreams of a vast Muslim caliphate such as they had in the Middle Ages (when Islamic society far outclassed western Europe in education, culture, science, medicine, AND religious TOLERANCE!).

We need to understand these two broad generalizations about the current Arab/Muslim world: 1) west-induced poverty and lack of community infrastructure (good schools, for instance), and the need to start at the bottom rungs of development; and 2) how the dream of a vast Muslim caliphate derives from these conditions, and provides young Muslims with self-esteem and higher goals, outside of the egoistic self."

OK - I agree absolutely with the need for young Muslims to have greater self-esteem. But, if creating a vast Muslim caliphate destroys other nations and other people's civil rights - is this a good thing? There are MANY peoples in the Middle East and indeed throughout the world where Islam is a dominant religion. What of their rights? Should a Berber, for example, the daughter of a matriarchal society, have to accept Sharia law? What of the women of Iraq for that matter? Or the fact that certain Islamic customs - hijab, for example - are being imported to the West? What of the speeches that include the destruction of Israel as a precondition for creating this Caliphate? The vision drove the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al Husseini, to go to work for Hitler. You might want to think about that a little. If you need information about this, it isn't hard to find. Just look at the Nuremburg Trial transcripts for a start.

And, I have to disagree a little on another point. Israel has not been out to destroy the Arabs. They are trying to survive. The Arabs have actually been trying to destroy THEM.

Has the West been trying to destroy the Arabs? Dominate the region, certainly. So were the Soviets, for that matter. Indeed, this region has been a crossroads, and a source of conflict, for THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

On the other hand, Islam has radicalized in recent decades. Isn't part of the problem we all face one of whether Islam will desire to modernize and reach some accomodation with the West, or whether it will return to a medieval mindset? As liberals, this should certainly interest us - particularly to the feminists and multi-culturalists among us.

Finally, I think your assertion that Israel has made a devil's pact with the US overlooks an important point: Israel is a client state of ours, and really has little choice in the matter. I agree with you completely that the Bush administration totally dropped the ball with regard to the peace process. However, I do think the Israelis are trying to reach out to the Muslim world and progress is being made along those lines. The withdrawal from Gaza and parts of the West Bank is a great beginning, which belies your assertion that the Israelis are behaving as though peace isn't possible. Indeed, it made Israel more vulnerable and was a cause of great distress to the thousands of people who lost their homes, farms and businesses, as well as to the nation of Israel as a whole. Many thought there would be actual civil war in Israel as a result of the pullout, but fortunately the nation survived intact, albeit with some upset citizens who disagree with the action. So the Israeli government, which you have so criticized, took a huge chance by making the withdrawal. It was a serious, and unilateral, concession.

But this beginning needs to be met with some response from the Arabs besides a barrage of missiles, which in fact is exactly what has happened, along with the burning of synagogues and the looting of a lucrative greenhouse business which had been built by the Israelis and given as a gift, by American Jews, to the Palestinians, so they could start building their economy.

***

As far as compassion, etc are concerned - I think you need to talk to some Israelis. Don't underestimate these people, and don't underestimate the difficulty of surviving under the circumstances of a 57 year long war. What do you think the US would do if Mexico had been terrorizing and attacking us over a period of 57 years, and that had been preceded by decades of attacks, and alliances by local leaders with a mortal enemy (Germany), combined with the fact that the dominant religion of the region regards you as a second-classnik at best and at worse, a monkey or a dog?

I think the answer is obvious: we'd have loaded up the B-52s and carpet bombed the region. The Israelis have 1/5 of their population, which is Arab, to consider; they are trying to live WITH the Arabs, not destroy them. Having said that, they do represent a modern, Westernized culture - and that in itself has been a cause of conflict.

The wall upsets you. It upsets me too - but it is saving lives by stopping terrorist attacks. Right now, in order to normalize relations, it is vital that people stop dying. If people stop dying long enough, and start talking again, THEN the wall can come down.

***

As far as 9/11 is concerned, your statement that Israel is trying to cover up what happened is truly upsetting, as are your assertions as follows:

"It is in the interests of the Israeli right wing--as it is in the interest of our own fascists--to obscure what really happened on 9/11, and to PREVENT understanding of it, to justify land grabs and the mistreatment of Palestinians, on the one hand, and to loot the U.S. and Iraq, on the other. (Anyone who thinks there is any sincerity in the Bushite Middle East policies only has to review their tax cuts for the rich, and the Halliburton contracts, to be disabused of that notion.)

Whatever happened on 9/11, I think it's clear that the broader objective of western (and of Israeli right wing) policy is to disempower, disenfranchise, dominate, steal from, frighten and oppress Arab/Muslim peoples. And the more those policies are implemented, the more jihadists are created, who dream of a vast protected sphere--a Muslim caliphate--in which they could not be so abused, and could instead prosper according to their own lights."

***

It is obvious what happened on 9/11, and conspiracy theories are only feeding the assertion that the antiwar movement has become enmeshed with antisemitism, although I can't disagree that money and power are certainly major concerns of the Bush Administration. The Iraq war certainly had an economic component. But that's a far cry from establishing firm links between the concerns of Bush and the concerns of Israel. They are completely different. The Israelis are quite seriously involved in an existential struggle. Their situation is entirely different from that of Halliburton.

Indeed your assertion that the Israelis are deliberately trying to hurt Arabs/Muslims, when in fact they are trying to keep their nation on the planet, is extreme and quite insensitive.

The conflict between the Arabs and the Israelis is long running; there never have been any formal borders drawn up around Israel, Palestinian statehood has been rejected - in 1948 and during the Clinton Administration - by the Palestinians, not by the Israelis; in fact the violence escalated immediately after the Oslo accords were signed. The death toll has soared, suicide bombings and rocket attacks soared, just when it looked like the peace process was underway at last. It really MUST be understood that there are people in the world who are trying to blow Israel off the map.

Therefore, the need for security and defensible borders is REAL, as is the right for ISRAELI cities to grow and prosper just as Arab cities and states have that implicit right.

Another point to consider: the majority of Israelis ARE OF MIDDLE EASTERN DESCENT. Culturally they are very close to the Arabs, in many ways. So the assertion that the Israelis are on some sort of crusade to destroy Araby ignores the existence of the Mizrachi and Sephardic Jews, who have shared a long history with the Arab world.

***

Finally, we need to deal with the realities of the conflicts within Islam, and between Islam and the west, RATIONALLY. That means accepting the realities of 9/11, and accepting that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

I'm posting a link to a Wikipedia article, including a map of the region, in the hopes that it will give you some insights into the Arab/Israeli conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israeli_conflict

Thank you.

[understandinglife]

39. This is a valuable discussion and I thank the mods for allowing ..

.. it to unfold in GD.

Note: I make that observation based on the comments posted prior to this one. I hope any attempts to disrupt this discussion will result in specific comments being deleted rather than the discussion being removed from GD.

Thank you.


Peace.

[barb162]

40. What do you make of the fact that the insurgents in Iraq seem to be

attacking Iraqis where there aren't US soldiers for miles around. Incident after incident after incident... the bus station bombing of a few months ago, the bombings of village squares, teachers and MDs being executed, etc. It seems to me the US is a secondary target the last few months. Also on point 3, how do you explain the long occupation of Japan and Germany after World War 2 and the fact there weren't attacks against the US (" very nature of military occupation breeds continued violence from the occupied.)

( above comments re your point 3)

I don't have time right now to check your other points, but there seems to be similar flaws as mentioned above.

I think both situations are so highly nuanced and complicated it is hard to comment on them in any quick way although I would like to quickly say Oil / energy drives a somewhat decent amount of US policy.


We have to perhaps talk about whether we want a Metternich type foreign policy or something else. We have combinations of different foreign policy philosophies right now ( humanitarian, self-interest, practical, etc) as it has been for some time. And then again sometimes not well-thought out policy (like greed) drives things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. that's easy

"attacking Iraqis where there aren't US soldiers for miles around. Incident after incident after incident... the bus station bombing of a few months ago, the bombings of village squares, teachers and MDs being executed, etc. It seems to me the US is a secondary target the last few months. Also on point 3, how do you explain the long occupation of Japan and Germany after World War 2 and the fact there weren't attacks against the US (" very nature of military occupation breeds continued violence from the occupied"

different groups are trying to provoke a civil war in which they believe they will emerge the victor...

[barb162]

44. This would have happened when Saddam died and if we weren't

there. In other words, what is our influence on Iraq as an occupier force (that comes out of the green zone every so often). We might be somewhat of a stabilizer force?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Would There Have Been A Civil War If Saddam Died

Or would another strong man have taken his place?

[barb162]

56. Hell if I know

(Maybe one of his sons would have taken over easily, maybe there would have been a civil war, maybe the Kurds would have tried splitting off if they saw weakness, maybe some other baathist dictator would have arisen in the wings, etc)

[Colorado Blue]

47. You know - I think that's a good point. Frequently when a

dictator dies all hell breaks loose.

Iraq is a nation with 3 major, and often conflicting, ethnic/religious groups: Sunni, Shi'a, and Kurd. These groups have warred against each other for centuries. I hope that a democratic state can survive given these intrinsic fault lines.

And, it will be interesting in future years to see if the Shi'a modernize, or if the most fundamental of Islamist states emerges. Considering the fact that Iraqi women had been moving forward under the secular Ba'ath party, this will be of significance to the feminists among us.

[barb162]

57. The situation there seems so fluid right now.

Even if the Constitution passes its next test in October, I am wondering how things will proceed, if the situation will calm. The little birdie is saying all the women should get outta town.

[cantstandbush]

52. And you are assuming that it is the "insurgents" doing all this killing

of Iraqis. I guess those two Brits caught with their missiles down so to speak was just an anomaly? You just have to ask, "who benefits?" when many of these jobs are pulled off. I do believe that in many cases the insurgents are not killing Iraqis just as I believe they did not bomb the UN facility there. We (the coalition forces) are not beyond black bag operations. And since we do not value very little, if at all, the lives of non-whites, it is not a big deal for our side to kill these people. Just look at what took place at Abu Ghraib. I'd say we are capable of anything.

[barb162]

58. I think the British men story from last week was an anomoly

but I didn't follow that story carefully at all (hurricane coverage).

I think the suicide bombers are probably mostly foreign-based fundamentalists, since average political types don't go around offing themselves. The non suicide bombers(um, regular insurgents) I think are a combo of foreign and home grown political opportunists, fundies, jihadists, maybe a few anarchists for good measure, some gangs, etc. I also think none of the inurgents are Kurds.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

49. Is it true that America gives Isreal $10,000,000 dollars a day to

defend itself? I saw a web site called

IfAmericaKnew.org, that was very Impressive-

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Most Americans Know America Gives Egypt And Isreal $4 Billion A Year

It was the price to get both nations to accept the Camp David Peace Treaty...

[darkworkz]

53. I don't think most Americans do know this...

But you know what? They will real soon.

Why?

Because we're broke, and we've got to start cutting back on spending. Something tells me foreign-aid will get the chop, big time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Our Entire Foreign Aid Budget Is About 20 Billion Dollars

or less than 1% of of the budget or less than a fraction of a percent of our GDP...

As a percentage of GDP it's among the lowest of the industrialized democracies...

[darkworkz]

55. true.

But the country is broke. At least that's what the public will perceive.

And the foreign aid budget will get chopped.

Here's a sample of the conversation you'll hear as the budget issue grows in the mind of the "masses"..."20 BILLION? Do you know how many americans we can feed, house, take care of, etc..."

I'm sure we'll keep our seat at the UN. But the rest...? *shrug*

[Lithos]

79. Not really

Most of it comes back as pork to US companies in some form or fashion.

L-

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. You Nailed It

We give Israel and Egypt approximately eight billion dollars of which approximately six billion dollars is spent on weapons which they buy from us....

It ain't a bad deal because it buys peace between the two nations...


I'm a pragmatist ..If we could "buy peace" in Iraq and Israel-Palestine I'd advocate buying it tomorrow...

[WHAT]

51. One thing I wonder about...

is the argument that the most vital concern the United States has with middle east control is access to oil. It is apparent that newsmercials are fulfilling some kind of policy agenda (and I honestly don't know if it is from bush or not) in editing and presenting information...be it to promote a medical treatment, an ideology, or various entertainment consumptions. The Iraq War was definitely promoted full flag ahead.

So, I wonder, if the policy is crisis driven because of peak oil, why weren't alternative energy research and development not promoted?. That one question leads me to think that maybe peak oil is a bogus argument and the underling driving force is opening and controlling markets. I don't think it has to do with religion or nationality, ethnicity or culture...the PNAC isn't jewish even though some members are. I think they see all these factors as props for market expansion.

When I think of things in these terms I think maybe the best defense is to restructure banking so that it reflects the intentions of members...not an ice cream razz ma tazz cash cow that war is to a few investors. After all, cronyism isn't good for democracy...it benefits a few people to the detriment of everyone else and society as a whole. If banking were global and people had independent and equal ability to choose which accounts to pool their money they could ignore the bs companies that weren't responsible. The struggle seems to be over control of money flow and that is possible because banks are allowed that position. I guess I'd advocate a restructuring of all banking infrastructure to avoid concentration and control of money flow (it seems it's a lot like the drug flow).

I guess I got to rambling but I do have a lot of questions about what is going on and I just want a simple, coherent explanation. Anymore, I think a lot of books are like a lot of talk show hosts where a few people just sit around and talk to each other, congratulate each other, bounce things off of each other...ultimately, it's a limited dialog.

What is going on?

[barb162]

60. correlating to your numbering

1. Support for Israel didn't really set the stage for the rise of militant Islam. I would look more towards the Afghanistan/USSR war, views of what Saudi Arabia should be like, what world Islam should look like to the biggest militant fundies, poverty in the Mideast,lack of non-religious education in the Mideast, how the various Mideast peoples think the industrialized world views and treats them, political systems (by and large mullahs or dictators)and a whole host of other items and events that would take all day to write. As the rest of the world industrializes and gets more people in the middle class, even such historically poor countries as China and India, look at reasons why the Mideast tends to stagnate economically. Except for oil wealth, not all that much is going on there economically.

2. Bases in Iraq are for oil, to protect American interests in the M.E., etc. PNAC goals are written by people = to Bush in political savvy. If the bases help Israel's protection, that is an added benefit, but not the prime reason Iraq was invaded. Reasons for invading Iraq: WMD (protect the US), oil (protect the US), Bush One's daddy didn't finish up the Gulf War right , Bush had a hard-on for Saddam, etc. I suspect these bases are not going to be as big as originally planned.

3. Check my posts elsewhere. I think way more deaths of Iraqis are being caused by insurgents than the coalition. I think about 30,000 deaths have been caused so far versus the usually-stated 100,000. I don't agree that occupation necessarily causes violence re Japan, Germany, etc. which went on to become economic powerhouses and allies of the US. I think most of the violence in Iraq is being caused by insurgents in regard to who controls the country, whether to have a theocracy, Islamic republic, etc. It's an enormously complex situation.

4. It's not a multiplying effect. More like a straight addition effect.
--------
Connections: mostly Moslems, same general area of the world, both had British involvement at one time, long-time corrupt government (Hussein, Arafat), large numbers of poor people, etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. I must say...

...while I disagree with some of the points, an actual good conversation was happening, it is too bad it was moved from GD. It is RARE that anything like this could have 62 (63, with my) comments and have NO deleted posts! Perhaps, people will still continue good debate.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

68. A lot of these statistics

are of the same nature as showing the Axis powers where the "good guys" in WWII by stating "there were 0 American cities* bombed by the Axis Powers".

For instance (this is just off the top of my head - I haven't the time to go over your post point-by-point:

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 686 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

For the first, it's not the lack of trying. And for the second, some (though not all) of those Palestinian children (which, remember, includes everyone under 18) were involved in the violence, or were used as a "screen" by "militants"

Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
1,064 Israelis and 3,700 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000
7,441 Israelis and 29,181 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

Again, not a particular useful statistic in itself - it's like saying the US was an aggressor in WWII because more Japanese died. and again, it's not for a lack of trying - 80-90% of terrorist attacks are stopped by the Israeli security services "en route", and not all the others are successful in causing casualties.

Daily U.S. Assistance to Israel and the Palestinians
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

The "aid to Israel" figure is overevalueated by at least a factor of 2, and the aid to the Palestinians is larger than that - not to mention that aid to Palestinians NGOs was limited after they refused to pledge that those funds would not be used for terrorism, and after a history of.."diversion"..of funds given to the Palestinians.

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

And I suppose you'll still claim the UN is treating the conflit in a fair and evenhanded fashion?

See also here

Political Prisoners and Detainees
No Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 8,279 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Israelis taken by Palestinians tend not to live long.

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.

When those areas were conquered by Arab forces, around a score of Jewish communities were leveled

Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%.

Maybe they shouldn't have started a war with their employers, then?

*Pearl Harbor doesn't count, being a naval base.

[idontwantaname]

69. theres also a lot of good info too...

i know alison personally and she works hard to report accurate #s and evaluate medias role in reporting balanced news.

of course theres some people out there who dont like the #s being reported which is fine...

[PuraVidaDreamin]

70. I met Alison too. Passionate and Fair

I'm not sure why so many in the US won't believe
these numbers either when they have seen what
the media has done to stories they have hidden,
or under reported here too. It really is time to wake up

And it is time for Isreal to take care of itself financially.

[barb162]

71. Maybe this individual should do a listing of unprovoked attacks

by each side. I am thinking of this past week when rockets were shot into Israel for starters. As to the UN resolutions, maybe Israel should go to the UN for all unprovoked attacks by Palestinians and neighbor countries, such as Egypt. I don't know and am not about to look it up if a country can go to the UN for resolutions against Palestinians, versus a country. Do an enumeration of suicide bombers coming from each group, etc.

This is a very biased list.

[idontwantaname]

72. since you volunteered...

we wait patiently while you compile that list.

[barb162]

73. who volunteered?

NOT!

[idontwantaname]

76. in all honesty...

what you posted sounded like a good idea.

why wouldnt you want to research a list of unprovoked attacks on both sides? i know many people here on DU would appreciate it.

i dont know that i have seen a resource list like this yet.

[barb162]

82. To do a really good job, one would want to search the police and

military records, multiple news sources, etc., for any given incident because of skewed reporting, propaganda, etc. One would also probably want to do at least three credible "newspapers" for reliability. It would take a really long time to do even a short test period, such as a month. While some things are very blatant, others, such as a one-on-one mugging/beating(opportunistic terror attack?) at 1:00AM become more vague. Methodology (and sticking to it) is everything. The data one would most want to see, such as police, military, hospital, etc., records for any given incident, would be the data most unlikely to be be released for examination.

[barb162]

74. what I am also saying

as to UN resolutions... I don't know if the North Vietnamese went after the USA for bombing them, if Northern Ireland went after England, if India goes after Pakistan re Kashmir, if there's a UN resolution against that moron heading Zimbabwe, and on and on and on.
Plus, look at how easily Bush got the UN to go along with him on his BS about WMD in Iraq. That was a slam dunk with phony info. lWhen people say look at the UN resolutions about country x, y or z, I say, yeah, uh-huh,look at Bush and WMD/Iraq. The UN does a lot of good, but operates very strangely on these resolutions.

[idontwantaname]

75. the UN only works as well as its members wish it...

they did send weapons inspectors into iraq... both times.

and bush told them to get out or be bombed out... both times.

[Lithos]

78. I'm leaving this open for now

Though it is in violation of I/P guidelines concerning acceptable thread creation guidelines. However, I am going to make a moderator exception and allow this open-discussion thread to remain open for now, provided it does not degenerate into pure inflammatory commentary and otherwise stays within I/P guidelines for acceptable material and dialogue.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator

[Coastie for Truth]

80. An interesting DU append about the American Petroleum Institute

a very vert powerful lobby. See

Interesting quote from the append:

"Recently, a lobbyist from the American Petroleum Institute (the lobbying arm of big oil) was overheard at a bar saying, "we're the richest trade association in town." That comment sums up their response to record gas prices before and following Hurricane Katrina. As gas prices shoot up, they're counting their money and buying drinks for their friends.

Not coincidentally, while families pay those record prices, oil companies' profits have shot up. According to an Oil Daily report before Katrina hit, the ten major oil companies are on pace to post an astounding $100 billion plus in profits in 2005. I'm all for American businesses doing well, but we must make sure these record profits aren't reaped at the expense of America's families."

Senator Harry Reid's web site about the American Petroleum Institute and soaring gas prices, and API's lobbying -- http://www.giveemhellharry.com/page/petition/gas>

Consider the sheer arrogance and power of the American Petroleum Institute illegitimati

[barb162]

83. Those oil patch guys

are big swinging d---s. (Ducks of course)

Worked with them a while back. This story tells me nothing has changed personality- wise.