Israelis blow up apartment block after gun battle

[The Stranger]

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=65126460&p=65yz7x4x

Israeli troops killed a Palestinian militant and arrested three during a West Bank gun battle today before blowing up the seven storey apartment building where the men had been hiding.

Blowing up apartment buildings is what the Chechnyan terrorists were doing. Have to call this what it is -- state-sponsored Terrorism.

[jos]

1. Sharon's modus operandi

Back in 1953, Sharon directed that a building be blown up where some 50 women and children were hiding. All were killed. The man has always reveled in blood and destruction.

[The Magistrate]

2. Clearly, Sir

People were already out of this building when it was demolished: the report would be of a much different character otherwise.

[dfong63]

3. so - if someone blew up YOUR home,

... but your family was out - are you saying that wouldn't be terrorism?

[StandWatie]

5. no..

it's barbarism and possibly a war crime, Sharon's former adventures with 101 are clear out and out "terrorism" I suppose if you are into a largely meaningless word.

[The Magistrate]

8. Indeed, Mr. Watie

The destruction of property is one thing, the taking of life another. There is no need to gild lillies in such matters.

[The Stranger]

10. "Clearly . . . people were already out of this building . . . "?

Thanks for making statements with absolutely no support from the facts and, worse, making it obvious by prefacing it with "clearly."

More goodies from the Magistrate.

[GabysPoppy]

11. Probably because he read the article in question

"The military said the wanted men threw grenades. Israeli soldiers blew up the badly damaged building, which had been evacuated, bringing down the tall structure that housed 28 apartments."

[yuvalmadar]

12. Indeed, funny thing he haven't...

And rather chose to point out other lines...

[The Stranger]

16. If you believe military spokesmen.

"Clearly," they must be telling the truth.

[The Magistrate]

14. You Do Not Get Out Much, Do You, Mr. Stranger?

Do you imagine if an occupied building had been demolished, the dozens of casualties certain to result from the collapse of a seven-storey structure would not have been the focus of the article?

[The Stranger]

15. Have you lapsed from your faux-legalese?

They didn't seem to worry about evacuations in Jenin, assuming the military spokesman here speaks the truth.

How many were killed from the collapsing structures? I know you don't want to call it a "massacre," but there were quite a few, you'll admit.

Nor when Rachel Corrie intervened. Nor when they missle the bystanders during assassination attempts. Nor when they dropped 2,000 pound bombs on apartment complexes in the past. Nor when they bomb the Lebanese up north.

Do you want me to go on?

[The Magistrate]

17. Jenin Again, Dear?

Arab Palestinian casualties at Jenin were a little more than fifty, of whom roughly half were killed gun in hand. There were some persons killed in collapsing structures; very little warning was given. There are certainly occassions when persons are killed through being nearby when some militant or other is attacked, and when that occurs, it is generally a leading focus of news accounts, and a great outcry is raised. Clearly, that did not occur in this case.

[madrchsod]

6. oh yes -

wasn`t there a hotel named "king david" that was blown up? wasn`t there a problem in eygpt that changed the course of middle east politics that "may" have been caused by our friends?

[StandWatie]

7. are you thinking of the Lavon affair?

Without a doubt those bombings were done by Israeli agents, political enemies of Ben Gurion outed him on it. Big scandal.

[The Magistrate]

9. The King David Hotel, Mr. Sod

Was the headquarters of England's military administration in Mandatory Palestine. If the various irregular bodies of Arab Palestine would direct their attacks similarly, my view of them would be somewhat other than it is.

The "Lavon Affair" Mr. Watie references was certainly the work of Israeli agents; it was also a rather minimalist campaign. The material effectiveness of its detonations may be judged by the fact it was discovered when a device intended for planting in a theater instead went off in the operative's pocket, which detonation left him in reasonable health for the interrogators. This all occured in the period immediately after Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal, and it was the hope of the Israeli secret services that an appearance of instability would entice the former proprietors back into Egypt. It seems worth pointing out that actions so distant in time may have little direct relevance to judgements of present day events.

[madrchsod]

4. remember

the idf is protecting the usa from an invasion from the palestinian army...at least that`s i`ve been told.

[Darranar]

13. This action...

ia another example of unfair collective punishment.

[The Magistrate]

18. That It Certainly Is, Mr. Darranar

[userdave2061]

19. blowing up the apartment building where the men had been hiding

As well they should. Any structure used to aid in the terror asgainst Israel would be rightly removed to prevent any future terror attacks.

I see no problem here.

[Darranar]

21. Not only terrorists were living in there!

Terrorists were located in there, that does not mean that the structure was used to help terrorists. This is an example of unfair and unjust collective punishment.

[userdave2061]

24. Perhaps the tennants could have helped capture/evict the terrorists?

Why is it these hamas members that target and murder innocent people are allowed to mingle with and live among otherwise innocent citizens?

Part of being a good member of society is helping to rid the neighborhood of those that would kill or maim innocent people.

[Darranar]

27. See The Magistrate's post #26...

ordinarily I'd respond myself, but he said it better than I could.

[jos]

23. By blowing up the building

I'm sure they created a bunch of future "terrorists" among the residents who were rendered homeless by the destruction.

[userdave2061]

25. I doubt it

I give the locals more credit than that. If a terrorist, rapist or murderer were living in your building would you not help to get them arrested or removed?

If someone becomes a terrorist because another terrorist was killed then their values should be in question.

[The Magistrate]

26. You Expect A Lot Of People, Sir

Most do not take bold action against armed men with many friends, nor can they be expected to. How you suppose every resident of the building was aware of the activities of this one fellow, too, is beyond me. They do not advertise, you know; rather the opposite.

[jos]

29. Obviously, you've never lived under occupation

And by defending this collective punishment, YOUR values are certainly in question.

[userdave2061]

32. I fail to see how this can be considered collective punishment

It would appear to be a defensive action to prevent the building from being another staging area or terrorist nest in the future.

My values are not in question by those who wish to see an end to the hamas terror activities.

[The Magistrate]

33. Then Look A Little Closer, Dear

Destruction of domicile and contents on a moment's notice can be readily read as punishment by those who witness or suffer it; the latter are certainly unlikely to read it as a defensive measure of some sort.

This sort of thing does nothing to enhance the security of Israel, nor does defending it as something which does so bring any benefit to Israel.

[drdon326]

34. No "moments notice", Sir...

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/337214.html

IDF blows up Nablus apartment building
The building was blown up more than six hours
after the gunbattle had ended because the
military believed some militants might have
remained hiding on top floors, said Maj. Sharon
Feingold, an army spokeswoman.

....................................................

[The Magistrate]

35. How Long, My Dear Doctor, Did People Have To Clear Their Homes?

Were they allowed back to remove furniture, and other possessions? It seems they were cleared out by the gunfight, and had no chance to retrieve anything: the Army, concerned there might be gunmen still in the building, would hardly have allowed that. If the Army had sent men in to clear the suspected areas of the building, it would have been better politically, even if this resulted in casualties. As things stand now, the minimum that ought to be done is to pay these people for the lost value of their posessions and homes. That seems only right to me.

[drdon326]

36. I tend to agree with restitution.....

however, we dont know ALL the facts and as you pointed
out earlier with regard to Jenin, initial reports do
not always represent the actual facts.

I suspect the truth will eventually come out.

[Gimel]

47. Collective punishment

This is something we all must come to terms with in the modern world. Collective punishment is with us every day. When accidents increase, insurance rates rise. Isn't that collective punishment? All limitations to freedom can be seen as collective punishment, but can be accepted as seen that it is for the greater good. Therefore, userdave has made an important point, IMO.

[jos]

48. That's the most assinine analogy I've ever heard

:dunce:

[SOS]

41. Huh?

"If a terrorist, rapist or murderer were living in your building would you not help to get them arrested or removed?"
Yes, but why dynamite the whole building? Imagine this in an American city. A high-rise building in Manhattan has a murderer hiding inside.
The police shoot him in the elevator shaft. Then the NYPD clears the high-rise of residents and dynamites the whole thing. How would that go over?

[Tinoire]

20. More details

Eight of the 15 apartments in the building demolished Friday had been occupied, housing about 50 people. Residents included shopkeepers, accountants and middle-class professionals. Each apartment had cost $50,000, with a monthly mortgage payment of $300 _ high sums in the impoverished Palestinian economy.

Bakr's mother, Mona, was at a nearby elementary school, still dressed in the black bathrobe she wore when soldiers asked her to leave her apartment at the start of the raid. "I have only this," she said, raising her identity card. "I thought we were only being asked to leave for a few minutes."

<snip>

Soldiers surrounded the building, ordered the residents out and took them to a school, said Jamal Kordi, 38, a housepainter and one of the residents. Men were handcuffed and questioned about strangers in the building.

<snip>

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/6702844.htm

You can see a pictures of the pulverized apartment complex here:

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2003-09/05/images/pic01b. jpg

http://central.standardradio.com/feeds/FTPRoot/news1/xml/world/w090565A. jpg

(remove the space before .jpg)

[userdave2061]

22. Losing an apartment to terrorists using it as a frortress isn't as bad as

"An Israeli soldier was killed and four others were wounded, one critically, in the gun battle.

Israel has intensified its hunt for militants since a last month’s Hamas suicide bombing on a Jerusalem bus.

A 27-year-old Israeli man wounded in that attack died today, bringing the total killed to 22 people.

Israel has said it will not rest until Palestinian security forces start dismantling Hamas, Islamic Jihad and armed groups with ties to Arafat’s Fatah movement."

I'd like to see a story about how the Israeli soldiers family is coping with him being murdered by yet another Hamas terrorist. So far 22 innocent people were killed in one terror bus bombing and if taking out an apartment building helps bring these terrorists to justice and prevents them from using it to terrorize agaig then Israel is doing the correct thing.

The only way to deal with the terrorists is to either lock them up or remove their ability to kill innocents.

[Darranar]

28. What did demolishing the apartment building accomplish...

for the security of Israel?

[Aidoneus]

30. nothing really

except it showed the people who lived inside who's boss, how life really is, how their loss means nothing to some, and who it is that can get away with atrocious acts while an adoring fanbase defends their every move at the drop of a hat.

The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, while updated a fair bit slowly, keeps tabs on things like this.

in response to the original post; I don't know of any Chechens that blow up apartments, though at one point I could point to several pictures of hundreds of Chechen apartments destroyed by pilots & artillerymen too far away (or disinterested) in seeing the people they kill en masse.

[Darranar]

31. My point exactly. n/t

[Karmadillo]

38. It might encourage the emigration of additional Palestinians from Greater

Israel. It seems the Israeli extremists are attempting to make daily life miserable for the inhabitants of the Occupied Territories. The goal of such a brutal policy would appear to be to encourage as many Palestinians as possible to go elsewhere.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1807.shtml

Road Map diplomacy conceals 'politicide' of the Palestinian people
Steve Niva, The Electronic Intifada, 11 August 2003

<edit>

Kimmerling, a self-described "Israeli patriot" deeply concerned about Israel's future, coined the term politicide to describe the strategic goal of the package of policies Israel has implemented against Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip during the past few years, especially since Ariel Sharon's ascension as Israel's Prime Minister in February 2001. He believes that politicide is a danger not only to the existence of the Palestinian people but also to the state of Israel.

By politicide he means a multi-leveled process of Israeli political, economic and military policies "that has, as its ultimate goal, the dissolution of the Palestinian people's existence as a legitimate social, political and economic entity." It does so through the planned destruction of both the Palestinian public and private spheres of life in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Its main policy components include the deliberate destruction of Palestinian national and civic institutions; the relentless siege of Palestinian cities and villages by barricades, checkpoints, and curfews; the physical destruction of civilian and economic infrastructure; mass arrests and assassinations of political leaders and activists; land confiscation; home demolitions; starvation and political isolation. This process may also but not necessarily entail their partial or complete ethnic cleansing from the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

All of these policies are designed to lower Palestinian expectations, crush their capability for resistance, isolate and impoverish them and eventually cause their "voluntary" mass emigration from the land. It seeks to turn the Palestinians who remain into foreigners in their own land

more...

[dudeness]

37. I despair at the atrocities taking place from both sides..

the cycle of violence continues to spiral and yet I have not heard a plausible solution from any our so called world leaders..

[rini]

39. try this for the real story JPost

Brigadier General Gadi Eizencot, in a briefing with reporters, said that IDF forces, acting on intelligence information received regarding his whereabouts, were operating in the Raffidyia neighborhood in Nablus to arrest a Hamas fugitive.

The troops reached a seven-story building and called on residents to go outside before they went in to search the building for the fugitive.

As in such cases tracker dogs were sent in first to scour the area before the special forces went in.

Soldiers making their way through the building to search for the fugitives saw that the lift between the 2nd and 3rd floors was stuck. As they approached the third floor, the Hamas fugitive, who was standing on the top of lift, opened fire at the soldiers from close range. Kumemi was killed and four others injured in the burst of fire.

Soldiers returned fire at the terrorist, killing him.

Three Palestinians were arrested after the gunbattle, the army said. Soldiers laid explosive charges and blew up the building.

The fugitive that the forces had wanted to arrest is believed to be Muhammad Hambali, the senior Hamas commander in the West Bank. Hambali was responsible for numerous attacks and the deaths of at least 20 Israelis and was in the midst of planning a suicide bombing attack to be carried out in the near future.


We join with their family, friends and fellow soldiers in mourning...

Posted by aaron on Friday, 5 September

[Darranar]

40. Why did they demolish the apartment building?

They could have let the inhabitants back in.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

43. They did, did they?

How do you know? Do you think they knew that the person in the building was a terrorist? Even if they did, what do you expect them to do?

[jos]

44. "It's not liek we're talking human beings here"

You must have the "final solution" to the Palestinian problem in mind.

[SOS]

45. "It's not we're talking human beings here"

From Tinoire's post #20:

"Eight of the 15 apartments in the building demolished Friday had been occupied, housing about 50 people. Residents included shopkeepers, accountants and middle-class professionals."

So in your opinion, a middle-class accountant, never accused of any crime is unworthy to even be considered human?

[Forkboy]

51. I must say again

that the level of bigotry allowed on this forum is becoming disturbing to say the least.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. I second that...

n/t

[TheYellowDog]

46. This makes me feel good inside

n/t.

[number6]

49. I Agree

"Blowing up apartment buildings is what the Chechnyan terrorists were doing. Have to call this what it is -- state-sponsored Terrorism."

destroying people's lives and livelyhood is terrorizing them.

[rini]

50. I am sorry

I wasn't clear. I meant the murder of Israeli women and children don't count. Just the blowing up of a terrorist nest of vibers equals hand wringing.

[Equinox]

52. I feel sorry for you rini,

truly sorry.

Had this happened to Israelis, I'm sure your opinion would change dramatically.

But it didn't happen to "humans" so your ok with it.

Jeez...I have to agree with Forkboy on allowing such bigoted posts.

[rini]

53. can I make it clearer

the "non" people I was referring to are the Israelis. Their lives, according to my understanding of some posts, come second to buildings.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Then you need to learn to comprehend what you possibly read...

Yr the ONLY person here who has ever claimed they are 'non-people'. Just because you may take this sort of attitude towards Palestinian civilians, please don't try to project yr own mindset onto others and pretend they feel any such way about Israeli civilians....


btw, just on yr 'understanding' of posts, Darranar is still waiting in a thread in FA for you to point out who all these Muslim posters are that I was supposed to have been calling anti-Muslim. I won't hold my breath waiting, eh?

Violet...

[userdave2061]

56. The building means nothing compared to the innocent Israeli lives lost

to terrorism. If anythin here needs attention it's the targeting and murder of innocent Israeli women and children by hamas terrorists.

I'm thankful that Israel was able to eliminate yet anoter hamas terrorist regardless if a bloodless building was harmed. The building can be rebuilt but the innocent lives snuffed out by hamas terrorists are gone forever.

[Darranar]

57. Yah yah yah yah...

more rhetoric. How does demolishing this building save Israeli lives? All it does is add to the suffering.

[userdave2061]

58. saving Israeli lives

If this building was used to kill citizens of Israel1 then it won't be used again. Maybe it will help the locals to lend a hand to remove the hamas trash from their streets and buildings.

[Darranar]

59. It was?

Uh, how was it used to kill Israelis?

[userdave2061]

60. Read the report

"The military said the wanted men threw grenades. Israeli soldiers blew up the badly damaged building, which had been evacuated, bringing down the tall structure that housed 28 apartments."
"An Israeli soldier was killed and four others were wounded, one critically, in the gun battle."

Wanted hamas terrorists killed the "cop" trying to bring them to justice. Bad move on the part of the hamas terrorist.

[Darranar]

62. And?

I still don't get how that justifies blowing up the building.

[bemildred]

61. We need to get some terrorists to hide behind Sharon,

and then throw some grenades. Then we could blow up Sharon.
After that, on to Arafat.

[Darranar]

63. Hmm...

your statement here brought an interesting thought to mine. Since Bush protects the Saudi ruling class (who harbor terrorists) isn't he therefore harboring terrorists? According to his own vow, I guess its time for "regime change" in Washington with the use of military force.

[bemildred]

64. Actual logic, consistently applied

can take you all kinds of places, somewhat depending on
your assumptions and persistence. I am lazy. I just want
to get some terrorists to hide behind Bush and throw a few
grenades so we can demolish him. This is a methodology that
has a lot of potential, I think.