Thousands Protest After Attack On Christian Shrine In Israel

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Thousands of protesters have marched through the streets of Nazareth in the wake of an attack on a major Christian shrine.

The protesters accuse the Israeli government of failing to halt Friday's attack on the church and demand better protection for holy sites. An Israeli couple is blamed for setting off the series of small explosions in the town known as Jesus' home. There was little damage, but dozens were hurt in the ensuing riot.

Emotions raised by the attack on the Basilica of the Annunciation reflect the fragile status of Israel's Arab minority, which has long claimed it suffers discrimination at the hands of the Jewish majority.

Many participants are rejecting the government's claim that Friday's violence was driven by personal distress instead of politics."

http://www.thenewmexicochannel.com/news/7684416/detail.html

[izzybeans]

1. And it wasn't terrorism

:sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

4. It was mental illness!

The couple responsible for this have a long history of mental illness.

[izzybeans]

5. bombers are a danger to self and others so I suppose it fits the

DSM criteria ;)

[cali]

6. Can we at least get the facts straight?

There were no bombs set off. They used firecrackers. No one was hurt when they were set off. The church was undamaged. People were hurt in the ensuing panic. There was violence afterwards.
Those, as best we know them, are the facts. Good place to start.

[izzybeans]

7. then a link is a good place to start.

firecrackers were not the only "small explosives"

but either way...I find extremism of any stripe reprehensible, even among those with a history of psychiatric treatment (which is roughly 50% of the U.S. population since the last epidemiological study was conducted in this country, I don't think the ICPSR collects statistics on Israel so I have no idea what help seeking rates are like in that country).

Going into a church armed with firecrackers and small explosives is...oh what do you call it...a love tap apparently.

[cali]

8. Google it. Sorry I've got slow dial up.

The information I provided is widely available in every story written.

[izzybeans]

10. I know and so is the "other small explosives" part.

either way why the semantics. Opposition sites say they were bombs. I don't think they were bombs.

Yuck I just realize what forum I fell into. this explains it.

[Colorado Blue]

15. Here.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/689982.html

The Tiberias Magistrate's Court issued Saturday evening a 15-day remand extension for the three family members suspected of detonating fireworks in the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth the night before. One of the suspects, Violet Habibi, collapsed on the way out of the courthouse. An ambulance arrived at the scene to give her medical treatment.

Police rescued the Habibi family members from the church after they detonated fireworks during a prayer service. Ensuing riots lightly injured 13 police officers and 13 civilians. Four cars were set on fire, including two police vehicles.

Haim Habibi, husband of Violet and father of Odelia, the third suspect, said during the court hearing, "I have nothing against Christians or Muslims," adding that he would like to thank the security forces who protected him from rioters during the incident. "I didn't do anything... I didn't hurt anyone. All I want is my three children that were cruelly taken from me by the state."

Violet said during the hearing, "We had no choice, we wanted our baby back. We're not against anyone, we've never committed a crime or an injustice. We are in serious distress and I hope we will be forgiven."

snip

[izzybeans]

18. Thank you.

[Colorado Blue]

12. WHAT BOMBS?

They had some firecrackers.

[Colorado Blue]

11. This couple and his family have a history of mental illness.

They have lost three of their kids because they can't care for them.

Incidentally the couple is one Jewish man, one Christian woman, their Christian daughter was with them.

Here is an article about it.

Please read it.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/689982.html

[madrchsod]

2. tribalism mixed with religious intolerance is a dangerous mixture

the israeli government has done everything in their power to marginalize the christian arabs and not one word from the fundy christians here in the states.

[xchrom]

3. christian arabs don't tow the fundy line

so they don't care about them.

[Colorado Blue]

13. Excuse me? The real problems confronting Israeli Christians

are from Muslims.

[Wordie]

16. So say you, CB. The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem disagrees with you.

There were quite a number of threads on this around Christmastime:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=108718
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=108883
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=108491

I really don't think that the pro-Israel posters at DU know more about what Palestinian Christians think than the Palestinian Christians themselves!

[Colorado Blue]

17. Right. The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem - didn't they fire

an Orthodox Christian for selling land to Jews?

WORDIE - study some history PLEASE.

Do you know ANYTHING about Christianity vs. Judaism? There is context here, 2,000 years of history, the problems of "dhimmitude" and the very real bigotry of the Eastern church, also coloring these perceptions.

[Wordie]

19. You miss the point. WHO knows better what the Palestinian Christians

think? Do you really claim special knowledge for yourself, CB?

To label as bigotry against Jews the statments of the Latin Patriarch that the Wall is harming Christians as well as Muslims, and that there are peaceful relations between Palestinian Christians and Muslims (these statements are both contained in the threads I posted earlier), is just unbelievable!

I'm left nearly speechless...

[Colorado Blue]

40. I agree, the wall isn't discriminating, it's not good for anybody.

But to ignore stories about the situation of the Christians in the Territories is wrong also.

For example: http://www.persecution.net/country/palestine.htm

"For years, Christians in Palestine have been frequently caught in the middle of the conflict between Israel and the Islamic elements controlling the Palestinian authority. Rejected by Israel because they are Palestinian, they also face difficulties from the militant Islamic groups active in Palestine. Consequently, many Christians have been leaving Palestine for other areas of the world. According to one report, the number of Christians has dropped from fifteen percent to two percent in the past twenty years.
With the transition of control from Israel to the Palestinian government, there is increasing uncertainty about the role of militant Islamic groups in Palestine.

There have been mixed reports on whether there is systematic persecution of Christians by the Palestinian authorities. However, there are definite cases of harassment and intimidation by militant Islamic groups and some local officials. Along with that, there is serious social pressure against converting to Christianity.


Prayer Requests
Pray for protection for Christians in Palestine during this unheaval.
Pray that the Palestinian Authority will fully respect the rights of all people in Palestine."

Here is more information:

http://persecution.net.master.com/texis/master/search/mysite.html?q=palestine

So stop being speechless, just open your mind a little and do some reading.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem is Catholic...

So why exactly would they have been in the position in the first place to fire an Orthodox Christian?

I think you've got the wrong Patriarch in yr sights, CB....

Violet...

[Englander]

24. No, it wasn't.

That was the Greek Orthodox Patriarch, he didn't just "sell land to Jews";

'Orthodox shun Patriarch Irineos
Tuesday, 24 May, 2005

>snip

Patriarch Irineos stands accused of authorising the sale of some of the most sensitive property in Jerusalem - three buildings in the main square near the Jaffa Gate, that have for generations been lived in by Palestinians.

Their leases have been bought by anonymous Jewish investors.

Palestinians have always thought that in any settlement involving the division of Jerusalem, this land would be theirs.

The sale of some land to Jewish investors in the past has been followed by settlement activity aimed, some believe, at disrupting the transfer of land to Palestinians in any final settlement.

Israel occupied East Jerusalem in 1967 and annexed it in 1981, but its claim to the area is not recognised internationally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4574759.stm

[Englander]

25. Wiki, helpfully, makes it clear which Patriarch is which;

'The term Patriarch of Jerusalem can refer to the holders of one of three offices:

* The Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, who is one of nine highest-ranking Eastern Orthodox bishops, called patriarchs
* The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, who is the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Jerusalem.
* The Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem, who in addition to representing the interests of his own church, is in communion with the other churches of the Oriental Orthodox communion.

All three trace their successions back to James the Just, brother of Jesus, who was head of the first Christian Church in Jerusalem.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Jerusalem

[Colorado Blue]

28. I am aware of this m'dear. I am speaking of a certain mindset

which makes selling land to Jews a fireable offense in our own capitol.

What do you think about THAT?

[Englander]

31. You are, now, because I've told you.

Clearly, the level of awareness of which Patriarch was which, was significantly
lower, previously.

As for the rest of yer post, is there some reason why you've completely missed the
point, & have decided to mention something unrelated to the sale of the hotel in
Jerusalem? Because, US capital = not Jerusalem.

[Colorado Blue]

37. Dude. My father was Catholic. I almost married a Greek

Orthodox man. Trust me, I know from Christianity.

I fail to comprehend your comment about Jerusalem not being the US capitol. Of course it isn't. It is the capitol of Israel.

Am Israel Chai.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Yeah. Seen one Patriarch, seen them all...

What's the big difference between a Latin Patriarch and a Greek Orthodox one, anyway? They're both called Patriarchs. They're both Christians. They're both probably old men...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

20. That comment is disgusting and bigoted...

I'm hoping no-one's going to disagree on that?

Violet...

[Englander]

26. It was.

I'd add intolerant to that list of disgusting, & bigoted.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

14. Maybe that is because your statement is untrue.

Please do a little research on this subject.

Example:

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/CWN/032505mughar.asp

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=969&x_context=2

http://www.zoa.org/pressrel2001/20010301b.htm

Also, in case you didn't notice, this couple was mixed Jewish/Christian, their daughter, also involved in the attack, is Christian.

WHAT tribalism?

[Englander]

23. wtf?!?! The Xtian Broadcast Network, Camera, & Zoa?

I see you still haven't got the grasp of that "credible source" concept.
That explains a lot, it explains all the faith-based info.

[Colorado Blue]

29. Gimme a break. I'll go with 2,000 years of history. Since

when have Jews persecuted Christians?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. madrchsod spoke of the Israeli govt, yet you now talk about Jews...

Gimme a break indeed....

Violet...

[Englander]

35. Well-spotted, Vi.

Perhaps the poster "mis-typed"?

:)

[Colorado Blue]

30. I have a lot of other sources including The Guardian, which

I'll post later. There have been many troubling incidents, which may become more numerous and acute if Hamas decides to impose sharia law.

I do agree that a lot of the problems confronting Palestinian Christians are the same ones that confront everybody else in this neighborhood, namely the stresses of conflict and war. This can't be seen as a normal situation.

Even so I think there's a troubling tendency in recent years, toward more religious extremism rather than less. I'm not sure this is caused by the political situation, or if it's actually contributing to it.

Probably, it's a bit of both. We're seeing the same tendencies elsewhere, so this isn't a phenomenon related strictly to I/P.

As far as the situation of Christian communities throughout the Middle East, look at the Copts, the Maronites, the Armenians, or the Christians who are under severe attack in the Sudan. Israel isn't involved at all in those areas, nor in Nigeria, or in the far East, where Christians have been attacked. So I don't think you can dismiss my sources out of hand if you look at the big picture.

Also, I don't see why faith-based sources are necessarily bad sources in matters of faith. The Christian community, like the Jewish and Muslim communities, or the Hindu and Buddhist communities, etc, keeps track of attacks on their brethren, which might not necessarily make the mainstream news. So I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

[Englander]

32. The sources were hateful nonsense.

The articles linked were hateful nonsense, I can't believe that anyone could
not see that, I find it incredulous that anyone could think that the 700 club,
&tc would be a credible source of objective, fact-based info. Ah. Well, actually,
I *can* believe that there are such characters.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. It's amazing what some of our fellow DU'ers find themselves in bed with...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x117502#117542

:)


Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

38. Uh huh. Here's a story from the Guardian.

Homes razed in mob fury at couple's 'affair'

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Monday September 5, 2005
The Guardian


The only brewery in the Palestinian territories escaped an attack yesterday by a mob that razed a dozen homes over an alleged affair between a Christian man whose family owns the beer factory and a Muslim woman from a neighbouring village who was then murdered by her own family.

The attack on Taybeh, a wholly Christian village which gives its name to a popular Palestinian beer, came despite appeals from residents to their neighbours in Deir Jarir to refrain from violence while the body of the murdered 25-year-old woman, identified only as Haim, was disinterred for DNA tests to try to ascertain if she had sex with the accused man, Mahdi Abu Houria.

"Because we were afraid of what would happen, we got permission from Abu Mazen to dig her up from her grave and have DNA testing," said Maria Khoury, the wife of Taybeh's mayor who co-owns the brewery. "You can't just accuse someone without evidence. They buried without testing. We are very suspicious that this family raped their daughter and buried her and they want to find an excuse to destroy our village."

The accused woman was murdered by her family last week in an "honour killing" after the alleged affair was made public. Palestinian women's groups say that women are sometimes killed after being raped by relatives who then attempt to shift responsibility for pregnancy to an innocent man.

snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1562709,00.html

The point: this is a complex part of the world, multi-layered and multi-faceted.

[Englander]

43. You were making a point?

Where is it? All I can see is attempts to prove there's a "clash of civilisations",
or some-such hateful nonsense.

[Colorado Blue]

41. What about this?

http://persecution.net.master.com/texis/master/search/mysite.html?q=palestine

There are lots of links here.

More:

http://www.domini.org/openbook/pal20000423.htm

Christians under the Palestinian Authority Persecuted

April 23, 2000

"Christians in Palestinian Authority (PA)-administered territories and in
certain Arab communities in Israel have found themselves facing KGB style
tactics, including life threats. Prayer meetings, worship services,
gatherings and conferences, etc. are under surveillance by observers
positioned by the Authority, following a PA law dictating that six people
cannot be in one place without notifying the government. Christians known
to the PA have been accused of acting against the Muslim faith, as the PA
witness these Christian congregational ministries growing among the Muslim
majority. There is constant concern about the future of such churches in
areas under the Palestinian's control.

The current PA policy in regards to the exercise of the individuals right
to religious freedom strains its democratic claim at this juncture of the
Final Status Talks. The policy of the PA is so severe that it is in
conflict with the provisions of the International Religious Freedom Act in
the U.S. Under the latter's provisions, abrogation of human rights, as the
PA threatens, could bring the PA under U.S. trade sanctions.

Israeli Arab New Testament believers face injustice, lack of mercy and
meanness of spirit. In the PA, they are confronted with betrayal and
torture. This is sometimes even resulting in internal distrust among Arab
Christians towards one another."

There's quite a bit of information out there, if you're willing to look for it.

[Englander]

42. Why have you posted those?

Is there a reason, because they're basically irrelevant to any point I was making,
I didn't make any comments regarding the non-existence of any persecution, the point
I was making was solely regarding the wackiness of yer posted links. I think, Cb, it would
help if you *actually*read* & comprehended what yer being told. I'm not terribly interested
in looking at some obscure "vanity" sites, that's a Golden Rule, that's something to remember,
if the site's not from a credible org/news service, I'd much rather you sent them to
some one else, if you must post them.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. About Project Open Book: those darn Communists and Muslims!!

Late in 1995, I read an article by a friend documenting atrocities commited against Christians by Communists and Muslims. Although I had long been aware of how Communists treated Christians, I knew very little about Muslims. And I had no way of knowing whether the kinds of incidents my friend reported were common occurrences or merely isolated events.

When I asked around I was assured that such incidents, if they had even occurred, were isolated events. Islam, I was told, means peace, and Muslim societies have long been noted for their tolerance of other religions. I was also shown several passages from the Qur'an to buttress that claim.

It wasn't very long, however, before more incidents started coming to my attention: Christians being thrown into jail, tortured, or killed; anti-Christian riots; terrorist attacks on Christian villages, and more. In fact, it became eminently clear that the incidents I'd read about earlier were not isolated events, but part of a widespread and chronic pattern in Muslim lands. And I resolved that the sufferings of my Christian brothers and sisters would not go unremarked, as long as I had the means to spread the word.

That's what I'm doing with Project Open Book: spreading the word. The purpose of this page is not to disparage Islam. Nor do I mean to imply that all--or even most--Muslims are bad people. But neither will I turn my back on my people, on God's people. To be silent simply because someone might be offended is to betray those who are suffering for the sake of the Gospel. Ultimately, it betrays the Gospel itself.

God forbid.

http://www.domini.org/openbook/aboutpob.htm

Why the hell is this sort of crap being linked to as though it's a credible source, while I've just come from a thread where an organisation with links to the UN wasn't considered to be credible? What's the world coming to, Dog forbid...

On a bit of a side-note, though this is a good place to mention it - there's mountains of crap on the internet, so that anyone who decides to 'research' something by going into it with a predetermined position can find all sorts of crap that will persuade them that all this 'research' isn't an ends to a mean, but genuine research that is leading them to an astonishing conclusion that they would never have thought of if it hadn't been for all this 'research'. Supporters of Eugenics in the early 20th century carried out their 'research' that way so that depending on what nationality the researcher was, their research showed that their particular group was always the superior one...


Violet...

[Englander]

45. Well, at least there wasn't any mention of Nazi-arabs!

Which is an improvement of sorts, I imagine. The writer of that site sounds like a
bit of a reactionary bigot, doesn't s/he?

Yeah, it's a bit of a minefield trying to find info on the internet, which is why it's
best to stick to credible sources, such as ngos/news agencies/newspapers/&tc. If one
goes off looking for the *truth*, with a prejudicial attitude, the sites & sources one
finds will, most likely, be less than credible.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. There's a bit of a formula from those folk...

First few paragraphs question Islam being a religion of peace and point out the authors real feelings about how Islam isn't a tolerant religion. Last paragraph then contains weak attempts to fend off anyone noticing that they're a raving bigot by contradicting everything else they've said by claiming that they've got nothing against Islam and Muslims, and that they wish everyone could be as darn tolerant as they themselves are...

Violet...

[Englander]

48. That's it.

Or the other way around, the 1st para or two mentions the author's tolerance,
understanding, & life-long love of Islam. The cut-off point usually starts with
"but" or "however", & the dozen or so remaining paras, or the content of the site
completely contradicts those claims of tolerance, the claims of tolerance are
negated by all the articles that protray Islam as intolerant, &tc.

[Scurrilous]

36. CBN and Pat Robertson...

...the brethren of Palestinian Christians?


:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

9. Some background on these lunatics!

'I have nothing against Christians or Muslims'

The Tiberias Magistrate's Court issued Saturday evening a 15-day remand extension for the three family members suspected of detonating fireworks in the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth the night before.

One of the suspects, Violet Habibi, collapsed on the way out of the courthouse. An ambulance arrived at the scene to give her medical treatment.

Police rescued the Habibi family members from the church after they detonated fireworks during a prayer service. Ensuing riots lightly injured 13 police officers and 13 civilians. Four cars were set on fire, including two police vehicles.

<snip>

The hearing revealed that Haim Habibi took the lead role in planning the incident, and that Odelia had asked her parents not to go ahead with the plan. She also said that she was beaten by worshippers after the act.

Attorney Pninat Yanay, who is representing the family, said that the couple are stunned by the repercussions of the incident and want to apologize for what they've done. "Since their child was taken from them at the beginning of the week, they have been wandering around dazed and rejected by various courts. They are very sorry about the incident and feel indebted to the church, which has helped them financially to find shelter in hotels when they had nowhere to go," she said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/689946.html

[catnhatnh]

22. I AM a Christian-in fact of the most fanatical form...

I am a Catholic and in fact spoke the mass in a dead language (latin) in my youth.I forgive the transgressors-that is what MY lord told me to do.I forgive the damage to the shrines-My lord told me to ignore worldly things.I hope for peace in the region (My lord said "Blessed be the peacemakers...")
I expect that somehow this will be twisted into some form of outrage against those who attacked ancient adobe and petrified wood-but that AIN"T what My lord taught me...

[Colorado Blue]

39. You know what everybody is missing here? The original

incident was a stupid, pointless act apparently carried out by a desperate fool.

The aftermath was violent. People were injured, property was damaged, four cars were set on fire; there was a march involving thousands of people carrying signs that read, "Death to the Jews."

Certain People are trying to make out that this sad affair was the result of living in Israel - that merely living in Israel, being raised in Israel, caused this pair - of mixed religious background mind you - to be "racist" and hateful.

The aftermath is at least as troubling as the incident itself. Yet nobody seems to be noticing this, that people are attempting to make political hay out of it, and indeed attempting to create or increase, political, ethnic and religious tension. A stupid, thoughtless and potentially dangerous act by a troubled couple is providing an excuse for people to try and smear "the zionist entity." That of course is business as usual but it is wrong nevertheless.

Thankfully, the Vatican envoy Pizzabella has extended the Vatican's forgiveness for this stupid act.

But the violent aftermath and the fact that people in the 21st century, in Israel, are carrying signs that read "Death to the Jews", is frightening.

Why aren't people commenting on this? That IS a fact, yet people are continuing to try and put negative "spin" on the original act, while refusing to see that 2,000 years of bias is still virulent.

From J Post:

'On its Web site, the (Franciscan) Custody condemned the riot and those who were using the incident to make political capital.

"The Custody…deplores the violent mob scenes that followed (the attack), and expresses appreciation for the quick and prudent action of the police who took charge of the delinquents, while at the same time defending the sacred place from the rioting mob," it said.

"The Custody disapproves of the attempt in some quarters to leverage the incident inside the Shrine in pursuit of other interests and political agendas having nothing to do with the matter at hand," it said.

However, it didn't say to which "other interests" or "political agendas" it was referring.'

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395548187&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Spinoza]

49. CB, just one question.

How do you stand it?

[meti57b]

50. It's just another illustration of how criticism of Israel .....

is based on specious and false allegations.

[pelsar]

51. i love this place....

its a real eye opener on how just any and every event can somehow lead to show just how evil the israeli society is....no matter how absurd, how far away.....it leads back to little israel.

human mistakes, fragilities, technological and human limitations, poor decisions are all disavowed when it comes to israel...everything that happens, is because of some inated evilness of the jewish israelis....mistakes never happen in israel.

but by far the most interesting is how so few will come to its defense.......no matter how absurd the attack.....

[Spinoza]

52. Yes.

La Rochefoucauld: "We never forgive those whom we have wronged." (1667)

[Violet_Crumble]

53. But you have no problems with labelling Palestinian society as evil...

Why is it okay to do that, then?


And as I've pointed out to you, yr the only person in this forum who uses the word 'evil' and 'Israel' in the same sentence with monotonous regularity....

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Shouldn't you be asking me that?

;)