Amazing news-lines from Russian Newspaper Pravda Ru.....

[Flabbergasted]

http://english.pravda.ru/topic/Hamas-24/

Headlines: (Chronologically backward in time)

Hamas delegation in Moscow praises Russia and attacks Israel

03.03.2006

Middle Eastern war to become eternal as Israel ends ties with Palestine

20.02.2006

The fundamental flaws in the policy adopted by Washington and Tel Aviv towards Hamas

20.02.2006

USA cuts funds to Palestine, Russia prepares to deliver arms for Hamas

17.02.2006

Hamas election victory in Palestine: Goodbye peace, goodbye road map

01.02.2006

Israel: Fascist tactics/Israel shows true colours

21.12.2005

[Captain Hilts]

1. Russia suggested Hamas recognized Israel.

Pravda still isn't accurate.

[Flabbergasted]

2. So the Russian paper isn't correctly reporting news in its own country?

Its our spin. In addition Pravda is incredibly frank in its news. Its blatant propaganda not our more kindly/compassionate propaganda.

[Flabbergasted]

3. In what way exactly? Give it a swing....

[Captain Hilts]

4. I read Moscow News and Izvestia daily.

Putin suggested that Hamas recognize Israel last week.

There's an old saying, "There's no 'Pravda' in Izvestia and no 'Izvestia' in Pravda." That's still half right I guess.

[Flabbergasted]

5. So Pravda is really just Russian State propaganda and

Moscow News and Izvestia daily are more independent?

[Captain Hilts]

6. Yes. Moscow Times [not News] is western run and Izvestia has...

exchange agreements with western press folks.

Check the Beeb.

[Flabbergasted]

7. That doesn't say a whole lot? Western doesn't mean independent?

[occuserpens]

8. Absolutely not

So Pravda is really just Russian State propaganda

they are far enough from the Kremlin. In general, Rusian are pretty confused on the ME. Especially liberals who are heavily pro-Israel.

[karynnj]

9. But there's also a historic streak of anti-semitism

There were pograms (where Jews were killed for being Jews) well in the 1900s.

[occuserpens]

10. This has nothing to do with pravda.ru

-- pravda.ru is hugely different from Brezhnevian Pravda, not to mention the Bolshevik Pravda of the 1900-ies.
-- Early Bolsheviks were Jew-friendly (and many of them were ehnically Jewish) although they were anti-Zionist.
-- Russian pogroms were the work of far-rightists who were as hostile towards far-leftist Boslheviks as they were towards the Jews.
-- In the whole, pogroms were a minor sideshow for the first Russian revolution of 1905.

[Coastie for Truth]

11. -- In the whole, pogroms were a minor sideshow ....

-- In the whole, pogroms were a minor sideshow for the first Russian revolution of 1905.

Kinda like lynchings in the South? Only a minor side show if you were the host - but not if you were the guest of honor.

[occuserpens]

12. It depends on the period

Kinda like lynchings in the South? Only a minor side show if you were the host - but not if you were the guest of honor.

During the Civil war, lynchings were a minor sideshow. After WW2, things changed.

[Coastie for Truth]

13. I will have to exhume my grand parents and ask them about Pogroms

And - sad to say - the Lenten Season was also Pogrom Season.

[occuserpens]

18. see below

[Colorado Blue]

14. Minor sideshow? Yeah I suppose if you're looking at if from

the POV of the MAJORITY.

If you are us, it wasn't a minor sideshow. My grandparents WALKED out of Russia to the west to escape them.

I have more to say but it is impolite.

[Igel]

17. The early Bolsheviks

took whatever help they could get, and forged alliances where they were convenient.

When they stopped being convenient, the alliances were dispensed with as inconvenient. The march of history could not be thwarted.

For example: Sectarians smuggled in communist party materials; they were actively courted to participate in opposition to the Orthodox-supported tsarist government. But as soon as they were no longer needed, the anti-obscurantism campaigns caused the sectarians to be persecuted more than the Orthodox.

Relations with Jews and other ethnic minorities, with capitalists, with other political parties followed the same pattern ... Budennyj was neither a rightist, nor despised by the Bolshevik Party.

[karynnj]

23. The pogroms weren't a minor side show

if you were Jewish. My husband's grandmother who emigrated to the US lost siblings to this "side show". I was not speaking of any era in particular. Also, though the early Bolsheviks included Jews - many were killed in the Stalin purges. (Many because they were Jewish)

[Colorado Blue]

15. This is very true. There was persecution all throughout the

Soviet years and now, it's rising anew.

[occuserpens]

20. I don't read it much

[Colorado Blue]

16. A "minor sideshow", the pogroms?

From wikipedia:

Two million Jews fled Russia between 1880 and 1914, many going to the United States.

Many pogroms accompanied the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire; the number of Jewish orphans exceeded 300,000.

The "May Laws" http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/33.html

Map of The Pale http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/pale.html

There was also a great movement to flee after WWII. But that's another story.

[occuserpens]

19. Unfortunately, yes

On the scale of the Russian revolution and civil war. What are the total numbers for the Russian immigration?

BTW, do you know what happened in China in the early 20c? Wiki does not give loss numbers, but there is little doubt that they are ugly!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War

[Coastie for Truth]

21. A little bit of street smart, pop-poli sci and pop-psych and pop-sociology

Your append illustrates several ugly things.

1. In the minds of some, it gives rise to a feeling that maybe the Israeli Law of Return is essential - even for people from the US, Canada, the UK, France, etc. (i.e., "The West").

2. In the minds of some, it gives rise to a feeling that maybe there was a scintilla of truth in the meanderings of David Horowitz, Dennis Prager, Mike Savage, Daniel Pipes, etc.

3. In the minds of some, it gives a monolayer of validity to the Neocons and AIPAC about the need for a very strong Israel.

4. In the minds of some, it gives a monolayer of validity to the "armed Jewish citizenry" model of Kahane.

5. Me - begin facetious sarcasm - I just put my Charlton Heston screen saver back active - the one from the NRA that shows him as Mosesend facetious sarcasm

[Colorado Blue]

26. As I said - for you a little sideshow. For us, a catastrophe.

One of the keys to being a progressive, is being able to relate to minorities and to individuals.

It's called "empathy". History does not just consist of raw numbers. One shouldn't dust people off so lightly, nor assume that events have little meaning because they "only" affected 2 million people or thereabouts.

Given that the global population of the Jewish people today is 13 million, indeed 2 million less than before the Holocaust - those 2 million affected by the Russian pogroms represented a significant percentage of our population.

Yes, I'm aware of other tragedies. I have studied history all my life. I'm 56 and still learning. And one thing I've learned is this: history is about big movements but it is also about individual human beings. Life is not experienced by groups, by numbers. Life is experienced by PEOPLE. Individual people laugh, suffer, weep, make love, create art, dance, give birth, and die.

It's a grave error to relegate peoples to the level of insignificance because their numbers are small.

[bemildred]

22. It's not something I've studied, but it's my impression that Jew-baiting

and the like were popular well before 1880 in E. Europe and Russia, and elsewhere (e.g. Spain after the reconquista). On the other hand, the Jews have never had the numbers to compete on that basis with some of the more ambitious efforts at extermination carried out in the 20th century, Stalin and Mao in particular stand out in that regard, and the Japanese before and during WWII, outstripping even the Nazis in my opinion. Mr. Serpens reference to the Chinese Civil War is well taken in that regard, and the History of the White Russians is interesting and little attended to, and the Kulaks and Poland under the Germans and Soviets. I suppose you could call that last Karma of sorts.

[occuserpens]

24. The notion of social equality as we know it

Simply did not exist before the 19c. So, any discussion of Jewish / minority rights made no sense before that.

[Colorado Blue]

27. What about the simple right to live?

That makes no sense?

[occuserpens]

28. In a feudal society

all serf's "rights" come to obeying his master, period

[Coastie for Truth]

30. The days of feudalism are over

Gun powder, the long rifle, and the Second Amendment ended feudalism

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

And Charlton Heston played Moses.

[occuserpens]

32. Not in the ME

[Colorado Blue]

31. Oh. So a Jewish person, in a feudal society, shouldn't

complain about being asked to die quietly.

(insert impolite comment here).

I am having difficulty figuring out your POINT.

[occuserpens]

33. The way feudal society works

people play their roles, and this is it.

[Coastie for Truth]

34. That ended with

Gunpowder
The Long rifle
The Printing Press

[bemildred]

29. I don't believe I mentioned minority rights.

I mean, you are correct more or less, but I wasn't discussing legal rights in the modern sense.

[Colorado Blue]

25. Oh - of course you're correct on both counts. Jew-baiting

dates back long before the 19th century and our numbers are small, now about 13 million worldwide - so as you point out the sheer magnitude of what happened in China and the Soviet Union is hard to compete with, as it were.

I've been reading a bit about what happened in Eastern Europe in the last days, and just after, WWII. Whoa.