UN envoy calls on Israel to end air violations of Lebanon

[Englander]

7 March 2006 – Secretary General Kofi Annan’s Personal Representative for Southern Lebanon once more called on Israel today to end its air violations of the Blue Line and Lebanese sovereignty.

“These air violations come at a delicate time during Lebanon’s efforts to re-assert its sovereignty and independence, including, among other things, through the historic national dialogue currently underway,” Geir O. Pedersen said in a statement after four Israeli air violations yesterday and one so far today.

He reminded all parties that one violation cannot justify another and called on them to respect fully the Blue Line demarcating Israel’s withdrawal from Southern Lebanon in 2000.

Link;
UN News Centre

[bemildred]

1. Hey, the dick-waving is important.

"We have F-16s and you don't" is a very important message.

Kofi is probably right that this sort of thing is not conducive to peace and unity in Lebanese politics, but I don't know that anybody actually cares much about that, other than rhetorically.

[pelsar]

2. try recon flights....

in case its been forgotten...southern lebanon is occupied by the hizballa which makes perodic attacks upon israel.....but then why should that bother anybody....its only arabs terrorizing arabs and attacking jews occasionally....

[bemildred]

3. Yeah, I guess they could be massing to cross the border any day now ... nt

[pelsar]

13. class in is session:

military briefing for all those who have no idea how military intelligence gathering works.

its a process that requires info from several sources....and is collected daily...and analyzed daily.....since the advantage is with the attackers the defenders have no idea just when the attack will occur,

in order to obtain information when these attacks will occur it means gathering information daily and looking for the small signs when it will occur

putting those pieces of info together give the defenders a better picture of the situation and sometimes the time of the planned attack.

recon flights over the attackers territory are in integral part of it.

once again the problem is not israel..its the hizballa occupying Southern Lebanon and not just threatening but attacking israel accross the intl border.

for those interested in peace...the question is not why is israel defending itself (though we have seen that many ask that as well) but why is Lebanon letting part of their country be occupied by a terrorist group that not only terrorizes the local population but attacks israel (or is this the definition of a "peaceful border?)
______________________________
for those who complain about the recon flights, they might as well as complain about israel defending itself....it amounts to the same thing

[bemildred]

15. 1.) The notion that F-16s are good for recon is fatuous.

2.) The notion that Hiz'bullah could mass an invasion force on the N. border without being noticed is also fatuous.
3.) The notion that advantage lies with the attacker is simplistic, at best, a recipe for getting your force destroyed at worst. You conflate the notion that, when attacking, one also wants surprise, with the notion that attacking offers some advantage independent of ones technical and tactical abilities, which has been disproven by the course of events many times. The French got their ass kicked six-ways from Sunday in the early stages of WWI with all that "audace, toujours audace" horseshit.

[pelsar]

18. what?.....

F-16s have no recon ability?.......

plus whos talking about an "invason"....the interests up north are small attacks, terrorism and kidnappings.

i dont believe you have much experience in the realm of being attacked.....i really have a hard time writing this since its so basic to a soldier:

an attacking soldier WANTS the element of surprise, does everything he can to have it.....the opposite is so absurd that words fail me.

one shouldnt try to explain something to someone when the first has no experience and the second one does.....

_________
as far as being surprised by invading forces....1973

[bemildred]

19. Re: what:

F-16s have rather good sensors, have to, but it's an expensive way to go about it, and they don't hover well, if you see what I mean. Using then to sniff out small attacks is even more ludicrous. One could use them to look for radars etc, but there are better aircraft designed for that purpose.

I am not a soldier at all, nor am I suggesting soldiers would not want surprise on their side, I was talking about the notion that the attacker has an advantage, and I was talking about using F-16s for recon against Hiz'bullah, which is your claim, and saying that it's a ridiculous way to go about that, and that the real purpose of using them in this way is an attempt at intimidation.

Now, with respect to surprise, the thing is that the attacker is at a disadvantage against a well dug-in enemy, and it is precisely because of that disadvantage that he will normally demand all the compensating advantage of surprise that he can muster.

I don't suppose flying supersonic recon missions over Beirut is likely to produce much intelligence about Hiz-bullah activities, in any case.

[pelsar]

23. try asking....

you assume way too much....based on no knowledge:

arial recon is about signs as well as real time info....equipment, where its stored, when its moved etc....one doesnt "hover" for recon missions....thats suicidal.

and surprise....technology has its limitations

a "well dug in enemy" is not the case up north in many positions. The defense of civilians means the soldiers are exposed.

and a "well dug in enemy has it weak points...case in point an attack during a heavy fog..the defenders are blind. I could go on, but i think it would be realistic if you stop here.....stick to what you know.

[bemildred]

20. 1973:

It is my understanding that there was a good deal of criticism of the complacent attitude about the Egyptian concentrations prior to the Sinai war, that the signs were there and they were ignored, no lack of F-16 recon missions was at fault.

[pelsar]

21. ignoring signs..

first you have to have them..and then comes the interpretation..without the arial photos you cant even get that far..

you didnt mention...how many hours have you spent peering through night vision goggles trying to find movement of a potential attacker?...trying to decifer shadows and rocks from a potential human...be it child, man, dog, or bag blowing in the wind?...for 8-12 hours straight?.....

[bemildred]

22. Well, this has been a fun chat.

I really must be going now. I can see you want to discuss night vision goggles and fear in the trenches and things like that, but I was really only interested in the F-16s.

[pelsar]

24. i could do that too

i do know quite abit about F-16s as well......and not just the theory part...(but i dont think you do)

[bemildred]

25. I suppose it's all too secret to share ... nt

[pelsar]

26. what do you want to know...

you already guessed wrong about the F-16s ability and use for recon....

[bemildred]

16. PS:

It is dick-waving and nothing more, and a great waste of money and fuel to boot.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. I see. So it's okay to violate another countries sovereignty?

btw, when was the last time hizbollah attacked Israel?

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

5. November 21, 2005.

Whoops...Seems I was mistaken....

The last date was February 3, 2006.

Israel hits south Lebanon after Hizbollah attack

Lebanon, Feb 3 (Reuters) - Israeli aircraft and artillery pounded suspected Hizbollah positions in south Lebanon on Friday after guerrillas attacked an Israeli military post in the border Shebaa Farms area, wounding one soldier.

Hizbollah said the attack with rockets and mortar bombs on the Rwaisat al-Alam position was in retaliation to the killing of a Lebanese shepherd by Israeli soldiers deployed at the post.

Israel confirmed the strikes and held the Lebanese government responsible for the Hizbollah attack.

"We see this attack as a very serious provocation from the Hizbollah terror organisation which is working under the auspices of Lebanon," Israeli army spokeswoman Avital Leibowich said. "The State of Israel holds the Lebanese government responsible for any terror attack emanating from its territory."

more...

On edit: Had to correct the date....

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Can you give a bit more detail than just a date?

n/t

[Englander]

7. Here;

Deadly clash on Lebanese border

Israeli troops have killed three Hezbollah fighters during a guerrilla attack near the Lebanese border, which also left several Israelis wounded.

It was the heaviest fighting in the Shebaa Farms area since 2000, when Israeli troops left south Lebanon.

Hezbollah fighters launched a major assault on Israeli army posts, triggering retaliatory air strikes.

Israel captured the area from Syria in the 1967 war but it is now claimed by Lebanon with Syria's backing.

Eyewitnesses reported at least 250 explosions in an intense two-and-a-half hours of rocket duels.

Scores of fighters were observed taking part in the Hezbollah operation, which Lebanese security sources said was aimed at taking Israeli hostages.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4456984.stm

_________________________________


Now that's been answered, hopefully the issue that was mentioned in your 1st comment,
namely the sovereignty of Lebanese air-space, can be addressed. Because the Iaf frequently
violates said air-space, that's an issue that shouldn't be ignored.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Yeah, I thought the sovereignty question was important...

Though I'm still trying to get my head around the news that Shebaa Farms is Israel...

Violet...

[Englander]

11. Ah, well-spotted.

I didn't read the original question properly;

--when was the last time hizbollah attacked Israel?--

From the Bbc;


Last Updated: Wednesday, 28 December 2005,

Rockets from Lebanon hit Israel

At least four rockets fired from Lebanese territory have hit Israeli towns close to the border without causing casualties.

Three of the Katyusha rockets slammed into Kiryat Shmona, directly hitting one house and knocking out electricity, while a fourth hit the town of Shlomi.

Israeli army sources blamed Lebanon's Hezbollah group but there was no confirmation from the militants.

The border zone has been tense since Israel left south Lebanon in 2000.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4563216.stm

__________________________


I think the sovereignty question is very important, to ignore it is to ignore
the disregard that the GoI/idf/iaf has for international law, &tc, which is the
primary reason why Isreal is regarded as a 'pariah state', it's another eg of the
blatant disregard that is soemtimes displayed by Isreali officials.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Shebaa Farms

They are considered to be Syrian land captured at the same time the Golan Heights were. As far as the UN is concerned, Israel doesn't occupy/maintain any Lebanese land.

[Englander]

8. The iaf competely ignores Lebanese sovereignty, it appears;

Report of the Secretary-General on the United Nations
Interim Force in Lebanon
(For the period from 22 July 2005 to 20 January 2006)

>snip

10. The Israeli Air Force violated Lebanese airspace on many occasions during the
reporting period, disturbing the relative calm along the Blue Line. During the time
of heightened tension in November, overflights by jets, helicopters and unmanned
aerial vehicles or drones were numerous and particularly intrusive and provocative.
Following the Hizbollah attack on 21 November, Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets
over some areas of Lebanon, including Beirut. Israeli officials maintained the
position that overflights would be carried out whenever Israel deemed them
necessary. Since mid-December, the number of Israeli air violations has decreased.
As in the past, Israeli aircraft often penetrated deep into Lebanese airspace,
sometimes generating sonic booms over populated areas. The pattern identified in
my previous reports continued, whereby the aircraft would sometimes fly out to sea
and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding
direct observation and verification by UNIFIL.

(pdf)
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N06/208/97/PDF/N0620897.pdf?OpenElement

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Do see the edited post #5. n/t

[Englander]

12. Why? Does it address the question of sovereignty? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

31. No. It shows a lack of responsiblity...

...by Lebanon!

[pelsar]

14. its not a matter of when they attacked...

its a matter of when they will attack again..or are you suggesting that israel shouldnt be prepared for the next attack?....and just let its citizens be killed?

is S. Lebanon a sovereign country?...as far as i know its "owned by hizballa"..which threatens and attackes israel at certain intervals. Maybe if the Lebanese took back their country from Hizballa and stopped the attacks upon israel, there might be a point....but thats not the case now is it.....

[Englander]

27. Wow, who knew, S. Lebanon's a country!

Priceless.

[pelsar]

28. i wouldnt know.....

but it sure not part of lebanon.....or is it when an arabs miltia occupy an arab nations land..thats somewhat different from when jews occupy "arab land"...so confusing

[Behind the Aegis]

29. That isn't what Pelsar said, and you know it!

Do you honestly believe that Lebanon should not try to control it's own 'rebels?'

So, if a radical group, in Southern Israel, started bombing raids, unprovoked, on Gaza, should Israel just sit by and say, "well, they don't represent the government of Israel?"

You expect Israel to round up its "crazies," why don't you feel the same about Lebanon?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Not "reverse discrimination"

I call it the "AIDS complex.*" "It's killing all the right people!"

*In the US, since AIDS was considered a "gay disease," few took notice or cared because "it was killing all the right people!"

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. I know what yr going to say...

Yr going to say that you don't give a shit about international law or believe that sovereignty over-rides any percieved fear, but that only applies to Israel. When it comes to anything else, no other country is supposed to have security fears and if they flew recon flights over Tel Aviv, suddenly international law would be the most important thing in the world...

Violet...

[pelsar]

35. percieved fear?

so the hizballa attacks are just "perceived". (I'll have to remember that next time to tell my buddies, that they're not really scared...its just percieved)...kind of like the kassams that are crashing in to israel from gaza...just "perceived terrorizm"....none of which warrent israel defending itself...funny how that works...are those bullets that the hizballa shoots also "percieve"?...i guess those dead israelis arent really dead.

outside of that...look around at Egypt/Jordan/Syria....all of them attempt with some success to control their borders and there are no over flights:

gaza doesnt and has over flights, lebanon doesnt and has overflights....guess theres a pattern here.

btw...i would guess that overflights are probably legal when one is being attacked from that country...or are the attacks from Lebanon legal....or is the defense illegal...which is it


Percieved fear...now that must must be the poorest description of a humans reaction to potenially being shot at......unless of course their israelis where normal human reactions just dont seem to fit.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Yep, perceived fear...

When you claim that Hizbollah are trying to kill *you*, that's a perceived fear. The idea that yr under some imminent danger of being attacked and killed is ridiculous, pelsar. Don't you think the Lebanese people have more to fear from Israel? After all, how many thousand of them were killed by Israel during the invasion of Lebanon?

Pelsar, you appear incapable or unwilling to admit that people in other countries have just as much right to have security fears as you do, and that's wrong...

Violet...

[pelsar]

39. i am quite capable of understanding fear....

which was why i was very happy when the IDF pulled back to the intl borders...leaving lebanon to the lebanese.....strange how that wasnt enough of certain lebanese..who seem to insist on attempting to kill israelis..and that does include me.

so perhaps you can explain just what the hizballa is doing in S.Lebanon...and why is it every so often they seem to cross the border in various attempts to kill us?

perhaps it is they that should let the lebanese govt control their own border?

perhaps, you could explain why in Jordan, Egypt they have no security fears from israel and yet as you claim in lebanon they do?...and in gaza?

perhaps its the simple fact that in those places they insist on shooting at us?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No, I don't think you are...

It's all about *you* and Israelis, yet you never once say anything about the very real fears of people living in neighbouring states. That says a hell of a lot...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

36. question

You asked me earlier when was the last attack from Lebanon (or Hiz'ballah). When was the last attack on Lebanon from Israel without being attacked first?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Yeah, but I asked for a reason..

..and the reason was because Hizbollah attacks were being used as an excuse for the Israeli recon flights. As far as I'm aware, there's no Lebanese recon flights over Israel, so I don't see the point of the question...

Violet...

[pelsar]

40. the excuse....

a bit backwards.....Hizballa attacks are the excuse for israeli recon fights....

how about this thought.....if Hizballa didnt attack....or threaten to attack...israel wouldnt need recon flights....that infact not only makes more sense, but given the lack of recon flights over Jordan, Syria and Egypt...none of whom threaten israel with attacks...proves the point:

dont threaten israel....no recon flights....very simply and proveable cause and affect.

whats difficult to understand here?...what makes it more interesting is why in fact is hizballa attacking israel?...the intl border isnt good enough for them? (now theres a surprise....)