Israeli water grab harms Palestinians

[bemildred]

Israel's vast separation wall slices Nazlet Isa off from one of the richest water sources in the arid northern West Bank where the fight for water is a fight for survival.

Israel is believed to monopolise about 75% of Palestinian water resources in a region where rainfall is infrequent and water a strategic asset.

In the agriculture-dependent Palestinian territories, hemmed in by Jewish settlements, the lack of resources causes havoc for farmers, while pollution and inadequate waste disposal create manifold sanitation and health problems.

In the northern West Bank town of Nazlet Isa, giant concrete slabs 10 metres high - lambasted as an apartheid wall by the Palestinians - have left six homes stranded on the Israeli side along with the rich underground aquifer.

al Jazeera

[peacetalksforall]

1. Disgusting. Despicable. Sad. What is to like about their

policies? Squeeze them out - water and waste?

[Matilda]

2. And just to make things worse,

having stolen the water from the Palestinians, Israel then sells it back to them for a huge profit.

While Palestinians have to pay what is to them a small fortune for water for drinking, washing and
cooking, the settlements have swimming pools and hot showers, right under Palestinians noses.

And they wonder why the Palestinians resent their presence.

[idontwantaname]

3. bump for greed.

go israeli settlers!

what youre doing is illegal and sponsored by the israeli govt but nobody cares!

[Tom Joad]

4. This is Olmert's plan. I don't think it will lead to peace. eom

[Coastie for Truth]

5. M. Mohsen and O. Al-Jayyousi et al.

at Applied Science University are working on technology that will make all of this emotional political haggling a piece of ancient history.

Search on "Mohsen OR Al_Jayyousi" AND "Phoresis OR Dialysis" AND "Desalination"

Added by edit: (Applied Science University is in Amman, Jordan)

[idontwantaname]

6. desalination has come up in this forum before...

however the argument is the palestinians should not need to rely on this when the free resources are available.

i would figure someone like you would be opposed to coca cola privatizing another countries water... this issue is no different.

ps- this would work better for gaza than the west bank.

[Coastie for Truth]

8. But before I jumped into fuel cell membranes

I was"playing" with the same membrane materials to desalinate synthetic salt water. (DuPont "Nafion" - ask me anything about "Nafion" poly perfluorosulfonyl ion exchange membrane);)

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Yeah, I agree with you on that...

The Palestinians shouldn't have to rely on desalination when they'd have their own water supplies if Israel did the right thing and stopped ripping off their resources...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

10. Please - read Kunstler, The Long Emergency:

"The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century" - water is a bigger emergency then "peak oil" -- world wide. And desalination is more important then alternative energy.

[idontwantaname]

11. water is more expensive than gas... i know...

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn5037

Israel lays claim to Palestine's water
10:15 27 May 2004
Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition
Fred Pearce, Jerusalem

<snip>

Under an agreement signed a decade ago as part of the Oslo accord, four-fifths of the West Bank's water is allocated to Israel, though the aquifers that supply it are largely replenished by water falling onto Palestinian territory.

<snip>

"The question is whether an average Palestinian family can afford it," says Arie Issar, a water expert at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Sede Boker, Israel, who helped green the Israeli desert a generation ago by finding new water sources in the region. "It would be foolish to desalinate water on the coast and push it up the mountains when there are underground water resources up there, which cost only a third as much."

<snip>

Palestinians badly need more water. Under the Oslo agreement they have access to 57 cubic metres of water per person per year from all sources. Israel gets 246 cubic metres per head per year. And in the nearly 40 years that Israel has controlled the West Bank, Palestinians have been largely forbidden from drilling new wells or rehabilitating old ones.

<snip>

...the two schemes would leave an independent Palestine more dependent on desalination than almost any other nation in the world.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Problem With Israeli Water

One of the problems with Israeli water is the high level of Magnesium ion (typically as magnesium hydroxide). So, it does require more treatment then, say, Appalachian or Rocky Mountain spring water. The chemical treatment to precipitate Mg eats into the cost penalty of desalination.

The Mg is removed along with the NaCl in desalination (in fact, it is removed preferentially).

Mg has certain acute physiological effects.

The Kunstler book was cited because Kunstler brings up the issue that we are "running out of" potable and agricultural water - world wide.

[Tom Joad]

13. Coastie, your getting all technical.

The problem is that Israel is taking water from Palestinian people by military means.

Address that issue.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. The world is "running out" of potable and agricultural water.

We are going to have to accept wide region water sharing, and desalination. I am no Malthusianist - I am a techie Cornucopialist - but we have to face the fact the world is "running out" of potable and agricultural water.

Water Resource Management has to be on a much wider basis then just Israel or just Jordan or just Palestine or just Lebanon -- and management may well include desalination and obviously treatment. And in our crowded world - water isn't going to be "free"

ARE YOU PREPARED AS A PARTISAN POLITICAL ACTIVIST TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE?

When I said "Mg has certain acute physiological effects" - I was referring to its laxative effect.

[idontwantaname]

16. world water forum

which just happened in mexico... good, bad or ugly?

[Coastie for Truth]

18. I are a injunear of leftie and green persuasion - NT

[barb162]

59. when you look at the hydrogeology of Mexico City, pretty ugly

[Tom Joad]

21. Are you prepared to defend

the taking of water by military occupation? Specifically, Israel's taking of water under Palestinian land for its own use? Taken by military force, that is not we commonly call "sharing". That is the issue at hand here.

Unpleasant subject to be sure.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. Klare says we are going to see a lot of that in the future

Check out "Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict" by Michael Klare.

As Kunstler, and Club of Rome suggest - this is what's happening because we (humans) have mismanaged God's gift.

[Tom Joad]

24. If that is the case, then that makes it ok?

"we (humans) have mismanaged God's gift", that is very true, even if one is not a believer in a deity thing. (and no, i do not want a theological tangent either)

And i often appreciate what Michael Klare has to say.

OK, now back to the subject... Palestinian resources being taken by the Israeli military. As a very partisan activist yourself, you should address the issue directly. Or not, but it really reflects badly on you to drift so far from the subject.

[Coastie for Truth]

25. I object to your characterization

"As a very partisan activist yourself," -- I would say that I am less partisan then the "Pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israeli" activists - and would consider myself a "Pro-Palestinian-Pro-Israeli" activist.

Don't forget - I'm the one who contributes to both Red Crescent and Red Mogen David.

It reflects very badly on some of the "Pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israeli" activists to get so ad hominem.

[Tom Joad]

28. A very important correction. I am not "anti-Israeli"

You are accusing me of being anti-Israeli, which is false.

I do oppose Israel governments policies that harm Palestinians, that does not make me "anti-Israeli", I oppose Jewish Israeli settlers attacks on Palestinians and internationals including members of the Christian Peacemaker Teams and International Solidarity Movement.

Any more than opposing Bush and his policies, makes me "anti-American", that is a very foolish kind of logic. A more insightful conservative may have the perspective that that though he thinks the Bush policies I disagree with are in the best interest of America, he may understand, however, that those who hold contrary views do not necessarily mean Americans harm. Not all conservatives are so insightful. And no, i am not accusing you of being conservative... just using that example to express my point. It could be about anything. The point is do not presume the worst.

I was not "accusing" you of anything, only that you do have political stances yourself. There is nothing wrong with having political views and expressing them, which seems to be the point of DU.
I think 98% of DU members would call themselves "partisan".

It is true that you have chosen not to directly address the political issue of Israeli confiscation of Palestinian water in this thread, and that is your choice.

[idontwantaname]

14. palestinian aquifer/well water doesnt need any treatment...

and this desalination process is reverse osmosis no? i didnt know there were extra steps needed to remove the Mg...

but as you said it... the israeli water has the problems so it should be the israelis who pay for it, correct.

[Coastie for Truth]

17. Really

How come we had to rush my kid to Sharray Zedeck -- and that's what the pediatrician told us, and that's what our family subsequently told us. And I found it subsequently in a WHO book

[idontwantaname]

19. im guessing youre responding to the drinkable well water comment?

if soperhaps one of the nearby settlers poisoned that well. other than that nobody i know has encountered any problems with the water.

[Coastie for Truth]

20. In Jerusalem in a western Hotel? Municipal water in French Hill ?

Come on -- you strain credibility.

[idontwantaname]

23. didnt stay in any western hotels while i was there...

i was in the west bank.. where the water IS drinkable.

[idontwantaname]

30. ive got it!

coastie seems ok with taking control of the water as long as you give some water back...

its like subbing out kobe style beef for basic american ground beef or hydroponically grown spinach for a spinach grown from a toxic and heavy metals littered soil.

[idontwantaname]

73. sneaky fuckers

so at present the proposal is to take the palestinians FREE DRINKABLE water in exchange for desalinated plant water... which USAID would pay for... but if/when the USAID no longer wants to be part of this process this leaves the palestinians with NO WATER.

any questions?

[Coastie for Truth]

74. Get used to it

Jim Kunstler ("The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century") and Rev. Robert Malthus called it right - not just for the Israelis, not just for the Palestinians - but for all of us - you and me too. And if you don't like desalination and walking and free range tofu and "artificial techie fixes" -- you can starve and freeze to death in darkness.

We are going to have to rely on desalination - and synthetic fuels/bicycles/shoe leather - and transit instead of SUV's.

Get used to it -- it just happens to be hitting the ME and sub-Sahara Africa first ---- NORTH AMERICA WILL BE SOON

:sarcasm:
OOPS! The American Petroleum Institute and Bush told you there was no such thing as "Peak Oil" or "Impending Water Shortages" or "Global Warming"

Believe Them if you want to - here's the link -- . Bush and his buddies will assure you that global warming and peak oil and water shortages are not happening - and if it is, blame the Israelis for it.

I call it Bushco's faith based "Luddite - Lemming - Sheeple" think
:sarcasm:

[idontwantaname]

75. oh. ok.

so to prolong MY lifestyle we will have to take away from those who have already lost so much and have little left to take.

so when you say itll be hitting N.america soon... just how soon is that?

[Coastie for Truth]

76. Didn't you read PNAC's Rebuilding America's Defenses

Here's the and that's exactly what it says, just like you said,

"so to prolong MY lifestyle we will have to take away from those who have already lost so much and have little left to take."

and that's exactly what Bush is doing for oil in Iraq.

We are already in energy wars. Agricultural and potable water wars are inevitable ---- just take a look at Michael T. Klare's "Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict" or Jim Kunstler's "The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century" -- and pick up a simple earth science intro book like A. Evans' "An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact."

When you ask

"so when you say itll be hitting N.america soon... just how soon is that?"

-- what is the US doing now, today, in Iraq? Prolonging our cheap, accessible, and dense energy lifestyle by killing Iraqis. That's what.

And when you ask

the answer is a darn sight sooner then either of us think, and that's nowithstanding what Bush's advisors think or what Bush himself thinks -- see "The Republican War on Science" by Chris Mooney, and "With God on Their Side: How Christian Fundamentalists Trampled Science, Policy, and Democracy in George W. Bush's White House" by Esther Kaplan.

This is not an Israeli versus Palestinian thing - this is not a Good Guys versus PNACERs thing. This is a crash of our eco system that boiled over first in sub-Sahara Africa and next in Israel-Palestine.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. That'd apply to my country...

..where water shortages are a huge problem. Fortunately for us there's no other country taking most of our water for the use of its own citizens. For the Palestinians the shortage of water is happening because Israel is taking most of the water resources in the West Bank. Are you suggesting that rather than the Palestinians have water that is theirs in the first place, Israel should be allowed to keep on taking it and the Palestinians should look somewhere else?

Violet...

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

26. Water facts. Water theft, and vandalism of Palestinian water sources.

Water sources for Palestinians have been damaged and sometimes destroyed by acts of deliberate vandalism by the Israeli military, and the settlers who live in the West Bank.

Obviously a very effective way to make people's life's miserable is to destroy the very basic means of existence, and that includes water wells, tanks, and just confiscating water aquifers. Basically, this is part of a systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing.

From:
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/water_use_and_distribution.htm
Water

Water Use and Distribution in the West Bank and Gaza Strip Distribution

* 75% of the Occupied West Bank & Gaza Strip renewable water resources are used by Israel.
* Three million Palestinians are allowed to use 250 million cubic meters per annum (83 cubic meters for each Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 2.0 billion cubic meters (333 cubic meter for each Israeli per year), which means that one Israeli consumes as much water as do four Palestinians. Each Israeli settler is allocated 1,450 cubic meters of water per year.
* The World Health Organization's recognized minimum of domestic water consumption is 100 liters per capita per day. The current domestic water supply for Palestinians is only 57-76 liters per capita per day.

The Main Impacts of the Israeli Siege on Water Supply Sectors in the Palestinian Occupied Territories as of November 4, 2000

* Many towns and villages are suffering from a severe water shortage as a result of closing the Palestinian territories.
* Many villages in the Jenin Governate are suffering from serious water shortage due to the Israeli siege. The Municipality is not able to import needed spare parts for the well pump. Water Tankers cannot reach the villages due to the closure.
* Continuous Israeli settlers' attacks on Palestinian water tankers prevent Palestinian Water Tankers from reaching their water supply source-taps--- which have been cut off by local Isreali settlers who solely own and control the flow of water in the region . Some of the Palestinian villages such as Dier Ibzi and Qabalan are particularily suffering from the cut off of the water supply by the settlers who are protected by the Israeli soldiers. Also, Israeli settlers from Humesh settlement cut off water pipes, which served seven surrounding villages. Many watertankers are obliged to return empty due to the high demand on exhausted source-taps in areas under Palestinian control.
* As a result of the cut-offs, the price of tanked water increased from 2.5 $ per cubic meter to 7.5 $ per cubic meter. As a result of the drastic rise in the price of water, the amount of income spent per family on water has increased by 12%, making it more difficult for families to meet their basic domestic and vital needs.
* There have been well pumps shut off because of fuel scarcity.
* Israeli soldiers have targeted water roof tanks of Palestinian houses near Israeli checkpoints.
* Israeli helicopters bombarded the water well in Mawasi area in Gaza.

Under the conditions incurred by the siege, civilians in the occupied territories are suffering from lack of access to necessary resources, necessary for even the maintenance of their daily needs and basic health. We have reached a state of emergency in the water sector in the Occupied Territories. We must call for an immediate end to the siege upon the water sector.

[Tom Joad]

27. Palestine: settlers cut water supply

From IRC
Access to safe and adequate water is recognised as one of the most fundamental of human needs. The development of sustainable capacities to meet these needs in developing countries is one of the key challenges for the water sector as a whole.

Since its foundation in 1968, the IRC International Water and Sanitation Centre (IRC) has facilitated the sharing, promotion and use of knowledge so that governments, professionals and organisations can better support poor men, women and children in developing countries to obtain water and sanitation services they will use and maintain.


http://www.irc.nl/page/13127
Palestine, Israel: settlers cut water supply
Halmish settlers are stopping supply of water to Bani Zeid Algharbyh with a population of about 10,000. The communities here are supplied with water through the Mekorot Company from a main line that comes from the nearby Halmish settlement. The supplied quantity is completely controlled by the Halmish settlement residents through the valve on the water line. The company opened the valve, but immediately after technicians left the place, settlers closed it again. The building of the wall aggravates the water conflict. According to Abdel Rahman Tamimi, director of the Palestinian Hydrology Group (PHG) for Water and Environment Resources Development, the wall has so far resulted in the confiscation of 36 ground water wells, a total loss of 6.7 million cubic meters of water per year. A 35,000 metre-long drip irrigation network has fallen under Israeli control. Gidon Bromberg, Israel director of Friends of the Earth Middle East (FoEME) blames both governments who fail to show greater public leadership on water issues.

[Tom Joad]

29. Settlers suspected of well attack

Israeli police suspect Jewish settlers of poisoning the only water source in a Palestinian village in the West Bank.

Residents of Tatwana near Hebron found rotting chicken carcases in their well after four Jewish settlers were seen in the village early on Tuesday morning.

Israeli police said they suspected militant Jews from a nearby wildcat settlement outpost called Havat Maon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3891531.stm

[Jim Sagle]

31. If it weren't for Israel, the Palestinians wouldn't HAVE a water supply.

But hey, you all knew that.

This thread ain't nuthin' but shit. And you all knew that as well.

[Tom Joad]

32. Sagle, there is no basis for your assertion.

Would you care to site the basis for that assertion that without resorting to the usual profanities?

Palestinians have lived and cultivated on that land for hundreds of years. They did this without a water supply? How is that?

[Coastie for Truth]

33. I am not a CivE - (chem e)

but I occasionally thumb through their mags in the library -- most of the irrigation and desalination work, especially with respect to arid areas, comes from the US and Israel.

But I'm only a crude injunear.

[Englander]

41. Y'don't say?

--But I'm only a crude injunear.--

[Violet_Crumble]

43. There was water and agriculture in Palestine for centuries...

I'm finding these attitudes where people appear to believe there was no water supplies in Palestine prior to the arrival of Zionists in the early 20th century to be just a tad on the racist side in that old-fashioned 19th century sort of way where the only civilisation that existed was that of Europeans...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

44. Violet

I stated "I occasionally thumb through their mags in the library -- most of the irrigation and desalination work, especially with respect to arid areas, comes from the US and Israel." (I know - we all have diferent styles of replying to posts).

That was in the context of "agricultural engineering" and "civil engineering" - as in "high tech agriculture".

You will note my append at www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=119563&mesg_id=120316. I do come across the names of M. Mohsen and O. Al-Jayyousi as well as Applied Science University and Cairo University -- and a lot of work comes out of University of the Negev and Technion and University of California at Davis and Arizona.

In the Malthusian world predicted by Kunstler and the Club of Rome - we are going to need that high tech irrigation. Even if Israel disappeared today and the whole of the Mandate was taken over by the PA - they would still need the latest, cutting edge, thinking outside the box agriculture. And saying "NO" is not going to change it.

[Tom Joad]

47. Yes, there is a need for innovative solutions to water problems in the ME

However, the assertion has been made implying that though Palesinians have thrived in their homeland for generations, long before the great influx of Jewish refugees in the 20th century, they had "no water supply".

Can you address that? Do you believe that is true or not?

Can you address the problem of Israeli confiscation of Palestinian water sources?

[Coastie for Truth]

48. They could have "thrived" - relatively

Depending on whose numbers you take, the Arab population of Palestine was 400,000 - 600,000 before WWI. With "state of the art" 1900 era technology - there was adequate water for 600,000.

But the 1900 era technology is wholly inadequate to support a population of 8M - 10M.

BTW - there is a rather interesting area of knowledge - a mix of archeology, engineering, and history of technology (my cousin has been teaching in that department for about 30 years at a Midwestern university). He has said that the Muslim Mediterranean littoral was the "center" of irrigation science and technology for his period of interest (15-18 Century).

[Tom Joad]

49. So you acknowledge that there was a water supply.

The water sources they had adequately served their needs at that time. You even acknowledge that there was a Palestinian presence in the region. I know, coastie, you have never said otherwise, but it has been denied elsewhere.

I have no doubt, given the opportunity, there would be adequate water in the West Bank if it were not for confiscation of water by those that are illegally occupying the land. No one here can seriously suggest that the Palestinians lack the knowledge/skills to make that happen.

No one seems to be directly defending the Israeli military confiscating Palestinian water supplies (although several on this thread have implied it to be a crime) , and perhaps that is a good sign too.

[Coastie for Truth]

50. Let's put this in context

The water sources they had adequately served their needs at that time. You even acknowledge that there was a Palestinian presence in the region. I know, coastie, you have never said otherwise, but it has been denied elsewhere.

I acknowledge both. I am not the elected spokesman, or authorized agent for those who say otherwise

I have no doubt, given the opportunity, there would be adequate water in the West Bank if it were not for confiscation of water by those that are illegally occupying the land. No one here can seriously suggest that the Palestinians lack the knowledge/skills to make that happen.

There could be adequate water for all of the inhabitants - Israeli and Palestinian if the best available technology and water management was applied rigoroulsy. The Jordanians, Israelis, Egyptians, Californians, Oklahomans, and Arizonans can do it - the Palestinians engineers I have worked with are talented people. There is no reason why they can't. Reynolds numbers, Prandtl Numbers, and Nusselt Numbers, and the Continuity Equations and the Bernoulli Balance translate very nicely into Arabic - as many Arab engineers I have worked with have demonstrated.

No one seems to be directly defending the Israeli military confiscating Palestinian water supplies (although several on this thread have implied it to be a crime) , and perhaps that is a good sign too.

I have always called for a massive Marshal Program for the Palestinians --- not a Treaty of Versailles punishment on the Israelis (which backfired horribly on the Germans) --- to be funded by the geo-political cartographers of the Ottoman Empire after WWI and the Oil Princelings. And my comments about the contributions of the Oil Princelings have always made direct or indirect reference to Nicholas II and Yekaterinburg.

[Tom Joad]

51. I pretty much agree....

The first two points I almost agree with. Though imperial powers had a part in creating the mess, we should recognize what Israel has done. Great Britian is not demolishing homes or confiscating water, it is the Israeli govt. To blame those imperial powers, like Britian, for what is now happening in Israel now is like blaming France for what Bush is doing, because they aided our revolution 230 years ago.

I do agree also that we should not seek to punish the Israeli people, although individuals who commit war crimes should know they can be held accountable. I don't support collective punishment. after the end of occupation and a just solution, including allowing the return of refugees, there should be a truth/reconciliation commission, much like the South Africa model.

That is in the future. Now, however, we must demand that the Israeli government stop policies that harm the Palestinian people, including water confiscation and home demolitions, and Wall building on Palestinian land and.... This must stop NOW. Not doing so is harmful to the whole population of Israel/Palestine. Sending military aid to from the US is enabling this crime, making the situation worse... it must stop.

[Coastie for Truth]

52. Bad Analogy

Though imperial powers had a part in creating the mess, we should recognize what Israel has done. Great Britian is not demolishing homes or confiscating water, it is the Israeli govt. To blame those imperial powers, like Britian, for what is now happening in Israel now is like blaming France for what Bush is doing, because they aided our revolution 230 years ago.

Great Britain may not be demolishing homes of seizing water today - but whether it was India-Pakistan (my thesis adviser was an Indian Muslim, and my last boss before I "retired" ( ;) ) was an Indian Hindu) or Francophone-Anglophone Canada (I worked in Quebec and Saskatchewan) or apartheid riven South Africa - or even the US -- the British have really done a poor job handling multi-ethnic colonies.

I am quite fond of quoting William Engdahl and John Keay - and dredging up the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The whole purpose -- and foreseeable consequence --- of Sykes-Picot was a level of "tribal warfare" on the Mediterranean Eastern Littoral. Classical late nineteenth century power politics. You can put any reason on it that you want -
* Keep another power from threatening Suez,
* Access to (Saudi, Iraqi, Iranian) oil,
* Reward WW I allies (Hashemite familiess, Saudis, Zionists)
* Protect East African colonies
* Protect access to South Africa
* Protect access to India.
* Whatever.
Whatever the reason - the effect has been to leave the area from the shores of the Mediterranean to Bangladesh a tinderbox. And the WWI victors were not innocent.

And the White Paper -- and Ernest Bevin's blockade and DP Camps (in the face of resurgent pogroms in liberated eastern Europe) were unconscionable -- morally less justifiable then anything the Israelis have done (Notice - I did not say "are alleged ..."). So, clearly the post WW I cartographers can not walk away unscathed.

I do agree also that we should not seek to punish the Israeli people, although individuals who commit war crimes should know they can be held accountable. I don't support collective punishment. after the end of occupation and a just solution, including allowing the return of refugees, there should be a truth/reconciliation commission, much like the South Africa model.

Change it to "just and fair compensation" (with British, French, and oil princelings participation) -- and I am NOT making a demand for compensation for the Sephardi/Mizrachi Jews Indigenous to the Middle east and North Africa.

Allowing the refugees to return means a bi-national single state. Unless you are Oscar Schindler or Chiune Sugihara and most definitely NOT Breckenridge Long or Ernest Bevin -- don't go there. That even turns off a large fraction of assimilated, non-Zionist or Anti-Zionist Jewish people. It's totally emotional and visceral - we all live with an unconscious fear of pogroms and Crusades and Holocausts.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Coastie...

You made yr comment in reply to someone who was replying to a post that made the pretty stupid comment 'If it weren't for Israel, the Palestinians wouldn't HAVE a water supply'.

Do you or don't you think that Israel taking the water resources of the West Bank is wrong?


Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

57. What do you visualize water as?

1. In pools or chambers surrounded by impervious geology - or maybe as macro rivers?

2. In a porous geology where the water flows through a porous media.

Look up "Ground Water Hydrology." At macro level the ground water is in a porous geology where the water flows through a porous media. It is not slant drilling.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Usually the stuff that fills up the swimming pool & keeps the lawn green

Sometimes, but very rarely, it even arrives in the form of rain and even more rarely it falls in catchment areas...

Coastie, my question was very easy: Do you or don't you think that Israel taking the water resources of the West Bank is wrong?

Why are you talking about geology and macro stuff when the issue is that an occupying military power is taking the resources of the occupied territory? Are you saying that if the occupier uses you beaut technology that the occupied people might not have used, then the occupier deserves to take those resources? I hope not, coz then you'd be arguing that Indonesia and Australia had every right to plunder the oil resources in the Timor Sea that belonged to the East Timorese...


Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

61. Percolating (underground) water is a unique legal regime.

I would commend to your attention "An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact" by Anthony M. Evans - a good, serious read (about the leve of a Scientific American article) about "ground water"

Percolating waters are the "commons" - like wild animals and wild birds.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Sure, just like the settlements are?

Here's some things that I would commend to yr attention:

Yr claim that ground water is not really owned by anyone is complete rubbish:

Where groundwater is concerned the major issues that need to be covered are (Caponera,1992):

• its legal status, in other words its ownership,
  
• the protection against depletion, or the control of extraction and use,
  
• and finally the protection against pollution.
  

Public ownership or a State controlled regime of water resources in general, and groundwaterin particular, gives the State authorities, or the government a large extent to regulate water use and allocation. On the contrary, in a private ownership regime, the government has a limitedextent in regulating groundwater extraction, and ultimately resource allocation.

http://www.ipcri.org/watconf/papers/raya.pdf

And this paper points out that the problem isn't so much a shortage of water but of inequitable distribution...

In reality, the water crisis is not chiefly one of insufficient supply, but of uneven and unequitable distribution.

Furthermore, Palestinians are prevented from fully utilizing the West Bank's underground water resources. Permission for well-drilling must be obtained from the military authorities; permits have been granted for only 23 wells since 1967, only three of these being for agricultural use (The Water Commission 1993). Rigorous water quotas are imposed on Palestinians, supply is often restricted leaving communities without water for considerable periods, and excess pumping is punished by heavy fines.

In addition, Palestinians are forced to pay extortionate rates for their water supply. Whereas settlers pay $0.40 for domestic consumption and a highly subsidized rate of $0.16 for agricultural use, Palestinians pay a standard rate of $1.20 for their piped water (Zarour and Isaac 1991). And 26% of West Bank households have no connection to piped water (Isaac et al 1994). Estimates vary as to what proportion of the West Bank's aquifers are exploited by Israelis, as Table er that was still not being exploited in 1967". This argument is, to say the least, rather spurious. The claim is invalidated by the illegality of the occupation. And it is simply false to say that "Israel has honored prior use rights of Palestinians": the military authorities have expropriated wells belonging to absentee owners, as well as those within the boundaries of confiscated Palestinian land. The sometimes-invoked argument that Israel merely inherited water resources that had been under British Mandate control, meanwhile, is simply untrue. Palestinians, as the indigenous inhabitants of the region, are the party with historical prior use rights.


Israel is also keen to emphasize the economic and social damage it would suffer if its water allocation were reduced, a claim that invokes factor above. The size of Israel's population (factor ) is often cited as a corollary to this point. The common implication is that the populations of Israel's co-riparians have only minimal economic and social needs. Meir Ben-Meir states most generously that "Israel will not irrigate cotton and let Palestinian children die from thirst" (quoted in Stutz 1994): implicit in this statement is the assumption that Palestinians only have personal, minimal water needs. On the contrary, Palestinians need water to build industry and agriculture, to build a modern Palestine that is worth building.

http://www.arij.org/pub/corissues/

More here:

According to recommended standards of the World Health Organization (WHO) and the U.S Agency for International Development (USAID), a minimum of 100 liters a day per capita are needed for balanced and healthy domestic consumption in rural households. In contrast, B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, documents that Israeli per capita consumption of water already reaches 350 l/day, about five-times Palestinian consumption. Per capita consumption of water in Israeli settlements, most of which are strategically located directly above main water extraction sources, can reach even higher levels, estimated at “seven-fold” the Palestinian consumption rate. In contrast, Palestinian consumption rates per capita vary between 35-80 l/c/d , well below WHO and USAID recommendations, and in some communities, water consumption can dip to as low as 7 l/c/d under certain conditions.

http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/water_policy_maher.html

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

63. Thanks for misquoting and twisting--

I said " Percolating (underground) water is a unique legal regime. ... ...Percolating waters are the "commons" - like wild animals and wild birds." which is far, far different then "Yr claim that ground water is not really owned by anyone is complete rubbish".

You also may want to peruse the "The legal status of Israeli riparian practices" in Dr. Isaac's paper.

While I haven't completely digested Dr. Isaac's paper, I do disagree with his dismissal of

The development of large-scale water projects has frequently been advocated by those who hold that there is an insufficient supply of water in the Jordan basin and western aquifers of Palestine and Israel. Many fantastic and creative schemes have been proposed for the enhancement of water supply, most notably the following:

* Large-scale desalinization projects, often linked with hydro-electric power generation: o Red Sea-Dead Sea conduit

o Mediterranean-Dead Sea conduit

It is a 1994 era paper -- and dialysis and phoresis technology has not been static for twelve years. (Dialysis and phoresis tools and technology are key to many NEW manufacturing proceses, therapies, and fuel cells - not static fields). While "Large-scale desalinization projects, often linked with hydro-electric power generation" may have been less feasible twelve years ago - they certainly appear more feasible today.

PS - Do all you want with "Dialysis and phoresis" - I studied in that area with John O'M Bockris who was at Flinders for many years.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Go thank someone else who actually did that...

You said 'like wild animals and wild birds'. They aren't really owned by anyone, unlike water supplies. In fact, I gave you a link to some information on state control of water resources, which you appear to have totally ignored, along with ignoring that a military occupation does not give the occupying power some sort of legal right to exploit the water resources of the occupied territory.


Public ownership or a State controlled regime of water resources in general, and groundwaterin particular, gives the State authorities, or the government a large extent to regulate water use and allocation. On the contrary, in a private ownership regime, the government has a limitedextent in regulating groundwater extraction, and ultimately resource allocation.

http://www.ipcri.org/watconf/papers/raya.pdf

As you've not bothered answering my question: 'Do you or don't you think that Israel taking the water resources of the West Bank is wrong?', I'll take it that you do support it...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

69. You may be assuming wrong--

You posted "As you've not bothered answering my question: 'Do you or don't you think that Israel taking the water resources of the West Bank is wrong?', I'll take it that you do support it...".

I am just questioning apparent Luddite and technophobe assumptions that becloud the real issue of augmenting the regional water supply necessary to support the total population.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. I doubt that very much...

Of course yr free to correct me if I'm wrong...

Sorry, but the real issue is the exploitation of water resources by an occupying power. You've not said anything in this thread that's convincing me of anything but a desire to talk about anything else but the exploitation of the water resources in the West Bank...

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

71. Start here

1. "The Long Emergency: Surviving the Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-First Century" by James Howard Kunstler

2. "An Introduction to Economic Geology and Its Environmental Impact" by Anthony M. Evans

3. "Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict" by the Author by Michael T. Klare

[Violet_Crumble]

72. No thanks. None of them have anything to do with what's being discussed...

I'm not all that fond of going off on tangents, especially when it looks as though those tangents are being deliberately pursued by some in an attempt not to discuss the issue....

Violet...

[Tom Joad]

45. It's not racist, it's a miracle!

Violet, think of the implications. To imply that Palestinians had survived without water is to do what no civilazation has done before.

But Sagle is suggesting that Palstinians went for centuries without water supplies. living in California where water is always a problem (well, not this month, but most of the time) it would have tremendous value if we could learn this secret of how the Palestinians not only survived but flourished for centuries without water, and yet had groves of olive trees, and food enough for all.

course, the other possibility is that Sagle is not very accurate in his assertion. Just a possibility, mind you.

[bemildred]

34. The Jews of Iraq

by Naeim Giladi

---

And I began to find out about the barbaric methods used to rid the fledgling state of as many Palestinians as possible. The world recoils today at the thought of bacteriological warfare, but Israel was probably the first to actually use it in the Middle East. In the 1948 war, Jewish forces would empty Arab villages of their populations, often by threats, sometimes by just gunning down a half-dozen unarmed Arabs as examples to the rest. To make sure the Arabs couldn't return to make a fresh life for themselves in these villages, the Israelis put typhus and dysentery bacteria into the water wells.

Uri Mileshtin, an official historian for the Israeli Defense Force, has written and spoken about the use of bacteriological agents. According to Mileshtin, Moshe Dayan, a division commander at the time, gave orders in 1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.

Acre was so situated that it could practically defend itself with one big gun, so the Haganah put bacteria into the spring that fed the town. The spring was called Capri and it ran from the north near a kibbutz. The Haganah put typhus bacteria into the water going to Acre, the people got sick, and the Jewish forces occupied Acre. This worked so well that they sent a Haganah division dressed as Arabs into Gaza, where there were Egyptian forces, and the Egyptians caught them putting two cans of bacteria, typhus and dysentery, into the water supply in wanton disregard of the civilian population. "In war, there is no sentiment," one of the captured Haganah men was quoted as saying.

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

[Coastie for Truth]

35. W. Seth Carrus

"Bioterrorism and Biocrimes - The Illicit Use of Biological Agents Since 1900" asserts that this typhus legend is uncorroborated and doubtful.

[bemildred]

36. One fellows word against another.

I can't say I find this allegation that convincing, this fellow has a book to sell, after all. But in the light of the allegation that the Palestinians would not have water if not for the Israelis, it seemed fitting.

[Coastie for Truth]

37. I expected better of a Progressive DUer.

:-( :-( :-(

[bemildred]

38. I guess I'll have to try to go on living, somehow ...

But seriously, I don't expect much here, neither should you.

[Englander]

40. Which page?

I've got the report you mention, on which page does Carrus say that?

Here's the mention of the incidents in the report, page 87, pdf file;

Case 1947-01: “Zionist” terrorists, 1947-1948
On July 22, 1948, the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee submitted a thirteen-page report to the
United Nations accusing Palestinian Jews of using biological agents against Egypt and Syria. According to the
document, “For several years the Zionists have planned and prepared for the use of bacterial warfare. To that
end, they set up laboratories in Palestine. The Jews plan to use this inhuman weapon against the Arabs in the
Middle East in their war of extermination.” The report contended that there was “some” evidence to link
Palestinian Jews to cholera outbreaks in Egypt in November, 1947, and in Syria “about February, 1948.”419
In addition, the report noted that on May 28, 1948, the Egyptian Ministry of Defense issued a
communiqué claiming that the Egyptian military had captured four “Zionists” who were attempting to
contaminate wells around Gaza with “a liquid which was discovered to contain the germs of dysentery and
typhoid.” The Palestinian Arab Higher Committee Report claimed that one of the perpetrators confessed to the
plot, which the Egyptian government planned to communicate to the International Red Cross. 420 According to
another source, two Israeli soldiers were involved in the plot: David Horeen and David Mizrachi. Both were
caught by Egyptian forces in May 1948, and were hanged three months later. This account indicates that to
Rachel Katzman, Horeen’s sister, said, “I met one of his commanders in a lecture in Jerusalem. I asked him
whether my brother had really attempted to poison wells. ‘These were the weapons we had,’ he said, ‘and
that’s that.” This account also claims that the Israelis poisoned the water supply of the Arab town of Acre,
causing a major outbreak, and other Arab villages, to prevent the villagers from returning, citing military
historian Uri Milstein as a source.421
The cholera outbreaks in Syria and Egypt received extensive attention in the international press. The
first reports of the Egyptian outbreak date appeared on September 25, 1947.422 By the time the final cases
appeared in January 1948, 10,262 people died, about half of those contracting the disease. At the time,
Egyptian health officials told the World Health Organization that the disease reached Egypt from India, which
had suffered a massive outbreak the previous summer.423

http://www.ndu.edu/centercounter/Full_Doc.pdf

_____________

More mentions;

Israel and Chemical/Biological Weapons:
History, Deterrence, and Arms Control
by Avner Cohen;

page 5, pdf file;

Tight secrecy characterized all matters related to
HEMED BEIT, and the biological unit was insulated from
all other HEMED units. To this day, there is no public
record of HEMED BEIT’s operations during the 1948
war—indeed, all archival material relating to the unit is
classified and unavailable to scholars—and Israeli historians
have not shown any great interest in exploring this
subject. Still, rumors about secret BW operations in Palestinian
villages and towns have persisted for years.29 Dr.
Uri Milstein, an iconoclastic Israeli military historian, maintains,
“in many conquered Arab villages, the water supply
was poisoned to prevent the inhabitants from coming
back.”30
It is believed that one of the largest operations in this
campaign was in the Arab coastal town of Acre, north of
Haifa, shortly before it was conquered by the IDF on May
17, 1948. According to Milstein, the typhoid epidemic that
spread in Acre in the days before the town fell to the Israeli
forces was not the result of wartime chaos but rather
a deliberate covert action by the IDF—the contamination
of Acre’s water supply. Milstein even named the company
commander who was involved in the operation. When
journalist Leibovitz-Dar found this individual in 1993, he
refused to talk. “Why do you look for troubles that took
place forty-five years ago?” he asked. “I know nothing
about this. What would you gain by publishing it. . . .Why
do you need to publish?”31
The success of the Acre operation may have persuaded
Israeli decisionmakers to continue with these activities.32
On May 23, 1948, Egyptian soldiers in the Gaza area
caught four Israeli soldiers disguised as Arabs near water
wells. A statement issued by the Egyptian Ministry of
Defense on May 29 stated that four “Zionists” had been
caught trying to infect artesian wells in Gaza with “a liquid,
which was discovered to contain the germs of dysentery
and typhoid.” According to the Egyptian statement,
a confession had been obtained during interrogation of one
of the captured Israelis, David Horin. He reportedly admitted
that their commander had given them a canteen
filled with dysentery and typhoid bacteria “to be thrown
into the well to kill the Egyptian army.”33 The four Israelis
were put on trial, convicted, and executed by hanging
three months later.34
Israel firmly denied the Egyptian allegations of bacteriological
warfare, calling them a “wicked libel.” The Israeli
government admitted only that the four soldiers were
involved in an intelligence operation aimed at monitoring
military movements and assessing the morale of the Arab
population. In 1993, when Leibovitz-Dar asked the commander
of the Gaza operation whether the soldiers had
been sent to gather intelligence or to complete a BW mission,
he refused to respond. “You will not get answers on
these questions,” he said angrily. “Not from me, and not
from anyone. . . .”35 When Leibovitz-Dar asked former
HEMED chief Colonel Shlomo Gur whether he was aware
of HEMED BEIT’s secret operations during the 1948 War
of Independence, he responded somewhat vaguely, “e
heard about the typhoid epidemics in Acre and about the
Gaza operations. There were many rumors, but I did not
know whether they were true or not.” 36
It seems that many people knew something about these
operations, but both the participants and later historians
chose to avoid the issue, which gradually became a national
taboo. Leibovitz-Dar, in her 1993 article, noted the
great difficulties she faced in getting people to discuss the
history. “Everybody who had something to do with those
activities prefers today to keep silent,” she wrote.
What was done then, with deep conviction and
zealotry, is nowadays concealed with shame.
Among the living, most preferred to keep silent,
meetings were cancelled at the last moment,
phones were hung up when people understood
what was involved. “Not everything we did in
those days requires discussion,” said Ephraim
Katzir.37

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/pgsd/people/staffpubs/Avner-CBWart.pdf

[Englander]

53. Another day, another false claim. n/t

[Lithos]

54. Here is a better accounting

Of what Milstein said. (I've got the books, but it's late and I'm not going to reread Vol IV to find the relevent pieces.)

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:b3IcEbVgjE4J:www.puaf.umd.edu/CISSM/Scholars/Cohen.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Naeim Giladi has a bad set of associations which makes him a bit too biased IMHO to discuss something of this nature.

L-

[bemildred]

56. As I said ...

The truth is that spreading disease as a weapon of war has been popular since antiquity; and that while governments now have the good grace to be embarassed about it, I doubt that any serious players of the war game have given it up as a matter of principle, treaties and such notwithstanding.

It is also worth remembering that it has been difficult to control in many cases, affecting both sides, and of dubious effect in many other cases. It is difficult to imagine, for example, how one could use infectious agents in any widespread way on Palestiians without also causing an unpredictable amount of harm to Israelis.

Lying and exaggerating one's enemy's faults is also popular, even ubiquitious, and deserves to be answered in kind.

I do appreciate your effort in digging that up, it is very interesting, and I will study it with more care later. I can recommend the concluding page or two to those in a hurry.

Edit: spelling

[Tom Joad]

39. Still no one has backed up this foolish assertion.

"That without Israel, there would be no water supply."

The fact that a very wealthy (and populous) nation has built desalination plants does *not* back it up.
These plants were not built in the West Bank, anyway.
More importantly, It does not explain how Palestinians survived generations supposedly without a water supply.
There is still no attention being paid to the central point of the original post. That there is a water grab going on by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people?

I have heard people say that somehow that is what we can expect in a world that misuses its resources, but no specific argument that either a) Israel is taking this water, but it is necessary to do so, because... whatever... or b) Israel has not taken this water, it is sharing equally with the Palestinians (certainly going against all the evidence, but at least it comes close to a reasonable argument.

That military force used against Palestinians in order to force them to flee in 1948 is well documented by both Palestinians and supporters of that policy like Benny Morris. I am not sure about the poisoning of wells at that time was part of that campaign of ethnic cleansing.

But we do not have to go back that far, we have clear evidence of the taking of water, separating water sources from Palestinians right here and now. It should be condemned by all people who want human rights and peace.

[idontwantaname]

46. are you from NY?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x120580#120614

[Coastie for Truth]

58. Interesting Thread at DU Environment/Energy

Sometimes the "techie" fora have some relevance to the "political" fora.

[Tom Joad]

64. Does not excuse the Israel military from taking Palestinian water.

Sometimes the relevance is absent. Sometimes it just serves as a distraction, intended or not.

[Coastie for Truth]

65. Sometimes the relevance is only absent for

those who don't have the benefit of a scientific or technical or engineering background or interest.

In the San Francisco Bay Area we are blessed (truly blessed) with an abundance of technical, scientific, and engineering brainpower, talent, and educational opportunities.

The article was not posted as a distraction but to elucidate the geology and hydrology issues that are completely intertwined with them.

I am what James Howard Kunstler derisively calls a cornucopialist (according to Kunstler - one who believes there is a technical and scientific fix for everything) - I am proud of it.

I would rather see a technical fix then war and terrorism.

[Tom Joad]

66. We in the Bay Area we are blessed by a lack of military occupation!

[Coastie for Truth]

67. Reconquista

Habla espanol?

Si Habla Espanol

Some question both the legality and the US compliance with the Treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo.

[haab]

77. what was that......

"Sometimes the relevance is only absent for those who don't have the benefit of a scientific or technical or engineering background or interest."


After Israel has locked them off into enclaves for 3 generations and denied them all the "blessings" we take for granted here int he US, how can you say they have no interest in "scientific technical & engineering development"...?? They have no educational opportunities and are forced to live in Ghettos and now they are even denied water to enable them to live on their lands...

Shameful..... absolutely shameful....




"Without water, there is no life. Israeli policy has always been to push Palestinians into the desert," he added. (Hind Khury)



I can now understand why Israel always always falsely asserts that Arabs want to push them into the sea.... Because they are pushing the Arabs from their lands, in the most brutal and sadistic manner imaginable... and we all keep silent!

[Coastie for Truth]

78. That is an insult to the fine Iraqi-American and Palestinian-American

students at such truly fine engineering schools as the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, the University of Michigan-Dearborn, Michigan State University, Wayne State University, University of Detroit, Lawrence Technological University, and Oakland University.

Based on my affiliation with , and my work experience with Iraqi-American and Palestinian-American graduates and Iraqi-American and Palestinian-American graduates, and and the many, may Muslim-American engineers and scientists in the automotive and information technology industries, you are sadly misinformed.

My Muslim-American students and colleagues (both in industry and academia) were world class, first class, top notch.

Rather then just complaining you should help a Palestinian-American or Iraqi-American young person get a fine technology education from a fine school -

"Former Adjunct Associate Professor (EE)"

[haab]

79. So the Palestinians deserve no Universities?

Is that what you're asserting..

Israel needs to stop stealing water and land from the Palestinians. Universities need to be build in Palestinian land... Palestinians and Iraqis both deserve a fine education as well, they don't have to become American to suddenly aspire to having a good education...


Give the Palestinians back their rights and dignity and all the violence will end......


How can this land grab and water theft happen in a democratic Israel...??? Do the laws of the land officially support such measures?