For first time, Palestinians fire Katyusha rocket from Gaza

[pelsar]

Katyusha is more powerful rocket than Qassam, placing many more towns within range, including Ashkelon

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/699804.html

________________

they can reach the city of ashkelon


and israels defense against the rockets, which can terrorize far better than the kassams (they didnt count...they were just "spitballs")...should be?

anybody willing to make a list what israel should do?.....

(let me take a wild guess here.....nobody will give a practical realistic answer to stop the kassams, instead, for those willing to even write something, there will be some general statements...that will do nothing to protect the apartment buildings in Ashkelon nor the people within)....and the reason for that is?...anybody?........

[Hobarticus]

1. Sounds like you've got a point you want to make, yourself...

Why not tell us?

[pelsar]

5. all of my ideas.....

unfortunatly are restricted to the limitations of technology today.....so they involved "collective punishment".....usually thats considered a "no no" here...so i though perhaps there are some brighter people reading this that could enlighten me

the alternative being .....let the israelis be terrorized and killed

[idontwantaname]

6. there is no good answer...

to the child of a refugee. who knows what part of I/P his family is from. all he knows is he has nothing better to do than fire rockets at the "folks" who displaced him.

[pelsar]

8. so therefore

let the israelis die.....

[Hobarticus]

10. So therefore, kill some people who have nothing to do with the rockets

Good luck.

[pelsar]

11. any ideas...?

so far as far as i understand your opinon is:

do nothing. and let the israelis get killed as a result of "collective punishment"...or did i misunderstand something

[Hobarticus]

15. Look, I don't have rockets aimed at my home

So it really doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what YOU think. It's your home. You're obviously frustrated and angry....I'm not sure what you're hoping to get, here.

I'd suggest going after the launchers and the source of the rockets, but that's been done before, I'm sure. You're being awfully vague with 'collective punishment'...who are you referring to be 'punished'? The people popping off the rockets, or the people around the area, or the Israelis?

[pelsar]

16. yea i'm pissed...

not so much at the palestenains...for a variety of reasons...I'm more angry at the fact that any response by israel is met with a collective " bad israel, thats illegal" etc etc etc.

so to me unlike the complexity of the westbank...this is pretty "black and white"...the palestenains in gaza govern their own piece of real estate, and instead of doing something about it...they're still trying to kill us

so here is a chance for all of those who complain that what israel does is so bad....a chance to give a suggestion that doesnt hurt their 'moral values" of what israel should do to defend its citizens if anything.....

(i see as do many israelis, gaza as a sort of mini state for the palestenians, if they shoot at us from there...well a katusha from the westbank can easily hit the intl airport.....)

[idontwantaname]

18. hysteria

it seems if the gazans had tanks or nukes or something else i would genuinely be more worried. but a kassam is a big fire cracker and doesnt deserve this level of hysteria or attention.

definitely i thnk there should be some response but a tank shell or air strike in a residential neighborhood or at an icecream truck is not the answer.

[barb162]

55. I think it isn't hysteria at all and if someone were shooting those

things toward me, I wouldn't let anyone tell me what level of fear/ anger, etc I should or shouldn't be experiencing. The fact is at least one of these things is going off a day from Gaza toward Israel the last several months. I also think this is way more serious than sonic booms which for some reason a while back got press time. I don't know if anyone was ever killed by a sonic boom but people can be killed by these rockets.

[Hobarticus]

22. It's interesting to be asked what we would find objectionable

when our foreign policy as of late is pretty much objectionable to most of the planet.

But, here goes: if you can take out the launchers, cleanly and with no civilian casualties, then that's acceptable to my personal moral values.

[pelsar]

24. thats whats being tried...

but there are limitations to technologies....it also requires constant air surveillance over gaza (pilotless vehicles that make noise and are a constant reminder that your being watched)

more so when spotted, set up to launch is a mere few minutes...that mean artillary which is not precise or helicopters constantly flying...also impossible

and decisions made in seconds means human mistakes....wrong coordinates, wrong shells.....civilians killed

____________________________

[Hobarticus]

26. That would be frustrating, indeed...

Nothing like what we experience here in the States. Stay safe.

[barb162]

54. NO WAY!

[barb162]

53. They have Gaza back since Sept and are not displaced now

but that is from where the rockets are fired.

"all he knows is he has nothing better to do"
read a book? do something constructive/ non-violent?

[Hobarticus]

9. "Collective punishment"....yeah, I can see how that wouldn't fly here

Good luck.

[MadisonProgressive]

2. What would you do?

[Dunvegan]

3. It's a mess...that I certainly give you.

No I don't have any ready answers.

But the Middle East is a tinder-pot simmering over a vat of gasoline (or sweet crude oil.)

I can say that the US could use a true lifetime diplomat in service to the UN rather than "Ole-Stir-the-Hot-Pot" Bolton.

[Andromeda]

60. I agree with you there---about Bolton.

[idontwantaname]

4. i think it was in response to this:

Separately, Israeli aircraft fired missiles that landed in empty fields in northern Gaza, and on an empty road in central Gaza, near a power plant, Interior Ministry officials said. No injuries were reported.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395674679&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[pelsar]

7. really?

so then the initially volly of kassams that came flying out of gaza the day the israelis left was because.....

and the almost daily launching (with some lapses) is because......

your "response" that the kassams and katushas is only a response to israels shooting at empty fields doesnt really work very well...its more like a poor excuse...sometimes you just have to open your eyes

[idontwantaname]

12. when was the last time/ how many...

israelis have dies from kassams? just curious?

also my post above about retaliation was sarcastic. sorry.

[pelsar]

19. a child....and one other

a few more wounded....the katushas are far more serious...they pack larger explosives and can reach askelon...high apartment buildings......(not that those who were living under the kassams werent under stress)


its not that this wasnt expected..but the IDF response is limited to todays technologies which are not that precise....and there is the problem

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Collective punishment hasn't worked so far.

[pelsar]

20. unfortuantly...

it does

[The_Casual_Observer]

27. bullshit

If it did, we wouldn't be discussing it now, would we?

[pelsar]

29. it does to a point...

its not a 100% but it sure does reduce the amount of shooting and suicide bombers....

case in point: checkpoints and the wall: all involve massive collective punishment, make matters worse for the palestenians...but have a net reduction in succesuful suicide attempts....

or in iraq for example: falluja, once a central point for attacks upon US troops....no longer

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. They simply move on to the next place and you know it.

The reality is that you can't "win" when the opposition "wins" by taking you with them.

Your "final solution" has no merit.

[pelsar]

40. the solution is a temp fix

and it does work....at one point my kids werent allowed to go to malls, their summer camp had more security than an army base...today with the checkpoints and wall and massive collective punishement, life for the israeli child is free again.

i'm not arguing the morality here, but it obvious that collective punishment does work

[Violet_Crumble]

56. So the Hudna had nothing to do with it?

n/t

[pelsar]

64. oh it sure did.....

hudnas come after the attacking arab group gets battered and requests a "breather".......which is a direct result of israeli retailiation which also involves collective punishement.

without that "colllective punishment" there would be no reason for any 'hudna"...now would there?

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Here's a thought...

This has been a long breather, hasn't it? I read that Hamas had talked about an 100 year hudna but Israel knocked them back.


Anyway, I'm finding yr support of collective punishment, which I'm sure you only support when it comes to the Palestinians and not Israelis, to be pretty disgusting...

And pelsar, let's be fair here. Without the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the continued building of settlements and stealing of land from the Palestinian people, there'd have been no need for any violence at all.

Violet...

[pelsar]

68. yes lets be fair.....

israel didnt occupy the westbank pre 67...and there was plenty of attacks upon israelis...

funny how thats always forgotten about


there may have "not been the need" for violence, but there was plenty of it and according to Fatah, with good reason

__________________

and the long breather?...when was that, i dont recall when the missles, mortors actually stopped falling.....

and Hamas offered a 100yr hudna...(you do know the meaning of hudna correct?..."stop shooting at me, while i regroup and attack when i am better prepared"

collective punishment?....if you can get to the individuals within some reason....then there is no need for it. If its impossible than there is little choice.....but in fact i have no problem with collectiving punishing settlements, such as the ones that were evacuated by the israeli security forces

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Many of those 'attacks' on Israelis...

were farmers trying to get back to their land in what is now Israel. funny how that's always forgotten about and also how Israeli violence gets totally ignored...

Sorry? When has Hamas been launching missiles?? A hudna is a truce, not yr loaded 'translation'. And if 100 years wasn't good enough for Israel, then I think Israel isn't as interested in the safety of Israeli civilians as it claims it is...

On the subject of collectively punishing settlers, removing settlers from illegal settlements isn't collective punishment in any way, shape or form. Though I'm very impressed at the collective punishment the settlers of Hebron received after Baruch Goldstein massacred Palestinians in a mosque. Imposing a curfew on the Palestinians while allowing the settlers to run free really showed those settlers a thing or two!!

Violet...

[pelsar]

74. what happened to honesty?

pre 67?..i believe you mentioned that the war is about borders and that all israel has to do is go back to the 67 borders...correct?

and now in the post your saying that some of those attacks on pre 67 israel were "farmers trying to get back their land".....Farmers?.....what happended to Fatah?...and what were the other attacks?...what were they about?

and if you believe the its all about borders...perhaps you could explain why hizballa is still attacking israel up north?...or why those in gaza are sill attacking?.....those are pre67 borders are they not?

Hunda?..you should brush up on your knowledge of arabic.....

as far as collective punishment goes...its has its uses and misuses. I'm hardly an advocate of Hebron..but then I"m also not an advocate of curfues either..but i'm also an advocate of defending my family and friends and not sitting around and waiting to be killed which is the preference of many here....

since alternatives that actually work have not been suggested...not one.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. What happened to Israeli attacks pre-67?

I mentioned those and you totally ignored them. Guess that sort of thing gets in the way of trying to portray Israel as being the victim that never does anything wrong, doesn't it? Qibya's been mentioned a few times in this forum. That attack on innocent civilians was terrorism, pelsar...

Why is it that you are insisting that the Palestinians must respect the 1967 borders when Israel doesn't? It's Israel that's occupying Palestinian territory, and it's Israel that has continued to build settlements in the West Bank which it refuses to dismantle...

Hudna? If that pissweak attempt at a translation was yr idea of a definition of the word, then it's you who needs to learn some basic Arabic...

There hasn't been anyone here who has said or even hinted that their preference is Israelis should just sit around and wait to be killed. Just the same as no-one here but you goes on about 'evil Israelis'...

I sure haven't seen you suggest anything that'd work, that's for sure...

Violet...

[eyl]

80. The first attack by Fatah

- in 1964 - was an attempt to blow up Israel's Water Carrier (the pipeline that transports water from the Kinneret to the rest of the country). There were also various shootings of buses and apartments (plus some other types of attacks). How does that constitute "farmers trying to get back to their land"?

And Hamas has been periodically launching Kassams (not to mention one kidnap-murder) throughout the last year.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. And when did Qibya happen, eyl?

I said many of what Israel claimed were terrorists trying to infiltrate Israel was actually farmers displaced from their lands and crops trying to get back to them. Surely you aren't disputing that happened a lot?

Has Hamas claimed responsibility for these recent attacks or is it Israel saying that Hamas did it?

Violet...

[pelsar]

83. it was you violet that wrote:

let's be fair here. Without the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the continued building of settlements and stealing of land from the Palestinian people, there'd have been no need for any violence at all.

i understood that to mean that if israel goes back to 67 borders...the palestenains will no longer attack as they will have no reason to.

did i misunderstand something?

[eyl]

86. Qibya happened in 1953

But that's a case in point - the raid was retaliation for Arab attacks. From the Wikipedia page on Qibya:

The attack was the result of escalating border clashes which had begun almost immediately after the signing of the armistice in 1949. The state of Israel was confronted by a wave of Palestinian infiltrations. The Jordanian Arab Legion proved unwilling or unable to stop many infiltrations. In 1951, 137 Israelis, mostly civilians, were killed by such infiltrators. The following year, the death toll was 162. In 1953, 160 Israelis were killed.

On October 12, 1953, an unarmed Jewish mother and her two children were killed in a raid by Jordanian infiltrators in the Israeli town of Yahud. The Israeli government decided to carry out a retaliatory operation against the village of Qibya in the West Bank.

I have no idea how many people were "farmers trying to get to their land" - and it's besides the point, which is that terrorism well preceded the conquest of the Territories in 1967.

Has Hamas claimed responsibility for these recent attacks or is it Israel saying that Hamas did it?

Some of case A and some of case B. I gave some examples where Hamas claimed responsibility in this thread (post #20).

[Englander]

87. So, the massacre was justified, is that yer point?

Qibya was a massacre, the village was destroyed, if one is going to, appartently,
justify such attacks, then the details should be known. Personally, I can't see
how the destruction of a village, & the murder of 60+ innocents could be, or should
be, justified, but that's just me, I guess.

'Security Council

S/636/Rev.1
16 November 1953

>snip

25. During the night of 14-15 October 1953, a force of about 300 well trained Israeli -soldiers, accompanied by a demolition engineering squadron, crossed into Jordan territory and carried out a well-planned attack against the village of Qibya. The assailants were uniformly described by witnesses as Israelis in military uniform with full equipment.

26. These Israeli soldiers carried out their offensive action with the use of standard Israeli army equip-ment, such as Bangalore torpedoes to blast pathways through barbed wire; they used at least seventy demolition bombs, a number of incendiary bombs, and two-inch mortars against the village of Qibya. Numerous previous complaints have proved that this equipment was used only by military forces. Let us refer to what General Bennike says in his report <630th meeting, para. 26>, when he quotes commander Hutchison's report:

"The evidence noted indicated that this raid was well planned and carried out by men expertly trained in the fundamentals of sudden and sustained attack. It seems highly improbable that other than active military forces could have carried out this raid without suffering heavy casualties from their own fire, or from the explosions of their demolition charges."

27. To cover the withdrawal of these Israeli armed forces other Israeli support troops -began shelling the neighboring villages of Budrus and Shuqba, damaging a number of houses.

28. The Israelis immediately claimed that they had victoriously carried out a mission of retaliation against Qibya. All occupants of dwellings had been murdered at, close range. In all, there were sixty-six innocent victims, most of them women and children; forty houses, the village 'school, the mosque, the water reservoir, had been razed to the ground and one more, Jordanian village rendered uninhabitable.

29. The horror of the Israeli troop action at Qibya could be reported with many more elaborate details taken from evidence verified by neutral observers of the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization. But perhaps more important is the fact that this accumulated evidence has paralyzed the desperate efforts of Israeli leaders to escape their official respon-sibility and throw the blame on some irresponsible Israeli villagers.

>snip

32. The Qibya massacre has -been described and condemned by most leading newspapers and reviews, by ranking political leaders, and by religious beads all over the world. In order not to lengthen this exposition by too many quotations, I will limit myself to two. Ti4im magazine of 26 October 1953 describes the incident in these terms:

"At 9.30 one night, most of the people were just going to bed in the Jordanian village of Qibya . . . a mile and a half beyond the Israeli frontier ... On this quiet night, as usual, everyone put his trust in the U.N. 'truce' and 30 skimpily armed Jordanian national guardsmen. Suddenly, Israeli artillery, previously zeroed onto target, opened tip, and a 600-man battallion of uniformed Israeli regulars swept across the border to encircle the village. For the next 2 and half hours the town shuddered under shell bursts and smallarms fire; villagers, screaming and milling, rushed out to the surrounding fields and olive groves.

"Then the guardsmen's ammo (25 rounds per man) gave out, and the Israelis moved into Qibya with rifle and Sten guns. They shot every man, woman and child they could find, then turned-their fire on the cattle. After that they dynamited 42 houses, a school and a mosque. The cries of the dying could be heard amid the explosions. The villagers huddled in the grass could see Israeli soldiers slouching in the doorways of their homes, smoking and joking, their young faces illuminated by the flames. By 3 a.m., the Israelis' work was done ... Sixty-six died that night ... It was the bloodiest night of border warfare since the 1949 armistice ... In the slaughter of Qibya, Israel made peace harder than ever to attain."

33. The New York Times of 6 November 1953 reported that "The Archbishop of York ... spokesman for the Church of England.. . condemned Israel for the cruel massacre of Arab men, women and children in the Jordanian ... village of Qibya ... He said
there was 'little doubt' that the raid on Qibya had been carried out by the regular forces of Israel and was not a raid by 'a few irresponsible terrorists'. 'For many months past,' Dr. Garbett continued, there have been acts of violence ... but this in its calculated horror is different in degree. It is well that the State of Israel should realize the disquiet and indignation caused on both sides of the Atlantic by this brutal act ... He added that unless 'some strong line' were adopted the Middle East would find itself 'ablaze"'.

34. Indeed the massacres of Qibya, organized and carried out by Israeli official forces, are not an isolated incident. This is the culminating point of the practice constantly used by the Israelis of achieving their ambitions by ruthless methods and later rejecting all responsibility for the consequences, while continuing to play the part of the victim. It would be impossible to relate here all the attacks by Israeli armed forces on Jordan since 1948 since they are much too numerous. I shall content myself with mentioning some of the most recent Israeli aggressions which have taken place in 1953.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/62c13fb98d54fe240525672700581383/6bd4ecb150d067a5052567240073c87f!OpenDocument

[pelsar]

92. no the point is:

as violet claims:

let's be fair here. Without the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the continued building of settlements and stealing of land from the Palestinian people, there'd have been no need for any violence at all....

which is obviously not true.....since the attackes upon israel and israeli attacks are previous to the 67 borders......the year 1967 has no significance upon the attitude of the various arab nations toward israel, and returning to such borders, as is evident from Lebanon and Gaza, will change nothing.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Are you claiming the Palestinians hadn't lost land prior to 67???

btw, the post englander was replying to did appear to me to be justifying Qibya. In which case, I think it's important to point out that just the same as when Palestinian groups have tried to justify attacks on Israeli civilians, attempts to justify attacks on Palestinian and/or Jordanian civilians are just as unjustifiable...

Violet...

[pelsar]

101. im not justifying anything....

i'm attempting to clarify a point:

you mentioned that if israel pulls back to 67 there no longer is a reason for the violence......and as i understand it, there is more than enough reason for the attacks to continue.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. Good...

So I take it that you are someone who doesn't believe that the Palestinians dropped their claims to what is now Israel over the past few decades?

Violet...

[pelsar]

104. which group?

are you talking about?

Hamas, PA, islamic jihad? muslim brotherhood?, who controls the education network/media today and what will they be teaching tomorrow?....

i will believe that the "palestenians" have accepted israel when i see palestenian TV interviewing israelis, when Palestenain radio goes to a checkpoint and asks an IDF soldier how he feels......and the interviewer mentions that they too are human and in fact just kids.

when an israeli politician is invited to Palestenain talk show to argue the various points...yes then i will know that israelis as israelis are accepted by the palesteanins as a part of the landscape.

in the meantime, palestenains know israeli TV hosts by their first name, are on israeli radio whenever something happens....but never the opposite and the bottom line is that...israelis as people are not part of the accepted landscape in the palestenains nor the arab world.

those are actual signs that things have changed, a politician talking means nothing,....when things change "on the ground"...yea reality again"...then i and many others like me will have a change in attitude.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. The PLO...

those are actual signs that things have changed, a politician talking means nothing,....when things change "on the ground"...

I see. So that only applies to the Palestinians and not to successive Israeli govts? Because in case you haven't noticed, Israeli govts have been masters of talking the talk and the opposite of what they're saying happening on the ground...

Violet...

[pelsar]

109. the PLO....

except that the HAMAs now runs the palestenains...and if you really read what i wrote you will notice i mentioned specifically that i dont trust politicians...and was interested in the people meeting each other via the media.

having the palesteanins actually talk to israelis, see israelis on their talk show will actually negate the official "israeli is bad, jew is bad" that appears on their TV. Having forums where israelis actually lecture in the palestenain universities will be default lead to further acceptance...etc etc etc

thats what i wrote about...and thats what the reaction should be to.

[eyl]

107. No, Violet

No effort at justification was involved. The point of post in question is that that since Qibya was a retaliatory raid, there were - by definition - attacks on Israel prior to the raid - hence, terrorism did not start in 1967, nor did pre-67 terrorism solely (or even largely) consist of "farmers trying to get back to their land which Israel called terrorism".

[Violet_Crumble]

108. It wasn't a retaliatory raid - it was terrorism..

The retaliation thing is used by Palestinian groups who carry out suicide bombings to justify their attacks on civilians. The same thing goes for the massacre of civilians at Qibya. Along the same lines, any attacks on Israel prior to the raid were merely relataliatory raids...

Violet...

[eyl]

111. I'm not going to run down this sidetrack

When it was pointed out terrorism preceded 1967, you claimed those were just "farmers trying to get back to their land", something which Israel "called" terrorism. As I pointed out, the rationale behind the Qibya raid - which you first brought up, for some reason (as well as the Wikipedia page on it) showed that there were numerous fatal (i.e. violent) attacks on Israelis prior to it and therefore prior to 1967 (since 1953<1967). What Qibya was is completely irrelevent to the question at hand.

[Englander]

99. What do you think about Qibya?

Since my post was exclusively about that massacre, any comments that don't
address that, & this apparent attempt to justify it, are relevant, are they?

[barb162]

96. Whenever this "look what the ---- did X years ago" stuff

starts up, should the opposing posters dig up an atrocity from 10 years prior showing what the other side did?

[Englander]

98. No, just provide the details.

Provide, if the incident was a massacre, the details of what occured, & contemporary
comment, of how the International Community was appalled by this murder of innocents,
& the destruction of a village. If the massacre wasn't, imo, being justified, then I
wouldn't have mentioned the details. Since it was, imo, I think all the details of
the massacre should be posted, so that everyone's aware of what it is, that's being
justified.

[barb162]

115. but then it becomes a tit for tat atrocity "contest" and for what?

And as for the "International Community" being appalled about anything, look at how today not too many are appalled by atrocities in Africa, such as Darfur

Hypocritical Arab generosity on Darfur
Julie Flint
Commentary by
Friday, March 31, 2006


It would be comical if it were not so cynical; cruel even. Arabs leaders meeting at the Arab League summit in Khartoum earlier this week offered to fund the African Union (AU) peacekeeping force in Darfur to the tune of some $150 million, starting on October 1 of this year. However, the AU has been on the ground in Darfur since 2004, and in all that time the Arab League has invested $200,000 dollars in it - the equivalent, at the present rate of expenditure, of less than one day's running costs.
snip
In the next six months - months that Khartoum's Arab accomplices have chosen to ignore - many people will die in Darfur. Because of growing insecurity, both in Darfur and across the border in Chad, more than half a million displaced and conflict-affected civilians are beyond the reach of relief. The UN has raised only $130 million of the $650 million it needs for 2006. The UN children's agency, UNICEF, has received just a tenth of the funding that it needs. International pressure on the Sudanese government and its murderous proxies is a sometime, and supremely unconvincing, thing. The UN's humanitarian chief, Jan Egeland, says he fears that Darfur is returning to the "abyss" of early 2004 when the region was "the killing fields of this world." He predicts that those who cannot be reached "will soon get massively increased mortality."


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=23382


Depending on who's getting killed, sometimes there aint much outrage, let alone notice

[Englander]

117. No, it doesn't.

Since the point yer making isn't remotely related to the one I was
making, I'm wondering if you even read my post. If the massacre wasn't,
imo, being justified, then I wouldn't have provided all the details of
it. Since it was, imo, by being labelled 'retaliatory', then just what
was being justified should be seen.

Darfur? Where did that come from?
So, yer equating Qibya with attempted genocide?
If you say so, barb...

[barb162]

119. Of course I read it. I thought the part about international

opinion somewhat silly as the Daily Star article clearly shows an atrocity can happen in the world and a lot of them don't get much, if any, air or print time. In any case, you are not the one who sets up the rules about what should and should not get posted, such as incidents that have international opinion on one side or another. And from where does this assumption arise:"yer equating Qibya with attempted genocide? "

[Englander]

120. No, you've missed the point.

If yer weren't equating the massacre at Qibya by Isreali troops with attempted genocide,
then why was Darfur used as a eg?

[barb162]

91. talk of a 100 year hudna is just that...talk

And more likely propaganda to make Hamas look like itis capable of moderating

[Violet_Crumble]

97. And yr problem with ceasefires being discussed is what exactly?

The absolute fear that peace may eventually happen?

Violet...

[Phx_Dem]

13. Maybe drop leaflets

That say this:


INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE

The Court would emphasize that both Israel and Palestine are under an obligation scrupulously to observe the rules of international humanitarian law, one of the paramount purposes of which is to protect civilian life.

I think that should do the trick!

[pelsar]

17. was done.....

complete with phone number to call if and when some rockets are about to go off...

obviously didnt do much good

[idontwantaname]

21. what about ghandi?

nonviolent means should/could be considered on both sides?

[pelsar]

23. that would work...but thats long term

it did during intifada I.....it was the palesteanins massive "people" protesting that got oslo going...that the typical IDF soldier and reservist couldnt take.

but thats not the case today.....nor will that stop the katushas.....and thats the immediate problem for israel

(perhaps in different thread i could explain what it would take to get the middle israeli to back the palestenians)

[idontwantaname]

25. definitely the kassams dont help anyone...

but theres deeper issue. the kassams are a symptom of a greater problem... perhaps its unemployment. maybe its poor living conditions or lack of education or lack of exposure to anyone/thing outside gaza. maybe its no hopes for a future... but something lies deeper with the repeated kassam attacks and work should be put into addressing the greater issue.

[pelsar]

28. its a lot of things......

as you wrote...and i certainly blame the PA for not taking advantage of gaza..... i see a massive failure as a socity there, but all of that is not israels problem. Israels problem remains katushas flying into israel, potentially into Ashkelon.

on doubt any solution will make the life of the citizen of gaza worse...but nevertheless the alternative is to let israelis die and be terrorized.

so the question remains: who should be terrorized and who gets the collective punishement, israelis or gazans?

[idontwantaname]

30. just imagine

what would happen if you let a bunch of NGOs, CPT, ISM ect into gaza to help jumpstart things... with farms, water programs ect... sure there maybe some kidnappings here and there but im sure the kassams would slow dramatically.

[pelsar]

32. its up to them.....

israel no longer controls gaza, they have an entrance via egypt.....however i'm not so sure the palestenains want them there any longer...in fact i believe most left.......for fear of their own safety.

whats happening is a cultural problem

[idontwantaname]

34. I am not a Hamas supporter

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2006/03/25/the-story-of-saeed-abu-salah/

http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/

Saeed Abu Salah is a patient man. Judging from all he has endured during the past four years at least. Abu Salah-40 years old with graying hair and eyes the color of chestnuts, and 20 children from separate two marriages-lives in Gaza’s northernmost region in the farming town of Beit Hanun-nearly as far north as you can go without being killed as so many have.

He is less than a kilometer away in fact from the border with Israel-and the fence and wall that bulldozers, active even as we spoke and visible in plain distance, were building.

Directly across from his house, at the end of an unpaved dirt path that used to lead to his 40 donom cattle ranch and citrus groves-now inaccessible and razed to the ground- is an Israeli lookout tower, resting atop a large mound of sand just across the border. It is equipped with a camera that monitors the family’s every move even as we speak, and a sniper, who every now and again fires “warning” shots at us.

“He doesn’t like you being here, as a journalist. Its normal-he shoots day and night, but particularly when visitors come” explained Abu Salah matter-of-factly, of the unseen sniper, whom he talks about with unenviable confidence and the seemingly intimate knowledge of a close acquintance.


Still, Abu Salah is unflinching in his determination to stay put, asserting that he will only allow Israeli troops to drive him out, which he says they have tried to do so many times before, “over his dead body”.

The UNDP estimated the damage done to his farm, which one employed over 30 Palestinians, at nearly half a million dollars. All he got in return was a zinc-sheeted shed, shielding little more than a wounded horse. “We just can’t afford to buy any more cattle. Or plant any more trees. Why should we? The Israelis will just destroy them again,” he says, staring at the forboding and ever-present tower in the distance. His family used to be self-sufficient, but since his farm was razed, he now has to rely on working for a local contractor once a week for money.

He greets me with tea and sweet, strong coffee as he displays his “museum of Israeli war artifacts”-a room full of 55kg tank shells that we can barely lift together, which he has decorated with artificial flowers; an arch, neatly trimmed with a line of Israeli bullet casings; and a photo album he keeps of all the damage done to his ranch-including his sniped cows, lying dead alongside each other, their intestines spilling out of their bloated stomachs.



“It’s as if they wanted to say, ‘this could be you’” he said, his young children peering through the iron-barred window in front of us, and the smallest, piercingly blue-eyed child giggling under his arms. “They used to be so afraid-the young ones still are. Now, they have gotten so used to it that if we don’t hear shelling, we think something is wrong. They are always firing at us, and when not firing, then shelling, and when not shelling, hovering over us with F-16s and drones, mocking us, provoking us, trying to show us that we are surrounded from all sides and that we have to eventually leave.”

There are no clinics where he lives. No grocery stores. Nothing is allowed. His wife is expecting anyday now, but Abu Salah is worried an ambulance may not be allowed in.

“Since Israeli forces declared the area-including my home, a buffer zone a few months ago, dozens of heavy shells fired by either Israeli tanks or warplanes have fallen in the area, wounding my 21-years old son Eid in his right arm, inflicting severe damage to my modest house and casting panic in my children’s’ hearts” explained Abu Salah, lifting his son’s wasted arm, left with little more than base muscle and stubs of fingers.

“I am not a Hamas supporter, but let me say that we’ve given enough concessions-and whole decade of concessions for free. The PLO decided to recognize Israel and what did recognition bring us? Have them recognize our rights first, our freedom to live, our right of return, then surely, we will recognize their rights.”

At night, Abu Salah and his family become prisoners in their own home, unable to move for free of being shot by the faceless sniper.

“This is our existence. This is our reality. This is our fate. And we will bear it out, but never another hijra (exile)-I will stay here till they bury me in my grave.”

[pelsar]

35. and thats one solution....

kassams come out of the Beit Chanon..since its the closest point to Sederot where the kassams are fired at. and they fire from behind buildings (in the open fields they will get shot by those snipers)

so the alternative is for israel to do nothing...and let the kassams shoot with no interference and terrorize and kill israelis....

the problem still stands.

[idontwantaname]

36. the problem still stands for everyone

do you think it would do any good for 2 groups, 1 israeli and 1 gaza palestinian to correspond over email and try to figure out a solution? perhaps you could be the initial contact?

[pelsar]

38. I've done that......

during the heyday of oslo i had dreams of working all across the arab world...and corresponded with several palestenains about working together...with intifada II we all figured that it will be put on hold......

but no i have nothing against it at all

[Andromeda]

61. I feel your frustration , pelsar...

I wish I had all the answers and could fix everything with a stroke of my magic wand. It looks as if you've tried many things and nothing has worked so far. If you have corresponded with several Palestinians, that's probably more than a lot of people have done. It shows that you sincerely want peace and circumstances are preventing it.

Some Palestinians no doubt feel as you do but they are helpless to overcome the political powers that be.

Keep trying, pelsar.

[pennylane100]

31. Of course it is wrong to fire rockets on innocent people

and I am sure that Israel will soon retaliate killing just as many innocent people, and maybe more. They could even re-enter the area and raze a few more buildings, destroy more of the infrastructure and generally make life miserable for thousands of innocent people.

However that and any other form of collective punishment will not silence the anger of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (maybe even millions) who have been pushed out of their land and forced to live in two separate pieces of land that the Israelis then proceeded to steal over the last forty years

Add to that that they are being even more of their land is being stolen to build a wall to imprison them and I for one think that the collective punishment that Israel has consistently handed out is more than enough.

Do you have en ought anger to share with both sides or is it just the rocket firers who seem to have few options to fight back.

[pelsar]

37. so you have no solution....other than let the israelis be killed

my anger is not at the palestenians...but i would say responses such as yours....which as i understand it is:

israel should do nothing and let israelis be killed and terrorized by kassams and now katushas...thats the best of the alternatives



......if I'm mistaken than perhaps your solution can be in your next response?

[idontwantaname]

39. i think...

pelsar you should really contact the folks i posted above. ill send you my email and you can cc: me and maybe we 3 could do more than our govts have been able to.

its worth a try.

[pelsar]

41. send away.....

communication never hurts

[pennylane100]

44. I do not know what the solution is.

The bad blood between these two groups has been hundreds of years in the making.

What I was referring to was you "collective punishment statement" It seems to be that both sides have committed atrocities and at this time the punishment is decidedly one sided. The Israeli occupation has left the Palest ian infrastructure in ruins and the government is powerless and broke. Palestinians have been brutalized and killed by Israeli troops on a regular basis, all without redress.

I think that only when both sides acknowledge their mistakes, will there be peace,

[pelsar]

45. ....your "lack of solution" means: Israelis should die

yes you were refering to "collective punishment" via the israelis...and how would you define a katusha fired...i would define it as act of colllective terrorism and punishment......

i understand that anything israel does to defend itself, as you seem to have declared will be deemed "illegal, a war crime (I'm assuming this so feell free to correct) etc.

hence even if you dont have an answer, you seem to prefer that israel do nothing....which in practical terms for those living in the area...you mean to say:

your an israeli....just let yourself and family get killed, thats the preferred situation, given the alternatives

i appreciate the honesty......(again if i've made a wrong assumption, correct me)

[Midnight Rambler]

46. You're the only one saying "Israelis should die"

You keep putting words in peoples' mouths, because you only see two possibilities. Either one is in favor of "collective punishment" or one is in favor of Israelis getting killed. That is a false dichotomy. You're not even allowing for any other possibility, such as not fully understanding every little detail, yet recognizing that innocent people are being hurt in retaliation for the actions of a few. Or simply saying "don't shoot at people who aren't doing anything," as was going on in the article Ton Joad posted. Just because someone doesn't know what to do doesn't mean that they're in favor of letting Israelis die. However, based on your posts, you seem to think so.

I'm not against Israelis defending themselves, it just seems to me that many of the ways in which they go about this are unjust. I have to believe that there are reasonable solutions which don't involve killing innocent people or forcing them out of their homes. I don't know all the realities on the ground, nor do I claim to have all the answers to the problems at hand. So let me phrase my solution in the form of a question. Would it be possible to recruit people, Israeli Arabs perhaps, to infiltrate these terror networks and go after the ones who are actually committing these acts, rather than ordinary Palestinians? And if not, why?

[pelsar]

47. i am stating what the resut of inaction is....by the IDF....

yes i see only two basic possibilities ...realistic alternatives.....you say i'm not allowing for any other possibilties?...oh but i am, i just dont know what they are...and it seems neither does anybody else here.

It may be true that the posters here believe israel can defend itself...except that all of the realistic alternatives are considered a "no no"...which means, they may "say" its ok for the israelis to defend themselves in principle...but no more than that, the result of such thinking is that the actual policy is that israelis should sit down and wait to be killed, whole families - that the practical aspect of the "dont hurt innocents policy" (unless I am missing something here....)


as far as what the realities on the ground are, they arent too complex: some palestenains set up a rocket and shoot it over the border, the more under pressure they are, the less time to aim, hence many miss, but that is because they know that IDF artillary and helicpoters are looking for them...which result in innocents being killed as well, which is a condemed of course.

as far as infiltrating the terror networks...spys...some are, but its not israeli arabs (if caught, they're punishments would be.....)its usually palestenains, but there is a limit to what they can do....fact is the missles are flying over and the PA does nothing.

any ways its not that simple...the shooters are also fine upstanding palestenains workin in the security forces by day....or merchants etc....and they dont wear uniforms so its pretty hard to know who they are.

however, whatever the "good will " of the posters here, and the wish not to hurt innocents....and the willingness to condem any israeli action that may result in some form of collective punishment....the result of such inaction is what i clearly have stated:

the preference that israelis should be killed by doing nothing in their own defense....

[Midnight Rambler]

48. Not knowing isn't the same as preferring Israelis die

You keep inferring that based on other posters' condemnation of collective punishment. Just because someone speaks out on civilian casualties as a result of Isreali actions doesn't mean they'd rather Israelis just let themselves get killed. Wanting to progress towards policies and actions that reduce or eliminate the number of casualties rather than continue with the current ones is not the same as wanting do do absolutely nothing. But you seem to be saying the two are one and the same. Either you're in favor of the current policies, or you're in favor of dead Israelis.

Look at it this way. From many of your posts, one could infer that you think civilian casualties on the Palestinian side are just fine. I'm not saying that's what you believe, just that some of your remarks can easily be interpreted that way. Many people here see a lack of condemnation, or even worse, a justification, of Palestinian civilian casualties. Again, I don't know exactly what's going through your head, but you can give off that perception.

I don't have any solutions because I don't know enough about the situation from all angles. I don't know everything that's been tried before, and I don't know everything that's being done now. But I do think that Israel should make significant and visible moves away from such destructive actions towards those that can effectively dispense justice while not harming those who have done nothing. And when there are civilian casualties, make sure there's consecquences (I don't know what the system for that is, but if it's anything like our own, it could probably use some work). Even if those methods aren't realistic, as you put it, refine them so that they are. Or look into some new alternatives, something that hasn't been done yet, that just may work. That's what I think, from an outsider's perspective. Does that mean I would prefer Israelis die?

[pelsar]

51. still no solution....still the preference remains....

what i am wrting about, and it should be clear by now.....that by condeming every israeli response to the rockets as "collective punishment"....and if the IDF were to listen to that.....the PRACTICAL end result is letting israelis be killed and the israeli govt doing nothing about it.

and yes when israel responds it is in fact 'collective punishment" since there is no PRACTICAL way of finding the shooters who hide behind civilians. The technology simply doesnt exist.

you write a lot about "refining methods, new methods, new alternatives".....thats being done constantly and dont forget for every israeli new method the shooters do exactly the same...they find new methods, new alternatives to hide deeper within the civilians.

but all that is mere talk...the simple fact is, the impossibility of not hitting civilians is precisely why they shoot from behind apt buildings.

whenever theres a complaint about the IDF methods....it seems no alternatives (realistic, practical, existing today never come up.).

so the problem remains, and as you mentioned, "you dont have any solutions" (there are no hidden angles, thats a cop out).

I'll make is simple: There are no methods today of locating and killing people who hide within a hostile population, who shoot from behind that same population without hurting the people around...that is the situation today, as it exists...no magic solutions, no force fields, no beaming down.....simple guns and bombs and missles.....thats it.

which leaves israel with two alternatives:

1) do nothing and let israelis be killed because that alternative is better than the second

2) IDF retaliates attempting to limit civilian causulties..which is precisely what its been doing for the last 30+ years and not always succeeding, because that is precisly what the shooters are attempting to do.

your either support 1 or 2......

(condeming 2 without providing an alternative is by default preference for no 1)




no i dont think civilian causalites with the palestenians are just fine.....i also however dont believe in sitting around letting myself and family be killed because this is only the 21st century and technology has its limitations....more so...seems to me the guilty party are those who do the shooting and those of the PA who do nothing to stop the shooters. But that is not the issue here, the issue is "can the IDF be "allowed to protect the country" given the limitations of technologies and the ability of the shooters to hide or is everything it does "illegal and a war crime" and consequently it should do nothing....with the obvious preference of having israelis killed.

those are the consequences....its really that simple, no hidden secrets here.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. I gave you solutions in an earlier thread...

And you weren't interested in them, instead choosing to attack everything I suggested. I'd be happy to discuss this with someone who was genuinelly interested in solutions, but I'm not seeing it in this thread and the attempts to paint anyone who's honest enough to say they don't have an answer as being someone who thinks it's okay that Israelis die....

My suggestion now is to give this a rest coz it's getting very irritating...

Violet...

[pelsar]

62. your solution...

if i recall correctly had no actually application in the real world to stop the kassams.....let alone the katushas...

but if you have an update..i would love to hear it

[Violet_Crumble]

65. My solution was as practical as anything else I've seen...

And no, pelsar. I'm not playing this stupid game with you anymore. I've told you that before...

Violet...

[pelsar]

69. then dont play...

i would guess because its a lot easier to condem the "occupation electricity" that israel sends to gaza then actually accept the limitations of reality....

like others......condeming israel, for any kind of realistic defense is simply another way of saying" israeli deaths are prefered over palestenians"

one may not like to admit it...but inactions all have consequences....and thats one of them

[Violet_Crumble]

70. I'm not...

But I've made it very clear why I won't and it's got zero to do with what you claim it is. I've said several times in various threads now that I don't think yr genuinelly interested in answers or in doing anything other than attacking any criticism of Israeli policy or action as being wanting Israelis to die. As someone else in this thread pointed out, yr giving people two extreme options with no interest in anything in between. And that, pelsar, is why I won't play this stupid game...

Violet...

[pelsar]

75. I'm very interested..

in exposing the hypocrisy...

Its one thing to criticise israeli policy and suggest alternatives that take into account the problems and conflicts that exist on the ground involving those involved...which i never see here.

and its something else to criticise israeli policy.....without offering real alternatives and without understanding the consequnces which is the standard here.

if for every action the IDF does (which will have some collective punishement aspect to it, since the palestenians are fighting from within civilian areas) is deemed illegal...then i understand from the posters here that the IDF should do nothing.

the consequence of that is quite simple: the missle launchers will have more time to launch, use spottters, adjust their aim and get "better results"...i.e land on house, buildings, etc....and kill israelis....

its that simple...and that is the obvious preference here......israeli dead in attacks that intend to kill as many israelis as possible is preferred as opposed to a measure response intended to kill as few palestenains as possible.

i suspect you "cant" play because your put into precisly that position.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. You haven't exposed any hypocrisy...

Well, apart from the hypocrisy I see in the continued justification for any and all heavy-handed actions that often do result in the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Not once has there been any thought given to the fact that given that logic they of all people should be entitled to feel exactly the same way about supporting heavy-handed actions that would result in the deaths of Israeli civilians if they thought it might do something to stop the deaths of their friends and families. And just like you, it doesn't matter if they're right or wrong in thinking those actions would have that effect...

Most of us care not only about Israeli civilians, but also about Palestinians, which is why I find the fixation on rockets just a bit hypocritical. If I'd seen just an iota of that repeated 'concern' expressed when Palestinian children are killed by the IDF, then I'd not be pointing out the hypocrisy thing now...

That you repeatedly accuse posters here who have tried to discuss this with you honestly and openly of preferring Israelis to be killed when anyone reading their posts can easily spot they're not preferring that at all speaks volumes to me about the perils of having a lack of objectivity and an inability to talk in anything but extremes. I was recently involved in a pointless Q&A session with some US conservatives when one of them asked what I would have done to stop Saddam seeing I was opposed to the invasion. Not surprisingly, nothing I said was considered an answer, and I'm seeing that exact same attitude here in this thread....

Violet...

[pelsar]

84. nor have i seen an answer.....

the "caring" for the israeli civilians" is at the sametime, is usually coupled with a "the IDF is using collective punishment....meaning, a REALISTIC reaction "permitted" by the IDF that would protect those civilians is "not accepted

hence the "caring" is no more than a weak attempt at playing even, when in fact the preference is for israel NOT to react, given the limitations of technololgy.

the few posters who have discussed this openly...are now at the point...what is permitted for the IDF to do...which is where i opened at....perhaps to make its clearer what i would like to see is a list of some "permited actions that will have an immediate affect.


1).....
2)....
3).....

some of us live in a very real world where missles actually do land and kill people...that may be a fixation to some who have never seen/heard/felt it...but to others its not.

As far as me being hypocrtical about the palestenains killed..... I usually dont get to involved in those discussions because they're usually full of assumptions and lack of knowledge of how and why. Many times kids are killed by mistake, fast trigger fingers, and others because they were involved, etc...and as much as i feel for not just the kids and their families i find the atmosphere here extremly hostile when i even attempt to explain some situations and environments.

for an example: the day after the school girl in gaza was killed as she approached an IDF (sort of on the way to school) and was shot and "confirmed dead" by the commander, a similar incident happend at a different IDF base in Gaza....with the girl being taken in by the commander and returned to her parents. (i know the commander). The differences were in attitude and background of the commanders. I mentioned that here and was immediatly accused of lying etc...

Night vision equipment?.....dare i mention the limitations of it?..seems people here believe eveytime a palestenain is killed it was intentional...one gets the impression that the IDF is made up of superman...evil superman.

having an honest discussion here, without the superlatives and redefining of words (massacre. occupation electricity..) is rather difficult.....also asking for real-world solutions is usually never accepted...nor are israeli concerns about kassams in the westbank

thats what i would like for a change.

[Violet_Crumble]

90. You haven't looked very hard then...

And so we end up back where I started with you. I tried to give you answers, and you pooh-poohed everything I suggested. And THAT is why I don't believe yr the slightest bit interested in having any sort of honest discussion...

Violet..

[pelsar]

94. i read and have reread...

1) a mention of pamphlets (tried by the IDF)

2) targeting just the shooters (the present attempts)...


if i've missed something perhaps you could point it out to me?....

btw you mentioned the "heavy hand of the IDF"...perhaps you would then write down what a prefered "lighter hand" would be?...that too would be interesting to read...and of course, if it has been tried before, perhaps it has..since i dont really know what your referring to, enlighten me.

[Violet_Crumble]

95. Keep on reading and rereading yr older threads...

And, no. I'm not going to enlighten you on anything, considering you don't take any notice of what anyone says and insist that they hold views that they don't hold...

Violet...

[pelsar]

103. i dont think they exist....

in fact i write quite a bit, for those who place information and actual ideas in the posts. I have noticed that you constantly neglet to put forth any ideas, (outside of the single one)..but you do write a lot about how i ignore them...i just dont know which ones your talking about.

if you drop down below to "midnight rambler" you will notice a civil discussion of ways, means, advantages and disadvantages of the various methods use. I am more than happy to discuss it with those who put forth differenet ideas....but thats the key...put forth some ideas.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. They definately do exist...

I suggested UN peacekeepers and another suggestion was evacuating Israeli towns near the border. Would you like a link to them? Because I don't appreciate someone telling me I constantly neglect to put forth any ideas....

Violet...

[pelsar]

110. yes i recall the evacuation of israeli towns...

and since the katushas can now reach ashkelon as well as the wider radius including other towns and villages i assume your also in favor of that as well:

your want to evacuate: over 170,000 people?....and where will they go? and what about their living....and close the port as well as the electrical power station that delivers power to Gaza? (now within range)..or should israelis endanger their lives to provide electricity to gaza when certain gazans are trying to kill them?

UN peacekeepers.....will they be preventing the firing of the missles? and do you really think Hamas would even agree to such a thing?

i do recall your proposals...and in turn i offer a response...civil and with a further questions, you will note i have not negated them, i am asking for further info.

[eyl]

79. "I don't have an answer"

is not a solution

[Violet_Crumble]

82. I gave several solutions...

All of which were pooh-poohed. Personally I figure there's a shitload of Palestinians actually being killed and that in itself makes it just a bit callous to be fixated on something that hasn't caused shitloads of deaths. Also, this constant demand for SOLUTIONS!!!! is irritating as this is a discussion board and it's rarely that I see SOLUTIONS!!!!! posted about much at all...

Violet...

[Midnight Rambler]

73. I think I get it now

If you don't like the way things are going, then you want Israelis to die. It's so simple, just like Bush's policies. Either you support them, or by default you support the terrorists.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "Don't shoot at people who aren't doing anything" and "Don't force people out of their homes." I've never said Israel should do nothing. But let me make it simple. Someone shoots a rocket, shoot back by all means. But don't shoot at people going about their daily routine, and don't destroy homes and farms. Retaliate against attacks, but make greater efforts to treat the general population better. Hearts and minds, you know.

But I'm sure somehow that adds up to me wanting Israelis to die.

[pelsar]

76. and what do you think israels been attemping to do?-can you decide?

when israel shoots back and destroys the house that the "rocket" came from...who do you think comes out of that house and complains....the shooters?....no the grandma with journalist all around

more so, some of those people 'going about their daily routine" also shoot missles in their spare time......and when they are killed in downtown gaza by a missle that also kills others it because missles have limited technologies that kill more than the individual

Everybody says what your saying: Israel should do something"....and then pretend that israel has some kind of magic way of getting to the shooters while their shooting...but they're just not using it, Instead israel prefers to kill innocents and as you put it: people going about their daily routine.."

heres a challange: how about giving some concrete suggestions as to what israel can and cannot do? a couple of real scenarios for you:

when a missle is launched from behind an apt building.........and spotted by a helicopter during the launch......

When a missle is being set up next to a home? spotted by an drone (the only immidate response possible is artillary

Missles launched from the cover of a orange grove....no precise target
(knowing full well that if the grove is not there, they wont be firing from it)

______________________________________

there is nothing you dont know, no magic 25century weapons: just spotters, artillary, bombs, missles and they all can miss

so what are your preferences: the IDF attempting to stop the missles and probably kill innocents going about their daily routines....or let the missles shoot and possible kill israelis

[Midnight Rambler]

85. So it's okay to shoot at people because they *might* be terrorists?

Because the shooters use groves for cover, the answer is uproot the whole thing, never mind the people who depend on that grove for their livelihood? Do they not have a right to make a living? Or is it okay because they might shoot rockets too?

As for shooting people going about their daily routines, I was referring to the article that Tom Joad posted, with the sniper firing warning shots at the family just hanging around their home. The family whose farm has been destroyed. Are you cool with that?

1) When a missile is being launched from behind an apt. building, spotted by copter: use machine guns
2) Missile being set up next to a home: do what you do, and impose consequences for civilian casualties. If no one is killed in the home, compensate the owners or help them rebuild
3) Missle launced from grove: attack, then compensate or help replant

There is plenty I don't know. I've never been to Israel, never served in the military, don't know much about weapons technology, don't know the feasibility of the rockets being shot down, don't know the entire history of every single method that has been tried by the IDF.

If you must fire back at the missile shooters, then fire back. But if there's civilian casualties, there must be sharp consequences, don't just write it off as collateral damage like the US does. And use machine guns first when choppers are availible. But I also say don't destroy peoples' livelihood and force them out of their homes in the name of security. That is wrong, not direct retaliation. But my preference is to invest more in shutting down the networks. I'm sure it can be done. If it was up to me, I would put international peacekeepers in Gaza, on the grounds that the PA is not policing its own territory. I would also try and do for the Palestinians what the PA can't or won't. Humanitarian aid, building schools, hospitals, whatever it is (I don't know exactly what the PA does or doesn't do).

Again, I'm sure that will somehow add up to me wanting Israelis to die.

[pelsar]

100. damages......

let me reply....as i do have some military experience:

machine guns from a helicopter cause far more "collateral damage" than a "smart missle"...one has to aim before the target and continue shooting after passing it, the dust clouds make it impossible to be sure you've even hit the target....the "better option" is the missle.

if a missle shooter uses a building..its because its the most appropriate one-location etc....why would the IDF then help them rebuild?...so that they can do it again?...

same too with the orange groves...the fact is that as the shooters would use part, the IDF would "raze"that part..the shooters would then use the next part..and so on and so forth, until the whole grove was razed...and the shooting stoppped from there..so why would then the IDF help replant it, so that they can start all over? (I once watched the owners of the grove have a fight once with the shooters-fist fight to keep them off-N. Gaza)

the missles shooters arent dumb...they take advantage of everything and keep coming back..your idea is that after something is destroyed, the IDF should rebuild so they can do it again...that accomlishs nothing other than providing a finacial incentive for palestenains to have their houses used

reminds me of the tunnelers in gaza, they first paid the home owners for the home, in case the IDF bulldozed their house as punishment...and when that happend they would build elsewhere, have a new tunnel, get paid ....

rockets cant be shot down today....not the small simple ones

and whos responsable for the civilian causulties?...the shooters who hide behind them or the IDF which shoots back....why doesnt the PA have to pay for them? compensate...isnt it they who arent policing their own territory? Also, i assume it goes both ways...the PA should compensate israel for damages.

Your two basic ideas of shutting down the networks and putting in peacekeepers simply arent feasable in Gaza, if you've noticed neither the PA or israel has ever really brought up the idea of (peacekeepers)...the reason is two fold.

Presently in Gaza even the UN personal have left, as well as most internationals out of their own safety. Gaza is broken up in to armed areas, political groups etc...putting in an additional armed group would only add to the mess, the first time a UN peacekeeper is killed or in their own defense kill a gazan....can you imagine the mess?....

more so if the shooters dont mind shooting from behind their own civilians why would they care more for a "foreign UN peacekeeper"....and of course there is the experience in Lebanon, where they just watch as Hizballa goes about attacking and kidnapping israelis.

shutting down the networks...well thats what societies that work do...they attempt to keep their fanatics/militias in check, as much as possible, in Gaza, the present authority either cant or wont (probably cant) at this point in time.

there are no "magic military secrets here"....the stuff is basically based on 19th century technology: bullets and bombs. And the question at hand is:
___________________________________________________________________
who is responsable for the civilian causulties and property damage?
___________________________________________________________________

I understand that your claiming that its israels responsability...i would agree if israel was in control of gaza....but they're not. The PA is responsable for the happenings in gaza and hence are responsable for the activities and the subsequent consequences belong to the PA.

a footnote: no i am not in favor of random shootings nor "reminders" that some soldiers do....I am strongly infavor of using munitions with as much precision as possible when their is a target....and am strongly infavor of "if i get shot at, return fire should be 10x)

The civilians in gaza are caught up inbetween, you'll notice that i dont say that of the israeli civilians mainly because in israel we dont separate the IDF from the "civilians" nor from the govt. There is an over all responsability here that links all three. The PA doesnt have that authority (or the Hamas)..however there is little israel can do, if their civilian population is used as a human shield...the choices are simple:

and none of them being good:
clearing a grove means no shooting from the grove....less dead people
using missles means less collateral damage than machine guns....less dead people
artillary in open fields, renders those fields useless to build upon, but no rockets being shot....less dead people

etc....the choics by the IDF are usually the lesser evil option given the choices made.....but the real question at hand...is why are those in gaza even shooting at israel?...israel left, they have their own society, why are they picking a fight?...why arent they building their own society, they've got lots to do?......

[Ian David]

42. The Palestinians just fire the rockets when they WANT something bulldozed

Whenever they want to make a new parking lot, they just fire a $500 rocket from a building, and the next day the Israelis spend tens of thousands of dollars leveling it.

When a suicide bomber dies killing Israelis, the terrorists give his family about $20,000 in cash. And that's aside from the 72 virgins (or 69 virgins Canadian). I guess they're using that money to build new houses on the empty lots after the bulldozers come. It's cheaper to let the Israelis do the demolition.

Fire a rocket. Bulldozers come. Nothing changes. Fire a rocket. Bulldozers come. Nothing changes.

I can't think of anything else they could possibly hope to accomplish.

They must want the bulldozers to come.

Israelis turn more territory over to the Palestinians. Palestinians fire more rockets. Israelis turn over more territory to the Palestinians. Palestinians fire more rockets.

Hey, maybe the Israelis want the rockets?

It could be kind of a win-win situation, actually.

And now the Israelis actually forced their own Jewish citizens out of settlements at gunpoint, and turned their land over to the Palestinians.

And what did the Palestinians ask the Israelis to do?

They asked the Israelis to bulldoze the settlements before they turned them over!

You can't make that shit up!

"Thanks for the land. But can you bulldoze the buildings first? Or do we need to fire rockets from them first?"

See, Palestinians might actually like being bulldozed!

And in return for turning over all those disputed settlements, out of gratitude, the Palestinians made the terrorist group Hammas their official government!

Ka-ching!

Plenty of rockets for everyone!

Freedom is on the march!

[barb162]

59. Oh Great One,

I bow before thee three times in reverence for thy awesome wit

Some things are on the Pavlovian side, aren't they

[Violet_Crumble]

67. The funniest bit...

..was where he said the settlers turned theirland over to the Palestinians. I just hope no-one's stupid enough to take that sort of thing seriously and believe those settlements are actually sitting on Israeli territory...

Violet...

[barb162]

88. Do you mean the ex-Egyptian land that Israel won in a war?

[Violet_Crumble]

89. No, I mean Palestinian land...

Only extremists who thrive on continued hatred and violence stick to the moronic line that the Palestinian territories are actually part of Israel...

Violet..

[methinks2]

114. You are tireless Violet

I commend yu for yr efforts. Although You may be wasting your fingers on some of the cretans here who think violence and guns will solve all disputes.
O8) O8) O8) O8) O8)

[pelsar]

116. some of us cretens...

find we have little choice but to use guns and violence....the alternative seems to be for those living in northern israel or next to gaza is either that or evacuate their homes.....a little over 200,000 people.

i guess for some thats perfectly reasonable..... (as long as the people being forced out of their homes are not palestenians....)

[methinks2]

130. People change when they have hope

I've been to Israel/Palestine. It's very nice in Jerusalem. SHopping, nice gated communites, jobs, commerce is working in the big cities. But in the occupied territories life is different. Many of those people are suffering from multi-generationl poverty. Even when they manage to get educated the result of the occupation is a lack of supplies and jobs. When people are well-employed and well-fed, when they have the perception of freedom, hope and choice. They are too busy to cause problems. Look at the average american. They are mostly oblivious to the reality of their own country, much less the world. That's because we have hope. If our neighborhood sucks or our job is lousy. That is pretty easy to fix. We can move anywhere we want. Except for the occasional protest over elections and a few other things, Our government gets away with ripping us off,sending us to war, stealing elections. And most people in this country aren't getting too upset about any of that. Because we're fat and happy. You want more peace in Israel/Palestine, work on giving everyone true freedom. Let the Palestinians get fat and happy like americans. Maybe the leading politicans should study a little psychology and sociology. I think that too many people in Israel have lived with the current situation for too long. They forget that it could be better. I know it's easy to shoot all the problems. But in the end, violence only begets more violence.
Where there is justice, there is peace.

[Igel]

113. I also find the assertion isn't accurate.

Although I don't agree with your (later) rhetoric.

But while the assertion isn't accurate, it's also not entirely inaccurate. Some land had been legally purchased (in at least one instance, at least twice) under the laws that prevailed at the time by the settlers occupying it, or their predecessors. This land, which belonged to the settlers, was indeed theirs and was turned over to the Palestinians. Of course, it may be the case that the PA established Judenrein or "Israeli-rein" laws and legally expropriated those settlers' land without compensation.

While I sometimes, alas, make sweeping statements, and sometimes get carried away with my own rhetoric, I like to try to keep mental note of the factual niceties involved.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

123. That wasn't a personal attack!

I read Igil's post and he was using the rhetorical 'you'. He was not calling the poster he replied to an extremist and it was very clear he was talking about actual extremists.


Violet...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lovuian]

49. Palestinians fire first Katyusha from Gaza to Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/699852.html


Palestinians have for the first time fired a Katyusha rocket, a much longer-range projectile than the Qassam, from the Gaza Strip into Israel, the Israel Defense Forces confirmed last night.

The army is checking whether the 122-mm. rocket, which landed without exploding in an open area south of Ashkelon, is of Iranian manufacture.

The Katyusha was one of three rockets that were launched from the northern Gaza Strip yesterday morning. The IDF says they were all most likely launched by the Islamic Jihad, which had vowed to try to disrupt yesterday's elections.
snip...
The Katyusha launch places Israel in a dilemma, especially if it is repeated. Its longer range would put a much larger number of Israeli towns and villages, including the southern coastal city of Ashkelon, in danger of attack from Gaza. If Israel responds harshly because of this, it will be the first security crisis the new government faces
more...
Could be another reason lower voter turnout for the Israel election...
Things are heating up...

[Tom Joad]

50. This is a dupe

[pelsar]

52. why?

it was inevitable..since smuggling via the egyptian border is now far easier...

or does that fact that the certain palestenians in gaza may now have the ability to send a missle to an apt building in israel somehow impossible to believe?..and that they are now trying...


damn facts get in the way again....but dont let them bother you...just deny them.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. It's a dupe coz it's about the same incident...

Though as the OP didn't include any text at all from the article it linked to, it's understandable that a dupe would happen...

Violet...

[pelsar]

63. i misunderstood...n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Of course....

...it could be because this was origianlly in LBN (the dupe) and not I/P. Then, it got moved here and combined.

[norml]

121. "what israel should do?....." Make them an independent sovereign state

able to import, export, and make their own trade deals.

Start with Gaza, allow other occupied territories to be annexed later.

The UN could help.

Making them an independent sovereign state undercuts those on both sides who's power and profits depend on prolonging the current situation.

Saying there must be peace before there can be a settlement is bullshit.

There'll never be a settlement that way.

Don't wait for peace.

Just do it.

[pelsar]

122. whos stopping them?

they can import and export all they like via egypt as long as egypt agrees...they hardly need israels "permission"

they can have peace in gaza....all they have to do is stop shooting missles from there...is that such a difficult thing to understand or is it some not "acceptable" to demand that they stop


or as some have proposed here, its better to transfer and ethnically cleans the 170,000 israelis from their homes to elsewhere who are in range of their missles.

[norml]

124. Oh boy, they can trade with Egypt and Israel?

And here I thought they could only trade with Israel.

If so, this doubles the number of countries with which they can trade.

Are there any more?

I wonder what they get to trade?

As for the missiles, if they shoot missiles at you, you shoot missiles at them.

That's diplomacy.

[pelsar]

125. if they're just a bit smarter....

the would take advantage of the egyptian border and export to all those arab countries that want to aid the palestenanians (they can have a "buy palestenain campaign"...so too in europe. Egypt has a port not just 20min south of Gaza (thats has equipment for vegis)

they should copy what israel does since its surrounded and boycotted on all its borders....sell to the rest of the world

[norml]

126. If they could buy and sell whatever they wanted with the rest of the world

it would be a much different situation from what it is now.

[pelsar]

127. whats stopping them?

Egypt?

[norml]

128. Yes, if Egypt and Israel are the only two countries they can trade with

and if they can only trade with them in a limited way, then that's who's stopping them.

[pelsar]

129. whos stopping them?

export their goods via egypt to europe?...saudi arabia....whats referred to as the rest of the world...all it takes is a bit of initative

either that or finding some piss poor excuse for the palestenians, which some prefer