Israel 'to step up Gaza shelling'

[Englander]

Israel has said it will intensify its artillery bombardment of the Gaza Strip to deter rocket attacks by Palestinian militants on its territory.

Officials said they regretted the recent deaths of a number of Palestinian civilians but were set on stopping the rocket attacks.

An eight-year-old girl killed by a shell on Monday has been buried.

She was the 16th Palestinian to die in Israeli air and artillery attacks on Gaza in the past four days.

For months, the Israeli army has been firing artillery rounds into open areas of northern Gaza in an effort to strike at, or deter, militants.

More at;
BBC News

[Poppyseedman]

1. The other side of the story

Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said the shelling was in direct response to militant attacks.

"As long as calm does not prevail on the Israeli side, neither will it do so on the Palestinian side," he said. "Our operations are going to intensify."

Personally, I think the Israeli are making a mistake, they should be responding with a lot more force. The militant attacks against Israel for the most part are unprovoked.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. A lot more force = many more dead Palestinian civilians...

And if Israel is busy killing Palestinian civilians as they fire their rockets, it'd be damn hard to argue that there's no provocation when the militants fire their rockets. Clearly violence isn't the answer for either side...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Maybe they should listen to their own people...

-- snip --

Other Palestinians have been killed by artillery fire and Israelis by Palestinian Qasam rockets. Hamas, the new Palestinian Government, has stopped its military wing from carrying out attacks but permitted other militant groups, principally Islamic Jihad and al- Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, to carry them out. The attacks infuriate many Palestinians, especially locals whose watermelon fields, poultry farms and greenhouses are shredded by retaliatory shrapnel.

“I tried to stop the Islamic Jihad firing from my farm and told them to get off my farm,” said Ahmed Abu Halima, 20, a cucumber farmer. “They hit me with their Kalashnikov and shot me in the foot,” he said. Ibrahim Abu Halima, 56, a farmer, said: “The Israelis should stop and I appeal for all the Palestinian factions to stop.”The Israeli military said that Palestinian militants had fired a rocket from the area 2½ hours before the shell struck the house. Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman, said last night: “We do everything that we can to try to avoid civilian casualties. When it does happen from our point of view it is a failure. We conduct inquiries, we investigate the forces to see if they acted appropriately. We do not say the Palestinian people are our enemy.”

-- snip --

source

[pelsar]

6. it wasnt the first time.....

that some brave palestenains have tried to stop them.....they have little support from the authorities. In fact they grow strawberries in Gaza now because they are low growing plants that the kassam firing jihadnikims cant use for cover.

That said the options to stop them from the israeli point of view are almost non existant. Its either use artilary and missles to limit the firing and keep the pressure up on them or do nothing.

If israel were to do nothing, those firing would then have more time to fire, take their time, use spotters and adjust aim.....that would obviously increase their kill percentage...(but hell, thats probably better than israel shooting artillary)

maybe the palestenains/hamas should figure out a way to stop their own from firing?......seems to me their breaking all kinds of laws, human rights rules....the onus is upon them

neighborhood watch groups?

[idontwantaname]

13. neighborhood watch group would be good...

it would need to be in conjunction with the IDF though... as you dont want those in the neighborhood watch group being killed by snipers or artillery.

[TheGoldenRule01]

12. That Is So Sad

It seems as if militants are deliberately firing from 'civilian' areas does'nt it? Its a shame for the ordinary people of Palestine who are just simply trying to exist.

[Englander]

4. Mofaz = war criminal.

So, there is that aspect to consider, that the shelling, which is a vindicative/ineffective
response to the militant attacks, *will* result in more civilian fatalities.

[pelsar]

7. its obvious

shoot from civilian areas...use civilians as human shields (isnt that a war crime in England?).....they're going to get hurt.

Effective?...sure it is, unless of course one feels that aiming better, using spotters to adjust your aim (basic stuff for those who understand over the horizon shooting) and killing and terrorizing more israelis is a good thing....

for some it is

[Violet_Crumble]

8. I didn't realise Palestinian children were firing rockets...

shoot from civilian areas...use civilians as human shields (isnt that a war crime in England?).....they're going to get hurt.

It's innocent civilians getting hurt, pelsar. You said in another post in this thread that firing rockets at Israel was a human rights violation. Why isn't Israel firing rockets at homes in Gaza considered a human rights violation as well?

Retaliation is an ugly thing that lowers the retaliator to the same level as those they're retaliating against....

Violet...

[pelsar]

10. yes theyre both "violations"

yet its one group that has the key for the stopping of it....guess which one?

the "i didnt realize kids are doing the shooting"...is a very poor response to the situation, its either ignorence to where the rockets are being shot from, lack of knowlege of the imprecision of artillery, or an attempt to say israel targets children....)


israel is not retaliating.....its not vengence....if israel does nothing, it means the jihanikim will be able to move their rockets closer to the fence, or sit behind the apt, have a spotter on the roof...take their time, shoot, adjust angles...shoot again, bracket the house and then hit it...


thats as i understand is whats being suggested....not a comforting thought if you live along the 67 border


and of course with the katushas...ashkelon and its apt buildings are now in range

[Malikshah]

17. Ah, both are violations but only one is guilty.

OK-- makes perfect sense.

That whole monopoly on morality and victimhood game.

Yup. Now *there's* a healthy solution to the problem.

[pelsar]

20. one side is the obvious cause

and one side can stop and end it....the palestenains. Israel did first move, left gaza, (dont forget they can go to/visit/trade with egypt and the world whenever they feel like it....its called border)

and israels reward was on the very first day 30 missles....and ever since them attempts to kill israelis who are living within the 67 border...(but then that really doesnt mean anything anyway...)

[Malikshah]

27. That is complete and total balderdash

One side is not the obvious cause. Not even to those blinded by their one-sided views.

Shame on those that educated you.
I'd get my money back.

The attempts at humor, sarcasm, etc. are quite pathetic and not helpful to a useful discussion.

Both sides have a lot to answer for. Israel can not play the victim. Flapan, Shlaim, Morris and others have shown this in their research, and yet there will be those who have their blinders on.

The problem here is that this ignorance is dangerous due to its complete and total removal from reality.

Things to learn about before one comes back to discuss issues.

Checkpoint policies
Closure policies
Targeted assassinations
Killing of moderates (i.e. Abu Jihad)
Water rights
Agricultural rights
Settlement policies
Flechette weaponry

These affect all in Gaza

BTW responding with the victimhood ploy has been done to death. Try a new tactic--it might actually result in decent discourse.

[pelsar]

34. its now april 2006

all the palestenains in gaza have to do is stop trying to kill israelis......

your list is out of date:
no checkpoints,
no closures (cant close the egyptian/palestenains border
assinsations were stopped for a while...even while the kassams kept flying
water is theirs (their acquifer)
they can grow what they like
no settlements
no flechettes being used


israel is not a victim...if the palestenians want to live in peace....they should try switching tactics...(and those defending them should understand the current situation in april 2006 and not pretend that its 2004)

[Malikshah]

35. Error message

if the palestenians want to live in peace....they should try switching tactics.

Uh. It's Palestinians. No matter, as one should change the noun to Israelis.

5 marks out of 10

[pelsar]

37. israel did that....

left gaza...and found nothing changed: the palestenians still keep trying to kill israelis....be via missles or the more traditional infiltration and attack the nearest kibbutz home...

oh and your list.....perhaps you can explain how its relevant to april 2006 in Gaza?

[Malikshah]

40. Relevance???

I'm not one to explain to others how to breathe and perform other autonomic functions.

The idea that April 2006 relevancy would be used in the argument would be laughable if it wasn't so disheartening.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[pelsar]

43. relevance of dates?

guess you dont seem to understand the conflict very well:

according to your list israel still has settlements in gaza, roadblocks etc....wrong year. or perhaps you can explain how your list relates to gaza in April 2006?

[Burning Water]

85. What tactics should they try?

Building gas chambers and lining up for the treatment? Going back to Europe? AGreeing to live under Muslim law?

What tactics are you suggesting that do not add up to surrender?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Both sides have the key for stopping it...

Both sides have to halt the violence. Screw any partisan crap where fevered attempts are made to totally blame one side..

Excuse me, but me replying to yr comment 'shoot from civilian areas...use civilians as human shields (isnt that a war crime in England?).....they're going to get hurt.' needs to have it pointed out that the people being hurt are civilians. And despite some comments I've seen made in this forum, the lives of Palestinian civilians are every bit as valuable as Israeli ones, and I think it's time one or two people stopped and thought about that...

Of course Israel is retaliating. I posted a link to an article in this thread where Mofaz said: "As long as it's not quiet here (in Israel), it won't be quiet there (in Gaza),"

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=183001...


Violet...

[pelsar]

25. what is the israeli key?

to stopping the violence from gaza?....it cant be not shooting artillary, because even when israel doesnt the kassams keep coming, nor would it be the helicopter attacks, since they too are not a constant.....there is but a single consistant aspect here: and thats the attempts to kill israelis in within the 67 borders around gaza...shooting of the kassams, and the infiltration attempts.

its pretty obvious that the gaza situation is pretty black and white, all the palestenains have to do is stop shooting and so too will israel. the palestenains farmers should also stop trying to infiltrate past israels 67 borders and they wont get shot.....

i never claimed that israeli lives have any greater net worth than the palestenains...i will however claim a vast difference between looking for families and kids inorder to kill them vs attempting not to and calling off attacks when it many will be killed.

Israel has now done two "actions" for the palestenains: leaving gaza, not retailiating at every kassam and in fact for over a month limiting the return fire to open fields

the palestenain response?....more kassams.

[Englander]

29. Absolute nonsense.

I don't know what the source for yer 'info' is, but the claims made are completely
at odds with any sources I've seen. The claims yer making are utterly at odds with any
objective reading of the situation, the claims being made aren't accurate, informed,
objective, credible or reasonable, at all. They are, frankly, deluded nonsense.

Gaza is being hit by naval barrages, & 200 artillery shells/day, the range for those
shells has been increased, residential areas *are* being targeted, which *will* result
in civilian fatalities. Gaza has not been 'left' by Isreal, the exclusive control of
Gaza's airspace and territorial waters and the Israeli-Gaza border, has been kept, by
Isreal. It's an abuse of language to claim that means Gaza has been left, no matter how
many times that absurd claim is made, it's still an absurd claim. The GoI retains control
over Gaza's airspace and territorial waters and the Israeli-Gaza border.

[pelsar]

30. funny how the egyptian/palestenain border is forgotten....

and yes israel has actual control over the israeli border...such a terrible terrible crime.....you should however watch your dates...last week?..the week previous to that....all that was targeted were open fields where the kassams were launched...and those launches been increasing with the additions of katuhas.....but why bother with details

you know the same type of missles that have been launched almost everyday from gaza starting from the first day israel pulled out?...yes those kassams.

it might just be an idea for the palestenains to stop shooting....who knows, israel might just stop replying....of course they might just want to stop trying to infiltrate into israels 67 border as well...but i suppose thats too much to ask.

[Englander]

33. Witless nonsense.

Seriously, if you want to try the mind-reading/attempts at humour, then go right ahead,
but you do run the risk of coming across as v. ignorant, & a bit of a fuckwit, really.
Which is something to consider, isn't it? It doesn't help with regards to any discussion,
if you want to just rely on talking points, & misplaced attempts at humour, that's fair
enough, but it really doesn't help your case, in the slightest.

[Andromeda]

47. Sometimes humor is the best way to deflect ignorance.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I generally operate that way...

..but it helps for there to be some humour there in the first place, which I didn't see in this case...

Violet...

[Englander]

61. It is, but only if humour is used to counter ignorance.

If humour was lacking, whilst ignorance was not, ignorance isn't 'deflected', is it?
btw, ignorance isn't an admirable character trait, wouldn't you agree?

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I've already spelt it out...

Both sides have to end the violence, pelsar. There is no justification for the violence coming from the militant groups or from the IDF.

Sorry, but when the IDF targets residential areas and kills children in the process, there's very little difference between them and the Qassam firers. When someone aims at a residential area and claims they weren't trying to kill civilians, they're full of shit. It's the same as the US targetting that wedding party in Iraq and claiming it was going after terrorists. End result is that innocent civilians die due to the complete lack of concern for their lives by the govts in question...

Violet...

[pelsar]

56. self delete...double post

[pelsar]

57. israels tried that.....

when israel tried the "lesser violent methods"....sonic booms....artillary in open fields, warning shots...

all we got in return was missles (and the usual condemnations) so shall i assume that palestenain firing and the israelis doing nothing that effects that as acceptable?

it is if there is no alternative


the other option as per your suggestion is the evacuation of all of the israeli residents along the 67 border.....

[Englander]

62. That's a grotesque misrepresentation of the stated views.

*Again*.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Nothing justifies attacks on civilians...

And that applies to any attempt to justify them by saying that nothing else worked so seeing there's no alternative, it's justifiable.

From B'tselem:

International humanitarian law prohibits attacks from within or near densely populated areas, and prohibits using civilians as "human shields." These prohibitions are intended to prevent harm to civilians as a result of counterattacks. Palestinian organizations that attack Israel from within or near such residential areas are violating these prohibitions and demonstrating indifference to the wellbeing of civilians.

The Palestinian Authority has the obligation to prevent all attacks against Israeli civilian targets, including attacks from within Palestinian residential areas. In failing to take measures against these attacks, the Palestinian Authority is neglecting its responsibility to protect civilians who are not taking part in the conflict.

At the same time, according to international humanitarian law, this violation does not grant permission to the military to treat areas from which shelling originates as a legitimate military target. The Basic Rule of the laws of war obligates parties to a conflict to direct their operations only at military objectives, to take all feasible precautions to avoid harming civilians, and to avoid actions that are likely to cause "incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof" which is "excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". Therefore, the official response of the military that "responsibility rests first of all with the civilians themselves" is both appalling and without any legal foundation.

(I bolded the most important paragraph)

http://www.btselem.org/English/Firearms/20060411_Shell_Kills_Gaza_Girl.asp

btw, my suggestion of temporarily evacuating of Israeli towns close to the border was one of several I made, and it must be remembered that it was made in a thread where not a word of opposition was being aired by some over the comments by an Israeli minister that Gazans should be forced to flee by bombing them out of their homes...

Violet...

[pelsar]

78. evacuate N. Gaza...

so can i suggest that since you are against israel shelling gaza...and since nothing it appears will stop the palestenains from shooting at israelis...


then you might be for the palestenains evacuating their own homes so that israel can actually shoot at the missle shooters without hurting civilans?

or is the current situation preferable where the palestentians SHOULD be able to shoot at israelis with impunity since israel cannot shoot back with any justification. i belive that is the reality your are suggesting as the best course of action "on the ground"....

or the israelis should be punished by evacuating their homes....

who should evacuate (as per one of your suggestions): israelis or palestenains?

decisions, even if they are non decisions have consequences, the above are yours.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. I'll repeat what I just said...

The reason I suggested the temporary evacuation of Israeli towns close to the border with Gaza was because there was no opposition voiced in that thread by 'supporters of Israel' at an Israeli govt minister advocating forcing Gazans to flee their homes by bombing them out of them. So I'm wondering to myself why the outrage out of my suggestion when there was NOTHING at all about what the Israeli minister suggested?

Violet...

[pelsar]

82. i usually dont comment on mid level politicians...

be it hamas or israeli....

nor am i suggesting "outrage" at your suggestion...however your suggestion that israeli responses that may cause civilian causulties are "forbidden"....then leaves israel without options:

either evacuation or let its citizens be terrorized...you perhaps may not like either option but i cant think of anything else that your suggestion may bring

so in that light, why should the israelis be punished?...they are after all behind the famous 67 border?

[Englander]

14. Reactionary nonsense.

Mofaz = war criminal. Deliberately shelling, 300/day, civilian areas = war crime.
Deliberate shelling, which *will* kill innocents, & is a vindictive response, aimed
at innocents = war crime. Deliberate shelling of civilian areas, in the full knowledge,
that there *will* be innocents killed = war crime.

[pelsar]

15. some prefer/want israelis to be killed

we already know that.....

some of us israelis just dont feel like be killed so some people in europe can feel good about their politics....

[Violet_Crumble]

24. And clearly some prefer/want Palestinians to be killed...

Thankfully most folk here at DU don't want/prefer anyone to be killed....

I have a question about any stance that any criticism of Israels current actions means posters prefer/want Israelis to be killed. For people who feel that way and refuse to see that most people they're talking to don't want/prefer anyone to be killed, wouldn't that mean that the people holding such a black and white 'it's either them or us' attitude be preferring/wanting Palestinians to be killed? Using their own logic, that's what it seems to lead to. And if that's the case, I'd be asking why Israeli lives are deemed more valuable than Palestinian ones...

Violet...

[pelsar]

31. the preference.....

if israel is criticized for every military action it does...and the palestenains are not..the obvious conclusion is that the palestenains can keep on attacking and israel should do nothing (you will note almost no criticism of the palestenians outside of my posts here)....as you know my quest for suggestions for the IDF always comes up empty.


or in a more extreme case recently, a poster seemed to be upset that the IDF killed two palestenian carrying bombs as they crossed the border from gaza to israel...Obvously in his view, its preferable for the IDF to do nothing while the palestenains go about planting their bombs in order to kill israelis...hence the obvious preference to kill israelis.

or a previous posts that mentions "something to the affect that israel shouldnt retailiate since it is "beneath them"...well thats a nice moral stance, however the result of that is that israel should do nothing while the kassams are shot, angles modified and aim perfected..and more israelis terrorized and killed....

so where one has an "even moral stand or not" the preference seems for the israelis to do nothing while being attacked...hence the preference for them to be killed, rather than 'escalate and kill palestenains"

you question however is a fair one in terms of "valuable"...whereas in the nice world of peaceful civilization where everyone is equal, there is a no difference, in a war zone, there is.... Ask the medic who he treats first, his own or the enemy...a civilian or his buddy?

so whereas if you ask me who lives are more valuable i will say neither, if however if i am in position of defending "my own" from being killed at the cost of the "other" than i shall defend..and so a value is put on lives.

especially in this case, where the "other" actually has the power to stop it.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. You cannot expect anyone else to place more value on Israeli lives...

..and that is what yr arguments have come down to: a preference for the killing of Palestinian civilians in retribution for rocket attacks which haven't resulted in the deaths of any Israelis over the past few weeks...

And I'll repeat again. No-one in this forum has expressed a preference for Israelis to be killed. And no-one in this forum goes on about 'evil Israelis'...

Violet....

[pelsar]

54. yes they do....

indirectly.....

the comments here are that israel should do nothing while the palestenains shoot missles and infiltrate into israel to plant bombs etc...that is an indirect preference fo israelis to suffer over palestenians.

the kassams have been flying over since israel left gaza(one killed several hurt).....anybody here say "the palestenains must stop terrorizing israelis" (within the bunch that regulary criticizes israel?)....anyone? if so i must have missed it, so please point me to the post.

as far as the evil israelis....when the comments are "israel has gutted gaza, prison camp gaza, etc etc etc....the intention is to avoid the facts and paint us israelis as evil....i dont accept such lies.

These people wont come out and say it straight,....hence its done indirectly.

in answer to your question if i expect anyone to put more value on israeli lives, the answer is no, ......nor do i even expect many here to even consider israeli lives equal to that of the palestenians, given that any attempt that israel does to defend itself be it violent or not is condemed,

[Violet_Crumble]

75. No they don't...

Not even indirectly...

Using yr own logic when it comes to deciding that people who are honest and say they don't know a solution are wanting dead Israelis must lead you to acknowledge that the same logic leads to Israel's attacks on residential areas meaning that anyone supporting that action is indirectly wanting dead Palestinians...

anybody here say "the palestenains must stop terrorizing israelis" (within the bunch that regulary criticizes israel?)....anyone? if so i must have missed it, so please point me to the post.

Assuming that I'm within the group you think regularly criticises Israel, I've said it very clearly quite a few times. In fact, in this very thread, I've said they've got to stop...

Violet...

[Englander]

80. Well, that's abundantly clear.

That the accusations made weren't actually based on anything that's been posted, or anything
that's been said, either directly, or indirectly, or even subtly. It just hasn't happened, it's
clear the accusations were a grotesque strawman, without any basis in reality.

[pelsar]

83. a preference for "their dead"

yes same logic works both ways....since its an "either or situation"....one side wins one side loses, I prefer the citizens of the society that is trying to kill me to be dead.....if thats what it takes to keep us alive.

the society i live in does not have the power to stop the kassams without causing more palestenains to die. If we do nothing (as in nothing that works), as is i believe your suggestion, then it is us that is terrorized and killed....or do you disagree with that?

it may be hard to accept, but in some situations the options are between bad and worse...such is the case with this one.

israel does nothing: israelis are terrorized and killed
israel attacks, palestenians are terrorized and killed

its one or the other....the third option is that the palestenains dont shoot....and nobody is then terrorized and killed

you have made it very clear that israel should not "retaliat" or otherwise attempt to supress the fire.....that too is very clear: the palestenains should be able to shoot without fear of being killed.... (it may not be your intention, but thats the result of your belief)

at this point i did not mention the option of evacuation.....so which group evacuates?...the problem remains the same, one group has to "pay" for the missles being shot.

[Englander]

84. Is this intended as satire, in a Swiftian stylee?

Please say that it is.

[Englander]

81. So, ignore 'them', dismiss 'them'.

('Them' being these un-named Isreal-bashers.)

If you've concluded that these characters are 'liars', or intent on portraying Israel as
'evil', then why waste time on 'them'?

[DELUSIONAL]

9. "unprovoked" -- what are you smoking?

[pelsar]

11. your so right...

israel left gaza....thats reason enough to start trying to kill those israelis living along the 67 border

anyway why is israel bothering those who are shooting the rockets....all that pressure on them means that cant aim and adjust properly..and increase their kill percentages

[Malikshah]

18. Israel left gaza...need to finish the sentence

as an open air prison.

Gutted it.
Bombs the hell out of it still.

Wow. Bizarro world is quite the place to hang out. (in ComicBook Guy's voice)

[pelsar]

19. my how word definitions get changed.....(those evil israelis again)

gutted it?...where?...bombs the "hell out it?..really?..gaza city is now flattened? as in chechnyia?.....

[Malikshah]

28. Wow-- play the victim much?

Trying to see in my previous post where I used the term "evil"-- nope not there.

******baaaamp*****

So sorry, try again.

[pelsar]

32. no victim here....

just dont like it when defintions get "raped"

as an open air prison.

Gutted it.
Bombs the hell out of it still.

whats been gutted?....whats been bombed the hell out of?...didnt know prisons have an open border to egypt....

[Malikshah]

36. Wow-- the R word was used as well. Here's a new word of the day

hyperbole

n : extravagant exaggeration


Cries of victimhood are as cries of victimhood do

[pelsar]

38. so explain...

i seem you skipped over the answer:..here i'll write again...perhaps some kind definition is required?
___________________________
Gutted it.
Bombs the hell out of it still.
____________________________
whats been gutted?....whats been bombed the hell out of?...didnt know prisons have an open border to egypt....

[Malikshah]

39. 300 shells a day....is that clear enough

or would you prefer the images of the dead? That'd be harder to come by, as the Western media tends to overlook dead Palestinians.

BTW enjoy this-- I am not amenable to the "distract" tactics and "riddle me this" games folks like to play-- usually it's done when they have nothing of value to discuss, were defeated in an argument, or, hopefully, are slowly coming to the realization that they need to actually value all human lives.

[pelsar]

42. not very accurate are you.....

lets see...gaza has one of the most dense populations in the world...and israel acccording to you has "gutted it".....yet i believe we have seen less than 20 dead....

300 shells a day in open unpopulated fields is hardly "gutting gaza"


this is hardly a "distract' tactic..you've made an accusation and now i'm asking you to back it up with some kind of facts.....

[Malikshah]

44. I'll give you this... you're persistent.

Not thorough or accurate or always on point. But persistent.

Wow. To kill 20 since last Friday. hmmm Guess it's OK cause, hey it's just 20 killed. What's 20 people. Only 20 family members...yeah, what's the diff. Only 20 souls...won't be missed. Only20 lives filled with love hate life experiences snuffed out. Yup. not worth a plug nickel.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[cali]

45. E.M. Forester once wrote

"Only hypocrite cannot forgive hypocricy." Maybe he should have added that hypocrites tend not to see their own hypocricy. You're every bit as prone to use hyperbole as Pelsar. Yes, the 20 deaths are terrible. I don't support the ongoing shelling of Gaza, but you totally discount the other side of the story. I don't know what the answer is, but I do feel that more of the burden lies on Israel. They have far greater resources and far more power than the Palestinians. But Pelar is right about your use of language. Gaza has not been gutted by the shelling. Try taking the beam out of your own eye.

[Malikshah]

46. Literary references, alas, do not always make an effective post.

As for the "you're being one-sided" ploy. Been there. done that. Got the bloody t-shirt.

In other words-- there was no implication whatsoever that Israeli deaths were being discounted . . .
except by someone who wishes to interepret the fact that because every death of a Palestinian is not discussed in the same breath as the death of an Israel--that this is "one-sided" Hmmm. The old "victimhood mentality" is seeping through.

In fact-- it's downright offensive *to me* to see that in this day and age this whole "but they did it too" game goes on and on. One reason may be the aforesaid "victimhood monopoly" phenomenon. Of course this mentality manifests itself in numerous other ways.

Oh-- and when did I refer to Gaza being Gutted by shelling... yet another false claim. (I even rechecked to verify---the whole trust, but verify game) Read my posts, at the very least, before you make accusations.

There are numerous ways to gut an object.

"Try taking the beam"... oh, please.

Here's a beam for folks to gnaw on.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EVOD-6MVK6M?OpenDocument

Bless your heart--it appears that some cannot help being trite. But one doesn't need to trot out the trite right away.


Enjoy the oblivion

[pelsar]

55. i prefer the truth over exagerations....

lets start with your 'gutted comment"....two aspects:

since Gaza has access to Egypt (theres a whole souther border) the palestenains are not being "gutted by israel" in terms of food. They can bring in all they like via the egypt.


The problem with "gutting gaza with artillary" is that it would mean flattening cities....which obviously never happen. I dont belittle those that have suffered in gaza and the families that have lost members etc. but theres more to it than that.

but perhaps there another version of "gutted" that i didnt understand?...

i'm also however aware that the kassams that are fired everyday (and katusha) are getting closer to ashkelon a city with over a 100,000 inhabitants,not to mention the usual cities and kibbutzim under attack from the kassams....so far they've killed a child, terrorized many. I get the impression that these are irrelevant to you (just an impression)......better yet, how about a suggestion to us israelis.....

should we do nothing while the kassams fly over..and just wait to be killed?..or ________________ (fill in the blank)



and of course yo did mention that gaza is now a big prison....what happened to the access to the world via egypt

_________________________________

so perhaps you would could explain how the palestenain/egyptian border seems to be irrelevant?....

[Englander]

66. Wow, absurdist rhetoric/talking points are the 'truth'?

Prejudiced nonsense/strawmen are the 'truth'? Grotesque misreadings of the situation
are the 'truth'? Deluded fantasy is the 'truth'? Mon dieu!

[cali]

68. Expressing contempt

doesn't make an effective argument make. You're still hypocritical. You employed hyperbole.
Your opinion is counter to mine, but it's sitll merely opinion, not fact. Don't like my use of the quote, no problem. Don't think you aren't governed by your own bias like everyone else? Codswallop. Offended that people view events though their own lens? Laughable. And crudely naive. It appears that some can't grasp the basic fact that none of us has a sole franchise on the truth.

[Malikshah]

69. Let the accusations reign down.

Hypocritcal... hmmm. Trite use of sound-bite language not backed up by any meaningful discourse.

"It appears that some can't grasp the basic fact that none of us has a sole franchise on the truth."

I could not have said it better -- it appears my point was received. Too bad it was in an assbackward fashion.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[cali]

70. Heh.

Now you're just amusing. We could continue this rather meaningless tit for tat, but I fail to see that it serves any purpose. Love your creative spelling and your trite repetition of your little catch phrase there:

Enjoy the oblivion. Heh.

[Malikshah]

71. I'd love to discuss issues with folks, if they'd only stop

trotting out the stale old talking points and using the "offensive" (vs. defensive) form of argumentation (i.e. "Well, define this..." "What do you mean by "x" ...")

Then there are those who wish to misrepresent a person's post. Slather on a healthy helping of what they consider rapier sharp ripostes (now, I find *those* quite amusing) (e.g., "raped," etc.)

In other words-- when you clear away all the detritus, you end up with a great big vacuous vacuum of vapidity masking itself as self-righteous rejoinders with only a tenuous grasp on reality or issues related to the topic at hand.

I hate to disappoint folks, but I am ready to discuss the issue of the constant shelling of the Gaza Strip, the humanitarian crisis therein, and the issue surrounding Israel's "bait-and-switch" unilateral deployment from the area (replete with over the top wailing and gnashing of teeth by settlers from Gaza and the West Bank)

But...

unless folks wish to discuss the issues--with evidence and not name-calling--I'll be happy to continue to wish people the best and to urge them to enjoy oblivion (For, you see, that is where they are headed in a corporeal sense--as are we all-- it's just that some have already appeared to have reached it intellectually-- at least in my estimation based upon some folks' attempt to discuss the issue.)

So...

Enjoy oblivion

[pelsar]

72. except you dont seem to know how..

i believe this was your post:


Gutted it.
Bombs the hell out of it still.....

perhaps an explanation of what "gutted it" is supposed to mean?...you wrote it. My impression?...something that is supposed to bring an image of something like chechniya or berlin, when in fact the situation is not even close...but thats just my impression. perhaps you could enlighten us if my impression is wrong?

[Malikshah]

73. Persistent is as persistent does

"what 'gutted it' is supposed to mean?" Hmm I seem to recall my previous post referring to such methodology.

I also see that I posted an article regarding the situation that deals with it.

In other words-- the "I know you are but what am I" ruse is 1) tiresome 2) ineffective 3)bordering on infantile. I do not believe that this is the impression one desires to convey--after all we're all adults here. The methodology and ruses used, however, do point in the that direction.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[pelsar]

58. Cali.....

I enjoy reading your comments as they tend to take a realistic and honest view of the situation:

I don't know what the answer is, but I do feel that more of the burden lies on Israel. They have far greater resources and far more power than the Palestinians

That comment in itself says a lot. And i really hate when i read exagerations, or comments that tend to the "hyperbole" as it immediatly removes the possibility to have a decent discussion. The latest round being that israel has made gaza into a prison camp and has closed down the entrances, while totally ignoring the egyptian border and its ports, as if they dont exist.

That said, i'm assuming my "hyperbole" is generally around my "evil israeli" comments. I usually bring that up when israel is painted as being somekind of superpower with the power to end the confict and instead of doing so, prefers to have the palestenian suffer.... i have found that if I attempt to bring the discussion some simple facts and use simple words and deal with the limitations of technology and human decisions i am dismissed as being ignorent (a comment i always find interesting since i am actually involved). hence the comment. Probably more of defense mechanism, but then it seems to be appropriate as it seems that any and all israeli actions are condemmed roundly here...even when two palestenain infiltrators carrying bombs were killed as the crossed the border, that too was condemmed. I guess to some here, those palestenains should have been left alone to plant their bombs, kill israelis and then return home-that would have be a fair scenario for some here. Given that, I find myself at a loss of logical words to explain how that is not really a "good thing"

[Violet_Crumble]

76. What did Cali's comment say to you?

I thought her comment that you mentioned: 'I don't know what the answer is, but I do feel that more of the burden lies on Israel. They have far greater resources and far more power than the Palestinians.' is very true. There's no exaggeration or hyperbole involved in that one at all from what I can see...

Violet...

[pelsar]

59. self delete...double post

[Englander]

63. It appears this grotesque mispresentation is contagious.

Here we have another case, of stated views being mangled, & false claims being made. No-one
said 'Gaza has been gutted by the shelling'. That wasn't the claim, at all.

[pelsar]

65. your defintion?

Gutted it.
Bombs the hell out of it still
_________________


perhaps its language problem....how would you define: Gutted it, bombs the hell out of it....

[Violet_Crumble]

23. There's one problem...

In all these many posts of outrage about 'trying to kill Israelis' it's not once been pointed out that right now Israel is actually killing Palestinians...

Violet...

[pelsar]

26. we're better at it....

which in fact is also why so few palestenains are actually killed......relative to what could be.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Yeah, we should all be grateful Israel doesn't blanket-bomb Gaza...

:eyes:

[pelsar]

60. "they would"

if those shooting the rockets had that option...do you doubt that they would?

[Violet_Crumble]

77. If the situation was reversed...

..and it was the Palestinians occupying Israel and the Israelis who were the weak ones, I have no doubt that we'd be seeing exactly what we're seeing now...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Israel Defends Policy After Girl's Death

What makes it clear to me that what Israel is doing is no better than the actions of those who fire rockets at Israel:

'In a major policy shift, it has begun allowing guns to fire close enough to hit populated areas. That change claimed the life of Hadil Ghaben, 8, on Monday, after two shells blew huge holes in a concrete block house in Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip. The girl's mother and seven siblings were hurt in the attack.

"As long as it's not quiet here (in Israel), it won't be quiet there (in Gaza)," Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Tuesday.'

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1830014

[Tom Joad]

16. Time to ramp up the killing. More funerals will bring "peace"

the peace of cemeteries. Sharon Lives in Olmert's policies.

[pelsar]

21. yes...

those missles coming from gaza are sharons legacy....he left gaza to the palestenains and is israel is now receiving their just reward.

of course there are those who prefer the IDF not to react, so more israelis can be killed...but that just some.....

[TheGoldenRule01]

41. Empathy?

I think some people here are overlooking what was/is the genocidal policies of some Palestinian groups backed by much of the Arab world. It was in response to their genocidal policies that Israel occupied the disputed territories. Now, that has obviously further inflamed tensions and some attacks on Israel by Palestinian militants can be ascribed to anger and frustration and the day to day horror of living under military occupation by A.N. Other. I and i hope others can try to empathize with that. But surely that genocidal 'hope' of killing Jews and wiping Israel off the map pre 1967 has not not magically vanished. A glimpse at a Hamas charter will tell us otherwise. I find it hard to understand why people cannot try to empathize with Israel's just right to protect its citizens from being "wiped off the map". Of course it matters "who started it"...its generally called a 'declaration of war'. Should Poland have not bothered to defend itself from naked German aggression just in case "some Germans got killed?" I am confident in the overall morality and just cause of the Israeli's - if the Palestinians make a concerted effort to recognize Israel and stop trying to kill Israeli's then all this conflict will be but a distant dream.

[Andromeda]

48. Thank you,

and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Englander]

64. Uh-oh!

I think some-one just received the kiss o'death!

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Factuality?

Before overusing the term 'genocide' it'd be preferable that the term is understood as being something that's not merely there as a cool term to use when trying to demonise those who are considered the 'bad guys', but a term that has a distinct legal meaning. The fact is that there is/was nothing genocidal in the policies of surrounding Arab states, and genocide isn't something that has touched the Arab/Israeli conflict....

If it matters to you "who started it", how about you look back further than the 1960's and look towards the first half of the 20th century. The creation of the state of Israel was accompanied by the dispossession of most of the Palestinian population of what became Israel, or do you think that's no big deal?

If yr confident in the overall morality and just cause of the Israeli's, can you please explain what that just cause is? Is it to continue to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank? Coz that's not just or moral? Is it to continue to make the lives of Palestinian civilians unbearable? That's not just or moral either? So, what is this just cause?

Violet...