Israel Considers Options After Bombing

[Terra Terra]

Israel's leaders held the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority responsible for the deadliest suicide bombing in 20 months but stopped short Tuesday of branding it an "enemy entity" or ordering a large-scale military operation.

Monday's blast, which killed nine other people and wounded dozens outside a packed Tel Aviv fast-food restaurant, was carried out by a bomber from the Islamic Jihad militant group. However, Hamas leaders defended the attack as a justified response to Israeli "aggression" against the Palestinians.

The bomb, laced with nails and other projectiles, shattered car windshields, smashed windows of nearby buildings and blew away the restaurant's sign. Glass shards and blood splattered the ground. Police said the guard was torn in half by the blast.

In Gaza, Islamic Jihad militants handed out pastries on the streets in celebration.

More at link

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_26;_ylt=AqhWRQJsl4PhnnYhZh4sokAUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Islamic Jihad handed out pastries in Gaza in celebration. Have the Israelis ever handed out candy and pastries after a military operation in Gaza or the West Bank? What a bunch of sick, twisted individuals. Israel should consider having artillery on standby after suicide bombings. When cretins start handing out candy and pastries to celebrate the suicide bombings I can't think of a more appropriate target than those who participate in the celebrations.

[RethugAssKicker]

1. Israel DID attack... They bombed innocents in the Gaza Strip...

They are now considering whether they should actually try to bomb HAMAS leaders!!

[Terra Terra]

2. There is a difference

Plestinian suicide bombers deliberately target civilians in an attempt to kill as many innocents as possible. Of course, in there eyes there are no innocent Israelis, so that statement holds no water with them. Israel does not deliberately target civilians. If they did, Palestinian casualties would be thousands of times greater than they are. If you can't see the difference in intentions then the whole point is moot.

[idontwantaname]

3. intentions

while the IDF claims they dont intentionally target civialians, youll find aprox 75% of people injured or killed are not the militants theyre initially targeting...

[Terra Terra]

4. And when civilians are killed...

Are there celebrations in the streets of Israel?

[idontwantaname]

6. revenge is a sweet victory

im sure some are happy they "hit their target" and i know many are not happy because it just makes life harder for them when israel retaliates.

[Tom Joad]

17. What you are suggesting is that Israel carry out war crimes.

And yes, there is celebration in Israel regarding attacks on civilians in Israel.
But even more so here in DU. You seem to relish the possibilty of killing as many Palestinians as possible.

What you are proposing is of course a war crime. War Crimes are still war crimes, even after Bush/Sharon and all the rest, there are lines we should not cross. (I do not suggest that the mere advocacy is a war crime, but it carried out would be a war crime... like the difference of advocating lynching and doing something to make it happen, there is a legal distinction)

What we should be doing here, for those who care about human life and the well-being of the people of the people of the Middle East, is calling for an end to all attacks on civilians, be they Palestinians or Israelis.

The I/P forum should not be a place to advocate the killing of civilians.

[Terra Terra]

18. It's only a war crime if war is declared

In this case it would be a criminal act on par with the suicide bombings, unless you want to start calling the suicide bombings war crimes. I do not relish the possibilty of killing as many Palestinians as possible. However, how else can Israel make those who would support suicide bombings against civilians understand the barbarity of the crime? How would Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa, et al, not to mention the Palestinian people, react if Israel started indiscriminately targeting "soft targets" like restaurants and shops with no advance warning and attacked them repeatedly for years on end? For that matter, how would the rest of the world react? Would they call for the Palestinians to stop provoking Israel by sending suicide bombers into Israel? Would they "understand" why Israel did it, responding to years of Palestinian suicide bombers attacking civilian targets? Or would Israel be summarily condemned for specifically targeting civilians (and rightly so), regardless of the reasons offered by Israel? I think we both know the answer to this question.

[Tom Joad]

19. Now you are sounding Like Bush attorneys defending torture.

[Terra Terra]

22. The question remains though:

Based on your definition, are suicide bombings war crimes? If they are, what should be the repurcussions for the entity that encourages them?

[Tom Joad]

24. All attacks against civilians are crimes.

All attacks against civilians are crimes.
How many times do i need to repeat that?

Obviously, you and i disagree on this, because your opening remark was that Israel should attack civilians. Something it has been doing for decades. Not only is it wrong, it does not serve the purpose for which it is supposedly intended.

There is still violent resistance to occupation and dispossession. Maybe as an alternative, Israel should really give up totally the occupation of West Bank and Gaza, and let Palestinians live in peace. Not a mere relocation within other parts of occupied territory, but a real giving up the occupation.

[Terra Terra]

25. Your statement is disingenuous

"...Israel should attack civilians. Something it has been doing for decades."

Certainly Israel has killed civilians, but they have not, as a policy, purposely targeted civilians, unlike the Palestinians. If they did, there would have been millions of Palestinian deaths over the past decase, rather than a few thousand.

i agree with you that attacks against civilians are crimes, but so far all actions that Israel has taken to stop suicide bombings has failed. If a country refuses to match the intensity of its adversary in conflict it is doomed to failure.

Didn't Israel give up Gaza a few months ago, and didn't they just announce that they were leaving the West Bank in a few months? What concessions have the Palestinians made towards Israel? Have they become more aggressive in trying to stop attacks against Israel? on the contrary, they said Israel deserved it. Personally I think they should both go stand in the corner for a couple hundred years until they can calm down.

[idontwantaname]

27. *cough* what?

since sept 2000, 3367 palestinians have been killed by the IDF.

additionally israel announced they would unilaterally withdraw from strategic places in the west bank... but would keep certain (very hostile) settlements intact.

[Terra Terra]

28. As I said...

3,367 Palestinians killed in 6 years. That's less than 600 per year. If Israel started purposely targeting civilians, is there any doubt that number would not be at least 10 times that? Probably more like 100 times. Neither side is without fault, that is a given. However, if you factor in intent, such as targeting civilians on purpose versus killing civilians when striking at Islamic Jihad operatives who live among the civilian population, for me it becomes obvious which side has more credibility. Couple that with the fact that of the two factions, I only saw one faction (the Palestinians) dancing in the streets following the attacks of September 11, and it only makes it harder for me to support the Palestinian cause.

[idontwantaname]

29. why cant we all get along

the fact israel is militarily occupying(much as the US is doing in iraq) and youre ok that ~600/year get killed is somewhat shocking... especially considering 26,000 palestinians are injured in missile assassinations, daily incursions ect... for a grand total of ~29,000 lives directly affected in six years.

now if you were to take into account house demolitions, land confiscation and the laundry list of things you may start to understand why some "rejoice" at the thought of revenge.

[Terra Terra]

30. I did not say I was okay with it

I merely used the number to show intent. That is, the Israeli military does not intentionally target civilians (99.9% of the time), and I believe that fact is borne out by the number of Palestinian deaths over the past 6 years. If they did, the number of deaths would be much, much higher. I do not condone the killing of civilians on either side. Also, are you implying that the Israeli citizens do not also, under your logic, have reason to "rejoice" at the thought of revenge? How many thousands of Israeli citizens have been killed or maimed by suicide bombers? Yet we do not see them dancing in the streets following a military operation against the Palestinians.

[idontwantaname]

31. thats because they have the guns

time for a story.

i have an israeli born friend whose family lives in haifa. her nephew is currently serving as a sharpshooter in the IDF. he doesnt particularly care for the palestinians so what does he do? he(with some others stationed in the tulkarem region) drive their jeep through the refugee camp and throw rocks at kids. after an hour of this they shoot a kid, the boldest kid, and drive away.

if youre israeli and dont like palestinians theres no need to merely dance in the streets when something happens. you can actively occupy or harass them. please view this video---->

http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/files/CAPTIONED_dr_tayseer_for_web.wmv

and

http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/files/2005-10-12_Settlers_stone_Qurtaba_students.wmv

and

http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/files/women_in_green_at_qurtaba.wmv

[Terra Terra]

32. Both sides have guns

It is a known fact that weapons are regularly smuggled into Gaza and the West Bank, including guns and explosives. And many times, people described as kids in press reports are 16 and 17 years old. We've all seen what 16 and 17 year olds can do. Remember Columbine, or any number of other school shootings here in the states?

Still, it is very difficult for me to sympathize with those who rejoiced after the attacks of 9/11, and the Israelis were not the ones rejoicing.

[idontwantaname]

33. please view the 3 videos in my previous post.

i dont disagree with you re:guns on both sides.

[Terra Terra]

34. I'm at work right now

I will have to view them after hours

[Tom Joad]

35. They have, as a policy, targeted civilians.

Read Amnesty International reports. Read Human Rights Watch.

So has the United States. It is not unique to Israel to implement state terrorism.

And terra please, they is no plan to leave the West Bank, only parts of it.

Read Jimmy Carter's appraisal of Israel's "solution".
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/03/09/colonization_of_palestine_precludes_peace.php

Look at the map of their plan here:
http://www.strategicassessments.org/library/Disengagement/SAI%20ITAG%20DISENGAGEMENT%20MAP.pdf
Notice the pieces of the West Bank taken by Israel.
No doubt that Israel sincerely wants a piece.

I do believe that many Israelis want Peace with justice (the only kind of peace there is), but they will have to make their government work in line with international law and withdraw from occupied land.

Edited to add map link accidently left out at first

[cali]

26. That's undoubtedly true.

Israel should leave the West Bank, but in the meantime, Israel should stop firing rockets into civilian populations and Palestinians should crack down on groups that carry out suicide attacks and fire rockets into Israel. Hamas support for the suicide bombing that killed nine yesterday cannot be supported by anyone who truly wants peace in the region. Alas, I see too many here at DU who give lip service to how fair they are, but rarely condemn hold the Palestinians responsible for any of their actions, excusing any act of violence or flight of rhetoric as understandable because they live under occupation.

[cali]

20. God, that's breatakingly stupid

You're suggesting that killing more innocent Palestinians would "make those who would support suicide bombings against civilians understand the barbarity of the crime." Wow. Killing Palestinian civilans has worked so well in the past.

[Terra Terra]

23. And killing Israeli civilians has worked well in the past?

Also, I maintain that if you celebrate, and even encourage, the killing of civilians then you are not exactly "innocent". Then again, maybe you just have to support killing the "right" civilians for you to be considered innocent.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. Some information please

Branch of Service:
MOS:
Dates of Service:
Decorations:
Service Schools:

Thank you so very much.

PS - I had a cousin killed by "friendly fire," I live in the same town as Pat Tillman's family, and I was a casualty assistance officer for the family of a service member killed by "friendly fire" --

[idontwantaname]

16. the math

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/facts_sheets/martyrs.htm

view the table under Extrajudicial Assassinations

Combatant? Yes 944 25.7%
No 1,856 50.6%
Unknown 870 23.8

this is only those killed, and does not take into account those injured.

--------------------

additional info from http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp


Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces 3367

Palestinians who were the object of a targeted killing 227

[Coastie for Truth]

21. The numbers

My cousin Ruthie was killed by a terrorist bomb - coming out of a Bridal Shoppe carrying her wedding gown.

[RethugAssKicker]

8. I am an American.... I care about American issues....

I don't want to get involved in the Israel - Palenstinian issue...

Let them kill themselves... I hate my leaders for getting us involved in this
age old war, that can never be solved!

[idontwantaname]

11. global issues my friend...

3 billion US tax dollars going to israel... not to mention the oil scandals... wheres coastie?

[RethugAssKicker]

12. There's no answer to that struggle....

They are intent on Armageddon... AND I want no part of it.

Complete annhilation is the only place that struggle will lead the world to.

Western Religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) DICTATE IT!!!

They're all fucking INSANE!

[idontwantaname]

13. self delete n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

15. I'm here civilian.

And the oil scandals are not Israel's fault.

[cali]

5. Whoa

What a despicable sentiment. You're actually suggesting targeting people because they're celebrating the attack? Yes, it's jarring and yes it's ugly, but they certainly shouldn't be targeted because of it. I don't know if Israelis have ever celebrated over Palestinian deaths but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that had happened. I've read some pretty disturbing stories about some of the settlers and how they refer to and treat Palestinians.

I'm disgusted by your post.

[Terra Terra]

7. Who do you think supports the attacks?

Could it possibly be the people who are celebrating the deaths of people going bout their daily lives? Where, oh where, might future "martyrs" come from? Maybe from the same crowd of people that think the suicide bombings are a cause for celebration?

[cali]

9. So killing children

who are undoubtedly in the crowd and can't really grasp what they're celebrating, are there for the candy and the pastries- that's OK with you? Hell, why not just kill their first born sons because they might grow op to be terrorists.

[Terra Terra]

10. It would be no worse...

than the standard suicide bombing in Israel. Or are children not killed when suicide bombers detonate their bombs? At least the Palestinians would know how to protect their children...not allow them to celebrate suicide bombings. Certainly it would be tragic if children were killed, but no more tragic than those who are killed by suicide bombers for doing something as innocuous as riding a bus or eating pizza.

[Tom Joad]

36. Palestinian children are killed all the time. Remember these children

They are always vulnerable from the occupation army. Several have been killed in the last week. Before the attack on Israel.

How do you think sisters and brothers respond when they see their young siblings blown apart on the street? With love? Will they have hope for a good life. Or will revenge be the only thing that will make sense?

You are not only inviting more killing of Palestinian chidren, but also Israeli children.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/

[Lithos]

37. Locking

The idea of deliberately targeting violence against civilians is a crime against humanity. Doesn't matter if it is done via suicide bomber, bullet, mine, grenade, missile, rocket, artillery shell, bomb, or any other weapon system.

There is no justification for it in any progressive ideal even in retaliation as two wrongs do not make a right.

This article can be reposted if the debate does not repeat the above debate.

Lithos
DU Moderator