BREAKING : suicide bombing in Israel

[tocqueville]

4 dead, dozens of wounded.

Heard on Europe I radio, more to come...

[aquart]

1. And the purpose?

[Taxloss]

3. To kill people, I would imagine. n/t

[Bacchus39]

8. correct answer

n/t

[Selteri]

11. Disgraceful, sad and pitiful.

My thoughts go out to the victims and their families. Suicide Bombers don't really win any support from me, sometimes I have to wonder if they are all genuine though or not. I mean, it's hard to interview a corpse.

[ClintonTyree]

7. Could have something to do...

with Israel firing missiles into Palestinian territory last week. Just call it a hunch.

[tatertop]

10. Why it occurred is certainly no mystery:

The nightly shelling of the civilian population by tanks;
the bulldozer diplomacy; the random arrests and
detainment of children; the ever present
in-your-face aggression of the IOF; the
ongoing violence exacted by those land-grabbing
criminals euphemistically called settlers.
There is, of course, much much more.

That this bombing occurred is incredibly sad.
Why it occurred is certainly no mystery.

[Phx_Dem]

13. You have done a good job

listing the excuses used for terrorism.

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

14. Couldn't agree more.

Spot on.

[tatertop]

15. I made no excuses for the IDF, now did I?

Please do not put words in my mouth.

[Phx_Dem]

16. I did nothing of the sort

other than characterize your "reasons" for what they are, excuses.

[Scurrilous]

21. More cycle of violence.

IDF shell kills Palestinian teen

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3240904,00.html

Gaza: Two youngsters wounded in IDF shelling; army expresses regret, says terrorists responsible

<snip>

"A Palestinian teenager was killed and two of his friends were wounded Monday evening after an IDF shell hit a group of youngsters in the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Lahiya.

The teenager, Mamduh Ubaid, sustained critical wounds and died on the operating table in Gaza.

The latest incident marks the second week in a row where a Palestinian dies in Israeli shelling directed at the northern Gaza Strip. A nine-year-old girl died last week and 12 of her family members were hurt last week.

Palestinian officials said that the number of Palestinian casualties has increased after the IDF reduced its safety margins and began firing shells at sites in closer proximity to residential homes."

[question everything]

35. And the reason for the shelling?

So easy to jump on one action.

Israel agreed for a two-states partition. Is willing to negotiate with former enemies and terrorists - the PLO. But Hamas refuses and so it goes. Israel is not a Christian country, does not believe in turning the other cheek. Certainly is not going to play dead just so that some ignorant who are too lazy to learn the history of the region - from several sources - will have a reason to feel good about the Palestinians.

They may be underdogs, but murderous underdogs nonetheless.

[Scurrilous]

36. Question everything.

Including Israel. :thumbsup:

[Jim Sagle]

74. IDF don't need an excuse. They're hunting butchers.

[HuffleClaw]

17. funny how SOME killing is 'excused'

as a 'military action' and others are condemned as 'terrorism'

[Phx_Dem]

25. funny how the definition of terrorism escapes some people nt

[Tight_rope]

52. Yes...many sometimes jump over the fence for their team!

I believe in call a spade "A SPADE"!

[tatertop]

20. I support the right of Palestine to exist

And I do so without calling for the destruction
of Israel. I support Palestine AND I
support Israel. See?

[Phx_Dem]

22. great, so do I

I had no reason to think otherwise. However, I don't think terrorism is justified under any circumstances.

[phusion]

24. Neither is murderous military action against civilians n/t

[Zhade]

29. So tell that to the IDF. Hold the Israeli government accountable, too.

Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

[phusion]

23. Absolutely...Thank you for saying that. n/t

[Psephos]

26. Palestine's right to exist doesn't erase falafel eaters' right to exist

These Hatfield and McCoy arguments mean nothing except the perpetuation of violence. What human right is more fundamental than the right not to be ripped apart and left to die while chunks of your body lie around you on the sidewalk?

I am a strong proponent of Palestine's rights, and an equally strong proponent of Israel's. Neither of those positions is compatible with blowing up civilians. Did you see the picture of the kid who detonated the bomb? Turning your youth into exploding bags of meat and nails - after filling their heads with religious dogma and promises of glory in the next life - is the act of a depraved culture.

I remember when progressives didn't make excuses for people who kill civilians with shrapnel bombs. Such atrocities can be condemned unconditionally, without requiring one to abandon support for Palestinian issues.

Peace.

[Zhade]

30. So, when did progressives start turning a blind eye to the IDF?

THIS progressive refuses to excuse the Israeli government's terrorism against the Palestinians. I hope you do, as well.

[Pavulon]

44. Wrong

This asshole bomber could have picked up a rifle and shot IDF soldiers. It is not that hard to aim a rifle. He could have used explosives against some infrastructure or soldiers at a checkpoint. He chose to kill helpless people. That is palestinian POLICY.

That is their style and that is why I will never support them as a 'cause'.

The IDF has the capacity to kill thousands of palestinians by bombing funerals of "martyrs" attacking Hamas members with 2000 lb guided bombs instead of force designed to kill vehicle occupants.

Israel has practiced great restraint. However, Hamas is looking for a chance to put their charter into action and will end up with a war. They will lose and cause the death of many palestinians. But that is what the arab states use them for. They are pawns in a cold war and the Hamas structure in Syria will continue to use them as such.

[FiveGoodMen]

28. Reasons and excuses are not the same thing.

[Phx_Dem]

42. Yea, that's what I was pointing out

there is no reason for suicide bombing, ever.

[FiveGoodMen]

49. Opposite.

There may never be an excuse but there are definitely reasons.

[Phx_Dem]

50. we are getting into semantics

I guess it depends on what kind of reasons you are referring to.

If a kid 1 hits kid 2 and kid 2 hits kid 1 back, what was the reason for kid 2 hitting back? Was it because kid 1 hit him? If that's the "reason" then what control do you have over your own behavior? Do other people control you or do YOU control your behavior?

[FiveGoodMen]

51. Maybe it's semantics, but I think it's still important

Reason does not equal justification.

A justification would mean that the action was, well, justified.

A reason simply talks about cause and effect. If bombings don't happen for a reason, then they're just random events and you can't do anything about them. You can't gauge their likelihood, and you can't stop them. You can't stop them because they 'just happen' for 'no reason'. Therefore, you can't identify who will try to carry them out -- how could you ever guess when they happen for no reason?

It's a bad idea to shut down conversations about cause, effect, and prevention, just so you can better express outrage. Bombings may not be justified but they do happen for reasons and it makes sense to figure out what those reasons are.

[Phx_Dem]

53. It is important

"Reason does not equal justification.

A justification would mean that the action was, well, justified."

I'm with you on that.


"A reason simply talks about cause and effect."

"It's a bad idea to shut down conversations about cause, effect, and prevention, just so you can better express outrage. Bombings may not be justified but they do happen for reasons and it makes sense to figure out what those reasons are."

I was not trying to "shut down the conversation" but I was trying to point out that the reasons are psychological in nature. We are talking about human beings, not robots, so in actuality it's exceedingly difficult to know what a persons motivation is.

In other words, the real reason someone blows up a cafe for example is not because they felt harmed by something which happened prior, but because that bomber is "externalizing" their "locus of control". Juvenile delinquents do this a lot, so do terrorists.

[Andromeda]

71. You sound like you've just completed

a course in Islamic Jihad 101. Maybe you'll get a chance to go to the Middle East so you can join up with the people you admire so much.

[Selteri]

12. Yeah, the why is hardly a difficult to deduce.

I just feel it is pitious and sad that they have to fight over what is really little more than a piece of overfarmed country which needs a lot fo help in developing, but that can't happen until they stop trying to kill each other like they are.

[tatertop]

19. Palestinians have requested UN oversight, Israel says no

When will Israel proffer an honest overture
of peace (no, I don't mean giving back 5 acres of stolen
Palestine they have used up while grabbing 100 acres that separate Palestinian farms from water)?

[Psephos]

27. "When will Israel proffer an honest overture..."

Perhaps like the one Barak offered in July 2000 at Camp David? He put out the entire Gaza Strip, a Palestinian capitol in East Jerusalem, over 95% of the West Bank, and financial reparations for Palestinian refugees. He risked his political life on this, and stared down the hard-liners in Israel to do it. Arafat didn't even counter-offer. Instead we got the Intifada. Do you understand why? Because Arafat realized to take the offer would have meant the end of Arafat's rule.

Hey Tatertop, what exactly do you think was missing from Barak's offer? Does it seem a little weird to you that Barak put all that on the table, and Arafat put up...exactly...nothing?

For the continuation of a regime corrupt even by Middle Eastern standards, the long-suffering Palestinians lost their best chance ever for a real solution. God help them now.

Peace.

[Zhade]

32. Arafat's dead now. Move on to the next offer.

Regardless of your interpretation of the "wonderful offer" (I disagree that it can be characterized as such), even if all the killing were somehow Arafat's fault for not accepting the offer, HE'S DEAD NOW.

It's time for the Israeli government to think about trying again, and this time not allowing illegal settlements to remain on Palestinian land, period.

Surely, if it is to be believed from your argument that Arafat was the reason they don't yet have peace, neither side should continue to suffer because of the past failures to secure peace.

[Psephos]

39. LOL

I know, sometimes it's tough to stay focused when you're bristling with righteous indignation. Still, did it cross your mind that Arafat's current state has nothing to do with the historical answer to the question asked by the previous poster?

(Besides, what makes you think Arafat is dead? I hear he's still being kept breathing on that machine by his wife and those crafty Parisian doctors. Heh heh.)

Also, Zhade, when you quote me, and use quotation marks to do it, you might want to double check if I actually said what you attributed to me. Cuz I didn't.

I can, however, agree with you that neither side should continue to suffer because of past failures. However, the Legions of Exploding Martyr Kids since then may have something to do with Israeli reluctance to stick the same offer out there. Just imagine, Zhade, that you're walking along the Third Street Promenade with your mom, wearing your Che t-shirt, watching a street musician, eating some ice cream, and then there's a blinding flash, you can't hear anything, blood is spraying out of your kneecap, and you're still holding your mom's hand, but her hand is no longer attached to her body, which has kinda turned into a pink mist. Moments later, the head of the 19-year-old whose jacket bomb decapitated him comes back down to the concrete with a thud. Yep, that's how it works.

I know it's hard to believe, but I actually consider the shredding of grandpas and the evisceration and decapitation of children to be the central evil here. Innocent people are dying horrible, writhing deaths for stupid, motherfucking ideologies. Please, by all means, shower invective and withering insults on whoever has different political views from yours - but don't pretend that politics makes human hamburger somehow acceptable. I can think of *no* example more opposite of what progressive means.

As long as there are partisans on each side who see the other side's every move as a new call to more violence, then peace will indeed remain elusive.

Now I forgot, which side are you on? The Hatfields, or the McCoys?

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. Actually, That Was Clinton's Compromise

Which was continued in the Taba talks. Barak never offered anything close to that prior to the compromise, and Arafat never rejected that compromise. They were in the process of finalizing the deal when Barak ended the process to concentrate on his political campaign (read Charles Enderlin's "Shattered Dreams" since he was the only reporter at the peace process). But kudos to you in falling for the Israeli propoganda that it was all Arafat's fault.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. That's not what happened at Camp David...

There was never any offer put in writing, nor maps. The supposed capital in East Jerusalem was in reality a small village near Jerusalem, while it was intended that Israel keep East Jerusalem itself. Also over 95% of the West Bank was never on the cards, not even verbally, and Israel refused to even discuss the refugee issue...

If that was the best chance for a real solution, Dog help the folk who think that was in any way fair...

Violet...

[Terran1212]

31. And starving and sieging them the past few months; killing dozens

[flashdebadge]

46. I used to keep records on the attacks. In all but a few Israel acted in

self defense. In the cases where they didn't, they had intercepted plans of an immanent attack and took out the individuals who were planning the attacks. Go back about 12 years and start looking at the peace talks. Every time the peace talks would start, both sides would agree to a cease fire. The first side to restart the attacks was always the Palestinian side. They cannot accept a middle east with Israel being part of it. Ehud Barak demonstrated this to President Clinton at the Camp David talks with Yassar Arafat. Barak offered everything Arafat wanted in the negotiations. Arafat refused to accept it. President Clinton was distraught over the whole thing when he knew that peace was right there but Arafat wouldn't accept his own requirements. Ehud said I told you they would not accept the deal even when you give them everything because for them victory only comes when Israel is no more!

[rfkrfk]

40. somebody benefits, but you don't know who ...n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

48. Why, killing Jews

That's always the purpose.

[cal04]

2. Tel Aviv explosion (link)

A suspected Palestinian suicide bomber killed at least five people at a sandwich stand in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv on Monday and wounded dozens more, medics said.

The bombing occurred near Tel Aviv's old central bus station. The ZAKA emergency service put the number of dead at six, including the bomber. The Magen David Adom ambulance service initially estimated the number of wounded at 30.
"It was a huge explosion. It was an unbelievable sight," Yossi Bar, a taxi driver, told Israel Radio.

The attack occurred as acting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was in the middle of forming a coalition government and three weeks after the Islamic militant group Hamas took control of the Palestinian government.


http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyid=2006-04-17T111351Z_01_L17734445_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-EXPLOSION.xml

[paul_fromatlanta]

4. Islamic Jihad claiming responsibility

[KoKo]

5. Is this the "Iranian Connection?"

straight from BeBe's lips.

[HuffleClaw]

18. ahhahahahahaaa

oh, they'd LOVE that wouldn't they. wanna bet bush rants about this and the 'need' to 'defend our ally'

[cantstandbush]

6. For the supposedly "best security" in the world, how could this happen

at the same restaurant where there was another bombing in January?

[Bacchus39]

9. it happens all the time

and if they had lousy security it would happen more.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. Wow. Fast mods! Bravo. -nt

[Danmel]

33. My 15 year old daughter is going to Israel this summer

Maybe someone will blow her to bits while she gets a burger with her friends and you can all cheer. Amazing, it really really is.

[Charlie Brown]

34. Amazing and disturbing

It always disturbs me how anyone claiming to be a progressive can find excuses for cold-blooded murder, especially under the guise of religious fanaticism. The idiots who do this (suicide bombings) are only widening the web of violence and providing fodder for people in the US who want a war with Iran.

The "Israel does it, too" line some posters are dropping here is neither an excuse nor a justfification for this heinous act.

I hope your daughter is safe during her time in Israel.

[Radioactive]

37. Talk her out of it

Surely there are safer places for her to go at the moment? until there is a legitimate effort to maintain peace in the area I would stay clear of it.

[MelliMel]

38. We go every year from just before Rosh Hashanah until Yom Kippur.

We have family in Ashkelon and Jerusalem.

I hope she has as wonderful a time as we do every year!

[Danmel]

41. My daughter is Melanie too

We call her MelliMel!

Thanks for the encouragement- I don't like to live in fear.

Welcome to DU!

[MelliMel]

57. Thank you!

Have you been to Israel? If not, I highly recommend it. Your daughter is in for a wonderful experience. :-)

And I laughed when I saw that your daughter is a MelliMel too. :-)

[idontwantaname]

58. welcome to the board

i saw your profile and am wondering if you or any family members are interested in traveling into the west bank? if so please repost here (cant send you PMs yet). i live in the los angeles are and work with folks who are interested in visitng the west bank.

[imperialismispasse]

43. Why in god's name would you let your kid go there?

It's like saying it's okay for your kid to vacation in Beirut. You must be crazy.

[GeorgiaDem69]

47. Regardless of what Israel has or has not done

nothing justifies these suicide attacks. Also, as far as I know, Israel hasn't called for wiping Paelstinians off the face of the earth.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. Please tell me what post # in this thread is "cheering"

I can't find any of that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

72. Crickets. Tumbleweeds roll by. Why am I not surprised? -nt

[occuserpens]

59. Lenta on Hamas and Kadima

2006-04-18 Lenta on Hamas and Kadima

[cali]

60. Suicide bomber kills 5 in Tel Aviv

Associated Press

TEL AVIV, Israel - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up near a fast-food restaurant in a bustling commercial area of Tel Aviv during the Jewish holiday of Passover on Monday, killing five people and wounding at least 35 others, police and medics said.

Israel's Army Radio, citing police, said six people including the suicide bomber were killed. Israel TV's Channel 2 said at least 15 of the wounded were in serious condition.

The bomber struck the same falafel restaurant that was hit by an attacker on Jan. 19, medics said. In that attack, 20 people were wounded. The restaurant is in the bustling Neve Shaanan neighborhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station, which was crowded with holiday travelers.

The wounded were treated on sidewalks. One man was lying on his side, his back covered by bandages. A bleeding woman was wheeled away on a stretcher. A dazed-looking man walked near the site, his white T-shirt splattered with blood.

<snip>

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/world/14361041.htm

[cali]

61. What does this

portend? Am I wrong in thinking that this could be a dangerous developement? Isn't it the first suicide attack since Hamas assumed power? Will there be retaliation? What form will it take?

[Scurrilous]

62. "Will there be retaliation? What form will it take?"

I think we might see the IDF reenter Gaza. There have been rumblings about this in the Israeli press.

[King Mongo]

63. Will that prevent future violence?

... or only help to encourage more of such in the near or distant future?

In my opinion, the focus should be on preventing and solving crime by providing justice, not practicing revenge.

[cali]

64. That sounds good, but

sweeping generalities don't solve concrete problems.

[King Mongo]

65. I don't quite follow...

Does retaliation, if practiced, reduce or discourage crime or does it help and encourage it?

I think that it is fair to guess that law enforcement may be ineffective when practiced by an occupied power upon the disatisfied occupied. Yet, retaliation pretty much achieves underground resistance and thus does nothing to reduce long-term violence.

[Igel]

68. I think in this particular instance retaliation

is certainly going to increase the violence.

It'll prompt Israel to do something that will lead to Palestinian deaths.

[King Mongo]

70. Agreed, and this will prompt some Palestinians...

to do something that will lead to Israeli deaths. The violence continues with both sides blaming the other for their own problems, while Israel refuses to recognize that Palestine exists as an unoccupied nation.

[Coastie for Truth]

66. A hollow threat? Braggadocio? Or for real?

Palestinian militants linked to President Mahmoud Abbas's increasingly fractured Fatah movement threatened on Monday to attack Jews overseas to force Israel to release Palestinian prisoners from its jails.

Two other main Palestinian militant groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, also said they supported violence to free more than 8,000 prisoners held by the Jewish state, but neither explicitly backed attacks on Jews outside Israel.

The call by militants of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades could heighten tension between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, which has been crippled financially by the loss of Western aid, and of tax and customs revenues frozen by Israel, after Hamas's crushing electoral win over Fatah in January. "This is an open call to all our fighters in the homeland to focus on kidnapping Israeli soldiers and civilians inside our occupied land. And if the enemy does not release our prisoners, then Zionists outside Palestine will be an easy target for our fighters," the group said in a statement.

(emphasis added)

<<<snip>>>

[idontwantaname]

67. i condemn this. its not good for anyone...

and if israelis want peace things need to change for the better. they need to reopen the lines of communication and take a critical eye to the current occupation and achieve resolve which works for both sides.

[Scurrilous]

69. Israel Fires Missiles Into Gaza Strip Hours After Palestinian Attack

Full title: Israel Fires Missiles Into Gaza Strip Hours After Palestinian Suicide Attack

<snip>

"Palestinian witnesses say the Israeli military has fired missiles at a metal factory in the Gaza Strip, hours after a Palestinian suicide attack that killed nine people.

They say the missiles damaged the factory but caused no casualties.

Palestinian sources have also reported Israeli military activity in the West Bank cities of Nablus and Jenin."

<snip>

"Following the bombing, Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz met with top security officials and decided against a large-scale military operation at this time. But Israeli media say a recommendation emerged from the meeting for Israel to increase its policy of separation between West Bank cities in hopes of restricting travel."

http://voanews.com/english/2006-04-18-voa2.cfm