Palestinian Child Killed and Two Others Wounded by IDF Artillery Shelling

[Tom Joad]

http://pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2006/41-2006.htm

PCHR is gravely concerned over continued military operations conducted by Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) in the northern Gaza Strip, which have caused many casualties among Palestinian civilians. On Monday evening, 17 April 2006, a Palestinian child was killed and two were injured, when an artillery shell fired by IOF fell near a playground in Beit Lahia.

According to investigations conducted by PCHR, at approximately 18:30 on Monday, 17 April 2006, IOF fired a number of artillery shells at Sheikh Zayed town to the east of Beit Lahia. One of the shells fell near a playground located approximately 300 meters away from a residential area, where at least 20 Palestinian children were playing football. Soon afterwards, another shell was fired at the children before they had managed to leave the area, leaving 3 children wounded. They were evacuated to al-‘Awda Hospital in Jabalya. One of the children, 17-year-old Mamdouh Mohammed ‘Obaid, died on the way to the hospital. The other two children who were wounded are:Mohammed Hamdi Abu Tabaq, 14, and ‘Ammar Abu al-Kas, 15.
_____________________________________________________________________

Just another day. No headlines in US newspapers for these children. When will we remember all the children of the Middle East?
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/

[Warren Stupidity]

1. When the state does it, it is collateral damage. nt.

[bemildred]

2. So much for the moral high ground. nt

[tatertop]

3. Howdy Tom, how you been?

Seems the Israeli Occupation Forces are stepping up the
daily program of unabated violence.

[bemildred]

4. Can't negotiate with terrists.

Must not be forced to negotiate with terrists.
Must justify "unilateral settlement", even though that is an oxymoron.

[tatertop]

6. I am still learning to love Big Brother

Not there yet.
Still waiting on the latest edition of
the Newspeak Dictionary.

[Poll_Blind]

5. This too is terrorism. And we give these folks billions. n/t

PB

[tatertop]

7. I think it is more than terrorism... way beyond, in fact

It is organized, and scheduled,
and far planned, and all-encompassing... mmm... can't quite think
of the word...

[halla]

11. human camouflage

article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

the palestinians are notorious for using their own citizens as sandbags to protect them while they either engage in terror acts or as protection against retaliation.

the idf warned the palestinians in the area that because of the rocket attacks, the idf would be conducting operations in the area and that they should avoid the area.

if the presents of civilians thwarted idf operations then the palestinian terrorist would be immune from any danger.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. So you believe the Palestinians are protected persons?

And that the Geneva Conventions apply to the Occupied Territories?

Violet...

[halla]

15. application of article 28 of geneva convention

there is an argument for the implementation of article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. Israel is in effect the occupier of what are really disputed areas and subject to operations from organized groups dedicated to Israel's destruction with the active help from groups such as hizbollah, an Iranian terror group located on Israel's northern border.

the concept of 'protected persons' is a pseudonym for innocent civilians. what makes this interesting is the participation and perhaps collusion with the terrorists by the 'protected persons'

my question would be: if indeed Israel was to not engage the terrorists (defined by their deliberate targeting civilians)because of a civilian presence then Israel would be impotent. therefore affording the terrorists sanctuary with in a civilian population while actively targeting a another civilian population. a charming conundrum indeed!

[Violet_Crumble]

16. There's a solid argument for the application of the entire convention...

Or do you only argue that particular bits and pieces that you agree with should apply to the Occupied Territories?

Violet...

[halla]

17. not kibbles and bits but context, context, context.

the use of the convention requires particulars. remember the devil is in the details. in the case of organized violence against Israel the argument is clear. even without the convention Israel has the natural right to protect itself. once again, can it be argued that Israeli civilians can be targeted by terrorists but the terrorists then find sanctuary within a sympathetic civilian population?

but if one were to apply the language of the geneva convention as a whole then one must respect the justification for its invocation. that is another universe of argument. after the six day war jordan and egypt abandoned their illegal occupation of the territories. there was no governing body when israel took control. in fact the area was integral to the whole of the area that was to be parsed out between israel and the palestinians. no boundaries were formed because of the arab rejection of israel's existence. all complicated by arab hostilities and all further complicated by the ambiguity of what was/wasn't palestine. jordan is said to have a claim, the plo talked of palestine as a tactic and not a national aspiration:

Statement by Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO:
"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity

Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977

*******************

Abdul Malik Dahamshe, an Israeli Arab Knesset member, said
at a solidarity visit in Damascus, Syria January 24, 1995]:

Palestine and Syria are one homeland. The Arab people will win by the
sword; the victory will be won by the Jihad of the Arab world.

from i can understand, the area is the detritus of ottoman rubble, not a people, not a government and even today seen as integral of the arablands.

i use the term occupied/disputed and find the following relevant:

"Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention "is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign." In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states."

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp470.htm

now that quote by itself might have the stability of a one legged stool, that is why a added the additional legs source from palestinian/arab sources.

today the world is a work at defining the territories as occupied. i believe jimmy carter first introduced the term. since occupation presumes the displacement of a sovereign to be occupied one needs to act who/what was that sovereign??

[halla]

18. a Gordian Knot with Middle East complexity

given that under oslo the palestinians became sovereign over areas agreed to by the parties should the geneva convention apply to the palestinians authorities.

After Oslo, Can the Territories be Classified as "Occupied"?
In the 1980s, President Carter's State Department legal advisor, Herbert Hansell, sought to shift the argument over occupation from the land to the Palestinians who live there. He determined that the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention governing military occupation applied to the West Bank and Gaza Strip since its paramount purpose was "protecting the civilian population of an occupied territory."12 Hansell's legal analysis was dropped by the Reagan and Bush administrations; nonetheless, he had somewhat shifted the focus from the territory to its populace. Yet here, too, the standard definitions of what constitutes an occupied population do not easily fit, especially since the implementation of the 1993 Oslo Agreements.

Under Oslo, Israel transferred specific powers from its military government in the West Bank and Gaza to the newly created Palestinian Authority. Already in 1994, the legal advisor to the International Red Cross, Dr. Hans-Peter Gasser, concluded that his organization had no reason to monitor Israeli compliance with the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Gaza Strip and Jericho area, since the Convention no longer applied with the advent of Palestinian administration in those areas.13

Upon concluding the Oslo II Interim Agreement in September 1995, which extended Palestinian administration to the rest of the West Bank cities, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres declared: "once the agreement will be implemented, no longer will the Palestinians reside under our domination. They will gain self-rule and we shall return to our heritage."14

Since that time, 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip has come under Palestinian jurisdiction.15 Israel transferred 40 spheres of civilian authority, as well as responsibility for security and public order, to the Palestinian Authority, while retaining powers for Israel's external security and the security of Israeli citizens.

The 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 6) states that the Occupying Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory." Under the earlier 1907 Hague Regulations, as well, a territory can only be considered occupied when it is under the effective and actual control of the occupier. Thus, according to the main international agreements dealing with military occupation, Israel's transfer of powers to the Palestinian Authority under the Oslo Agreements has made it difficult to continue to characterize the West Bank and Gaza as occupied territories.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp470.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

20. According to you the Geneva Convention doesn't apply...

So you can't go and cherrypick bits and pieces of it and claim that they do apply as you have earlier in this thread...

btw, Dore Gold is a right-wing idiot. Why would you be quoting anything he said as supposed proof of anything?

Violet....

[halla]

26. dore gold an idiot??

dore gold is a spokesperson for israel. your claiming he is a right wing idiot demonstrates extreme prejudice. especially when it is done in lieu of contesting his argument.

i do not cherry pick the geneva convention. i demonstrate the difficulty of application from the israel position. i used the part on 'protected persons' to demonstrate that the palestinian terrorist's use of 'human camouflage'/'human sandbags' while simultaneously engaged in deliberately killing israeli civilians. the geneva conventions says that the presences of civilian does not render the terrorist immune. is it fair to argue that israel doesn't have the right to pursue civilian killers just because they hide amongst a civilian population?

once again, damning someone because of your opinion and not the content of their argument is a very poor show.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error."
john stuart mills

[halla]

12. billions

we also have given billions to egypt. what did we get the moslem brotherhood and its progeny al qaeda

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Uh, the Muslim Brotherhood existed prior to any US funding to Egypt...

The Muslim Brotherhood was created around 1928. US aid to Egypt really commenced in 1979...

Violet...

[halla]

27. uh, you forgot the context!

you forgot its progeny al qaeda, the evolving evil of the day.

Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAl-Qaeda's philosophical inspiration comes from the writings of Sayyid Qutb, a prominent thinker from the Muslim Brotherhood, whose essays inspired most of ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda - 100k - Cached - Similar pages


deliberately truncating a quote can be tantamount to lying!

let me relieve you of your blind spot on butchered quotes:

this hypothetical quote:
"he came at me with a gun and i killed him"
doesn't find its equivalency in this truncated quote:
"i killed him"

[cali]

8. a tragic loss of life

The Israelis must stop shelling Gaza.

[newyorican]

9. "The Israelis must stop shelling Gaza."

As the Palestinians must stop going after Israeli civilians.

But neither side has stopped and it appears there is no adult supervision on the horizon.

The question, as always, is "What's next?".

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[halla]

13. Israel must stop shelling Gaza when Palestinians stop rockets

without a response to the rocket attacks into Israel, the terror attacks will continue. what is the answer to the rocket attacks if the military response is negated? remember the shelling was in response to the rocket attacks and not the rocket attacks to the shelling. would you have the Palestinians send rockets into Israel with impunity??

[pelsar]

19. an update....

let me update you as i've asked that question in multiple forms on multiple threads:

few will answer your question directly. For those that have I will summerize:

"I dont know"

israel is the stronger power and as such must find a solution

Send in the UN

Evacuate israelis within the radius of the kassams (and now the katushas)
____________________

there are those who do believe that israel can and should respond. On that light according to Israeli TV the kassam shooting has been lessened as well as less accuarate this last week. The difference being that israeli shelling is not just hitting empty fields but the actual launch sites, whether or not they are using their own as human shields or not

[halla]

28. Send in the UN

given israel's experience in lebanon and the acquiescence of UNIFIL in the abduction of israelis soldiers, i would understand israel's reluctance to use the great UN

[Violet_Crumble]

21. No, they must both stop...

Stuff the 'they can only stop when the other lot stop'. Israel's changing of their rules so that missiles can now be aimed up to 100 metres away from Palestinian homes is a violation of international law. There are no excuses or justifications for it to continue, just the same way as there's no justifications or excuses for the militants to continue firing rockets into Israel...

From B'Tselem"

The order given to Israeli forces to aim shells only 100 meters from houses of residents injures civilians and subjects Israeli army officers and soldiers to war crimes charges

Three Israeli human rights organizations and two Palestinian organizations jointly wrote to the Israeli Minister of Defense and Chief of Staff demanding the cancellation of the decision to reduce the 'safety zone' for artillery fire on the Gaza Strip, due to the danger it poses to the civilian population and its cost in human lives. The organizations, Physicians for Human Rights, B'Tselem, The Association for Civil Rights in Israel , the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights and The Gaza Community Mental Health Program , stated in their letter that the massive artillery fire causes disproportionate harm to the civilian population.

The organizations further stated that such attacks constitute a blatant violation of the Basic Rule of the laws of armed conflict whereby civilians and civilian objects must be distinguished from military objectives. The fact that Israel is confronting illegal firing of Qassam missiles at its own civilian population does not legitimize disproportionate responsive measures, which will knowingly lead to civilian casualties.

The organizations demanded that the Israeli forces conduct their activities with the strictest adherence to the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality mandated by international humanitarian law, so as to avoid, and in any event minimize, civilian casualties.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20060416.asp

Violet...

[pelsar]

23. since the palestenains are not stopping....

nor it appears do they intend to, since they've been launching since the very day israel left.

of the various options, only one has reduced the missles: israeli shelling, nothing else had any effect.



cause and effect: no israeli shellng lots of kassams, israeli shelling..less kassams....no magic, no hocus pocus, no wishful thinking

there is another option: ISM can go an patrol the launch areas and physically attempt to stop the launching......

[Violet_Crumble]

24. And Israel appears to have no wish to stop...

After all, Israel has in the past shelled Palestinian territory with impunity, but no-one seems to care when it comes to the Palestinians...

It's blatantly obvious the shelling isn't working, so why continue to support something that's resulting in the deaths of civilians?

Violet...

[pelsar]

25. it is working...

thats the problem when one claims that "both must stop"....last count, for the past week is 11 kassams fired, 4 hit israeli territory. Previous to the israeli shelling (when the actual sites are aimed at) we were experiencing 2-3 a day...agvg >21 for the week with a higher percentage of them hitting within the 67 borders.

your claim "no one seems to care when it comes to the Palestinians" is easily reveresed to be the israelis who are at the receiveing end of the kassams. The Israel govt cares for the israelis..and the Hamas obviously doesnt care enough for the palestenains...or prefers to terrorize the israelis..i wouldnt know what they're internal discussions are...but its obvious that stopping the kassams is not on their list of things to do...hence it is they who dont care...

[halla]

29. who is to decide??

"The organizations further stated that such attacks constitute a blatant violation of the Basic Rule of the laws of armed conflict whereby civilians and civilian objects must be distinguished from military objectives. The fact that Israel is confronting illegal firing of Qassam missiles at its own civilian population does not legitimize disproportionate responsive measures, which will knowingly lead to civilian casualties."

what happens when the terrorists hide amongst the civilian population?? are the terrorist immune? must israel wait until the terrorist are not surrounded by civilians. what if the civilians are active in their protection of the terrorists? shall the presence of 'protected persons' preclude israel's right to self defense?

who is to judge what constitutes 'disproportionate'

also i am looking for a link by b'tselem condemning the use of rat poison in the suicide bomb packet. can anyone help me there??

[ShalachEtAmi]

32. Its not possible for Israel to sit tight and `hope` Hamas stops their ...

Buddies from attempting to kill Jews. Israel has a responsibility to protect its citizens.If Hamas will not stop the terrorists then Israel must..

If Jordan were shelling Israel it would behoove Israel to flatten Amman..this Syria knows only too well and thats why they are not shelling Israel.

If Gaza were still occupied , the solution from the `other side ` would be..`end the occupation``...


Now the solution is `absorb the hits` `take it like a man` `turn the other cheek` ` lay down and play dead ,or be dead`..


Well the Warsaw Ghetto uprising inspired us to believe that not fighting back ,or not defending ourselves is never an option....


Hamas has not learned that lesson and obviously feels their people are expendable in this struggle against the Zionists...they have it within their power to stop Israel from shelling and to defend their own people by stopping the Quassams...thats why they are the government..its time they protected their people against the Zionist`s shelling...and theres only one way of doing it...Stop the Quassams..


Its not possible for Israel to stop defending itself,it is possible for Hamas to stop Israel from retaliating ie: stop the terrorists within their jurisdiction.

[halla]

38. matter + antimatter: annihilation

it is possible for Hamas to stop Israel from retaliating ie: stop the terrorists within their jurisdiction.

reality check:hamas covenant. hamas is terror.

Seattle Post Intelligencer The Region: Hamas can't even fake moderation
Jerusalem Post, Israel - 8 hours ago
... Finally, after an April 18 terrorist attack in Tel Aviv, in which nine people were ... In the Post's words, "Hamas chose to side with the suicide bombers" and ...
Hamas rule stirs chaos and uncertainty Buffalo News
all 93 related »

[Recursion]

30. Just a second...

without a response to the rocket attacks into Israel, the terror attacks will continue.

Really? They terror attacks seem to continue with responses too. Ah, game theory... how do people react in lose/lose situations?

[pelsar]

31. gaza is easy....

whats "nice" about gaza is that for those who are interested in the real motiviations of both israel and the palestenains.....is that is easy:

heres a short chronology of the "action"

israel pulls out: ------ palestenains shoot 30 missles into israel, and continues daily (there is no attempts by the PA to stop them)

israel uses sonic booms to warn and bother the palestenains in gaza (relatively non violent) --------palestenain response: more missles

--------- attempts to blow up karmi


israeli continues helicopter assassinations--------palestenain response: more missles

israel shells open areas of n gaza where kassams are sometimes being fired, warnings --------palestenain response: more missles and a katusha and inflitration attempts

israel shells actual launch sites (causing civilian as well as killing the shooters) --------palestenain response: less missles
____________________

doesnt seem to complicated

[halla]

36. read about the 'phased plan' for clarification

the palestinians say what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. now let negotiate!

THE PLO'S PHASED PLAN
Political Programme
Adopted at the 12th Session of the Palestinian National Council
Cairo, June 9, 1974
Text of the Phased Plan resolution:
The Palestinian National Council:

On the basis of the Palestinian National Charter and the Political Programme drawn up at the eleventh session, held from January 6-12, 1973; and from its belief that it is impossible for a permanent and just peace to be established in the area unless our Palestinian people recover all their national rights and, first and foremost, their rights to return and to self-determination on the whole of the soil of their homeland; and in the light of a study of the new political circumstances that have come into existence in the period between the Council's last and present sessions, resolves the following:

.....

phase

[dajudem]

33. it is hardly game 'theory'

when people are dying. Just what would you do if your home and community was being rocketed? Would you run away? Where would you go? When you finished running away, would the Palestinians move into your home and send rockets into the next (Jewish) community? Perhaps the Jews should all put up their hands and agree to be taken prisoner by the Palestinians, or perhaps they could just line up so the Palestinians can shoot them and get it over with. Then there would be no more Palestinian 'martyrs', no more collaterol damage, no more killing of Palestinians. Of course there would be no Jews in the area either, but hey! there will be PEACE, and the Jews can be happy because they 'took the high ground', lol!

[ShalachEtAmi]

34. That lesson was learnt by the Jews in the Holocaust...

`or perhaps they could just line up so the Palestinians can shoot them and get it over with.`

Jews do not do that anymore....

[halla]

35. game theory meets stimulus response

but the rocketeers started before the 'response'. now to this: how do people react in lose/lose situation. answer: in the great I/Thou existential debate, the last man standing will right the history. The Existential Experience is not about P.C. it is about surviving. Being There for your moment between oblivion. The fantasy of the now and the pretense of meaning.

from the hamas covenant:"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

allahluya!

Robert Aumann, partner in the nobel, for game theory:
Referring to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, Aumann said he was pessimistic.
"This is not a dispute which alternately heightens and calms down, but a dispute which has continued for 80 years. I can't see how it will come to an end in the near future," he said.
"Unfortunately I must say that I do not see and end to this dispute, and we must be prepared that it will last for another 80 years," Aumann stated.

such an optimist! just look at how long the irish/english imbroglio has been going on!

[halla]

37. do the palestinians give warnings too??

IDF distributes warning flyers over n. Gaza Strip


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yaakov Katz, THE JERUSALEM POST May. 1, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The IDF distributed flyers over the northern Gaza Strip Monday morning, warning residents of continued artillery fire and other repercussions if the Kassam rocket fire continued from the area.

The notices also warned that residents should stay away from Kassam launch sites following launches.