Am I crazy to want Israel Palestine to be one country, one people?

[Taverner]

Not a Jewish state, not a Muslim state, neither Arab nor Semetic - but a secular state of peoples, Israeli, Palestinian - Jewish, Christian, Secular and Muslim - to share one government, one constitution, one border?

[aquart]

1. Yes.

[Terran1212]

2. That's called the "One State Solution"

Most don't endorse this policy anymore. A moderator will likely move this topic to Israel/Palestine board, but it's good to mention that board is sharply polarized unlike this one.

[mike_c]

5. where it will be summarily locked....

This policy is really unfortunate, because it effectively prevents discussion of ideas unrelated to specific news events.

[mike_c]

3. that would be the reasonable thing to do....

Unfortunately, reason is unlikely to influence the outcome of this one.

[Selatius]

4. That's the ideal solution, but we are far from that because...

there is too much built up mistrust and hatred on both sides.

If there comes a time when people are judged not by their religious affiliation or their nationality but by the content of their character, such a goal can be realized, but as long as hatred and bigotry are allowed to endure, such a goal cannot be realized until such evil is finally defeated.

[Taverner]

7. Well if South Africa can do it

Surely Israel/Palestine can...

ON EDIT: and not just South Africa, but Northern Ireland as well...

[Selatius]

11. But we won't isolate the Israeli government like we did South Africa's

As long as US taxpayer dollars keep flowing to the state of Israel, Israel will not feel a terrible pressure to change its ways.

[Taverner]

13. I'd like to think that the ANC's peaceful resistance did more

Than the isolation did. I don't have much faith in isolation - it doesn't work in Cuba and it wouldn't work in Israel.

[Selatius]

23. I don't think peaceful resistance will work because Hamas won't let it.

If a Gandhi-like figure emerged to try and liberate the West Bank from occupation, I fear he would be assassinated by somebody in Hamas as much as somebody in Likud or Mossad.

[Taverner]

26. The real sad thing is there WAS a Gandhi like figure

I forget the name but he was really involved in the Clinton peace talks, until Arafat had him whacked...

But just because it failed the first time doesn't mean it won't be sucessful a second...

[newyorican]

55. ANC used every form of resistance...

including violence, and lots of it.

[cali]

12. Different people

different countries, different histories.

[Taverner]

15. True - but South Africa gives hope to the peaceful resistance community

[The Stranger]

34. YES, I BELIEVE YOU HAVE IT.

IF SOUTH AFRICA CAN DO IT, SO CAN ISRAEL.

One person, one vote.

All citizens, one nation.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

[Coastie for Truth]

56. Think

Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia. Lithuania-Belarus, Lithuania-Poland, the Trans-Caucus Republics of the former USSR, India-Pakistan.

[0007]

6. This is what the goal should be. Get 'em talking and talking

and talking like Clinton did. At least no one was being killed.

[Taverner]

9. Clinton really was a diplomatic genius

Belfast Peace Accords..who knows what would have happened if he had 4 more years?

[cali]

8. That's terribly Panglossian of you. n/t

[Taverner]

10. Dude you made me go to the dictionary

NO ONE makes me go to the dictionary ;)

Anyway, it is a pipe dream, but one can still dream can't they?

[cali]

16. Sorry, I almost explained

it, but I didn't want to seem condescending. Yes, it's a great pipe dream.

[Taverner]

20. Keep in mind Democracy was a pipe dream at one time

The ending of slavery was a pipe dream.

Civil Rights was a pipe dream.

[Poll_Blind]

14. No. I think it's a fine idea. To those who think it IS crazy, why?

I'm a liberal. I buy into that "we're all brothers under the skin" thing, truly.

Check out Ingathering by Ilan Pappe for a better understanding of some of the attitudes in Israel. It's a real eye-opener. I warn you, they will likely fill with tears after reading it.

Things like universal equality are just out of the spiritual grasp of some of the posters here.

PB

[cali]

21. I think the answer to that is simple

Based on their respective histories, both sides fear the other would wipe them out. You're talking deeply rooted psychic burdens that only deepen with each shell, each suicide bombing and each bit of hardened rhetoric.

[Poll_Blind]

30. But don't the violent elements exist as minorities on both sides?

Working together to eliminate these inhuman elements in each would be the greatest and most poignant human story ever told.

And you know what? I believe the Israelis and the Palestinians are capable of it. In the hearts of all men exists Love but not necessarily the strength to dig it out and polish it off.

PB

[Taverner]

31. Very true

Your average Palestinian doesn't want war anymore than your average Israeli. They're sick of war and bombings.

It's only the psychotic minorities on both ends that want bloodshed.

[rockymountaindem]

17. Yes

That a) would not work and b) isn't the point.

[Taverner]

18. Why is it not the point?

They're fighting over sand, as Bartcop puts it.

It worked in South Africa
It works in Singapore
It worked in Northern Ireland
It works in Malaysia
It works in India

Sure, there will be roadblocks, but there are ALWAYS roadblocks.

Hate is a harsh obstacle, but hate can always be conquered. Call me naive or panglossian but I truly believe that.

[rockymountaindem]

60. The point of Israel

is to have a state with a majority Jewish population. Once you combine Israel into a single state with the large Palestinian population, the whole raison d'etre of all the Jews living there ceases to exist. I'd wager that a lot of them would move to the US, Canada and Europe.

[The Stranger]

35. It looks as if it IS made the point, a horrible truth emerges.

A truth that is very difficult to face about oneself.

[rockymountaindem]

59. What truth is that?

I don't see what you're getting at?

[Ian David]

19. I think the whole WORLD should be one country with NO RELIGION

Artist: John Lennon
Song: Imagine

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

More:
http://www.lyrics007.com/John%20Lennon%20Lyrics/Imagine%20Lyrics.html

[Terran1212]

22. Religion brings people together if done correctly

[Ian David]

28. Well, not EVERY religion is on par with Pastafarianism

We are all touched by His Noodly Appendage.

[Terran1212]

38. >_>

[Taverner]

24. Well that's the end goal

And I'd love to see it too - but unfortunately I won't live that long. Neither will you, and most likely, neither will our kids.

[Ian David]

27. Sure, we will...

June 6, 2006 when Bush nukes Iran.

The End of The World.

The living will envy the dead.

If there are any living.

I don't think I'll bother paying my cable bill.

[Der Blaue Engel]

46. Ack!

Don't say that...I'm leaving for a month in Russia on 6/6/06!

:scared:

[Inland]

25. Yeah, pretty much.

At least in the near term. Right now, I can't see any better than the good fences, good neighbors concept, where there's a fair boundary and hard work to make the palestinian state viable. Maybe in a thousand years, there will be sufficient interaction and peace to make it like the US Canadian border, and in another thousand people will wonder why anyone thought it was needed in the first place.

[MADem]

29. I like the idea of Jerusalem as an international city-state unto itself

run by a board consisting of Christians, Muslims and Jews, with a rotating leadership. Sorta like the Vatican, but with plurality.

I don't see that happening, because all the religions have a ME ME ME/MINE MINE MINE attitude; but it would solve a lot of angst over the long haul if everyone could just GIVE a little.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

32. Crazy to want it? No.

To expect that it is feasible or even possible given the current state of things? I'm takin' the Fifth on that one.

[sweetheart]

33. You're crazy to think you can solve their problem

Not bonkers crazy, but a little askew out of your own domain.

Its ok, i can't help but apply the obvious solutions as well,
but people gotta learn for themselves. Clearly the people who
run those countries are not very smart, and the problem lies
in darwin's sacred trust.

They can claim to be smart, but they are violent and at war,
which makes them not smart, to have turned a holy land in to
a prison is not smart, nor is creating prison camps... so why
should we figure that a load of people who do systemically
stupid things, the nth crusade to take jerusalem, and once
again, the crusaders sit in their outposts surrounded by saladin,
and wonder if there is any historical equivalent at all to the
colonial taking of this same ground before by stupid people.

Maybe the ground is not holy at all, but stupid, and it
draws violence, hate and stupidity like a magnet.... holy place my ass.

I hope they sort their mess out. I am for cutting all ties.

[Orsino]

36. It's not crazy to *want* it...

...but it may be crazy to expect it.

I don't see that one Israel, between whatever arbitrary borders you accept, is any more needed than one world. Getting together peacefully is great, but why Israel in particular? It would be an amazing leap forward if these peoples could coexist without violence--whatever the colors on the map are, or who thumps what book.

[Fredda Weinberg]

37. Not crazy, but we won't be fooled again

Germany was a civilized nation, with constitutional rights - but when stress was applied, they reverted to nationalism. That was the lesson the Zionist fathers learned - there'd been a move to return to our ancestral home since the beginning of the 20th century, but the holocaust was the impetus toward gaining a modern state.

[Taverner]

39. Understood - but in doing so one might argue they became that which

They were trying to protect against...

ON EDIT: and keep in mind South Africa was seen by the Conservative Dutch (who became the Boers) as a place of safe haven as well.

Besides, if the only goal of Israel is a place to seek safe haven for Jews...then they didn't really choose a wise location don't you think?

[Fredda Weinberg]

42. Exactly, and we'll live to see another day

The Jewish National Fund tried buying land - the Arabs were told not to sell to Jews. After '48, with atrocities on both sides, Israel tried to live in peace - and faced armies from all sides in '67 and a blockade of the straits of Tiran. Before '67, Jews weren't allowed to visit the Western Wall, our holiest relic (I'm no longer religious, but remember the experience); now, all religions can practice their faith.

It's a cruel world, but I see my people doing their best to remain humane in the face of continuing provocation. I've met enough Israelies to know how the experience has hardened them ... that's why they call themselves Sabras, after the fruit with the tough exterior.

But they never questioned the need for a state where Jews could live as a self-governing nation - we tried to lose our identity in Europe, but learned a cruel lesson. So you won't find significant support for a one state solution, no matter the ethical superiority ... it just echoes of our recent past.

[mike_c]

58. so you wouldn't argue against white christians seizing land...

...in say, Idaho or Alabama to found a white christian state so they could have a self-governing nation, too? What about those Afrikans who tried that? Did you support their right to apartheid, as well?

No peoples' history of persecution excuses their becoming the subsequent generation of oppressors.

[cali]

45. And here's where your nice

panglossian thread turns into a flame war. I personally think you're on shaky ground if you argue that the Israelis have become Nazis. 20% of Israelis are Arabs. In Germany, prior to being put in concentration camps and exterminated, Jews were stripped of citizenship. Are things ideal for Arab Israelis? Hell no, but it's not comparable to Naze Germany. Should Israel end the Occupation of the West Bank? Absolutely. The wall and the retention of large settlements is morally wrong and illegal.

The Dutch may have seen S. Africa as a safe haven, but their dilemma was nothing like the catastrophe the Jews faced. I've long seen it this way: The Jews were like people jumping from a burning building. Unfortunately they landed on the Palestinians. Now that's a far from perfect metaphor, but it holds some truth. And yes, it's terribly unfair to the Palestinians, but it can hardly be undone now. Of course, There were a sizable number of Jews in Palestine prior to the influx during the '30s and '40s. In fact, Jerusalem was a majority Jewish city from 1900 on.

Regarding your 3rd point that the location wasn't a wise choice as far as safety goes, well yes, but that's hardly the only reason that this particular spot drew them there. I know there's a prayer that's been said by Jews for millennia- I confess I don't know much about it, but one line of it is "Next year in Jerusalem."

[Taverner]

49. No i'm not arguing that they have become Nazis

But that they have turned to Nationalism, as you stated. They aren't Nazis and the comparison shouldn't be made...but nationalists? I think we both agree on that.

I just argue that Nationalism, Sectarianism, Inclusivity and Ethnocentrism are diseases of the collective mind that should be eliminated...thats all...

[cali]

51. Agreed,

but nationalism or tribalism seems to be a hard drive part of the human makeup- lurking somewhere in our DNA. Of course some people have more of that genetic material than others, but it's a widespread trait. Take me, for example, I live in Vermont, and I'm neither patriotic or nationalistic, but man if you suggested that New Hampshire and Vermont become one state, I'd freak- and fight it. That's my tribalism kicking in. (and I'm only half kidding.)

[Poll_Blind]

43. "but when stress was applied, they reverted to nationalism"

This statement is true of Israel as well, though of course it is not Nazi Germany. But just as we in America have reverted to baser, nationalist instincts after 9/11 so has Israel. Especially after the Sharon and 1,000 of his closest rifle-bearing friends helped start the Second Intifada. Look at the conservative governments that country has elected recently. Kadima has yet to prove itself, but I hope it's a step in the right direction.

See The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel , the fifth section, specifically:



* Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

* Perhaps most importantly, Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

Are those intentions really part of the Israeli national character now? Have they ever been? I say yes, they have and they can again.

PB

[Fredda Weinberg]

52. Are you talking de Juris or de Facto?

Israeli Arabs have full civil rights, but I know from the scouts I met (I was a member of Hashomer Ha'Tazir in the US) that we're as clannish there as we are here. This is our national character and has nothing to do with Zionism.

Israel was born under stress - the war of Independence was fought on all fronts, just like '67. The issue of minority rights - for Christians as well as Muslims - was never the primary cause of concern. Israel had to become a viable state, economically, politically and diplomatically - she has succeeded on all those measures.

No, I don't a reversion to baser instincts ... Likud was a response to the socialism that inhibited economic growth - there have been several unity governments, so the differences between the right and left in Israel aren't about foreign policy - or the treatment of the occupied territories. Both sides, when in power, allowed "facts on the ground" to create more defensible borders.

Kadima is a new phenomenon - disengagement - which is a practical response to the inevitable demographic reality. Israel won't purge the territories of their occupants, nor will she annex them ... so she gave the Palestinian Authority the autonomy they craved and was willing to observe the results.

I'm afraid the experiment has turned out badly, but the difference now is that you don't have settlers in Gaza who need army protection. If the strip is re-occupied, security will be even tighter and yet, the Palestinian people may find improved standards of living.

I was listening to a Palestinian diplomat this morning on one of the C-Span channels glorifying struggle and boasting how his people would bear any burden. Sorry, but there's no glory in defeat - and the Intifada only hurt the people it was meant to liberate.

I don't know how you change such an attitude - but it existed before the state of Israel. Jews and Muslims have lived together peacefully for centuries, but only as long as Islam was predominant. I'm sure most Israeli Arabs wish they had other options, but they participate in the political system and opinion polls show they are not hostile to the Jewish state. Considering the state of the world, it's not a bad situation.

[Taverner]

54. What about the Ottoman Empire?

Jews were not just allowed but encouraged to migrate to Istanbul. And many set up their own governments and rule - and the Ottoman Empire was never an Islamic state. It was secular to the core.

[Fredda Weinberg]

57. What history book did you study?

The empire they built was the largest and most influential of the Muslim empires of the modern period, and their culture and military expansion crossed over into Europe. Not since the expansion of Islam into Spain in the eighth century had Islam seemed poised to establish a European presence as it did in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Like that earlier expansion, the Ottomans established an empire over European territory and established Islamic traditions and culture that last to the current day (the Muslims in Bosnia are the last descendants of the Ottoman presence in Europe).

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/OTTOMAN/OTTOMAN1.HTM

[Sinti]

40. There was talk about this before the current State of Israel existed

Unfortunately, even in those days the Mufti would have nothing to do with it.

"The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

Post WWII and after "repatriation" things could only get worse. The Jews knew the Palestinians via their previous leaders behavior and beliefs, and the Palestinians, well... they were really no better. Even recently when Arafat was offered everything they had previously asked for, he rejected the deal.

The feud can only be tackled by the participants, and you need TWO willing persons with popular support to get it done. The worst part is, a lot of these people probably share some ancestors.

Is it crazy to want people to live in brotherhood, regardless of religion/race/enter your difference of choice here? Nah, the people who don't want that are crazy.

[The Stranger]

48. Isn't the mufti dead?

Great. Next question.

[fujiyama]

41. I wouldn't say your crazy

but it simply will not work, atleast anytime soon. I wouldn't mind being proved wrong - provided it truly was a secular state.

Isreal was founded as a Jewish state - as a safe haven for Jews all over. Its people do not want to give up that concept. By giving up their own control of the land, many would find it to be jeapordizing the idea of a safe haven. The two peoples have vastly difference histories and cultures. Israel itself operates more like a European country in the middle east than an Arab country. It is far more liberal than the surrounding nations. OTOH, the Palestinian territories elected Hamas, a fundamentalist Islamist group. Plus, what's to say it would remain secular? Both Jews and Muslims would fight for their religion to have prominence in any government that was formed. Since demographic estimates show much greater birthrates among Palestinians than Israelis, Israelis would feel especially threatened in giving up control.

Also, psycho Likudnik settlers and their insane fundy backers in the US would fight just as hard to oppose this as their Palestinian Islamist counterparts.

And what happens to Israeli nukes? Do you really think Israeli military and government would allow those to fall into their sworn enemies?

If this kind of dream is to be successful, it will take many more years of reconciling.

[Lexingtonian]

44. Insightful, not crazy

It's destiny, but getting there will take another 3-4 generations and a bunch of transitional "solutions" that must, necessarily, be pretended to be enduring. Like the "two state solution" that is in the forming at the moment. Neither people is yet willing or able to make the changes in its power or identity to realize the integrated society it entails. But there was a brief moment, in 1993-94, in which both sides recognized that it was a genuine long term possibility. The reactionaries on both sides went utterly wild when they realized this, of course, and the great tragedies and fights in the land- Second Intifadah, the brutish and murderous assaults by both sides, the assassination of Rabin, the killing and disempowering of moderates and compromisers on all levels- since are all derivatives and resistance to this brief moment in which the future could be seen.

It was suggested in the early days of the formation of the state of Israel in the form of the "one state solution". Which was, essentially, shouted down on both sides. Its most famous advocate was Martin Buber. He will be proven right that it is Israeli destiny in due course.

The real question to me and other people is the religious one- in what form Judaism survives, and in what numbers. It can and will not remain crudely tribal in its outward forms and manifestations over the next several generations. Some regard this reality in the making as a catastrophic development and resist it passionately. Others see opportunity, though of a difficult kind, in this.

[Taverner]

47. Judaism is a living religion - and will always change

It changed when Johanan ben Zakkai set up the first Yeshivas
It changed when Moses Mendelssohn set up camp

And it will change again

[Lexingtonian]

53. well...

Reform Judaism in the United States is already going down one part of the next road. American Conservative Judaism seems to be nearing the middle of its quandary. There's the 'Generation J' and Renewal aspects. There's the post-Orthodox 'secular' thing that's being done in Israel. With the various orthodox sectors mostly reactionary, but changing too.

There's a lot of ferment and sorting out.

[Tom Joad]

50. The PLO was calling for one secular democratic state decades ago.

It then accepted a two-state solution.
I think circumstances make it impossible for a two-state solution to work in the long-term or even the short-term

[Lithos]

61. Locking per I/P guidelines

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece. They may not be based on editorial cartoons or photographs. Citations and references should include a link to the original source. Exceptions will be allowed if, based on prior approval, the moderators feel a thread is appropriate.


Lithos
DU Moderator