Former Military Chief: Keep West Bank

[King Mongo]

April 28, 2006


WASHINGTON — Moshe Yaalon, the recently retired chief of staff of the Israeli military, is a kibbutznik from a Labor movement background. But in sharp contrast to the retired military men entering the next Knesset, Yaalon is the rare, and arguably most important, retired Israeli general to publicly oppose unilateral Israeli withdrawals from the West Bank and Gaza.

Yaalon, who in many circles is credited as the military leader most responsible for Israel's success in curbing Palestinian terrorism in the past few years, has made his opposition known in recent months in a series of speeches and publications in Israel and the United States. The former chief of staff has harshly criticized the two-state solution as unviable and chastised Israeli leaders for offering "illusions" to the public. He laments what he describes as widespread combat-fatigue among Israelis and says Israel must come to grips with many more years of needing to occupy the West Bank.

His argument is simple: The Palestinian leadership, whether Hamas of Fatah, still strives to destroy Israel. Only when Palestinians give up the dream of reclaiming their pre-1948 communities inside Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state will peace be possible. Until then, Israel must show strength, fight terrorism with all its might and not reward terrorists or expose the country's volatile eastern border to attacks by withdrawing. It will take at least a generation — probably more than one — for the Palestinian society to ripen for peace negotiations. Until then, Israelis have to simply toughen up and continue fighting.

snip

http://www.forward.com/articles/7710

[King Mongo]

1. Good argument

A one-state solution with citizenship and equality for everyone is indeed the best solution. It is very possible that Palestinians living in Diaspora will forever dream of returning home and the best method of dealing with this situation is to allow the people to return home.

If, however, Israel were to reject a two-State solution adn reject equality and citizenship for everyone, then conditions of apartheid would certainly not be beneficial for anyone.

[halla]

2. diaspora

it needs to be remembered that the largest plurality in israel are jews who fled arab lands. some 930 thousand by some accounts. it also needs to be remembered that the concept of 'right of return' for the progeny of 'palestinians' was arbitrarilty defined by unwra and not by unhrc. what we have here is the proposition that all refugees are equal but the palestinian refugee is more equal. it needs to be remembered that under un resolution 194 the palestinians had the option of returning to their homes and living at peace with their neighbors. they and the arab rejected that and pursued war. the relevant clause to 194 is:

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

since ample time for returning under peace has passed and since it was the palestinians and arabs that initiated hostilities they are the responsible party.

another point of interest is the arbitrary nature of what was a refugee: two years residency and or loss of income.

there is also evidence that the numbers of refugees were padded because of humanitarian concerns for the poor in the area.

anecdotally, i read an article where egyptian women were marrying palestinian men from refugee camps because they considered them rich.

here is a quote giving testimony to the 'palestinian' identity:

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel..."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)

[not systems]

3. questions

>another point of interest is the arbitrary nature of what was a refugee: two years residency and or loss of income.

Surely a two thousand year old claim is at least as arbitrary?


>anecdotally, i read an article where egyptian women were marrying palestinian men from refugee camps because they considered them rich.

Some propaganda screed used the "they are rich" line, and that make what difference to law or rights?

...
"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel..."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
...

Can you give a link to your source for this quote?

[halla]

4. claim

the jewish claim to the area is not because jews were not living in the area. they were. the claim is not against any established people, government society because there was none. i view it as having some parallels to the american indigenous people with the tsunami of great whites floating over in their big boats and being promised much from the great white hope.

to say that the jewish 'claim' is arbitrary puts an interesting light on the self-defined (unwra being nearly all palestinian employed with a token eu presence) two year residency requirement/adverse economic impact called for under the special definition of palestinian refugee.


to this:

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel..."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
...

Can you give a link to your source for this quote?

you can not depend upon me but to a bit of search on your own: just copy the quote and punch it into google and you will get:

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 44,500 for Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel...". (1.81 seconds)

and cull the results for your particular needs.

to this: Some propaganda screed used the "they are rich" line, and that make what difference to law or rights?

rights?? interesting use of rights when they are self asserted by a sub-population (palestinian arabs) only recently defined as separate from larger population (arabs in general)that denies 'rights' to sub groups (one might read dhimmi status) one only need to understand the near absence of jews in arablands when only 60 years ago there were nearly a million jews living in arabland. one need only read about the plight of the coptics in egypt to understand that it is not a particularly jewish defined condition. the list goes on and on.

but to refer to my passing remark as screed gives a propagandist patina to what was an anecdotal fact. no one said the refugees are rich, although they get a disproportionate share of 'refugee' monies plus a special status at the great UN. what i was pointing out was as poor as the palestinian refugees may be relative to the great whites of the EU and the rest of the western fat cats they are not poor when the comparison visits their immediate neighbors.
and no one was relating relative richness to any rights or laws. why did you bring it into the argument?? an agenda you wish to explore/exploit??

[not systems]

12. danielpipes.org

Is this link the source you used for your quote?

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/3380

Or was it one of the other extremist discussion boards
with the same quote cut and pasted to support a claim
that the idea of a Palestinian people and nation is
illegitimate?

[halla]

16. no

sorry. try again.

[Englander]

22. How about this one?

Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian
identity serves only tactical purposes. The
founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool
in the continuing battle against Israel ...
-- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head
of the PLO and member of its Executive
Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/mythology.html

[halla]

23. no

[halla]

24. extremist!!??

"Is this link the source you used for your quote?

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/3380

Or was it one of the other extremist discussion boards
with the same quote cut and pasted to support a claim
that the idea of a Palestinian people and nation is
illegitimate?"

i do not see pipes as extremist. and i do not claim the "idea of a Palestinian people/nation as illegitimate". i would prefer to call them emergent. which is pretty good when the initial requirements were two years residency don't you think.

let's go to pipes, your definition of extremist:

"The UN High Commission for Refugees applies the term "refugee" worldwide to someone who, "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted... is outside the country of his nationality." Being outside the country of his nationality implies that descendants of refugees are not refugees. Cubans who flee the Castro regime are refugees, but not so their Florida-born children, who lack Cuban nationality. Afghans who flee their homeland are refugees, but not their Iranian-born children. And so on.

The UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), an organization set up uniquely for Palestinian refugees in 1949, defines Palestinian refugees differently from all other refugees. They are persons who lived in Palestine "between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." Especially important is that UNRWA extends refugee status to "the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948." It even considers the children of just one Palestinian refugee parent to be refugees."

http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding_pipes.html

now, labelly by you as extremist, what are the factual errors in the above statements.

bear in mind the jews that fled arablands would fall under the UN High Commission of Refugees and the "palestinian" refugees would fall under UNWRA's definition.

[not systems]

27. Pipes is a extremist and...

a well known anti-Arab bigot.

"i do not see pipes as extremist."

How you see him depends on your own point of view.

[halla]

28. is there a substantive error in the pipe's quote

broad-bush labeling is too convenient and smacks of a fl acid intellect. especially when a specific quote has been rendered. please point out either the 'extremism' or the error of the following.


Is this link the source you used for your quote?

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/3380

Or was it one of the other extremist discussion boards
with the same quote cut and pasted to support a claim
that the idea of a Palestinian people and nation is
illegitimate?"

i do not see pipes as extremist. and i do not claim the "idea of a Palestinian people/nation as illegitimate". i would prefer to call them emergent. which is pretty good when the initial requirements were two years residency don't you think.

let's go to pipes, your definition of extremist:

"The UN High Commission for Refugees applies the term "refugee" worldwide to someone who, "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted... is outside the country of his nationality." Being outside the country of his nationality implies that descendants of refugees are not refugees. Cubans who flee the Castro regime are refugees, but not so their Florida-born children, who lack Cuban nationality. Afghans who flee their homeland are refugees, but not their Iranian-born children. And so on.

The UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), an organization set up uniquely for Palestinian refugees in 1949, defines Palestinian refugees differently from all other refugees. They are persons who lived in Palestine "between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." Especially important is that UNRWA extends refugee status to "the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948." It even considers the children of just one Palestinian refugee parent to be refugees."

http://www.factsandlogic.org/outstanding_pipes.html

now, labelly by you as extremist, what are the factual errors in the above statements.

bear in mind the jews that fled arablands would fall under the UN High Commission of Refugees and the "palestinian" refugees would fall under UNWRA's definition.

[not systems]

29. broad-bush labeling?

Here is a good post by another poster on the subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=849033&mesg_id=849441

A Pipes quote from the post:

"West European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and not exactly maintaining Germanic standards of hygiene."


Here is article on the same topic:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0828-06.htm

Bush Appointee is a Bigot Disguised as a Scholar
by Fedwa Wazwaz


President Bush's back-door appointment of Daniel Pipes to the United States Institute for Peace is an act of injustice. This appointment, which bypassed the normal approval process in the Senate, allowed a racist to masquerade as a peacemaker.

What are Pipes' qualifications? His resume reads:

• Launched Campus Watch, a Web site that included "dossiers" on professors and academic institutions thought to be too critical of Israel or too sympathetic to Islam and Muslims.

• Advocated the unrestricted profiling of Muslims and Arabs.

• Declared that 10 to 15 percent of all Muslims are "potential killers."

• Recommended the "vigilant application of social and political pressure to ensure that Islam is not accorded special status of any kind in this country."

...

[halla]

31. black/brown/sickly white

to the first assault: are not the moslems brown skinned? although i am not a moslem i am considered "brown skinned"
surely you understand we live in a world where "black is beautiful" so brown may not have the luster/intensity of black, it is surely better than pasty white. most "great whites" as i like to call them, are fat and sickly in appearance. as far as german hygiene is concerned, our immune systems are best developed when tested. sterile bodies are like sterile minds, sterile. i prefer to engage the world at its integrated best. i am an advocate for dawkins/darwin. surely one of the most polluted places on earth are the white clad hospitals. keep your hospital staphylococcals. brown may not be as beautiful as black, but it is certainly better than anemic white

[halla]

33. pipes qualification by Fedwa Wazwaz

it appears mr wazwaz left out a few qualifications. permit to me fill in mr wazwaz's ignorance:


Background
Pipes was born in Boston, Massachusetts, the son of Harvard historian Richard Pipes and his wife Irene (née Roth). Both Pipes' parents were from assimilated Polish Jewish families that escaped from Poland in 1939. The couple met in the United States in 1944, and married two years later. Daniel was their first child.

Pipes attended the Harvard pre-school, then received a private school education, partly abroad. He enrolled in Harvard University in the fall of 1968; for his first two years he studied mathematics, but has stated: "I wasn't smart enough. So I chose to become a historian." He credits visits to the Sahara Desert in 1968 and the Sinai Desert in 1969 for piquing his interest in Arabic, and for the following two years he studied the Middle East. Pipes obtained a B.A. in history in 1971; his senior thesis was titled A Medieval Islamic Debate: The World Created in Eternity, a study of Al-Ghazali, one of the greatest jurists, theologians and mystical thinkers in the Islamic tradition.

He returned to Harvard in 1973 and obtained a Ph.D. in medieval Islamic history in 1978. His Ph.D. dissertation eventually became his first book, Slave Soldiers and Islam, in 1981. He studied abroad for six years, three of which were spent in Egypt, where he wrote a book on colloquial Egyptian Arabic which was published in 1983. He speaks French and English and can read Arabic and German. He taught world history at the University of Chicago from 1972 to 1982, history at Harvard from 1983 to 1984, and policy strategy at the Naval War College from 1984 to 1986.

Pipes has served in various capacities at the Departments of State and Defense, and has testified to the United States Congress. He has been awarded honorary doctorates from universities in Switzerland and the United States.

PIPES

now i must correct mr wazwaz's "Declared that 10 to 15 percent of all Muslims are "potential killers."


from the article provided, i quote pipes: "For one, not all Muslims hate the West. Muslims who most hate the West-the fundamentalists-constitute a small minority in most places. Survey research and elections suggest that dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalists most places constitute no more than 10 percent of the Muslim population. Muslims are not fanatical by nature, but are frustrated by their current predicament. Most of them wish less to destroy the West than to enjoy its benefits."

mr wazwaz has propelled himself into a hyperbolic unreality. pipes did not declare that 10/15 percent of all moslems are "potential killers" but that research declared than no more than 10 percent of moslems dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist. surely there is no equivalency here.

mr wazwas diatribe on pipes makes further claims which may/maynot be influenced by mr wazwaz prejudice.

let's move on to the demographics of the EUnuchs vs the fecundity of the "brown skinned" people.

it is a well known fact that the great whites of EUnuch-land are too self envovled to procreate at a sustainable rate and that the "browned skinned" people, valuing progeny, do and that overtime that which does not produce will be supplanted by that which does produce.(simple economic demographics) so while the 'great whites' are having great thoughts the "browns" are having great families. this is not to say the 'great whites' do not have progeny and it does not mean the "browns" do not have great thoughts. only that the statistics are skewered each differently. the words of the great whites may end in trash bins unless the "browns" find value in the "great whites" words. given that the moslems of europe have voted early on this issue by not assimilating into the EUnuch culture, one wonders if the churches will be turned into mosque. think sophia mosque in turkey. recently the white swedes nixed the moslem's request for special laws concerning moslems:

» Swedish Muslims Want Separate Laws Swedish Muslims Want ...
Brussels Journal, Belgium - 14 hours ago
... Muslim organization in Sweden, has written a letter to all the parties in the Swedish parliament to demand that separate legislation be introduced for Muslims. ...

now let's think canada:

CBC News Indepth: IslamWhy have Shariah law in Canada? Many Muslims believe that because Canada is a ... Shariah law they want to set up but a Muslim Personal/Family Law process ...
www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

think britain, home of the living neanderthals:

Dispatch from the Eurabian Front: Sharia Law in the West?19) in Britain’s Sunday Telegraph, reveals that four out of every ten British Muslims want Sharia law introduced in areas of the country which are ...
www.brusselsjournal.com/node/864/print - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

i could continue....

these countries have rejected "special laws" for moslems. for now. when the moslems reach a critical mass as manifest by some percentage, the secular resistance by aging self envolved great whites will go flaccid and the moslems will have their sharia law: special laws for muslims. so the alleged pipe's "vigilant application of social and political pressure to ensure that Islam is not accorded special status of any kind in this country." has some merit. read some history about the collapse of the christian populations in arablands.

[not systems]

39. "i could continue...."

please do, like a carnival sideshow act I stare in
shock and horror yet can't look away.

"think britain, home of the living neanderthals"

unusual.

"...the great whites of EUnuch-land are too self envovled to procreate at a sustainable rate and that the "browned skinned" people, valuing progeny, do..."

Halla where do you hail from and are you doing your part avoid Eunuchhood?

I am looking for some context to understand your David Duke like ranting.

[halla]

40. david duke and the continuum!

the duke is a white supremest, i, on the other hand, am an off-white iconoclast. perhaps, your desire to have 'context' to my david duke rantings reflect the shadows working the walls of your cranium. proving that the really real is really apparent, reflections delimited by personal conceits. if context is 'framed content' and you admittedly have none relating to me, then one wonders about the presumption in your conclusion- david duke like rantings.

since it is your claim of isomorphism between mine and dukes rantings, could your tweet an example or two to prove your assertion?? to relieve me of my ignorance or to demonstrate yours.

".. the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error." john stuart mills

so mr. continuum, author an errata. no off-color remarks please.

[cali]

30. Yes an extremist and

other posters have provided plenty of evidence to back it up. He's a truly frightening and repugnant person. You might want to reconsider quoting him.

[halla]

45. let us not be the missing link

the danger of the stepford 'talk alikes' is frightening. especially where a particular instance was afforded for rebuttal and in place of thoughtful rebuttal we get stepford 'pablum'. once again go back to the halla post from which you made your response and do the responsible thing, argue it. smearing doesn't add to the collective enlightenment, it only cloaks ignorance. let's us not devolve into the "LORD OF THE FLIES", whereby the 'tyranny of the mob' rules. relieve me of my ignorance or prove yours. argue content/context.

in the nutshell: justify the special status that pipes proves with the UNWRA definition of refugee with applies only to the then newly minted 'Palestinian' and the UNCHR's definition that applies to all others making this true: all refugees are created equal, but some refugees are more equal.

[Tom Joad]

57. Pipes not extremist? I beg to differ.

He was the one advising the reagan administration to arm Saddam so as to encourage more blood-letting in the Iran-Iraq war. See The New Republic on April 27, 1987

Also a big advisor to Bush2 to attack Iraq. Now that's going swell, ain't it.

also said things like "Conditions of peace have, by and large, been created through military victory"-- Daniel Pipes

And if one looks at the hysterics of FrontPageMag.com, you see the most right-wing and vile stuff one can imagine. Unless you are into that kind of stuff.

[halla]

60. ah, an assertion without a link to reality

don't be a missing link, link up and support your assertions so we may contextualize your putative content! at least the labeling only is missing.

[not systems]

62. link?

Halla you have yet to provide any supporting evidence that
Pipes isn't an extremist.

Further more you didn't comment on the links I provided
except in poetic statements of questionable content.

I offer as exhibit #1 that Pipes is an extremist the fact
the Bush appointed him to the United States Institute for Peace.

I think this speaks volumes about his credentials and his supporters.

[halla]

61. new republic and pipes.

"He was the one advising the Reagan administration to arm Saddam so as to encourage more blood-letting in the Iran-Iraq war. See The New Republic on April 27, 1987"

indeed true,except for the promoting of 'blood-letting. i think the reader needs to understand the context.

It's Time for a U.S. Tilt
by Daniel Pipes and Laurie Malorie


why was it time for a 'tilt'?? and would the blood-letting have been stanched if Khomeini has run over Saddam??

what would have been the significance of an Iraq collapse??

source

annecdotally, i find it interesting that we damn when we support Saddam and we damn when we overthrow him.

i also find it interesting that the per diem 'kill' under Saddam reign was on average 3 to 4 times what it is under the coalition. even when death by insurgent is included.

[not systems]

63. per diem 'kill'

No props to Saddam but that is blood drenched lie.

Link?

[Tom Joad]

65. Enjoy your stay at DU.

It will be brief.

Yes it was crazy and extreme to arm Saddam.

Yes it is crazy to invade a sovereign country.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. Hey, complain about the mods, not about me.

I don't think posting offtopic is against the rules.

Spewing RW propaganda, on the other hand...

[halla]

56. fellow atheist

inadequacies have been laid bare about the style of argument. ie, labeling. i thought that content and not label would excite one of such depth and breath of erudition. a mere dismissive wag of the tongue and 'off with you' hardly scores points in the thinking department. fellow atheist, i mean no harm in trying to excite the neurons. i shall search for a thinking person elsewhere. ta ta

[halla]

5. a one legged argunent has a hard time standing on its own so..

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel..."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
...

Can you give a link to your source for this quote?

since i gave you a plethora of linkies to that quote, i would like to add that argument built upon one statement can tetter on that one statement so in the interest of building stable argument i would like to add another two legs to form a milking stool from which you can squeeze as ease.

"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel..."
- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council (Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977)
...

leg two: Abdul Malik Dahamshe, an Israeli Arab Knesset member, said
at a solidarity visit in Damascus, Syria January 24, 1995]:

"Palestine and Syria are one homeland. The Arab people will win by the
sword; the victory will be won by the Jihad of the Arab world."

leg three: Statement by Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi to the Pell Commission in 1937
"There is no such country as 'Palestine'; 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"

i must say my favorite quote is the last one about palestine being a zionist's invention! and i thought it was an artifact of roman proportions!!

[King Mongo]

6. It is best to recognize that both Palestine and Israel exist....

...unless one supports apartheid or citizenship and equality for everyone in a one-State solution. I think that it makes sense to support a one or two-State solution since apartheid is not desirable.

[halla]

7. apartheid

interesting introduction into the apartheid concept, given that israel is 20% other than jewish. but there it is, the new vogue. but perhaps there is another definition of apartheid that includes the recognition not only of another's culture, religion, language which is what israel does for its largest minority the moslem palestinians. in fact the arabic language is an official language in israel and also israel provide stipends for imams! a rather remarkable set of facts given that is has been labeled apartheid (A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups)!

given the hostilities between the parties, as evidenced through the decades, a separate 'palestinian state' is an inevitability. but this state needs true separation from israel: ie infrastructure, employment, trade etc until such a time that the suicide bombing looses it luster within the palestinian community. having a separate state doesn't allow on party to demand the 'demographic' poison pill into the body of israel. what is the purpose of the palestinian state if the so called right of return, that very special 'right' espoused by the arabs, is demanded. it needs to be remembered that some 930 thousand jews living in arab lands left because of the spillover from the creation of israel.

but i get ahead of the argument. i'm not into saturation argument. i await!

[King Mongo]

8. Israel must recognize that Palestine exists...

... in order for there to not be a condition of apartheid. The same rule applies to Palestinians.

[halla]

11. being PC with apartheid

"Israel must recognize that Palestine exists in order for there to not be a condition of apartheid. The same rule applies to Palestinians."

that does not fit with the definition of apartheid per Israel.

now the definition of apartheid with some variations on the theme:

An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.

A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

how can any of these attributes be applied to Israel?? the Palestinian Arabs have political representation of about 12%, the are active in using the courts and engage in commerce. that they is prejudice is acknowledge by the Israeli society and the courts (Orr commission report) i have read the the Israeli courts are active in attacking ethnic prejudice in Israel in such areas as housing and medicine.

that you have a separation of populations caused by decades of violence and vitriol cannot be called apartheid. it is not unreasonable to for separation during an existential threat.the impetus toward separation is the ethnic directed violence against the Israeli and not ethnicity. if it were ethnicity Israel would have the same % of Arabs as the Arab have of Jews, essentially 0%. there is a condition in ecology called ecologic extinction. that is a condition under which so few of a group exists as to make them nonviable. for 5000 years Jews have lived in Arab lands and only recently have they become nonviable. they will be extinct from arablands soon. actually they are already extinct in Libya and Saudi Arabia.

how interesting that arabland can be void of jews and the word apartheid is not employed but israel with 20% arab population is labeled racist/apartheid!!

[King Mongo]

19. You have the right to believe that as you wish...

...but others will continue to believe that conditions of apartheid are indeed apartheid. Both sides have the right to make their arguments. If you want to read other views, have a look here:

BISHOP DESMOND TUTU, the South African Nobel Prize winner, described how he saw on his visit to Israel "much like what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about" (1). Comparisons between apartheid South Africa and
Israel/Palestine have often been made, but not always clearly explained. Many factors have made the comparison attractive.
http://mondediplo.com/2003/11/04apartheid

As I pointed out, Israel would indeed not be an Apartheid State if Israel recognized that Palestine exists as an independent unoccupied nation or recognized citizenship and equality for everyone in a one-State solution.

As for Arab States, I agree that Jews from Arab States need to be encouraged to return home and that the nations of the world need to be pressured to treat their citizens equally regardless of race or religion. Encouraging people to leave nations due to race or religion does not help those nations to encourage the toleration of others.

[halla]

25. true or false: israel/palestinians south africa/blacks

you are implying an analogy: israel/palestinians <=>south africa/blacks. now the strength of an analogy is defined by the strength of the correspondence.

apartheid defined is:

An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
The condition of being separated from others; segregation.

certainly in israel that does not apply.

the territories

the territories are under the cloud of occupied/disputed. the territories are also the source of terror against israel sanctioned by the quasi governments both past an present. as the administrator/occupier of the territories israel has the right to control for the terror.

now to DESMOND TUTU's: "much like what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about"

my question to you is this: was there a similar state of terror engaged in by the blacks against the whites in south africa as has been engaged in by the palestinians against israelis?? without that then TUTU's analogy falls apart. why does it fall apart? because the reason for the 'restricted movement' is incessant terror by the palestinians.

since there have been thousands of attacks against israeli civilians emanating from the territories you would need to supply a proportional number of terror attacks by the blacks against the white population of south africa. toward that end i afford the following link:

2005 Terrorism Review... 2990 terrorist attacks were perpetrated against Israeli targets in 2005. ... An increase in the number of terrorist attacks was also apparent in Judea, ...
www.mfa.gov.il/.../ Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/2005+Terrorism+Review.htm - 58k - Cached - Similar pages

2005 was a good year since arafat refused barak's offer and the intifada was initiated/instigated by the palestinians.

"The year 2005 was marked by the "tahdia" (declared calm) that was announced on 22 January 2005 and according to which, the Palestinian groups committed themselves to refrain from perpetrating terrorist actions against Israel."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/2005+Terrorism+Review.htm

[Andromeda]

9. Welcome to DU, halla...

:hi:

[halla]

15. thank you

from sunny arizona!

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Israel has never allowed the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes

n/t

[halla]

13. never is never alone, it has context

Israel has never allowed a hostile population that colluded with other Arab nations toward Israel's destruction to return to their home. read united nations resolution 194 very carefully. and remember that only recently have the Arabs, Palestinians included, come to acknowledge 194, albeit with some stigmatization. arafat, the terror clown, read 'right of return' into 194. an inherent absurdity.

no sane entity would invite their killer into their home. to show just how far the palestinians have come i will quote form the hamas covenant:
....
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
.....
Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:"

we could go into some of Arafat's the terror clown, quotes. but i would like to save them for another time.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Arafat the 'terror clown'???

What the hell is this crap?

btw, welcome to DU. There seems to have been an influx of very new posters in the past few days...

Violet...

[ShalachEtAmi]

26. Well DU is a popular board...

You get more opinions,more discussions with more...new and `interesting` people. DU probably eventually gets more donations,more memberships and more readers.

[halla]

36. interesting people

i believe in broadband diversity and gore's information superhighway.

[halla]

35. terror clown

that is my nom deguerre for arafat. do you like it?? we all have our appliqué for public figures don't we? you do have yours don't you? think bush/sharon/cheney<=>shrub/butcher/vp for torture.

surely the little egyptian being the father of the palestinian people while simultaneously ripping them off has the ring of the circus/or at least a dog and pony show.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Immature crap...

Anyone who uses terms like 'terror clown' is displaying the obvious fact that they're not interested in any sort of genuine discussion. I don't tend to use any stupid terms for public leaders, btw...

What has being the father of the Palestinian people while ripping them off got to do with being a 'terror clown'?????

Violet...

[halla]

44. 'immature crap' responds

U: "I don't tend to use any stupid terms for public leaders, btw..."

ME: btw, since 'tend' presumes at least one case of 'use' then you have admitted to at least one use of 'stupid terms'

given that you have, by the logic of deduction, used at least one 'stupid term' and i have by 'empiricals' have used one and only one, it would appear that if you were to use your conclusion concerning 'genuine discussion' you would be ahead of the line. the homogenized reality of stepford posting doesn't exist. progressives understand the lumps and bumps of argument, just like cosmologists understand the diverse universe we live is the results of early lumps and bumps. they called it the primordial stew. it certainly wasn't a highly processed uniformity that manifest itself in the rainbow of existence. a one color reality is evidence of narcissism!


U: "What has being the father of the Palestinian people while ripping them off got to do with being a 'terror clown'?????"

Other than the 'father' ripping off his 'children' of their largess generously given by the world community, nothing. if that were the limits of the 'father'/'children' nexus, it's use would not be justified. my use of the concept "terror clown" for the egyptian father of the palestinian people is based upon other factors.

1. arafat's signing of the oslo, concomitant with:

2. arafat's active participation in terror, katrina a

3. arafat's incitement of the palestinian young in shahid events.

the premeditated intifada by palestinian authorities

all going on while the egyptian was posturing his "peace of the brave"

all making for a circus of reality orchestrated by chairman, president, ra'is: 'terror clown' arafat.

*********************************************************************************************
prince bandar's quote about about arafat's rejection of camp david 200 being a "crime"

prez clinton quote about arafat's not signing being a "colossal historical blunder"

dennis ross blaming arafat for the collapse of negotiations.

[dajudem]

14. you are mistaken....

MYTH

"Israel refused to allow Palestinians to return to their homes so Jews could steal their property."

FACT

Israel could not simply agree to allow all Palestinians to return, but consistently sought a solution to the refugee problem. Israel's position was expressed by David Ben­Gurion (August 1, 1948):

When the Arab states are ready to conclude a peace treaty with Israel this question will come up for constructive solution as part of the general settlement, and with due regard to our counter­claims in respect of the destruction of Jewish life and property, the long-term interest of the Jewish and Arab populations, the stability of the State of Israel and the durability of the basis of peace between it and its neighbors, the actual position and fate of the Jewish communities in the Arab countries, the responsibilities of the Arab governments for their war of aggression and their liability for reparation, will all be relevant in the question whether, to what extent, and under what conditions, the former Arab residents of the territory of Israel should be allowed to return.46

The Israeli government was not indifferent to the plight of the refugees; an ordinance was passed creating a Custodian of Abandoned Property "to prevent unlawful occupation of empty houses and business premises, to administer ownerless property, and also to secure tilling of deserted fields, and save the crops...."47

The implied danger of repatriation did not prevent Israel from allowing some refugees to return and offering to take back a substantial number as a condition for signing a peace treaty. In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.48

The Arabs rejected all the Israeli compromises. They were unwilling to take any action that might be construed as recognition of Israel. They made repatriation a precondition for negotiations, something Israel rejected. The result was the confinement of the refugees in camps.

Despite the position taken by the Arab states, Israel did release the Arab refugees' blocked bank accounts, which totaled more than $10 million, paid thousands of claimants cash compensation and granted thousands of acres as alternative holdings.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#c

[Violet_Crumble]

17. No, you are...

You just posted something that said that Israel didn't allow the refugees to return to their homes. Let me repeat. Israel has NEVER allowed the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes. Instead of posting biased stuff from a website that's not particularly interested in factuality, do you have anything more substantial to add to the discussion?

Violet...

[dajudem]

20. I gave you a source in response to your unsourced

accusation/allegation that said: "Israel has NEVER allowed the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes."

My source said:

In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.48

You may not like the source but if you want to refute it, let's see what your evidence is. I am quite sure that the site I posted is definitely interested in "factuality"; now let's see yours.

you will find a similiar acknowledgement here: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Instead of partisan internet sources lacking in factuality...

Here's some actual books for you to go and read that will show that Israel has NEVER agreed to allow the Palestinian refugees (btw, I hope yr aware that there's many more than 100,000 refugees)...

I can assure you from first hand experience that the site in question is NOT interested in factuality. Don't make the mistake of thinking that coz you agree with it then it must be right, coz in quite a few cases it's not. It deliberately omits information or interprets information in a very partisan way...

Since you don't see a problem with biased sources, I'll start off by giving you one that clearly states that Israel never allowed the refugees to return to their homes:

The majority of Palestinian refugees are from villages, towns and cities inside 1948 Palestine/Israel. They were denationalized under Israel's 1952 Nationality Law and prevented from returning to their homes of origin. Internally displaced Palestinians became citizens of Israel but were also prevented from returning to their homes. The government of Israel expropriated land and properties belonging to these refugees and IDPs to be held in perpetuity for Jewish use.



The remaining Palestinian refugees and IDPs are from 1967 occupied Palestine. A small number of refugees were permitted to return from Jordan in September 1967 under a process facilitated by the Red Cross. All others were prevented from returning to their homes of origin. Israel considers Palestinians in 1967 occupied Palestine as resident aliens. Israel has expropriated or controls for Jewish use approximately two-thirds of Palestinian owned land in these territories. Before 1948 Palestinians owned more than ninety percent of the land in Palestine. Today they own or have access to only ten percent.

http://www.badil.org/Refugees/refugees.htm

Now for the books

The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim
At the Lausanne conference the two main bones of contention were refugees and territory. Israel's position on the former was clear and emphatic: the Arab states were responsible for the refugee problem, so responsibility for solving it rested with them. Israel was willing to make a modest financial contribution toward the resolution of this prolbme but only as part of an overall settlement of the confict and only if the refugees were to be resettled in Arab countries.(p58)

At first Moshe Sharett rejected Sasson's advice, but unrelenting American pressure induced him to propose to the cabinet the issuing of a declaration stating Israel's willingness to take back 100,000 refugees. This number included around 30,000 refugees who had already been permitted to return to join their families. Yet Ben-Gurion opposed this proposal on the grounds that it would not satisfy either the Americans or the Arabs and would be harmful to Israel's security. The cabinet eventually authorized Sharett to try out a watered-down version of his proposal on the Americans. The Americans welcomed the idea but expressed disappointment at the small number of refugees Israel was prepared to take back. The Arabs considered the offer to accept 100,000 refugees wholly inadequate, and the official talks at Lausanne once again reached a dead end.(p59)

A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples by Ilan Pappe
The government in Jerusalem was constantly on the alert lest the international community insist on implementing the commitment it had made to the refugees in Resolution 194. To avert this, the Israeli government began, in August 1948, to execute an anti-repatriation policy, which resulted in either the total destruction or full Jewish take-over of every deserted Palestinian house and dwelling, both in the villages and the urban neighbourhoods. (p145)

And since I spotted you referring to Palestinians as 'the so-called Palestinians' in another post, here is a book you really should read so that you'll understand why denial of the existance of the Palestinian people is actually a rather bigoted stance. The book is 'The Palestinian People: A History' by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal. There's other books that you can go and look at to see why any claim that Israel has ever agreed to take back the Palestinian refugees is a ridiculous claim...

Violet...

[ShalachEtAmi]

32. Good lesson in `Never say never`

from your posting :


``A small number of refugees were permitted to return from Jordan in September 1967 under a process facilitated by the Red Cross``



From your previous posting:


`Let me repeat. Israel has NEVER allowed the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes.``




The lesson: never emphatically state absolutes.

[halla]

37. UNHCR vs UNWRA

you are in error. israel has permitted some to return to israel. certainly that number exceeds the number of jews living in arabland returning to their homes of 5000 years. but they didn't have an UNWRA supporting them with special inheritable refugee definition that applied only to them.

interesting how one definition can lead to an exponential growth of a defined population while another definition can lead to an asymptotic tending to zero. all refugees are equal, some refugees are more equal.

[halla]

38. palestinian state and the "right of return"

plus a permanent place at the great UN's begging bowl. ya gotta love it.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. 'plus a permanent place at the great UN's begging bowl'

You have a problem with UNRWA? You would rather have had the refugees starve to death? Lovely...

Violet...

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[halla]

48. plus, plus, plus

plus a special great UN organ just for them: UNWRA

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. How many refugees do you think there were???

A small number of refugees is NOT by any stretch Israel allowing the refugees to return to their homes.

Violet...

[halla]

64. small numbers and 194

i thing 500 to 800 thousand, just a bit less than the 800-900 thousand displaced jews that had lived in arab lands for 5000 years.


Jewish Community Relations Council (jcrc.org)About two-thirds of the over 900000 Jews displaced from Arab countries ... efforts to secure rights and redress for Jews displaced from Arab lands. ...
www.jcrc.org/issues/jewish_ refugees_arab_countries_2003.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Z-Magazine - Background to the Israel-Palestine CrisisOf the 860000 Arabs who had lived in areas of Palestine that became Israel, only 133000 remained. Some 470000 moved into refugee camps on the West Bank ...
www.zmag.org/shalom-meqa.htm - 65k - Cached - Similar pages

**********************************************************************************
and the jews do not have heritable refugee status!

interesting point is that the jews in arab lands did not join in a war to destroy their host country, but the palestinians did.

do you know that the largest plurality of jews in israel are either from or are the progeny of those displaced jews from arab countries!!?? i think it is about 43 to 46 per cent.

[halla]

49. superman emblem

are you sure you know and know that you know, therefore a savant or perhaps you know not and know not that you know not, therefore a fool.

i believe in the myth of certainty myself. i do believe some 'refugees' returned to israel through the vehicle of marriage, until the recent intifada. to their original homes i know not. perhaps the author of the (t)issue has a key to what is now a parking lot. i know when i go to my childhood neighborhood, it utility is a parking lot. progress.

anyway 194 precludes a Hatfield-McCoy scenario, especially when one of them and their clans started it. thems the breaks for loosers. i mean with a residency defined by two years and a job loss, they have been doing pretty well at the great UN trough. special this, special that. all refugees are equal, some refugees are more equal. in animal farm the pigs were mostest special, at the great UN, the palestinians are mostest special. with 56 islamic countries in the galleries and 75% of the world's oil, why not. perhaps the palestinians need to sake down the shabby chics for more than suicide bomber stipends.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[halla]

46. many more and many more to come

U: "(btw, I hope yr aware that there's many more than 100,000 refugees."

of course there are. the reason being that the UNWRA definition of refugee leads to exponential growth and the UNCHR definition leads to zero via the asymptote. two definitions for one class, the refugee. all refugees are equal, some refugees are more equal.

[pelsar]

55. israel took back refugess in 1948...

even better than books is the palestenian post from that period:

1949 Dec 19 Palestenian Post:

Families to Return from Jordan....
The first group of 55 arabs from Jordan to be reunited with their families in northern israel will cross.....


111 Arabs Cross from Lebanon
Haifa, Sunday
a second group of Arab women and children refugees in Lebanon are to be returned to their families in Acre and Nazareth....

and there were more as well......

http://jic.tau.ac.il/Default/Skins/PalestineP/Client.asp?Skin=PalestineP&GZ=T&AppName=2

[halla]

47. refugee returns

given that the palestinians have signed on to 194, it could be argued that the Palestinians have negated the return of the Palestinian refugees because of the Palestinian active engagement in violence.

the relevant clause is:

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

there has never been a time when the 'Palestinians'/Arab brothers relinquished violence. not from before Israel was established until the present day, precluding their living at peace with their neighbors. thus forcing the compensation issue which reads:

"compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;"

since it was the 'Palestinians'/Arab brothers who initiated violence in their attempt to kill off the nascent state of Israel, they are the ones who need to do the compensation and not Israel.

[halla]

53. apartheid??

first, Israel has not rejected a two state solution and the Palestinian Arabs in Israel have all the rights of citizenship.

this: "A one-state solution with citizenship and equality for everyone is indeed the best solution" doesn't pass the reality test. Israel has natural right of existence in not accepting a hostile population, a hostile population that has been generational in it virulent efforts to destroy Israel. the latest manifestation of this hatred can be found in the hamas covenant:"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

remember that the Arab-lands have become essentially judenrein while Israel's Arab population has grown over 10 fold.

the "White Silence" concerning Arab success at apartheid concerning the Jews who had lived in Arab lands for 5000 years and the "White Noise" concerning 'Palestinian Arab" whose ancestral citizenship is defined by a special definition created only for them: two year residency and/or loss of income, demonstrates a crass duplicity.

[Burning Water]

51. He's right about this,

The Palestinian leadership, whether Hamas of Fatah, still strives to destroy Israel. Only when Palestinians give up the dream of reclaiming their pre-1948 communities inside Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state will peace be possible. Until then, Israel must show strength, fight terrorism with all its might and not reward terrorists or expose the country's volatile eastern border to attacks by withdrawing.

Hopefully, he's wrong in his time estimate.

It will take at least a generation — probably more than one — for the Palestinian society to ripen for peace negotiations. Until then, Israelis have to simply toughen up and continue fighting.



Peace is something only the Palestinian people can choose. All they have to do is reach out and take it.