Lawmaker who helped grab Eichmann tells Knesset: Anti-Semitism is alive

[Behind the Aegis]

(and kicking)

Only some 40 MKs attended the Knesset's special debate yesterday on global anti-Semitism, as part of the Holocaust Day's events.

Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and most ministers were absent from the plenum debate, except for Roni Bar-On, Ze'ev Boim and Shaul Mofaz. So were Labor leader MK Amir Peretz and Likud chair MK Benjamin Netanyahu.

The Pensioners Party chairman MK Rafael Eitan, who commanded the field unit in the operation to capture Adolf Eichmann, gave an emotional maiden address. He said that with Eichmann's head on his knee after the capture, he felt, as an Israeli and in the name of the nation down the generations, that he had vanquished anti-Semitism in its ugliest, most heinous manifestation.

"I was in the courtroom during Eichmann's trial and when the prosecutor pointed at the defendant and said he was speaking for 6 million prosecutors, I felt the trembling in the room and thought we had defeated anti-Semitism, but regrettably that monstrous anti-Semitism that our parents and their parents, many generations of Jews, experienced, is still alive and breathing."


more...

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[anitar1]

4. Did you not know that one should never speak about

Israel's policies, or else you are an anti semite? You are not allowed to disagree with their government's decisions. I guess I have a right to , as part of my tax dollars go to Israel each and every year. Seems I recall it is in the neighborhood of 81 Billion a year.Amazing what 81 Billion could do for the schools in this country. Not to mention all the arms we have given to them. And I am sure we will continue to fund their country, as long as there is a powerful Jewish lobby. It is all about politics, and has been for a long time. Odd that we never hear about the man on the street in Israel, or what they might want. Guess the government is similar to BushWorld. Maybe that is why they are such cozy friends. The old saw,"You are either with us or against us ".Translate that to "Shut up,already".

[fujiyama]

5. 81 billion?

Me thinks you exagerrate a bit.

Last I heard it was 3-4b, which I agree is too much. There is no need to give Israel that much money.

But I'm also irritated we give Pakistan nearly the same amount and they're not a functioning democracy and also proliferate nuclear technology. I also don't like that we give money to the repressive regime in Egypt...and Saudi Arabia...

[anitar1]

11. I do not exagerate. Look it up.I have read 4 articles quoting that

amount , in the last 4 months. 3to 4 billion is chicken feed. There are more powerful forces than we know. Sort of sickens one.

[lvx35]

18. 81 billion is a grand total, its 3-4 billion a year

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

That figure is our aid to them from 1949.

[blitzen]

6. check out Juan Cole's petition on "Anti-Semitism"

he pretty much says what you posted...

www.juancole.com


P.S., I signed it (hint:LSU)

[anitar1]

10. Thanks so much. I am happy to see and take part in this.

I saw you.

[barb162]

42. If someone criticizes Palestinian policy

is that person automatically anti-Palestinian? Also do you have a link to that 81 billion figure?

[Andromeda]

56. Those dasterdly Jews are trying ....

to take over the world, don'cha know? Everybody knows that they control the media and the U.S. is just a puppet of Israels. :sarcasm:

But we know you're just mad at Israel's "policies."

[ShalachEtAmi]

23. Such a tired argument...

`Anti Semitic` refers to `Anti Jewish` in all senses of its usage...not Anti Arab,not Anti Muslim,not Islamaphobia,not Assyrian,Not anti Persian,not Anti Kurd....


Anti Jewish...and theres no redefining it ..no matter how some people try and try again ..it means what it means...

[King Mongo]

30. Anti-Jewish means anti-Jewish and anti-Arab means anti-Arab...

...so it's only logical for anti-Semitism to mean the hatred of Semites including Jews and Arabs. I mean, the last thing that we would want would be to treat Arabs or Jews better than the other, since that would be an anti- behavior.

[ShalachEtAmi]

33. Nope Anti Semitic means Anti Jewish

Perhaps any dictionary may help..pick any one at random and look it up...No matter how many times you say it ain't so..try say it 100 x..then look it up in the dictionary...and the meaning is still Anti Jewish...

I tried that experiment myself..and the meaning of the term Anti-Semite never changed...

Logical or not..it still means Anti Jewish.

To me its not logical that an `Apple` is a computer...but I tried calling it a `Pear` and it never changed its meaning or name...

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

34. fine. now when you use the term

anti-semitic I'll know that you mean someone who harbors an antipathy toward jews or arabs or jews and arabs. that's clear as...mud. Meanwhile, you, and a small contingent of like minded folks, continue your campaign to change the meaning of a word that's meant one thing for 150 years. The rest of the world will simply keep using the word as it was originated.

[King Mongo]

45. Everyone has the right to believe as they wish...

... and I'll continue to believe that Semites are Arabs and Jews, even if others prefer to treat one better than the other.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Everyone can believe as they wish...

However, it doesn't make it correct or factual! For instance, many people think homosexuality and pedophilia are similar, if not interchangeable. Their thoughts, while their own, are still incorrect and not factual!

You are right that Arabs and some Jews are Semites. That piece of fact doesn't negate that anti-Semitism only refers to anti-Jewish sentiment because when the word was created it was done so to specifically target Jews...no one else.

Finally, adding that final disclaimer is just shameful! The implication that anyone who uses the word anti-Semitism correctly somehow must prefer to treat Jews better than others is false and ignorant.

[King Mongo]

50. It is also not correct to accuse those who don't hate Jews of being

anti-Semites. But, people do it anyway and I argue that anti-Semitism is the prefix anti attached to the word Semites.


>>The implication that anyone who uses the word anti-Semitism

It is very common for those who hate Arabs to argue that "anti-Semitism" does not mean the hatred of Arabs. This observation was the motive of my argument that the term anti-Semitism needs to mean what it actually means, which is the hatred of Jews and Arabs.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. ...

It is also not correct to accuse those who don't hate Jews of being anti-Semites. But, people do it anyway and I argue that anti-Semitism is the prefix anti attached to the word Semites.

No. It is not correct to call someone an anti-Semite when s/he is not one, anymore than it is correct to call someone an Arab hater when s/he is not one.. Again, argue all you'd like, it still doesn't change the fact that the word "anti-Semitism" only deals with discrimination/prejudice against Jews.

>>The implication that anyone who uses the word anti-Semitism

It is very common for those who hate Arabs to argue that "anti-Semitism" does not mean the hatred of Arabs. This observation was the motive of my argument that the term anti-Semitism needs to mean what it actually means, which is the hatred of Jews and Arabs.

You still are wrong. Because an "Arab hater" who argues that anti-Semitism doesn't apply to Arabs is 100% correct. An equivalent for anti-Semitism is Islamaphobia. However, that term only applies to Muslims. There is no 'fancy' word for hating Arabs, just the simplistic anti-Arab bigotry.

[King Mongo]

59. The more that people argue that anti-Semitism means

...the hated of Jews and Arabs, the more likely the term is going to change. Certainly, you want to believe that the word will never change, but you do recognize that it changed 150 years ago and it can change again. Often when I use the term "anti-Semitism", I make it clear that I am referring to Jews and/or Arabs to help others to understand my usage of the term.

>There is no 'fancy' word for hating Arabs

This is why anti-Semitism is an excellent word to describe the hatred of Jews and/or Arabs.

[ShalachEtAmi]

65. I don`t agree the city of Atlanta should be called anything but Hotlanta,,

You may not agree with me but I do not think it should be called Atlanta, a lot of people call it Hotlanta and I think its just plain ignorant to call it Atlanta..

...thats why I call it Hotlanta , and if enough people start calling it Hotlanta and not Atlanta the name of the city will change..lots of city names change,...

So from now on whenever I refer to that city in Georgia I will call it Hotlanta and I expect every one else will follow suite and the name will be changed..

...you may not agree with me thats your perogative....


:think:

[King Mongo]

68. You have your opinions and I have mine.

You may argue your case and I'll argue mine. Personally, I think that my argument has better chances of being accepted since many people who use the term, "anti-Semites", hate Arabs while others accuse those who don't hate Jews of being "anti-Semite", meaning that an anti-Semite is really one who hates Jews or Arabs.

[ShalachEtAmi]

69. Sorry that makes no sense to me...

Maybe to others(I doubt it),but not to me..

[King Mongo]

72. What does not make sense to you?

The fact that we both have a right to our opinion?
The fact that some who do not hate Jews are accused of being anti-Semites?
The fact that some who hate Arabs use the term "anti-Semites"?

The best way to discourage people from hating Jews and Arabs is to criticize anti-Semitism since it is wrong to hate all Semites including Arabs.

[ShalachEtAmi]

76. Well continue on your mission to change the meaning of the word...

I think I saw the exact same discussion on another forum and only one poster there with the exact same ideas about the word `anti semite` posted there, and that guy got very little support in his mission...in fact nobody (just like on this thread) agreed to carry the torch with him on his `crusade`..

...so good luck..I guess as they would say in Star trek `resistance is futile` ...so I will just observe the success of your plight to change this term over the next few decades with anticipation....



:silly:

[King Mongo]

78. Thanks :)

Great ideas are often criticized in the beginning. But, slowly, more and more people are realizing why it is best to treat the racism on both sides with equal criticism.

[cali]

83. Great Ideas

Ending famine is a great idea.
Stopping conflict is a great idea.
curing disease is a great idea.

Changing the definition of a word, even if you're motives are purer than the driven snow, and not merely political? Nope, that's not a particularly great or noble idea. Even should such a campaign succeed, it will not change anything for the better.

My main objection to changing the word is that it fails to take into account the burden of history that the word labors beneath. Anti-semitsm- the word and the sentiment- is closely aligned with over 150 years of history, and particularly with the holocaust. For approximately 80 years, between the coining of the word, and the attempted extermination of the Jews under Hitler, many hate filled tracts were penned, particularly in Germany, about Jews and why anti-semitsm was a legitimate position.

You shouldn't attempt to change history, even if your intentions are good, even if you're attempting to reach greater equity, even if the word anti-semitsm is rooted in a misnomer. And yes, changing the word blurs history.

[ShalachEtAmi]

71. So when Ahmednejad says the most anti semitic things...

..and when Arab terrorist groups say they will target Jews in the Diaspora, or when the Hamas charter says the most anti semitic pronouncements...these Arabs and Persians really hate Arabs?

[King Mongo]

74. Do racist Arabs say that they are hate Semites or Jews?

My guess is that they don't claim that they hate Semites, if they know that they are Semites. Is it not generally the non-Arabs who accuse Arabs of being self-haters, just like how some Jews are accused of being self-haters?

[sabbat hunter]

80. and i will call

chicago chi-town and anyone who doesnt call it the same and agree with me is wrong and doesnt think.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. And therein lies a problem...

"This is why anti-Semitism is an excellent word to describe the hatred of Jews and/or Arabs." Actually, this creates the further problem of are "Jews" a religion or are they an ethnic group. If you say that anti-Semitism is for Arabs and Jews, then it would not include those Jews who convert, nor the Sephardi. However, if you said "Jews and Muslims," then the word collapses on the very point you are trying to make because not all Muslims are Semitic.

I don't think you will find many that will take up your charge to take the word. Also, i feel this constant nonsense about "Arabs are Semitic too" so the word really applies to them as well, is denigrating and disingenuous. That argument is false and non-productive, as well as dismissive. So, anti-Semitism is not "an an excellent word to describe the hatred of Jews and/or Arabs," it is nothing more than a red herring used to distract and detract from real issues and concerns.

[King Mongo]

70. The dictionary say that Arabs are Semites...

>>i feel this constant nonsense about "Arabs are Semitic too"

This means that you want to believe that Arabs are not Semites even though many dictionaries claim that they are, but you prefer to believe that anti-Semitism is not the hatred of Arabs, using dictionaries to argue your case. This means that you accept dictionary definitions when they reflect your views, but reject them when they contradict your views.

Granted, I'm doing the same, only that I'm arguing for both to be treated equally instead of favoring one over the other.

>>this creates the further problem of are "Jews" a religion or are they an ethnic group

It is my understanding that Jews and Arabs are a mixture of races and religions. One may be defined as being an Arab even though one is a Christian with a mother with European ancestory and one may be a Jew even though one has Ethopian ancestory or even though one is not religious. Really, all of these labels are quite stupid and that's why it is best to just lump those who fight against each other into the same group, meaning that since there is a major conflict between Israel and Arab States, it is best to define both as being Semites so that they are treated the same and discouraged from hating each other.

[Behind the Aegis]

77. Out of context!

You "quoted" me completely out of context! That statement said;"Also, I feel this constant nonsense about "Arabs are Semitic too" so the word really applies to them as well, is denigrating and disingenuous." Therefore, your conclusion that I "want to believe that Arabs are not Semites.." is wholly incorrect because of a false premise and false conclusion based on said premise. Your false premise also led to the faulty and erroneous conclusion that I "...accept dictionary definitions when they reflect (my) views, but reject them when they contradict (my) views." It seems the only one doing that, buy your own admission, is you!

"It is my understanding that Jews and Arabs are a mixture of races and religions." This is an incorrect assumption, and one of the reasons I said, "...this creates the further problem of are "Jews" a religion or are they an ethnic group..." Jews may be a mixture of races, but not of religions. Arabs may be a mixture of religions, but are, generally, considered an ethnic group. However, there are some that claim Jews are also an ethnic group. Therefore, the term anti-Semitism refers to hatred against JEWS. The term makes no distinction whether the Jew be ethnic or religious, simply a self-identified Jew. However, if the definition were to change to a strictly "ethnic" meaning as you seem to think, then my friend who converted would never be a victim of anti-Semitism because he is a white guy of Western European descent. You seem to be mixing up and using the terms Jew and Arab interchangeably.

"Really, all of these labels are quite stupid and that's why it is best to just lump those who fight against each other into the same group, meaning that since there is a major conflict between Israel and Arab States, it is best to define both as being Semites so that they are treated the same and discouraged from hating each other." This assertion is naive, at best. It would be no different to assert, "...that's why it is best to just lump those who fight against each other into the same group, meaning that since there is a major conflict (the US Civil War) (the conflict in Northern Ireland) between (the North) (Protestants) and (the South) (Catholics), it is best to define both as being (Americans) (Christians) so that they are treated the same and discouraged from hating each other." Unfortunately, that is not the way the world works.

On edit: Made a few grammatical changes and also realized why you latched onto my quote, "Also, I feel this constant nonsense about "Arabs are Semitic too" so the word really applies to them as well, is denigrating and disingenuous." Through poor proof reading, I misplaced the end quote mark. The way it is written, it could be seen the way you chose to see it. It should have read, "Also, I feel this constant nonsense about "Arabs are Semitic too so the word really applies to them as well," is denigrating and disingenuous." Apologies for the misplaced quote mark.

[pelsar]

79. now i get it....

the attempt to redefine anti semetism is an attempt to redefine identities.....if jews cant be defined simply by their being jewish it then changes not just the identity of the conflict but changes the identity of those involved. Semites cant "hate each other" since they are "the same'

what an incredibly "anti human, naive, simplistic, self serving egotistical view point.....having someone else tell a "people" what their identity is" and explain that if they change their identity, they there wont be a conflict.

[sabbat hunter]

81. dictionary meanings

snip <The dictionary say that Arabs are Semites...>

well the dictionary also says that anti-semitism is hatred of jews.

so what is it now, you use the dictionary when it fits your agenda but when it doesnt you ignore it?

[cali]

54. LOL!

you do like to gnaw on this bone, and spout on about it. There's virtually no one in the world of academia who would agree with you, no matter what their politics. You state, "the term anti-Semitism needs to mean what it actually means, which is the hatred of Jews and Arabs." Go look up the history of the term.

In addition, yes people charge anti-semitism where none exists, but that happens with all kinds of biases. People charge racism or sexism where none exists. The dialectic of prejudice is a particularly heated one.

[King Mongo]

60. I know that you don't want to agree with me....

... and that others don't agree with me. Most didn't believe Columbus either when he argued that the world is round and the list goes on. As long as folks hate Jews and/or Arabs, it makes total sense for the prefix "anti" to be attached to the word "Semites" to describe the hatred of Jews and/or Arabs, not matter how much anyone wants to disagree with me.

[sabbat hunter]

82. what about jews

that arent semite? you can be black and be jewish, asian, indian, etc etc

none of those are semites. but they are all jewish. so now under your definition if someone hated them because they were jewish that person couldnt be antisemetic because asians arent semetic, blacks arent semetic, indians arent semetic, etc etc

[blitzen]

73. dictionary definition of "semitic"

"relating to the race of people that includes Arabs and Jews, or to their languages:
Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages." Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary

You're flat wrong, and it is you who are "changing the meaning of a word."

[sabbat hunter]

37. mongo

go open a dictionary and check out what anti semitism means. stop trying to play semantics. antisemitism means anti jewish. accept it will you ?

[King Mongo]

47. Since the term is used to critize those who don't hate Jews or Arabs...

...to me the term means the hatred of Semites including Jews and Arabs since I prefer to treat both the same as I treat myself without having a greater preference for the other.

[sabbat hunter]

53. the term by all definitions

means hatred of jews. antisemetic=antijewish. where other than in your mind have you ever seen it used for any other use?

[King Mongo]

61. Definitions are attempts to match our usage of terms....

...If people change the meaning of a term, then the term will mean something else and definitions will be updated. Since anti means against, since Semites means Jews or Arabs, since many people are bigoted in favor of Jews or Arabs, since many who favor Jews over Arabs prefer for Arabs to be excluded from the term "anti-Semites" and since many who are bigoted against Arabs use the term "anti-Semite" to describe those who do not hate Jews, it makes total sense to use the term to mean what it actually means, regardless of what popular definitions currently claim. The longer that Jews and Arabs fight over the holy land, the sooner that anti-Semitism will mean the hatred of Jews and/or Arabs.

[sabbat hunter]

28. anti semitic

almost everyone knows that arabs are semetic too, but anti semetic means anti jewish.

[King Mongo]

62. and thus the term is often used to describe those who don't hate Jews.

.

[ShalachEtAmi]

86. Besides from you ..I never saw the term used in that way (`often`) . NT

[blitzen]

75. right...Arabs and Jews are of the same "race" (whatever that means)

of course "race" is a dubious category...

So when Arabs hate Jews, it is not a matter of "racism" but of something else...I suggested "politics," which is what set off this whole ugly episode....Ugly for me at least, because I had hoped to contribute occasionally to this forum--but I see that would be impossible.

[cali]

84. As I suggested in a previous post,

if your sensibilites are too delicate to withstand the robust, and yes, sometimes acrimonious debate on I/P, fine, don't participate, but dropping in to whine about how impossible it is to contribute, is pointless. Oh, and as far as I can see, no one has called you an anti-semite. People have simply taken issue with what you say, and have expressed their disagreement. To cloak it in a cliche: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[Selatius]

2. I never thought of it as being anti-semitic as being anti-Jewish

This isn't an issue of race as Jews aren't a race but a religious group. This is an issue of religious intolerance. In the greatest sense, this is an issue of bigotry in general, which includes religious intolerance and racism.

[blitzen]

3. bin Laden is "anti-Jewish"...Hamas is "anti-Israel." Neither are...

"anti-Semitic"

[anitar1]

8. Thank You. See what I mean? Dare to speak and you are

against the religion. This will never end. If only they had the smarts to really look at the past and see where this all started. But that will never happen.Grab more land and push people out by any method one chooses. A slow genocide.Such hatred has been created because of greed . Greed that prompts others to steal land and punish one's neighbors. Is it any wonder that terriosts have been created? But all of the Palestinians are not terriosts. Although by this time, I do not think anything can be reversed. So I fully expect that Israel will destroy the West Bank eventually. Then they can expand.It is a waiting game. The Palestinians are toast.

[blitzen]

9. Yeah, I should have known not to enter into this famously testy forum....

I was going to try to rebut the "stupid argument" post but it would probably be a waste of time. Instead I will just recommend that the poster read Ilan Pappe's "A History of Modern Palestine."

[Phx_Dem]

24. you don't know one way or the other

how would you or anyone for that matter know whether bin laden or hamas leaders are anti-semitic? You talk to Bin-Laden often?

[sabbat hunter]

29. bin ladin

is antisemetic. tell me how he isnt. and please dont spout off on how arabs are semetic too. the common usage for antisemetic is to be anti-jewish.

[fujiyama]

7. This is such a stupid argument

I see being played out all the time and often I see it by those with an odd axe to grind.

In popular usage, anti Semitism IS Anti Judaism...That's how most peoplee know it.

The usage of vocabulary is not always technically correct, but that's how it is. It does not help to confuse the subject over arguing over semantics.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. They trot out this stupid argument because they usually have little...

...else to contribute. They know what the word means, even if semantically incorrect. They seem to think because they think it should mean one thing, that everyone should use their definition, as opposed to the accepted definition. It is what is known as a "red herring," and is often, nothing more than a strawman of poor construction.

[blitzen]

13. okay, you've chased me out of the forum and i'll never dare tread here

again...

you and your buddies who think that "Judaism" = "Current Israeli policy" can have the forum all to yourselves

[anitar1]

14. The OP succeeded in baiting. I have seen this many times, n/t

[barb162]

40. I think the OP is not baiting n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

15. .

:hi:

[cali]

20. What a delicate creature

you are, to be so easily sent into a fit of the vapors. For pity's sake, this is a discussion forum. People are going to disagree with, and challenge you. For every unwarrented charge of anti-semitism, there's an equally bogus charge of 'I can't discuss this because I'll be charged with anti-semitism'. If it's unwarrented, argue as to why it's unwarrented. That is the point of the forum, you know. And in case you hadn't noticed, there are at least as many people on this thread who share your POV as there are those who take the countering position. That's true throughout the I/P forum. It's hardly the bastion of those who think "Judaism = "Current Israeli policy", that you seem to believe it is.

[Andromeda]

55. Say "hi" to Santa for me!

:)

[Chi-Town Exile]

16. Don't forget that we (Jews that is) eat Christian Babies!

Although now the guise is to say we eat Palestinian babies.

Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[cpousnret]

17. i`m not an anti-semite

but i don`t understand how you take land from one group of people and give it to another.certainly using the bible is assinine,its x rated and written by people not god,god doesn`t talk to people,they are beneath his dignity,besides the bible is heresay in a court of law.peace

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Do you know about the history of the region?

Do you know how Israel was created?

[cpousnret]

21. i think the british ceeded palestine

to the u.n.who in turn gave land to the israelis,who claim that in the bible god gave them this land.the bible is not the word of god,but the word of humans,who lie,while i`m on the point i would remind everyone that all that live in the middleeast are semites,arab and jew,the war they are fighting deals with abraham who is worshipped by both jew and arab,i prefer that he be branded a sleazebag since he had an affair with his wifes servant supposedly under her approval, i doubt that.god said to abraham kill me a son,abraham said to god you must be putting me on,god told abraham you when you see me coming you better run abrahemsaid,ok where do you want this killing done,god said over on hiway 61.give me a break on these phony wars out of the bible,humans start war,not god.actually humans do most all the wrongs, not god,oh and by the way there is only god nothing else,prophets do not,didnot exist,its all horse manure.otherwise,peace

[cali]

22. Oh dear,

there's nothing like ignorance. Most Israelis do not stake their claim to a nation on the bible. Many Israelis are, as a matter of fact, not religious. I mean, honestly, how hard is this to google.

Amusing rant about Abraham thought. Great strawman, but laughably flimsy.

[cpousnret]

26. i thought that my point was

humans start wars,i don`t believe the god nor bible concept.

[pelsar]

27. you wrote....

i would remind everyone that all that live in the middleeast are semites,arab and jew,the war they are fighting deals with abraham

__________

and the first has no relevance and nor does the second...and if you believe so, it would indicate something close to absolute zero in terms of knowledge of the conflict.

[King Mongo]

32. Many argue that the most of the struggles in the region...

...are related to religion. I read this excellent opinion the other day which pointed out that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was the first great change in the direction of secularism, turning the Israeli government away from the problems caused by religion in politics.

[pelsar]

35. that would indicate limited knowldege...

whereas religion is component it is hardly the only one...more so to declare gazas withdrawl as the first 'great change" would be to ignore the whole original zionist movement was is secular in nature....

[King Mongo]

44. If the Zionist movement had distanced itself from biblical Israel...

...then it would probably make sense to argue that it is a secular movement. Yet, it seems as if many Zionist attempt to link Zionism with biblical Israel, causing it to be quite a religious movement with its related religious problems. Certainly, most can agree today that Zionists could have created a State in a much friendlier location without so many religious problems.

[pelsar]

85. your confusing issues again...

you really have to get off your "ethnocentric high horse" and let those of certain identites define themselves.

zionism in its cores is a secular movement based on jewish history and culture..as we define it. That includes the ancient homeland of israel....which was the natural place to return to after 2,000 years of being killed and terrorized for our identity....returning home if you will. (and even if you dont understand or attempt to redefine our identity...its not something that is new to us)

[cpousnret]

38. i apologize to you

what i posted was on another site.the question was why do jews and arabs hate each other and the reasons for war.i thought that ans. was true.i will research before posting again on this subject.please forgive me.peace

[pelsar]

39. we dont hate each other....

though we've been at war, you will find arabs living and working within israel and working with jews..and jews working with arabs of all diferent nationalties...

however if you do want to research who hates who...

http://www.sandmonkey.org/index.php?s=protocols+of+zion&submit=Search

(and thats just one example....use his search engine, you'll find a lot more)

[cpousnret]

41. thank you

appreciate your response.peace

[cpousnret]

43. an interesting note

while working on my masters in psy.there was an iranian and an iraqi sitting on opposite sides of me,i moved a lot to get away,to no avail,but they argued for the whole semester and i had to break up a couple of fights.i never could figure out what they were angry about,but i liked them both except for their disruptions.

[pelsar]

52. i had a 'crush on this muslim girl

during grad school....never occured to me "not to"...though her parents wouldnt have had a couple heart attacks. Inter arab conflict is far more intense than the arab/israeli one.

A list of arab killing arabs due to nationalism, and sub cultures produces a far greater, more violent list (gassing, massacres) than anything out of the israeli/palestenain conflict

[Coastie for Truth]

25. I think you are 100% wrong

Start with F. William Engdahl's "A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" and Google or Wiki "Sykes-Picot Agreement" - some British duplicity in carving up the post-WW 1 remains of the Ottoman Empire. The classical explanation was to reward friends, establish a region of tribal warfare, warring mini-states, and make the world safe the the Empire's East African and South Asian colonies.

You might also Google or Wiki the "MacDonald White Paper" also known as the "1939 White Paper."

[King Mongo]

31. Your 100% confidence in your views...

..does not mean that you are 100% correct. It is only fair to consider that other views are very likely to be correct, given the facts backing them up, even if one doesn't like them or refuses to recongize that they could be true.

[Andromeda]

57. Coastie always backs up what he says with facts.

You might try doing the same.

[King Mongo]

64. There are no facts which prove that

... the bible is or is not the word of God, but there are many facts which prove that humans edited the bible. This one example where Coastie was wrong for claiming that cpousnret is 100% wrong. The claim is a bit extreme if you ask me, especially if you examing the fact that there is a major struggle in the mideast between Jews and Arabs which has much to do with religion.

It is important to recognize that the extremists have their own collection of facts which they believe, the folks on the right have their facts, the moderate folks have their facts and the lefty folks have their facts. I can prove things with my own collection of facts and others will prove their views with their own collection of facts. There are many different views as to why the British handed the Mandate over to the League of Nations and why the League of Nations split the land against the interests of the majority of the people who live there.

It is simply wrong to claim that cpousnret is 100% wrong, meaning that Coastie's views on the matter are indeed questionable.

[Spinoza]

36. Say what?

[cpousnret]

46. please advise

thank you.

[Behind the Aegis]

67. Try the provided link

I have found many interesting things from this site....it is a start:

What are the solutions to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict?
This site presents in a simple, nonpartisan pro-con format, responses to the core question "What are the solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?" We have divided questions about the topic into the issues and sub-issues listed below. All individuals and organizations quoted on our site are ranked based upon our unique credibility scale.


http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/

[Andromeda]

58. Anti-Semitism

is alive and well and appears to be gaining, unfortunately.

[dajudem]

63. how right you are Andromeda

Here we have basically an article about the discussion commemorating Holocaust Day and I think I heard not one voice on this thread talk of anything but how rude the Jews are to mention such a subject as "anti-semitism". One would almost thing it was as bad to be called an anti-semite as to be burned to death in an oven or gassed, or something... God forbid you should be called anti-semitic. Now go and look at some pictures and see what pain is really like: (not you, Andromeda, but these 'chattering classes.')

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/
http://www.usd230.k12.ks.us/PICTT/eisenhower/Holocaust/1.html


jee... doesn't it just make us Jews feel really welcome in the Democratic party or what!? lol.
And not just Jews either:

Here: http://www.members.aol.com/mrhatlrms/holocaust.html#NON
you can read about the other victims of the Holocaust:

The Five Million Poles
Forgotten Victims: The Abandonment of Americans in Hitler's Camps
"Forgotten Victims: On the Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses
The Holocaust of the GYPSIES
Five million were Polish Catholic citizens
Homosexuals

One can read what the Nazis did to these people as well. The Jews' place is special only because the Nazis tried to wipe out a whole race, and came very near doing so. The people here rather chatter and complain about the meaning of 'anti-semitism', and blame the Jews because it makes them feel bad. I wish they would try to get their priorities straight. <<<shake head>>>