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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-28-06 09:10 PM
Original message
And thank you to Hamas
By Aluf Benn

You have to peel away many layers of rhetoric and propaganda to see that Hamas' control of the Palestinian Authority serves the interests of other regional players. With Ismail Haniyeh in power, Israel can continue its unilateral policy in the territories. The rulers of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, who groaned under American pressure for democratization, can relax: The "Bush doctrine" for changing Arab regimes disintegrated with Hamas' election victory. Even Syrian President Bashar Assad, who was almost kicked out of his seat, was saved at the last moment. His secular and despotic regime, with all its shortcomings, suddenly looks preferable to Islamic democracy in Damascus.

Interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert needs Hamas more than any other player. From his point of view, a Hamas government that is weakened, lacks international backing and is hungry for assistance is the best alternative on the Palestinian side. Olmert has a strategy: evacuation of most of the West Bank settlements to save Israel from a demographic disaster to be better prepared, both militarily and politically, for the next conflict with the Palestinians. But he has no time. Before the elections, Olmert spoke about the rest of U.S. President George W. Bush's term, until January 2009, as a "window of opportunity" for carrying out the convergence plan. Bush's term now seems an eternity compared to that of the Olmert government, which is unlikely to survive until then.

Olmert must act quickly and decisively. The right was beaten in the elections, the settlers are still isolated, the level of terror is low. But this situation will not last forever. Therefore, Olmert must not waste time on mock negotiations. If he is required to invest months on useless discussions with PA chair Mahmoud Abbas or another Palestinian straw man, the momentum will be lost, and Israel will be stuck with remote settlements such as Itamar and Yizhar as well as outposts on the hills for an additional period.


Israeli fans of "partner" Abbas propose conducting negotiations with him over a final-status agreement to be completed within a month and brought for a Palestinian referendum. According to this scenario, Hamas will find it difficult to swallow the agreement, and will fall from power. That sounds as good as a science fiction plot. In reality, there is no value to an agreement with Abbas, who is incapable of implementing it in any case. Worse, discussions with him are risky: If the negotiations blow up - for example, due to a dispute over refugees or Jerusalem - Israel will find it difficult to withdraw from the settlements. After all, it is inconceivable that after having failed at the discussion table, territories will be handed over free of charge to the Palestinians. And in that way, the conflict will be perpetuated at its current borders, and the settlements once again will be resuscitated, as they were after the Camp David fiasco.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/709946.html
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-28-06 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's really hard to make everyone happy over there isn't it?
Every one at haaretz will never be satisfied, they cannot be fulfilled, no matter what they may be given, it will be insufficient.
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dajudem Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-28-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. who gives a rat's behind about Haaretz?
It is a pro-Pal rag anyway...
Benn is definitely right about wasting time with negotiations. There hasn't been an honest broker on that side of the line since Sadat was assassinated. The Jewish state has done what it does best -- talk talk and more talk. Where has it gotten them? It has got them behind a wall or a fence, withdrawn from virtually all borders and Kassams for a 'thank you.'

I should think the Jews would have stopped talking years ago, had they recognized that they were talking to a wall. The Jews don't seem to be as smart as the world seems to give them credit for. Why just 60 years ago, they were trapped inside Hitler's Europe...and mass murdered, while the world made clucking, too-bad noises. Israel needs to look out for itself, as always.

It is too late for 'negotiations'... what with Iran threatening to wipe Israel off the map -- with Israel just 9 miles wide in places, I wonder what a nuke would do to those precious Palestinians? What would an Iranian nuke do to its neighbors, and what would an Israeli nuke do to Iran? Would Pakistan join the frey and lob one over as well, I wonder; and would Israel not retaliate like she didn't in Gulf War II when Saddam took potshots at her? Somehow I suspect not. The Arabs have never won a war against Israel. I would hope they would not try to start one now, though I am not optimistic. Frankly I think we are already in the World War, it just hasn't been named yet. Someday it may be that looking back, this war is just a flareup of the last world war, and the peace was just a simmering. I can see it easily. It is not a coincidence that Nazi war criminals have been living in the Middle East since the late forties and have had some influence. And it is not altogether without significance that the Arabs were sympathic to the Nazis and their aspirations, and their leaders actively participated with Hitler.


Ah there are so many questions. But I certainly wouldn't look for my answers at Haaretz. Much better at http://www.israelnationalnews.com/ or http://www.jpost.com/. Haaretz is more like reading the National Enquirer for getting your news, lol.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-28-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Um, DU is a site for leftwingers...
Why would you be claiming that a racist piece of crap like Arutz Sheva is a good source?

Violet...
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dajudem Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. why would you be claiming ...
that Arutz Sheva is a "racist piece of crap?"
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. The reason Arutz Sheva IS a racist piece of crap...
Arutz Sheva is a right-wing and disgustingly bigoted source that contains many articles advocating transfer of Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs, and which constantly portrays all Palestinians as terrorists. Why are you trying to tell DUers that it's a good source while attacking the liberal and highly regarded Ha'aretz? Do you agree with the views regularly expressed about transfer and Palestinian=terrorist that appear in Arutz Sheva? Did you realise Arutz Sheva has been under investigation in the past by the Israeli Attorney General for incitement to political violence with one of its articles about transfer? Is that really the sort of source you want to be recommending to people?

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. 'The issue of transfer is not unreasonable. '
This sort of disgusting sentiment is bigoted in the extreme. What is yr purpose in joining DU? Because nothing I'm seeing in yr post is the slightest bit tolerant but seems to be built on a hatred of Palestinians...

Violet...
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. They're Kahanists--which is Hebrew for Al-Qaeda. eom
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 06:13 PM by geek tragedy
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dajudem Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. oh, what is a left-winger?

I personally feel it is much easier to fly with both wings intact. I didn't notice any box asking for 'political affiliation' when I signed up. Did I miss something??
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. these
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

...

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

...
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dajudem Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. OK I'll bite....

What are the 'progressive ideals' which make up the litmus test for this forum? I mean, just so I know if I am 'generally supportive' of them or not. Or.... Is there a test I can take?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Here's one progressive ideal...
Supporting or advocating the transfer of Palestinians and Israeli-Arabs is NOT progressive and seeing this is a progressive forum, you shouldn't be polluting it with that sort of bigotry, though I appreciate the honesty...

Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yep, you sure did miss something...
And not systems has pointed it out to you, so I hope you now read it and take note of it...

Violet...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Welcome to DU! Despite what some may try to tell you, DU
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 02:06 AM by barb162
has a list of publications that should not be posted as shown on the "hate directory"
http://www.bcpl.net/~rfrankli/hatedir.pdf

I don't recall seeing Arutz Sheva on that "hate"list last time I looked, so post from there if you feel like it and you think it has a germane article. If you have doubts of any kind, send it to a moderator first and just ask them if they think it's okay to post. Generally, DU likes to see the well-known mainstream press as you can see by reading the general rules for all of DU and then the specific rules that apply to this forum. Take a good look at the rules and follow them and moderator advice...don't let individual posters tell you what's okay and what's not okay... they don't set the rules on DU.


from I/P forum rules on sources:
"A note on sources:

Please use discretion when referencing obviously biased or factually questionable material. Vanity websites are generally not as credible as the New York Times, the Washington Post or the UK Guardian and are likely to be locked. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself is the author readily identifiable and likely to be cited by the mainline world press or encountered in an alternate format (mass-published book, academic journal, newspaper article, radio or TV show).
Please avoid posting "information" from overtly racist websites. A good, but not exhaustive, guide is Franklin's Hate Directory (www.hatedirectory.com ).
Posting from Whatreallyhappened.com, Chronwatch.com or Debka.com is specifically not allowed "
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Regarding Arutz Sheva...
...I'll defer to one much wiser than I:


Coastie for Truth (1000+ posts) Sat Nov-19-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Autz Sheva is run by a bunch of kooks out past Jabotinsky and Bibi


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=105190#105226
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's certainly a post of wise words of wisdom. n/t

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. and this has what to do with the FORUM RULES as stated?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Where has anyone said it has to do with the FORUM RULES?
Sorry, barb, but do you have a problem with people pointing out that Arutz Sheva is a racist piece of crap?

Violet...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. what in the world are you writing about and when did I write
(for starters) racist piece of crap in my post above?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ShalachEtAmi Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. Barb getting under your skin?
Chill, relax , go for a jog.....the internets for discourse ...opposing views are thrashed out without any anger...

You don`t see Barb getting angry now, do you?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I saw the deleted post...
...and there wasn't any anger in it. In the same way you seem to think Barb is wonderful, it seems a lot is in the eye of the beholder...

Violet...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Why are you welcoming someone who supports transfer of Arabs??
btw, as Englander pointed out, I did NOT say Arutz Sheva was a hate site that appeared in the hate directory. I said it was a racist piece of crap. So why are you acting as though I said anything different than what I said?

Violet...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. My response to the poster was to clarify for the poster
what he or she should be following, that is, the rules of DU. I know you didn't state that publication was a hate site. So what? I was telling a very new poster about the forum rules, if that is okay with you. And I am not getting into that first question of yours there which has nothing to do with this thread as far as I can tell.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I'm sure they're capable of reading the rules themselves...
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 03:00 AM by Violet_Crumble
And no, it's no alright with me when you attempt to make out that I said that Arutz Sheva was a hate site...

That question of mine about why yr welcoming someone who supports the transfer of Arabs is because in this very thread the person yr welcoming has expressed their support of transfer, which I'm sure you'll agree is a totally bigoted stance...

btw, since you somehow didn't read the post in question, here's a link to it http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=124015&mesg_id=124129

Violet...
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. There are some indications that rules were not read.
This is getting a wee bit complicated and you are misstating my post, but... don't attempt to state that I am attempting to say that you wrote Arutz Sheva is a hate site when I am suggesting the new poster read the forum rules on sources. Arutz Sheva is not a hate site last time I looked

The rest...off topic /side issue to the thread article as far as I am concerned
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Noticing that someone is advocating transfer is offtopic??
Considering nothing you've posted in this thread has anything to do with the article I posted, what's with the sudden shyness as soon as it comes to noticing that someone with a very bigoted anti-Arab POV was sitting in this thread advocating transfer?? I take it that you also ignore any Antisemitic posts you see in a thread that aren't directly related to the article that starts a thread? ;)

Violet...

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #25
26.  We obviously have different interpretations of the opinion piece
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Please explain why we should ignore bigotry if it's o/t
I really want to hear this explanation...

Violet...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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