Israel Has Gone Too Far

[cranston36]

Israel has gone too far.
They claim they on a mission to save two soldiers who were allegedly kidnapped.
The reality is that Israel has clearly gone to war and has done so without notice and without regard for the sanctity of civilian life.
It is a shame to hear Lebanese leaders calling Israel a war-machine and having to consider, after all this time of believing them a valuable and civilized ally, that characterization may be correct.
Without warning Israel invaded Lebanon.
They stated at first that they did not do it and then later, when admitting the incursion, stated that they were only there for a little while – as if that makes a difference.
The level of violence they have visited on Lebanon is startling.
The impact of their aggression has sent waves of uncertainty through financial markets around the world. Business in Europe, the United States, Japan, China and as far away as Australia has been impacted negatively.
The Israeli Air Force attacked the civilian airport in Beirut and rendered it useless.
Peaceful business people from around the world are being forced to evacuate Lebanon.
Lebanese that had begun to return home to their war ravaged nation are being driven out by their neighbors, the Israelis.
It is a heroic effort to seek out the two soldiers who were heroically kidnapped. It is a cowardly act to destroy schools, hospitals, businesses and disrupt the lives of millions of people in order to get attention.

[Cornus]

1. So has the US

I'm not trying to justify what Israel is doing , but what we've done in Iraq is so much worse.

[lse7581011]

3. Agreed, But

that still doesn't excuse Israel for following our lead!

[LUHiWY]

4. Thats where you are wrong?

The neocons are essentially copying the Israelis...only they are trying to apply the concepts to the entire world?

Notice that the US went around the globe (Iraq) to set up the same kind of mess that Israel has?

Notice the pre-emptive strike concept?


Current US foreign/domestic policy seems to be a combination of what was learned in Central America and the Israeli version of the Mideast.

Manipulate elections to get whomever you want in power...and when they are in...call it a democracy.

If any group or country seems to be a threat...just take'em out.

[ProudDad]

7. You're even more right than you know

As I remember it, it was the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) that trained the U.S. troops in "how to treat Arabs" during the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

The responsibility for Abu-Graib, Faluja and other atrocities could rightly be placed at Rumsfeld/bush AND Israel's doors.

[cali]

12. No, the neocons

aren't copying the Israelis. The neocon philosophy is essentially the establishment of democracy through military might. What does that have to do with Israel?

[daydreamer]

28. The neocon philosophy is about greed. They couldn't care less about

democracy.

[cali]

34. Of course there's

a philosophy at the root of the neocon movement. It happens to be one I abhor, but it's simple to an absurd point to claim that it doesn't. You clearly don't know anything about it. Start with Leo Strauss and the University of Chicago.

[daydreamer]

35. Leo Strauss is an atheist. But he said to further political

goal, politicians should USE religion. He couldn't care less about religion. Same thing with democracy. It's just a cover.

[bdamomma]

9. and while we focus on what is happening in Lebanon

the war rages on in Iraq, and the death toll climbs.

[acmavm]

10. And you read thread upon thread upon thread about the

horrible crime we committed when the United States started killing Iraqi citizens.

The fact that this government is doing it changes nothing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. As Rabbi Lerner has said,

there were other ways to get back kidnapped soldiers, the main one being negotiation. Has anything been heard of the two who were kidnapped? Have they been released because of this show of force?

Edited to add: Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Algorem]

5. is probably the way that's been chosen to begin war on Iran

[Ian David]

6. That "Civilian Airport" was the primary hub for terrorist weapons traffic

What a terribly one-sided piece of crap you've written.

[jonnyblitz]

8. you are seriously one to talk about being "one sided"

anybody who supports little Israeli girls writing their names on bombs has a hell of a lot of nerve criticizing others.

[Ian David]

15. I didn't say I support it. I say I understand it. I'm mad at Israel, too

But there is a line between being outraged over the killing of civilians, as opposed to portraying Israel as a band of murderous Jews intent on poisoning wells and subjugating the world.

[KoKo]

17. Do you have a link to a news story about Lebanese Airport being used

as hub for terrorist weapons traffic?

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

13. I believe that mods have deemed

that site as a hate site. Perhaps you'll want to reconsider posting from there. And surely we can do better than posting pieces by Buchanan.

[USA_1]

14. Truth is hate???

The site is a conservative anti war site. It features writers such as libertarian Ron Paul and a number of liberals.

If the truth constitutes hate for certain critics and the truth must be suppressed, then we as a society are descending to the level of fascists. I would urge the mods to be very, VERY careful before deleting such thoughts. And if you cherish the American ideals of freedom of thought and expression it would be advisable for you to stand up for that truth. Ditto for all in this forum.


Peace.

[Voltaire99]

27. Which site? (nt)

[truebrit71]

16. Buchanan hits the nail on the head...what's wrong with posting that?

Or are we all so blinkered that even if someone speaks the truth we must immediately measure them by their political affiliation?

[cali]

18. Buchanan

is despicable, and whether he's right or not isn't the point.

[IndianaGreen]

20. We use "Support the Troops" to stiffle dissent, while Israel's apologists

use "Support Israel" to stiffle dissent. They don't the pro-Israel slant of US media, and their cheerleading of war against Iran and Syria, to be deterred by such things as facts.

[cali]

23. Oh please,

give it up. About the only thing I support re Israel these days, is their right to exist, and no I don't buy into the sophmoric argument that it's as bad as H'zbollah. I think comparisons like that are useless.

I do not support the occupation of the West Bank or Gaza. I do not support the criminal policy of collective punishment. I do not support the siphoning of Palestinian water. I do not support any settlements. I've said these things repeatedly, way before the current crisis.

The only thing I can figure is that I don't see castigate Israel as the root of all evil in the world, or buy into some of the unsavory conspiracy theories about Zionists.

Tell me again how my positions make me an Israel apologist.

[pelsar]

39. do you really have to ask?

you've been fighting that same fight for quite a while now....and no matter how many times you repeat it and how many times you say you abhore israeli policies....it still seems to stick.....

weird isnt it....seems the I/P conflict prefers the misinformed, the ignorent....makes its easier to make things black and white.

I did notice that if you really try to engage a serious discussion and ask for serious solutions, ask about different scenarios and possible solutions.....the discussion quickly ends....

[KoKo]

19. Buchanan has run for President twice. He worked for Richard Nixon and

he has his own magazine with a partner. Since when is Pat Buchanan (whom I don't like) considered banned from DU?

This sounds like banning books from libraries that you don't like to read. :shrug: You've been on DU a long while...why would you be against "free speech." :shrug:

[martymar64]

21. Damn it!

I hate it when I agree with that old paleocon Buchanan!

[alvarezadams]

22. The clincher

The last time the self-same group kidnapped THREE Israeli soldiers, Israel negotiated (via Germany) and exchanged them for 14 prisoners.

Kinda puts things in perspective, eh?

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. thank you. be sure and watch/listen/read Robert Fisk interview from Beirut

on Democracy Now.

link:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1345257

and this is a good website for information from inside Lebanon:

link:


http://www.electroniclebanon.net

[pberq]

30. Absolutely - today's Democracy Now is an excellent show.

Here's an excerpt from the show:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1346204

Another large protest took place on Tuesday in Dearborn Michigan -- the city home to the largest number of Arab-Americans in the United States. Nearly 10,000 people marched through the center of the city to demand that the United States pressure Israel to halt attacks in Lebanon and Gaza. One of the organizers of yesterday's protest joins us today from Michigan - Osama Siblani is the publisher and Editor-in-Chief of the Dearborn-based weekly bilingual newspaper, "The Arab American."

. . .

OSAMA SIBLANI: Here, we have a policy, the United States, the Bush administration has a policy, the declared policy. It says that we want to go out and gain the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims around the world. Is this how you gain the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims, by giving the Israelis an open invitation and support, total support, to go and kill innocent people and destroy the infrastructure of a country? This is not the way you gain the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims. And whether Democrats or Republican, they are committed to the help of the Israelis. They've been bought. Their soul has been bought. And therefore, talking to them is useless. Useless.

We have to talk to the American people. We have to start talking directly to the American public and showing them the way to become a greater nation.

[many a good man]

25. Disproportionate Force is a war crime, not a national security strategy

It hasn't worked in Israel and it ain't working here in the US either. The 21st century requires a new kind of thinking to battle nonstate actors. Civilian casualties are unacceptable!

[Az_lefty]

26. I still don't understand how destroying the infrastructure

in Lebanon is going to stop Hizbullah.
:shrug:

[pberq]

31. It won't - it only strengthens Hizbollah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria

See today's Democracy Now show:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1346204

OSAMA SIBLANI: Hezbollah is getting stronger in Lebanon, because every time you kill innocent people, by Israeli American-made bombs, people will be angry at Israel, at America. They will not be angry at Hezbollah. Hezbollah has not been affected in here. The Lebanese people are being killed indiscriminately by bombs from Israel, and therefore they are supporting Hezbollah, because Hezbollah is retaliating, trying to protect the country. And they have to get it into their head that this is not helping the situation. This just shows one more time, that we have a president who is incompetent, led by another incompetent prime minister in Israel. And we are leading the world into a disaster.


. . .Well, what is the U.S. service in here and the purpose in destroying Lebanon? I don't understand. I mean, this is making Syria stronger. This is making Iran stronger. Look, we went to war in Iraq in order to strengthen Iran. You know, Iraq stood against the Iranians. And in Afghanistan, we went out to take Taliban that were standing against Iran. We are making Iran stronger in the region. It is our own policy that's making Iran stronger.

And I tell you, this is a failing policy. This is a policy that is going to pay dividends, negative dividends to the American people in the long run. When they come and attack us again, I don't want to hear, “Why do they hate us?” It's very obvious why. Look at what's happening today and what we're doing today to the world, to the Arab world and to the Muslim world. And then, the answer of why they hate us is very obvious.

[jonnyblitz]

36. it is a great recruitment tool for Hizbullah , sadly.

what those dumbasses are doing..

[Voltaire99]

29. AP Photos: "Israeli children write messages on a shell..."

"Man hands on inhumanity to man. / It deepens like a coastal shelf."
--Philip Larkin





Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position near Kiryat Shmona, in northern Israel, next to the Lebanese border, Monday, July 17, 2006. Diplomatic efforts to end Israeli-Hezbollah fighting gained traction Monday, with Israeli officials saying the country would agree to halt fighting if its two captured soldiers were returned and Islamic guerrillas withdrew from the border. Publicly, the officials continued to insist their goal was to dismantle Hezbollah. But senior aides to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert office said he told his Italian counterpart, Romano Prodi, that Israel would accept cease-fire terms of Hezbollah releasing the Israeli soldiers and withdrawing from the border. (AP Photo/Sebastian Scheiner)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060717/481/c8723701e8f644f0b5befd7df750e8ea

See also:
http://thismodernworld.com/

[scholarsOrAcademics]

32. StopThink. Israel's Kafka metamorphisis

When does it become impossible not to recognize evil? Speaking for myself, when the distinction between military targets and civilian targets is white-washed. The destruction of civilian infrastructure croses such a line. It is inhuman to expect people to survive without water.
I remember the'Humanitarian Aid'to Honduras being piggy-backed by night flights of military aid.
The quantitative has metamorphized into a qualitlitive level of high evil.

[tomreedtoon]

33. We don't live in Israel. We have no voice in this.

As individuals we can say "We think this is wrong." But we can't affect it any more than the fluttering of a butterfly's wings in Japan, or Michael Jackson's observation post near a grade school.

We didn't vote for the current conservative, pro-war Israeil governmnent. Our only real mistake was naivete: we believed Israel could do no wrong, and supported them no matter what. We didn't know they'd elect a bunch of Rumsfeld and Rove types.

And we certainly can't stop them. Not only does the US hold zero influence in the world thanks to the Bushies, but there's nobody in government who knows how to negotiate with hostile parties.

About the only thing we could do is take up a collection to send Oprah and Dr. Phil over. And no, that isn't entirely sarcasm.

[Celica Toyota]

37. kick

[Celica Toyota]

38. kick

[Lithos]

40. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
DU Moderator