UN expert targets Israel

[DuctapeFatwa]

A UN human rights expert is preparing to submit a report to the UN General Assembly that charges Israel of triggering a "humanitarian catastrophe" in the Palestinian territories, newspaper reports said on Wednesday.

The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Jean Ziegler, said in a draft report that the Israeli military is preventing Palestinians reaching food and water with restrictions on movement in the territories, according to Swiss newspaper Le Temps and news agency ATS.

"The humanitarian catastrophe that is emerging in the Occupied Territories must be reversed," the Swiss sociologist and UN expert was quoted as saying in the draft.

"There can be no justification for harsh internal closures that prevent people from having access to food and water, otherwise the imposition of such military measures are amounting to what has been called a 'policy of starvation'", he said in the report.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1417702,00.html

[dfong63]

1. so how can any reasonable person expect the PA to stop terrorism,

under these conditions?

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Few would accuse either bush or sharon regimes of being reasonable

It will be interesting to see how quickly and deeply this report is buried.

[drewb]

4. It will be interesting to see how quickly and deeply this report is buried

Well, it didn't last long in LBN...

[Josh]

3. You're assuming they *want* to stop terrorism -

they don't. Plain and simple. And everything in between is just rhetoric.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Sure, that's rational

Israel just LOVES to have women and children blown up by psychopathic suicide bombers.

Sad.

[Darranar]

7. He wasn't talking about Israel...

so I can't make head nor tail of your post.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. No Wheaties

Thanks, too early. My bad.

[Gimel]

8. It seems that

from the previous message Josh must have been referring to the Palestinians. They certainly have not made much effort to stop terroism. Mostly it's for show, when they do. So if Israeli has use aggressive means to prevent terror, of course they will complain. The Wall is only a partial answer. A PA government that implements the agreements to stop terror, not just meaningless claims, is essential in stopping terror attacks. That will end the need for IDF actions, and reduce the suffering among the residents of the Palestinian area.

[Darranar]

9. "Agressive measures..."

dont prevent terror, they forment it.

Terrorism isn't a military problem. It isn't the kind of thing that you can battle in a conventional war and bomb/shoot/rocket to death. It's a problem that has its roots in domestic problems, and as long as domestic matters in the WB and Gaza are made worse, terrorism won't go away.

[Gimel]

15. That's one theory

but it's proved incorrect. Terrorism doesn't go away as long as it's feed by millions of dollars.

[Malikshah]

18. Nor does oppression of millions

As long as its fed by billions of dollars.

[Darranar]

23. Ever heard of...

Veitnam or Afghanistan?

[Gimel]

24. That's America's problem

They see everything in the world through the eye of their own past mistaken measures.

[Darranar]

26. How is it different...

then the current situation in Israel/Palestine? Aside from the flags, of course.

[Gimel]

36. Many differences

The US tried to supplant an ideology in VietNam. The US tried to hunt and destroy al Qaeda and the Taliban.

Terrorism isn't a military problem. It isn't the kind of thing that you can battle in a conventional war and bomb/shoot/rocket to death. It's a problem that has its roots in domestic problems, and as long as domestic matters in the WB and Gaza are made worse, terrorism won't go away.

Are you describing VietNam and Afghanistan?

Israel is atttempting to repel terrorism from decimating it's people and cities. Israel does not want to dominate and rule over the Palestinians. Hamas already claims to have enough money. The people could be helped and an economic infrastructure built, but their first priority is to destroy and control Israel's Jewish population. The Arab Israelis would be not be destroyed.

[Darranar]

59. You see...

I wasn't talking about the US in Afghanistan, I was talking about the Soviet Union.

What the US did in Vietnam was support a corrupt government fighting against a communist government that the people would have prefered. They used tactics that involved large harm to innocent people in order to do this.

The Israelis are trying to enforce an occupation that most certainyl does not have the will of the palestinians behind it. They ALSO use tactics that involve massive harm to innocent people.

[Malikshah]

16. Terrorism=Symptom

Right on Darranar--

As I've said repeatedly-- Terrorism, whereever it occurs, is a symptom. The proper course of action is to diagnose what that symptoms cause is--then fix it. (not an easy task)

Otherwise the symptom keeps returning and increasing in strength and scope.

Thus far--many have misdiagnosed the terrorism in this conflict as well as with al-Qa'ida. "They hate our way of life" "They hate us" "They are uncivilized"--

Wish people would think about these things and begin to work towards a just viable solution for all.

[bemildred]

21. This gets little attention.

Mostly because to pay attention to it is to examine the
need for change in one's own tactics and strategy, rather than
placing all of the blame elsewhere.

Terrorism is a weed that grows best in a certain kind of soil.
If one examines where and how it occurs, this is clear. It may
be found from time to time anywhere, but where it is common,
certain other social disfunctions, repression, lack of order,
will also be found. It certainly is linked to extremism, it is
an extreme form of violence, but they come from the same soil,
so this is not a surprise.

The current position of the GOI is that they will not address
the conditions that lead to extremism and terrorism until all
terrorism stops, a guarantee of the continuation of the present
situation.

[Gimel]

25. You're on to something, Malikshah

Keep a balanced outlook. It's a symptom. How could one of the world's richest men (bin Laedn) be the arch terrorist of the millennium?

[LastDemInIdaho]

38. It's a symptom for sure

A sign that the person or persons bringing terror to bear on innocent people are sick and/or full of hate. Once someone kills an innocent on purpose they are beyond hope unless the area of their brain responsible for their act is removed or changed permanently.

The pure and simple fact is that people are not allowed to target and kill innocents. There is no excuse other than brain damage. No act of terror can ever be explained or excused based on anyone other than the terrorist.

[Malikshah]

44. You just don't get it do you?

Who was defending terrorism here? No one.

Who is using violence against civilians for a political cause? Both sides.

The cause of terrorism, whether it be suicide bombs or flechette bombs (OK'd by the Israeli Supreme Court), is not singular--it's plural.

Myriad reasons abound--the best we can do is to do our utmost to focus our efforts on the causes and reduce and eliminate them.

Those who say "it's hate" and "just kill them all" are deluding themselves. Hate is in existence throughout the world, always has been, always will be. When hate leads to terror--there has to be a catalyst. Killing them all is an impossibility--there will always be someone who will take their place in a group or government.

[LastDemInIdaho]

45. No, you refuse to get it

There is no comparison between Israel targeting those the bring terror to them and the hamasbots that target women and children that have done NOTHING to anyone.

Hate i sno excuse to bring terror to innocents.

[bemildred]

46. No such comparison was made.

No such excuse was made.
You did not respond to the content of the post.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Ah...

Not responding to the content of the post seems to be a habitual thing from what I've been reading...


Violet...

[chapter32]

47. "Their brain...is removed or changed permanently..."

“Once someone kills an innocent on purpose they are beyond hope unless the area of their brain responsible for their act is removed or changed permanently.”

Your “pure and simple fact” that “people” must not allowed to target and kill innocents due to their “brain damage” sounds interesting.

Given that you are an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders, how do you suggest to “remove” and “change” the brains of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis?

[LastDemInIdaho]

51. The only mental disorder I know how to fix is those targeting innocents

Their organs are donated to bomb victims and their brain is left to rot.

[Malikshah]

52. A hopeless case

No--I'm not referring to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--

Rather to the posts of some of these folks.

It really is quite pathetic.

The point is to discuss the issues in a rational fashion. Ignoring the content of posts, repeating platitudes that are off topic, changing the subject, etc. It gets old real quick. Folks like these are doing no one any service, least of all those supportive of Israel.

At least there are some on the board who take the time to read posts and discuss the issues.

[chapter32]

54. “…some…who…read posts…”

And, some who delete your posts, with no explanation, when you dare to try to point out the neo-conservative and right-wing motivation by some who advocate the pathetic notions such as “extermination”, “liquidation”, “smell test”, “taking over and distributing oil as it fits”, "America and Israel are superior” and, now, selective “permanent brain removal”.

“Progressiveness” in twilight zone, all right!

[chapter32]

55. This is my last post on this board…

I consider myself an “impartial” poster who tried to learn different point of views. Sadly, I find the board increasingly polluted with hatred. It has indeed become the microcosm of Middle East mess.

Furthermore, it’s the deletion of the messages, by the moderators on their own or by the moderators based on getting “Alerted” by those posters who complain about the very rule-breaking acts they themselves are probably guilty of, that makes any meaningful debate so dunning. The system is broken. Eliminate the “Alert” button; don’t delete messages, instead leave them with a follow up explanation of their improprieties, if you wish.

Thanks for the hospitality.

Peace

[Darranar]

6. Oh, good!

More criticisms of Israel, please! Keep it up, since the US is unable to!

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. It is not easy to defend deliberate starvation of an entire population

As always, I commend the efforts of those who are tasked with such an unenviable assignment.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Security measures?

That seems to be the excuse for just about everything. It's handy, versatile, and coupled with the word terrorist can be tweaked to fit almost any situation imaginable and save the user valuable thinking time that they can then apply to pursuits such as writing off blatant bigotry towards Arabs as 'a bit strong' ;) Of course blatant anti-semitism would never be described in that way....

Violet...

[Gimel]

27. That's Arafat's cover

He has the capitol to feed the Palestinians. A millionaire has different goals. (Search Jane's for more info on Arafat)

[DuctapeFatwa]

28. Are you suggesting that he bribe sharon's gunmen?

The reason that Palestinians are not receiving food and water is not because they don't have any money.

Although Israel has successfully destroyed 90 odd % of the Palestinian economy, and most of the population is now dependent on aid, the problem is that sharon's goon squads will not let the aid get through.

I assume you are suggested that Arafat call the IDF on his cell phone from his bombed out prison cell and offer them money in exchange for allowing those few NGOS who have not yet been decreed to be terrorists for conspiring to feed Palestinian children to be let through the famous "checkpoints."

[Gimel]

29. Not money, peace

Perhaps he's beginning to see the Light? Stay tuned

[DuctapeFatwa]

30. Since Israel has refused every peace offer this week, just for starters..

It might be better from a mental health standpoint to just try to do the best you can with intellectual honesty.

It is the position of the US and Israeli governments that the Palestinians should not have food or water.

Under what circumstances would a position that the Israelis should not have food or water be acceptable?

[sabbat hunter]

31. arafats own money

arafat should dig into his own pockets and feed the palestinians. the millions and millions he has was stolen from them anyway.


peace
david
:hippie:

[LastDemInIdaho]

35. The "aid" Israel is stopping from getting through

is ships of bombs and people from around the world that want to teach the PA kids how to burn flags. The PA using ambulances to sneak in guns, belt bombs and terrorists does not help matters either. Arafats goons have made the simple act of getting aid where it's needed into a near impossible task because everything that comes in is now suspect.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Yeah, those flag-burners are dangerous terrorists...

Hey, maybe you can fill me in on this, but how much aid is used teaching 'PA kids' how to burn flags? Whatever the people teaching them are charging, I can undercut it and teach them how to burn a US flag on the cheap, plus I'll throw in my one-hour lecture sponsored by the GOI on 'Why The World Is Being Told That Shooting Kids Throwing Rocks Is Part Of The Noble War Against Terror'...

What do you define as a terrorist? Do you think attacks on Israeli troops in the Occupied Territories is terrorism?

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

34. hamas and the PA should spend their millions on feeding their people

real food instead of hatred of Jews and bombs to blow them all to hell.

Those ships full of terror weaponry that arafat tried to sneak in could have been carrying food to help his people. I comment Israel for being so patient after uncovering these PA ships of terror and hate.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

14. Fascinating

When folks cannot defend themselves, they resort to personal attacks on individuals.

Is this an effective method of debate?

So sad that some of Israel's supporters in this situation (the report) must resort to ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the issues.

Talk about weapons of mass distraction...

[Forkboy]

17. To quote DrDon

It's DU's oldest profession..attack the messenger and not the message.

[Malikshah]

19. Well

Still, "that don't make it right!" ;-)

Funny that.

The source of that little pithy saying...wow. Physician..heal..oh whatever..

[Cassandra]

20. Since when is asking a logical question a personal attack?

If I wanted to personally attack someone, I would ask if they were channeling Ashcroft.

[Forkboy]

22. logical my ass

nice spin :eyes:

[Cassandra]

43. Is that a personal attack?

Just checking.

[Malikshah]

56. Nope

Alluding to someone's employment status is a personal attack.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LastDemInIdaho]

32. I hope there is a UN sister report along with it

One that Charges hamas of triggering a "humanitarian catastrophe" in Israel and the deliberate murder of innocent Israelis. Is the UN afraid that hamas and its terror brethren will suicide them for condemning their acts of terror and total disregard of other peoples lives?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Are you for real???

How come every time the effects of the oppression of the Palestinian people are raised anywhere, yr only reaction is to try to divert attention away from that and on to suicide bombings?

Violet...

[Gimel]

37. First Line of attack

Deny the importance of terror attacks on Israel. It has to be sidelined.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. And where did I do that, Gimel?

I've voiced many times my opposition for suicide-bombings in this forum, so many in fact that I find it hard to believe that you haven't seen them. You seem to be having some difficulty understanding what I was pointing out so I'll expand on it a bit for you. Suicide bombings are terrible, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is terrible, but when someone constantly ignores on of those things or uses it to justify violence or mistreatment of any civilians, it gets a bit much. Unfortunately there are way too many people who seem to think that constantly trying to divert attention away from what's being done to the Palestinians by bringing up suicide-bombings as if they're the only thing happening in the I/P conflict. Personally I think they do whatever cause they think they're supporting more harm than good, and I think they should go and get a deeper understanding of the conflict and try to remember that civilians deserve the same respect and protection from conflicts, regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian....

Violet...

[Gimel]

53. Ditto

try to remember that civilians deserve the same respect and protection from conflicts, regardless of whether they're Israeli or Palestinian....

So why aren't the suicide bombing attacks on Israeli citizens a relevant response when the thread topic is Israel? If you think that the suicide bombings are in response to soldiers targeting terrorists, I say you're absolutely mistaken.


Edit for the html /

[LastDemInIdaho]

39. Because there is no excuse for terrorism

Far too often the acts of Israel are used or hinted at as the root cause or excuse for terrorist killings.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Learn the difference...

There's a difference between understanding why an attack happens and making excuses for it. Do you think that claiming that something's done to fight terrorism that it doesn't matter what it is and anything goes? That human rights go out the window if you can label something terrorism and make a tenuous link to an entire population? There's way more to this conflict than suicide-bombings, and trying to divert attention away from the situation the Palestinian people (oops, I mean 'collateral damage') are in makes me wonder why some people are so determined to try to stifle any discussion when it comes to the violation of Palestinian human rights...

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

42. stifle any discussion when it comes to the violation of Palestinian human

The "discussion" appeared to be more of a beat up on Israel pile on.

You can't stifle that which does not exist.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. Palestinian human rights don't exist?

Okay, but that's a weird attitude for someone claiming to be a liberal or progressive to have. If you don't think discussions on the violation of Palestinian human rights exist, then you should take the time to read the article that was posted, among many others that have discussed human rights violations and try to stop equating any discussion of the plight of the Palestinian people with a 'beat up on Israel pile on'.

Violet...

[Forkboy]

58. "Because there is no excuse for terrorism"

Yet you keep making them.