Gaza Doctors Encounter 'Unexplained Injuries'

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

by Donald Macintyre

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0904-05.htm

<snip>

Doctors in Gaza are reporting what they say are unexplained injuries among the dead and wounded in operations by the Israeli military, which have killed more than 200 Palestinians in the past nine weeks.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) is considering whether there is a case for an investigation into the injuries amid suspicions by the medics that the injuries were inflicted by what they claim may have been unidentified "non-conventional" weapons.

Beside especially severe burning "down to the bones", the doctors say that, in other cases, internal organs have been ruptured without any obvious sign of shrapnel wounds.

While a report from the Hamas-run Ministry of Health said the injuries raised the possibility Israel could be using "unprecedented" projectiles with "radiant" substances, the medics acknowledge that there is no proof so far of their claims. They also admit that the difficulty of establishing the exact cause of death is greatly exacerbated by the reluctance of most bereaved Palestinian families to allow autopsies...

[rodeodance]

1. what horrible deaths. I do hope SOME agency is investigating.

[Rainscents]

2. I hope someone investigate this and bring charge.

[Canuckistanian]

3. Ultrahigh frequency microwave devices

Fucking bastards just couldn't wait to use them on actual victims.

[Solo_in_MD]

4. Anything to back that up?

[frylock]

8. Microwave gun to be used by US troops on Iraq rioters

Microwave gun to be used by US troops on Iraq rioters

Microwave weapons that cause pain without lasting injury are to be issued to American troops in Iraq for the first time as concern mounts over the growing number of civilians killed in fighting.

The non-lethal weapons, which use high-powered electromagnetic beams, will be fitted to vehicles already in Iraq, which will allow the system to be introduced as early as next year.

Using technology similar to that found in a conventional microwave oven, the beam rapidly heats water molecules in the skin to cause intolerable pain and a burning sensation. The invisible beam penetrates the skin to a depth of less than a millimetre. As soon as the target moves out of the beam's path, the pain disappears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/19/wirq319.xml

Microwave weapon use in Iraq worries scientists

Scientists are questioning the safety of a microwave beam weapon for crowd control, due to be deployed by the United States in Iraq next year.

The Active Denial System weapon, classified as "less lethal" by the Pentagon, fires a 95-gigahertz microwave beam at rioters to cause heating and intolerable pain in less than five seconds.

The idea is people caught in the beam will rapidly try to move out of it and therefore break up the crowd.

But New Scientist magazine reported on Wednesday that during tests carried out at Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico, participants playing the part of rioters were told to remove glasses and contact lenses to protect their eyes.

In another test they were also told to remove metal objects like coins from their clothing to avoid local hot spots developing on their skin.

"What happens if someone in a crowd is unable for whatever reason to move away from the beam," asked Neil Davison, coordinator of the non-lethal weapons research project at Britain's Bradford University.

"How do you ensure that the dose doesn't cross the threshold for permanent damage? Does the weapon cut out to prevent overexposure?"

The magazine said a vehicle-mounted version of the weapon named Sheriff was scheduled for service in Iraq in 2006 and that US Marines and police were both working on portable versions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200507/s1418928.htm

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

20. "causes pain without lasting injury..."

...Yeah, I believe that. Who heads up this crowd dispersement technology program at the Pentagon? His last name wouldn't be Mengele by any chance would it? Fuckin barbarians.

[msmcghee]

27. Just a question . .

. . if your children were in a crowd that was being dispersed, would you prefer a weapon that "causes pain without lasting injury..." - or an M16?

[lumpy]

57. Which would you prefer, mcghee?

Does anyone have a choice. Most people would prefer not to be attacked with any kind of weapon.

[Canuckistanian]

9. Frylock beat me to it.

I knew they were testing some 90GHz devices. Extrmeley effective at frying humans from a distance.

[BrotherBuzz]

12. But what you won't find written because it's, well, it's a secret, but...

the US military has shared the information with Israel. It is common knowledge in military circles that Israel has developed their own version, and speculation around the Beltway is that the IDF have juiced the device from 'stun' to 'burn the burns'.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Microwave weapon use in Iraq worries scientists

Israel's arms supplier has some nasty stuff in its inventory!

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/images4/2005_war_photos/microwave.jpe

Microwave weapon use in Iraq worries scientists

Thursday, 21 July 2005

Scientists are questioning the safety of a microwave beam weapon for crowd control, due to be deployed by the United States in Iraq next year.

The Active Denial System weapon, classified as "less lethal" by the Pentagon, fires a 95-gigahertz microwave beam at rioters to cause heating and intolerable pain in less than five seconds.

The idea is people caught in the beam will rapidly try to move out of it and therefore break up the crowd.

But New Scientist magazine reported on Wednesday that during tests carried out at Kirtland Air Force Base in New Mexico, participants playing the part of rioters were told to remove glasses and contact lenses to protect their eyes.

In another test they were also told to remove metal objects like coins from their clothing to avoid local hot spots developing on their skin.

"What happens if someone in a crowd is unable for whatever reason to move away from the beam," asked Neil Davison, coordinator of the non-lethal weapons research project at Britain's Bradford University.

http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archive/sound_as_weapon.html

March 06, 2005

Crowd Control? The New Pentagon Product Line

One little "crowd control" device after another is creeping out of the darkness. The Newest one to see the light of day is a plasma pulse weapon that causes intense pain. The weapon is under attack by pain researchers who fear that the weapon may be used for torture. The weapon can operate from two kilometers away and is touted as a "non-lethal" riot control device. Why would you be two kilometers away from a riot? What is the target specificity of such a weapon? Do you just blast the entire area? What are the long term effects? All questions for which answers are not forthcoming.

The plasma weapon joins the E-bomb which "fries" electronic equipment; the people zapper that is also microwave based and causes intense pain (and possibly death); and a sound blaster (Long Range Acoustic Device) which causes intense ear pain.

Plasma weapons, microwave weapons, sound devices. What do they all have in common? They are invisible; they strike from a distance; no one knows what hit them; they leave buildings intact. The are also purportedly all "non-lethal" and for "crowd" control. They are also all military weapons. So what were the the New York City police doing with one?

One doesn't have to have a vivid imagination to come up with multiple uses for these types of weapons. They can be non-lethal or lethal. They can be used on a wide area, or a focused one. They can be used on "crowds" (simply a collection of people in an area) or on individuals alone in a room with interrogators. They all cause intense pain that stops people in their tracks. They can be used by soldiers or police (or CIA or prison guards) on military or civilian targets. They are all being tested real time in Iraq. Imagine the fear inspiring aspects of a weapon that is 1) invisible, and 2) able to be launched from beyond the perception range of those "controlled." That could be handy.

http://www.uncommonthought.com/mtblog/archives/2005/03/06/crowd_control_the_new_pentagon_product_line.php

[Bucky]

5. Well, here comes the next one

Another story to follow, even though I won't like where it's going.

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Key point is the inability to properly investigate this

...the medics acknowledge that there is no proof so far of their claims. They also admit that the difficulty of establishing the exact cause of death is greatly exacerbated by the reluctance of most bereaved Palestinian families to allow autopsies...

Without some kind of evidence chain, it will be hard to determine what caused them. We need to let the scientist go through this before we break out the tinfoil. Also remember that IDF did not have the only explosives in the area. There were reports of massive secondaries after some of the IDF strikes. Depending on what triggered them, atypical wounds could easily occur.

This clearly needs to be looked into, but lets see what the evaluation of the shrinking corpes etc from the scientific community before we start screaming war crimes, illegal weapons, and death rays.

[papau]

19. well said :-)

:-)

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GETPLANING]

11. DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS

What they are seeing is the result of a new generation of field weaponry called "directed energy" weapons. They are basically directed microwaves. They have also been used in Iraq, where doctors are reporting the same mysterious injuries. Flesh burned to a crisp under clothing that is untouched. The US Army has also been given the first generation of high power laser weapons that do similar damage. Witnesses describe the microwave weapon platform as a Humvee with what looks like a large TV monitor mounted to the roof, that emits a strong blue light. This is really happening, folks.

[IndianaGreen]

13. It is only a matter of time before they use this technology in the USA

And those of us that oppose the Bush regime will be the ones being admitted to hospitals with flesh burned to a crisp with untouched clothing.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

14. In Lebanon too...

http://alternet.org/story/39628

[tocqueville]

15. pass your order at Thor shield

http://www.thorshield.com/prod01.htm

Thor Shield
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Thor Shield Energy Weapon Protection Fabric is available in two densities; Heavy Protection (HP) and Light Protection (LP).

Heavy Protection Thor Shield fabric provides protection from non-lethal energy weapons as well as non-lethal directed Microwave weapons.

Light Protection Thor Shield fabric provides protection from non-lethal energy weapons and is suitable to applications requiring more flexibility and lighter weight. Available March 1st 2006.

[Drum]

16. Sales Requests

"G Squared only sells to Law Enforcement, Military personnel and Apparel Manufacturers for Law Enforcement and Military clothing."

:(

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

17. Money back guarantee? Just in case I get energized to a cinder...

[papau]

18. Prior claims never had any proof - were a "con" job - with the MD being

quoted as the attending or as the ER head turning out to be the fellow in charge of public relations.

Again this time there is no proof - seems there is a lack of native born pathologists in Gaza and for some reason all the non-native MD'S never get to do the autopsy. Even friendly Italian MD's can only say that some injuries might have been caused by phosphorus (which is a standard munition these days).

The actual chaos and death is bad enough. Trying to make Israel into the devil via these con jobs demeans the suffering that is actually occurring.

[cali]

21. I can only contrast

the eagerness of some here to believe that Israel is using secret and terrible weapons, with the utter fury that was exhibited at the suggestion that H'zbollah is recruiting children to become future suicide bombers. The latter was thoroughly denounced as Israeli and neocon propaganda akin to the Kuwait/baby killing/incubator bullshit, while this story is met as the gospel truth.

Yes, that says something.

[geek tragedy]

22. Every bad thing said about Israel is automatically true.

Didn't you get the memo?

[pelsar]

23. and that is a "normal day"..

here at the DU......any wonder why real criticism of israel is so easily confused with mere hatred of Israel?....It is interesting though, how such a little country causes so much hatred from those who have so little connection to it. Other countries have far more violent militaries, far more corrupt govts, far more everything (except for jews), but no one gets the attention that israel does...

if i were to believe everything i read about israel a summary would be:

that we control the worlds money markets, pull strings on world politics, own oil companies and hollywood, drink christian and muslim blood, kill palestenian children for sport and bomb their cities as a way to test bombs, make ray guns and test radiation guns on palestenians, gas them too, we put aids on candies and pass them out to "arab children." We control the US, the media as well as other countries as well.....(this is just the short list....)

oh i forget this special weapon...its actually true, for those who want protection i'm selling it...it does have a life long guarantee!

[breakaleg]

24. who hates Israel? I'd like to know where you see evidence of this.

specific examples would be appreciated.

[cali]

25. The evidence is in

the willingness to believe that Israel is using evil secret weapons that shrink bodies- despite the fact that no medical evidence indicates this is true. The frequent denunciations of zionism, the suggestions that Israel controls the US government. Anyone with so much as a shred of intellectual honesty would recognize that there is PLENTY of hatred of Israel around these parts.

[breakaleg]

52. but people are willing to believe bad things about the US and that

doesn't equal hatred of the US.

I asked the question because it seems that criticism of Israel = hatred of Israel. And I don't think it does.

[geek tragedy]

28. How about the eagerness with which people here lap up

any unconfirmed or unproven rumor, so long as it portrays Israel is a negative light.

Someone today blamed Israel for . . . Clinton's getting a blowjob from an intern.

[breakaleg]

51. so, believing a rumor = hatred of Israel? because I often see

people willing to believe negative rumors about the US and that doesn't equal hatred of the US.

[geek tragedy]

55. Well, we also see an unwillingness to believe sourced reports

(with pictures!) about Hezbollah.

What does that tell you?

[breakaleg]

59. going from

"an unwillingness to believe" to hatred of Israel is a huge jump!

Why can't some people disagree with Israel's policies and have it not be considered hatred?

[msmcghee]

61. All it would take is a . .

. . reasoned argument and not wild conspiracy theories. All it would take is having some semblance of reason in your arguments instead of calling Israel war criminals in every other post - for defending the lives of their citizens like any country would. All it would take is some small recognition that Israel was attacked by an aggressor who wanted to start a war - and the consequences that caused.

Hatred is always much easier to spot by those at whom it is directed than by those who express it. You should listen to those who describe the anti-Israel posts here as hatred.

My apologies to geek tragedy for jumping in. I couldn't help it. :shrug:

PS - I think every pro-Israel poster here would admit that Israel has made some serious mistakes. Your off-the-wall attacks on Israel for things they didn't do wrong - destroys the possibility that anyone would want to discuss those mistakes with you.

[breakaleg]

62. so now we've added more to the list..

so not recognizing that Israel was defending itself on Lebanese soil is hatred as well?

To sum up: if anyone should disagree with Israel - period - then they hate Israel.

[msmcghee]

63. Let's do this real slow.

The Hizbullah missiles were being fired into Israel from "Lebanese Soil".

Perhaps you would have preferred that the IDF line up along the Blue Line and give Hizbullah the finger in defense of the missiles flying over their heads into Israel and killing Israeli citizens. Then perhaps you would not accuse them of war crimes - or of "invading" Lebanon to steal her land.

To sum up - bizarre arguments that bear no relation to the reality of war and the death of innocents that are caused by those who start wars - is a prime example of hatred.

[breakaleg]

64. save your sarcasm. it's wasted on me

bombing Beirut and other NORTHERN Lebanese towns is NOT DEFENSE by any stretch of the imagination.

My question in this thread was to please tell me what was meant by hating Israel. And apparently it is defined as disagreeing with Israeli policy.

By that standard, there are lots of US haters out there as well.

[pelsar]

69. dehumanizing israelis....

for us israelis = hatred of israel....

claiming that were in the midst of genocide (as you have claimed i believe in the past)..is not just a gross misuse of term, its use is a blatant attempt to show how monstrous the israelis are....

thats a pretty good definition of hatred

[msmcghee]

26. A few of the posts in this thread are prime examples . .

. . of my belief that strong ideology causes its followers to select truth according to the feelings it produces. Ideologues believe what feels good to them, which is basically what supports their ideology - regardless of any logic or reason. If challenged, they will then use their brains to justify those beliefs rather than to examine them to start with - such as with strange procedures like counting the number of dead babies on each side of the conflict.

These theories in this thread support the notion of Israel as the evil monster inflicting horrors beyond imagination on the poor Palestinians of Gaza. It allows them to assign Israel to the role of aggressor beyond doubt and the Palestinians as helpless innocents - in their minds. It feels good because it wraps up so many positive emotions into one package. Note that the underlying conflict in almost all I/P threads lately has been the question of who is the attacker and who is the defender - who is guilty and who is innocent.

If you point out the unreasonableness and lack of evidence for their theories they honestly wonder why you can't see the truth that is so obvious to them. Such is the power of ideology.

IMO - if anyone wants to really understand the psychology of conspiracy theories and ideology - this is where to look.

Added on edit: I don't mean this as an attack on those who hold these conspiracy theories. We are all subject to such psychological effects when strong emotions enter into our lives. I would hope, that as good and honorable liberals all, we try to be aware when those strong emotions are affecting our beliefs and our decisions. The best way to defeat the RW is with reason - not emotion. Emotional responses may feel good, but ultimately reality will prevail. It's the first law of nature.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

29. How 'bout Israel's use of cluster bombs...

...on the civilian population of Lebanon---is that conspiracy theory too? Is the use of cluster munitions on civilians any less morally abhorrent than directed energy weapons that literally cook a person alive? Or are you in denial about this as well?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0831-05.htm

The reports from Palestine of these horrible burn injuries that leave clothing in tact are consistent with observations from doctors in Lebanon as well. I guess they're all lying, right? Just making it up?

Israel has committed major war crimes in Lebanon and Palestine and this is abundantly obvious to the international community as well as to many in the U.S. Stay in denial about it if that's what makes you feel good, but it won't change the facts.

Truth has a way of finding it's way to the surface and we're seeing this concerning election fraud, 9-11, and now Israel, and, try as you might, you'll never stop or even slow this process with condescending "conspiracy theorist" ridicule.

[geek tragedy]

30. No, because there's evidence of that.

See the difference?

[msmcghee]

31. Re: Cluster Bombs

Of all the reports I have read I found one report of 20 deaths from cluster bombs in Lebanon. In all cases those were from unexploded ordinance - which leads to the conclusion that if Israel was using cluster bombs they were not using them on civilian targets.

Toward the end of the conflict Israel discovered that rockets were being fired from pits with permanent launchers and that the pits were hidden by thermal blankets and brush after being fired. These were generally located in farming areas where piles of brush would not be unusual. These could also be easily covered up with dirt by common farm equipment to further conceal them if that were necessary after the conflict.

I suspect that if this report is true, that Israel's fire-finder radar led them to the general vicinity of the hidden launch pads - which would be immune to all but a direct hit. A cluster bomb however, which can blanket an area with smaller munitions, may have some chance of damaging the launcher or killing the operators if they were still there - if cluster bombs were used.

That's just my guess. But in any case - there has been no evidence that I have seen that Israel had been dropping cluster bombs on civilians in Lebanon.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

33. "...Israel was using cluster bombs...

...they were not using them on civilian targets." "...there has been no evidence that I have seen that Israel had been dropping cluster bombs on civilians in Lebanon."

Did you even bother to read the Common Dreams piece?...

<snip>

Mine-clearance specialists said densely populated southern Lebanon was blighted by thousands of unexploded bomblets, which can kill or maim if they are moved or touched. In one case this week 35 bomblets were cleared from in and around one house, while in another a woman lost her hands when a bomblet apparently became tangled in her tobacco crop.

Yesterday the United Nations official in charge of bomb disposal in southern Lebanon said his staff had identified 390 strikes by cluster munitions, and had disposed of more than 2,000 bomblets since the ceasefire.

Chris Clarke, head of the UN mine action service in southern Lebanon, said: "This is without a doubt the worst post-conflict cluster bomb contamination I have ever seen."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0831-05.htm

Again, if denial is what makes you feel better, by all means immerse yourself in it, but it doesn't change the facts nor will it effectively suppress the truth.

[msmcghee]

34. As I said, there is no evidence that Israel . .

. . was dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets. If they had the results would be unmistakable.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

36. And a bluebird is not blue...

...and the sun does not rise in the east and set in the west, and a bear certainly never goes pee pee in the woods.

[msmcghee]

38. Your logic is unassailable.

I guess I never looked at it that way.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

40. Thanks. I knew you'd come around.

[Englander]

39. No, that's not correct.

There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli forces were dropping cluster bombs on civilian targets,
since that is the reality of the situation;

'IMPRISONED BY BOMBS

29 Aug 2006
Source: AlertNet

Sean Sutton of British-based Mines Advisory Group describes a day's work with explosives experts in southern Lebanon.

Every few metres in the hillside village of Yohmor you come across some kind of unexploded ammunition or a cluster bomb. It's on a hillside next to the Litani River, 10 km southeast of Nabatiye and only 5 km from the Israeli border, and many villages in this area were repeatedly attacked by Israeli aircraft and artillery and reduced to rubble.

When a team from Mines Advisory Group first visited on the day after the Aug. 14 ceasefire, they found bomblets littering the ground from one end of the village to the other. They were on the roofs of all the houses, in all the gardens and across all the roads and paths. Some were inside houses, after landing through the widows or through holes blasted in the roof by artillery and aircraft.

A lot of people returned right after the ceasefire, but many of them quickly left again when they found their homes reduced to rubble and covered in explosives.

Iyad Olliek, deputy head of the municipality, says: "People were distraught. Many of their houses were completely destroyed and it was too dangerous to walk anywhere. A woman was blown up on the fist day trying to see what was left of her house. Only a few stayed here, most went away again."

MAG has been working in Lebanon since Israel last withdrew in 2000, and its four teams are now working 12-hour days, six days a week, in coordination with the U.N. Mine Action Centre. It's the only international organisation dealing with the unexploded ordnance problem, and plans to quadruple its capacity over the next two weeks.


http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/115685366766.htm

[msmcghee]

41. Where are the bodies from that ordinance that was dropped?

Your report only talks about some few people being injured from the bomblets after they returned. Your report proves what I said . .

. . that there is no evidence that Israel was dropping cluster bombs on civilians. Where are the dead civilians that the cluster bombs were dropped on? They would be there to find after the civilians returned. But they weren't there.

Added on edit: I can't imagine a valid military reason to drop cluster bombs purposely on civilian targets. If Israel actually did this I will join you in condemning Israel for that. Just show me the evidence.

[Englander]

43. Civilian targets = villages, roads, houses, &tc.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an argument about semantics, & a particularly grotesque argument
at that, I'd suggest if any case is reliant on 'hunt the corpses', then I don't have to do anything,
or try & provide a counter-argument, the case being put forward that the Most-Moral-Army didn't
deliberately destroy the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon fails due to it's own bankruptcy.

[msmcghee]

45. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I simply though it was apparent to everyone that Israel had attacked targets that were civilian in nature - and that the justification was that apartments, houses, roads, etc - were being used by Hizbullah in its fight with Israel. This has been well documented and attacking such targets is perfectly legal.

Further, if they were legal military targets (even though at other times they had civilian purposes) what difference does it make what ordinance was used against them - since that ordinance was not being directed at the civilians who may have been there at one time but were not now?

While each can kill people over a hundred yard radius, a 500 lb. bomb makes one big hole. A cluster bomb makes a lot of little holes. Each is more suitable for different targets.

A agree that cluster bombs have the unfortunate property of not all exploding on contact and that is regrettably dangerous for civilians when they return to the area. I doubt however, that Israel used that ordinance because they wanted to kill those civilians. I suspect the ordinance was selected as the best, possibly the only type, to reduce specific military targets.

Many innocent civilians die in wars. That's the main reason in my mind that people should not start them.

[msmcghee]

58. While in post #45 I apologised for any misunderstanding . .

. I must point out that in the first rebuttal post in this subthread (#29), Mr, Jefferson said,

"How 'bout Israel's use of cluster bombs..Updated at 9:23 PM

...on the civilian population of Lebanon---is that conspiracy theory too?

I see that Mr. Jefferson did not say civilian infrastructure or civilian buildings or civilian bridges - he specifically said civilian population.

Perhaps apologies are in order for suggesting that I was engaging in a "particularly grotesque" argument about "semantics".

[msmcghee]

32. Also, in these discussions, the most important fact . .

. that is never mentioned by the anti-Israeli side is that had Hizbullah not started this conflict by attacking Israel - who was at peace with Lebanon - then all the deaths which followed, no matter what type of weapons were used on either side - would not have occurred.

If you were truly interested in reducing the death and destruction in the ME, this would be the focus of your anger - not the particular weapons systems that Israel had available to defend the lives of her citizens - which is quite unrelated to the underlying cause of those deaths.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

35. You're suffering an amnesia of history...

...here's some balanced perspective:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RQyrAVufPhs

[msmcghee]

42. Your "balanced perspective" . .

. . from Ralph Nader doesn't mention one word about who started the conflict that led to all the deaths. Just what is it that you and Ralph are balancing?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

44. Israel over the last 40 years has made a...

...practice of repeated and continual provocation of their Arab neighbors for the purpose of drawing some kind of response, which they then use as a pretext for their militarism/expansionism. This latest assault on Lebanon is no exception.

[msmcghee]

46. Yes, all those suicide bombers . .

. . that have killed thousands of Israelis have served Israel's purposes perfectly.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

48. A long as Israeli citizens continue to...

...let people who think like you run their nation they will never enjoy a lasting real peace...

<snip>

Or rather there wasn’t. Which isn’t to say there’s been a lack of Palestinians. They’re all over the globe -- the United States, Europe, Asia, the Middle East (in Jordan, Palestinians outnumber the natives) -- everywhere, that is, except in an independent Palestine. And though it may be tempting to blame a group like Hamas for recruiting the suicide bombers that have so long bedeviled Israel, that would still leave two important considerations out of the equation.

First, that Palestinians aren’t fighting Israel; they’re fighting Israel’s illegal occupation of their territories, and see no incentive to stop. And second, that a teenager about to graduate high school abruptly finding himself at the funeral of his one-year-old sister, killed by an Israeli bomb as she slept in her crib, peacefully sucking on a pacifier and dreaming baby dreams, is unlikely to need much recruiting.

Abandoned, stateless and impoverished (and were that not enough, targeted) many Palestinians -- college students, professors, plumbers, young widows -- turn to resistance, which often includes blowing themselves up in crowds of Israelis, because in their minds to not resist would be akin to joining the living dead.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1161.shtml

[pelsar]

47. why have i been so blind...??

israel volunteered two soliders to be abducted to that israel could attack lebanon, kill lots of people, and because israel wanted to: (from previous DU posts)

take more land and build settlements

take water (i guess build a secret pipeline from the litani to israel?)

test weapons

...(thats all i can remember off hand)...so now that israel is retreating back to the Intl border as israel always said it would do....the reason israel attacked lebanon is._____________________(this is a fill in the blank)

[Igel]

37. So Lebanese doctors have never heard of

the internal injuries--things like stomachs and lungs being ruptured--by pressure waves.

That negative pressure'll do you in. Slow, painful, and studied to death. Specifically, the death of hundreds of sheep.

Gas expands more than the tissue can handle ... rupture.

Yuck.

[msmcghee]

49. Mr. Jefferson . . . your profile provides this quote:

Part of the problem of the progressive left is that we have fragmented into dozens of organizations, each of which must struggle for funds and email addresses and all the rest. We need to fold ourselves back into the Democratic Party and thoroughly invigorate it. Do not worry that we will cause the Party to marginalize itself. If the Party can base its actions on good science, effective governance, and efficient delivery of the programs the people need, it will prosper across all the left and all the middle of the American political spectrum. But by splitting ourselves off into all these good government organizations we have left the party to the selfish elites, and they don't know how to serve the people or the truth, and that means they do not know how to win. --Doris "Granny D" Haddock

Obviously, you are concerned about the strength of the Democratic Party and our ability to win back our government. I would caution you that the pov expressed here by you and many others re: Israel is doing the opposite of that. You are supporting an irrational cause - you are supporting terrorism against a state that is defending itself from terrorism.

No rational American, right, left or middle - is going to follow you down that road. No rational Dem politician will be associated with your far-left sentiments. Look at their websites. They all profess a strong and unequivocal support for Israel in its fight against terrorism. It would be instant political death for them to express views similar to your own - as it should be.

You are separating DU from the Democratic Party and the mainstream of American voters. But the most important reason that you should re-think your anti-Israel position is that it is wrong.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

50. "No rational American,...

right, left or middle - is going to follow you down that road."

I hardly think I'm leading any charge aimed at dividing the Democratic Party. Are you suggesting that the opinions I express concerning Israel are a splinter minority here at DU? We could test that theory if we were permitted to post polling questions in this forum--but, alas, we are not.

To frame Israel's conduct in it's attack on Lebanon as "self defense," is simply not accurate. And that might make a good polling question too. What kind of results do you think we'd get here at DU if such a poll were allowed?

I do not accept your assertion that I am separating DU from the Democratic Party and the mainstream of American voters, nor to I accept the characterization of my positions as anti-Israel. I oppose and speak out against their policies of war crimes and other crimes against humanity. I do the same concerning U.S. war crimes in Iraq, but I notice you do not claim that I am anti-American.

Here are some previous threads that offer at least some insight as to where DUers stand on Israel and related topics:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1694532

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x136185

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x134550

Now what was that about rational Americans?

[msmcghee]

53. I would not question that your views . .

. . are quite mainstream here at DU. That's one of my concerns.

I too am opposed to the US actions re: Iraq - exactly because I believe it is morally wrong to use violence except in defense.

The scale I use on Israel and the US is the same. The US comes up on the wrong side of that scale - Israel comes up on the right side of that scale - using the same consistent set of standards.

Your failure to use those same standards when weighing the actions of Israel and Hizbullah shows that you use different standards when Israel is involved. That makes your position irrational and anti-Israel.

I know you disagree strongly and I won't be changing your mind any time soon - but just think about it for a few days.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

54. I think one of the main reasons DUers generally have...

...a more enlightened and balanced view of Israel and the Middle East is that (unlike most Americans) they tend to expose themselves to credible, alternative media and know to filter the one sided propaganda U.S. corporate media spews daily concerning the U.S., Israel, and the Middle East in general.

If most Americans did this, President Bush could have been stopped and the invasion of Iraq would likely never have taken place. Also, sanity could be brought to our relationship with Israel and we could use their dependence on our financial aid to encourage sane, humane, policies on their part that could have a chance to lead to a real and lasting peace. That's what I'd like to see---for Israel and ALL of the Middle East.

[pelsar]

56. enlightened?

ray guns?

other posts:

targeting jounalists? (i must be derelict from duty, i have yet to shoot a single journalist...)

invading lebanon for its water? (guess the retreating IDF soldiers should fill their canteens from the litani

Gaza, the concentration/prison camp......with a border with Egypt that israel has no control over

the incredible "shrinking body" weapon

The IDF soldiers kidnapped were somehow kilometers in lebanon on patrol in humveee, (even though Hizballa and Israel agreed upon the spot in Israel)

Hizballa has the right to occupy s.lebanon and decide foreign policies for lebanon because, they're lebanonese

and those are just a few of the "enlightened posts

[The Magistrate]

65. A Great Deal Of 'Alternative Media', Sir, Is Far From Credible

It simply tells different lies and distorts in differenmt manners than so-called main-stream media. The idea, for example, that 'counterpunch' or 'Z-mag' is more truthful than Fox News is enough to drop a man from his chair in convulsive giggles. Their audience somply prefers a different sort of lie, and the liars calling themselves journalists provide same to that niche market.

"It's like fudge, only made of pigs!"

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

66. I did not claim, nor do I believe, that ALL alternative...

...media is credible.

[cali]

67. Then what precisely

are the credible alternative media sources that you refer to? Do you consider Counterpunch such a source?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

68. DU provides a wealth of credible...

...alternative media links:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/links/pages/News_and_Commentary/

If you're interested in a debate about Counterpunch/alternative media, maybe you can start your own thread in the GD forum. This is way off topic and smacks of an effort to distract from the substantive content of the OP, which is your well known signature in threads that are highly critical of Israel.

[The Magistrate]

73. Among The Points Engaged Here, Sir

Is the fact that there really is little that is substantial or credible in the item kicking off this discussion. It is based on reports from a Hamas-run agency, and cites persons who frankly acknowledge they have no evidence to back their claims. It is thus a pure exercise in propaganda. In the cursory comment actually describing these "strange woulnd", there is nothing obviously out of the ordinary run of battle-field casualties. The only other element of interest is the eagerness of some to claim that micro-wave "wonder weapons" are being employed, and theer is no support for this but a certain interest at the "gee whizz" level in weapons technology, and an eagerness to make one side of a conflict look as bad as possible, whatever the facts might be.

You yourself brought up the subject of "credible alternative meadia sources" contributing to a superior sensibility on the Middle East for some, and so are poorly placed to complain of persons replying to your remarks on the subject.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

74. As I stated in an earlier post...

...the truth has a way of finding it's way to the surface. The credibility, or lack thereof, of these reports will become clear soon enough. I believe time will show the OP piece and other related reports to be generally accurate and credible.

The distractionist tactics so often found in I/P are repeatedly practiced by the same DU personalities---a small minority of die-hard defenders of Israeli militarism. I think it's perfectly proper to point it out when and where it occurs, and having started this thread, I would say I'm quite well placed/justified to do it.

[The Magistrate]

75. Disagreement With You, Sir, Is Not Distraction

Nor is expressing of it beside the point of any discussion.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

76. Agreed. And I don't believe I've suggested otherwise...

...but "disagreement" is not an accurate characterization of the post(s) in question---"distraction" is.

This sub-thread does not appear to me to be going anywhere productive, so please feel free to have the last word, and thanks for your input.

[cali]

80. I rarely bother responding to your posts

because you're consistently disengenuous. For you to complain that I was trying to provide a distraction from the OP is a prime example of this. As the Magistrate noted, I responded directly to your post. As far as the canard about the die hard defenders of Israeli militarism, I've consistently condemned it. That's different from swallowing propaganda whole, like a python swallowing a fattened pig. I find your belief that Israel used bizarre and heretofore unheard of weapons, most telling about what you want to believe. And that clearly has nothing to do with finding out what the truth really is. Such an eagerness is not only distasteful, it's just plain pathetic.

[msmcghee]

60. From your avatar I assume the "Mr. Jefferson" in your ID . .

. . refers to Thomas Jefferson. He's one of my great heroes too. He had some interesting things to say during his time.

Here's one that Olmert could use without any editing at all regarding Israel and Hamas:

"In defense of our persons and properties under actual violation, we took up arms. When that violence shall be removed, when hostilities shall cease on the part of the aggressors, hostilities shall cease on our part also." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration on Taking Up Arms, 1775.(*) Papers 1:203

In fact, various Israeli leaders have made similar statements many times over the last decades.

And here's one that seems to apply perfectly to Lebanon and Hizbullah:

"Those who act together in war are answerable for each other. No distinction can be made between principal and ally by those against whom the war is waged. He who employs another to do a deed makes the deed his own. If he calls in the hand of the assassin or murderer, himself becomes the assassin or murderer." --Thomas Jefferson to William Phillips, 1779. ME 4:305, Papers 3:46

[Spinoza]

70. Well, one thing is for sure.

Considering the Palestinian population increase from 1967 (or 1948) to today, Israel is certainly the most INCOMPETENT genocidist (is that a word?) in history.

Throwing out words like 'genocide' or 'Nazi' or 'terrorist' to describe Israel is an obvious manifestation of....something else. (Which is NOT necessarily Anti-Semitism in motivation--I don't believe any DU posters feel an emotional hatred for Jews--but is akin to it in result. And genuine Jew haters, of course, make the same accusations.) These hysterical and deranged descriptions of a refugee nation, which more than any other nation-state has valid reasons to fear a GENUINE genocide, and which is populated by the survivors and their children of an ACTUAL genocide are-literally-insane.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

71. Huh? Perhaps you've inadvertently posted to the wrong thread.

[msmcghee]

72. You said,

"I don't believe any DU posters feel an emotional hatred for Jews."

Your comments about the meaning of "genocide" are on the money - but about your statement above, I am speechless. :eyes:

[newyorican]

77. LMGDAO

Read it slowly, or better yet, get someone to break it down for you.

[Spinoza]

78. Perhaps I am naive,

But there is a difference between a Nazi style Jew hatred (hating a Jewish baby because it's Jewish) and an hysterical and irrational hatred of Israel because it's a Jewish state. Both, in my opinion, are objective manifestations of anti-Semitism but only the Nazi actually feels an 'emotional hatred of Jews'. That is what I meant. The hatred for Israel has subtler and different motivations which is not necessarily 'Jew hatred'. But, of course, the result is the same.

[msmcghee]

79. I appreciate your distinctions, however . .

. . emotions, like hate, can not be reduced to specific cognitive definitions.

Such explanations are very poor substitutes for what one experiences emotionally. It is like trying to explain to someone born blind what the experience of looking at a particular sunset - feels like.

You can use whatever words you like but it is not possible for others, much less a blind person, to experience from your words the emotional perception of that sunset in the same way you did.

The same is true when we are talking about hate. It is an uncontrollable visecral reaction to certain stimuli (many of which we are not consciously aware of) that is very specific to each occurence in each individual. The words we use to explain or describe that particular emotion in us, at that time, to others - or even to ourselves - can never come close to the actuality of that experience - and therefore are usually used to justify those feelings or make them seem politically correct according to who we are talking to.

Added on edit: I'm not sure how clearly I explained this but I wanted to get across that the behavior we express (like saying certain things) in response to the emotional forces we experience - is very difficult to connect logically to those emotions in any coherent way.

[Spinoza]

81. I am not sure I understand your point.

I think we agree that hatred of Israel BECAUSE it's a 'Jewish' state (i.e. a state specifically founded as a haven for the Jewish people) and that condemnation of Israel by using the specific and vicious accusations that almost all Jews would find MOST hateful, hurtful and insensitive--e.g. 'Nazi' and 'genocide'-- are manifestations of Anti-Semitism. I was making a -perhaps unnecessary- distinction between out and out Goebbels style Jew hatred and the motivations that allow so many on the left to:
repeatedly apply double standards against Israel--
always believe Israeli actions have the worst possible motivations--
appear incapable of any compassion toward a tiny, democratic and blood-soaked nation--
never see Israeli actions in context--
be completely incapable of answering Pelsar's question of how EXACTLY can Israel protect its people when Gaza and Lebanon show that even complete Israeli withdrawal doesn't stop the missiles--
not immediately laugh to scorn stories of 'shrunken corpses'--
etc., etc., etc.

[muesa]

82. The US knew about RF injuries way back in WW2

Back in WW2 several Navy radar techs and radio techs were severly burned by antenna emissions.

Then there were the brain lesions and eye lesions from cell phones.

Here are some references--

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. - a good survey of the scientific literature

Anecdotal observation #1 - Did you ever notice that the ground crew people and baggage handlers never stand too close to the radar dome nose of an airliner when the radar is on.

Anecdotal observation #2 - Take a look at the fences and cautionary signs around, e.g., cell towers, radio towers, tv towers.

Maxwell's equations, antennas, and "microwave horns" are not a new secret weapon.