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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 04:52 PM
Original message
Tank system may be ready in months
Edited on Thu Sep-07-06 04:54 PM by msmcghee
(This JP article shows the craven indifference to our GI's and the total incompetence of this administration. Insiders in the pentagon apparently rejected an operational Israeli tank protection system in favor of an unproven one from Raytheon - that is under development and may be ready (or not) in five years. This is what we should be screaming about and holding hearings on. Convincing American voters that we would eliminate this kind of crap and really protect America would make a big difference in November.)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154526028940&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

By YAAKOV KATZ

A tank missile defense system, developed by the Rafael Armament Development Authority will be ready for installation on IDF tanks in "several months" if the Treasury decides to fund the purchase of the system, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

In addition, Rafael is currently hoping to gain from a Senate decision ordering US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to bring outside experts to assess the need for and use of tank defense systems for the US Army. The order from the Senate came following an NBC in-depth investigation into why the US Army had decided to purchase Raytheon's active protection system, which would only be ready in five years while the Trophy was already operational and ready to be purchased.

NBC claimed that there was too close an alliance between the US Army and Raytheon and that Raytheon staff were members of an Army team that had rejected the Trophy. (snip)
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Also, the more soldiers that return home alive...
...the more BushCo will have to pay out in veterans benefits. Dead soldiers don't need education, healthcare or cheap home loans.

The ideal soldier, from a GOP perspective, is one that dies on the last day of their tour of duty. Even better if they're blown into a red mist, because that saves on the expense of shipping a body home.

Why implement an effective anti-missile system for a bunch of cannonfodder you don't give two shits about?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, I don't want to put myself in the position of defending the US
Edited on Thu Sep-07-06 05:16 PM by bemildred
defense procurement system, which is corrupt as can be. However I am skeptical about this system. I wonder if it works so well on RPGs, why it would not also be good for Qassams and Katyushas? But in any case it would be good to get numbers on it's minimum reaction time and probability of kill distribution based on range, type of incoming, and stuff like that, and how much it costs, maintenance issues, etc. Some arms manufacturer saying that his product is good to go does not mean doodle in my experience, one way or the other.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, it's good to be skeptical.
My point however, was that this is possibly material for defeating Republicans in November. Is that a problem for you? Or, would you rather pass up this possible evidence of Bush's incompetence - since to use it would require you to tacitly admit to the dangers of terrorism?

I ask this in a friendly but challenging way - not in any snarky way. :thumbsup:
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. This is fairly arcane stuff.
Edited on Thu Sep-07-06 06:16 PM by bemildred
If military boondoggles were hot political capital, almost everybody in DC would be toast.

Edit: not that those interested should not try, I just don't think you'll get much traction.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. msmcghees's apology and edited post
Edited on Thu Sep-07-06 08:00 PM by msmcghee
Military boondoggles are one thing.

Delaying more than 5 years to protect US troops because of insider contract manipulation while the deaths in Iraq mount up daily - many of them from rpgs - is quite another.

Of course, the Dems are doing so well with their PR and control of the media these days - and with the way the public already knows that Dems are far tougher on terrorism and military defense than the Republicans - they have nothing to worry about, anyway. Right?

Excuse the slight sarcasm above, but it does seem more complex than that to me.

(Para edited out with my apology for unfairly questioning bemildred's motivations which was not necessary.)

I am trying to make you face the ultimate result of the anti-Israeli stance that is so widespread here at DU. Could it actually cause some here to dismiss Republican political shenanigans that endanger the lives of American GI's. Is it really worth that much to be able to condemn Israel - and Bush?

While I strongly condemn Bush's attack and occupation of Iraq - I in no way blame the GI's who are there doing that dirty dangerous job. I want them all to come home - right now - and safely. To dismiss their vulnerability or a system that could reduce that vulnerability as "arcane" is playing right into the RNC's hands.

That's the box that the far left has effectively been placed in - by their own doing. That's the box that most smart Dems did not get stuffed in on the Iraq war vote. It is the only reason that any of those Dems have a fighting chance in elections today. Bush is not suffering in the polls because he lied us into Iraq. Those who voted for him before and who have now changed their minds have turned against him because he fucked it up.

Perhaps, DU has become a place for only the far left and I am out of place to point this out. But I think these are things worth considering by anyone who seriously wants to see Dems win in November.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Again with the personal attacks, eh?
"Excuse the slight sarcasm above, but it does seem that you have other reasons to not endorse this defensive system for tanks."

Perhaps I just mean what I say? Or is that just not acceptable to you? In this post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x147636#147698

I attempted to explain my motives to you, and you responded with the assertion that I was claiming to be "altruistic", which is the opposite sense from what I was saying, that my motives were selfish and aimed at my own education and entertainment.

There are three ways I can think of to interpret that: that you didn't read the post carefully, that your grip on English is weak, or that the misinterpretation was deliberate, perhaps all three. But it does not really matter, the upshot is that if I take the trouble to try to respond to you, I can have no expectation that what I said, or what I meant will form the basis on which you attempt to formulate your response, so no communication can occur, so it's a waste of time.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Very well.
I'm simply saying, and I have considerable experience in the defense business, that this sort of thing is how things are done, and it's bipartisian in my experience. Since you have some experience in defense, you might have seen such things too. I don't really see it as an anti-Israel sort of issue, the fact that this system is Israeli is incidental, anybody that tries to horn in on Raytheon's business will face resistance. You are welcome to try to savage the Republicans with it if you like, I just don't think you will have much success, many Democrats are whores for the defense business too, perhaps a bit less unethical, but not much. And I don't question your assertion that the troops are sucking hind tit when it comes to this sort of thing, they do. Remember all the blather about armored vests? Or the stories about troops working to uparmor their HumVees?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. A couple other comments on defense procurement and
military culture:

Regression

Earlier this week, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced that the planned inquiry into Israel’s defeat in Lebanon would be indefinitely delayed. His hope, obviously, is also to delay his own departure from office, since the findings of any half-honest probe are not likely to redound to his glory. The fact that his likely eventual successor, "Bibi" Netanyahu, is Israel’s most outspoken conservative will not save Olmert’s seat after the fiasco he ordered and led. Israel seems to be unavoidably heading down the road from bad to worse, as far as its political leadership goes.

---

The virtues required in military officers involved in weapons development and procurement are the virtues of the bureaucrat: careful, even obsessive attention to process; avoiding risky decisions, and whenever possible making decisions by committee; avoiding responsibility; careerism, because success is measured by career progression; and generally shining up the handle on the big front door. Time is not very important, while dotting every i and crossing every t is vital, since at some point the auditors will be coming, and the politicians and the press will be waiting eagerly for their reports. Remunerative careers in defense industry await those officers who know how to go along to get along. While the Israeli defense industry has produced some remarkably good products, such as the Merkava tank, getting the program funded still tends to be more important than making sure the weapon will work in combat. As time goes on, efficiency tends to become more important than effectiveness; not surprisingly, the simpler and more effective Israeli weapon systems came earlier, and more recent ones tend to reflect the American tendency toward complex and expensive ineffectiveness.

The Israeli inquiry into the Lebanon fiasco is unlikely to address this issue for the same reason it is not addressed in the United States: too much money is at stake. The R&D and procurement tail now wags the combat arms dog. Nor is the question of how to reverse the process and restore the virtues a Third Generation military requires in its officers an easy one. Those virtues – eagerness to make decisions and take responsibility, boldness, broad-mindedness and a spirit of intellectual inquiry, contempt for careerism and careerists – are not wanted in Second Generation militaries, and officers who demonstrate them are usually weeded out early. A Third Generation culture is difficult to maintain, and even more – impossible perhaps? – to restore once lost.

Lew Rockwell

What did Machiavelli say?

---

In the meantime, the investigation has fallen into the hands of politicians, members of the various subcommittees of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. The interests of most of these politicians are focused first and foremost on placing the blame on other politicians. Numerous nations have faced a situation in which they have had to address the failures of their military leaders. The wisest and most experienced of these were the Romans, about whom the statesman and philosopher, Niccolo Machiavelli, wrote in his book "Discourses on the First Ten Books of Titus Livius:"

"The Romans were not only less ungrateful than other republics, but were also more lenient and considerate in the punishment of the generals of their armies. For if their misconduct was intentional, they punished them humanely; and if it was caused by ignorance, they not only did not punish them, but rewarded and honored them nevertheless. This mode of proceeding had been well considered by them; for they judged that it was of the greatest importance for those who commanded their armies to have their minds entirely free and unembarrassed by any anxiety other than how best to perform their duty, and therefore they did not wish to add fresh difficulties and dangers to a task in itself so difficult and perilous, being convinced that, if this were done, it would prevent any general from operating vigorously.

"As to errors through ignorance, there is no more striking example than that of Varro, through whose temerity the Romans were routed at Cannae by Hannibal, where that Republic was brought in danger of its liberty, none the less because it was ignorance and not malice, they not only did not castigate him, but honored him, and on his return to Rome, the whole Senatorial order went to meet him, not being able to thank him for the battle, they thanked him for returning to Rome and for not having despaired of Roman affairs."

Haaretz
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. israels defense budget...
is considered a state secret...which makes it a carte blanch for the IDF to do what they want with it.....its gets very little scrutiny.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Sounds just like here.
It's not secret here, but the numbers are made up as they go along, and there is a great big "black budget" that is secret.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I think it makes different assumptions
The tank being the target doesn't really have to do much in the way of acquisition nor does the defense system have far to travel (close proximity), plus the tank can likely survive when the destruction happens near by (much like ablative armor does as a defense). I am also going to assume that the defense system is much like a bullet. In a sense it is much like the Phalanx system on ships though they need more bullets to take out a larger system. A defense for a Qassam needs a rocket based system as the defense system needs to project a greater range, and as such needs quite a bit more sophistication (earlier target acquisition in order to give the interdicting rocket time to travel, etc.).

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. The system does have to figure out if "its" tank is the target.
So there is an "aquisition" & tracking issue. I assume the Qassams and Katyushas are travelling at higher speed, and could be aquired farther away. The system as stated uses "shotgun" like shells, probably one would need something a little more robust for the rockets. One could argue about whether blowing up the rockets at some short distance would help or not in the general situation. If the target has enough velocity, the shot would have to be timed with some care. Phalanx/Aegis are much more complex. My point was that if one can aquire and track RPGs well enough to do this, one ought to be able to aquire and track incoming small rockets and missiles too. Then you have the problem of shooting them with some sort of high-velocity slug or whatnot, but ...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. from what i understand..
is that its a "local defense"...the tracking is done a few meters away from the target....not from where the missle originates.

thats quite a difference in approach from tracking a kassam or kathushya. The attempt there is to acquire it at the begining without knowing its target, hence an area defense, which reaquires a very complex radar system....local protection is far simpler.

blowing up an anti tank missle or even altering its path would be enough to "kill it". They depend upon concentrated energy in a very small spot on the armour, destroy that concentration, which would be anthing that would disrupt it and thats all that is needed.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Good points.
Edited on Fri Sep-08-06 09:08 AM by bemildred
The question would be whether it is feasible to track and fire at the small missiles and rockets in this way too, as opposed to the "area defense" concept, this is or would be a "point defense". The comment about the ease with which an RPG may be disrupted in it's course seems relevant. Rockets and missiles, being imprecise to begin with, would seem less vulnerable to that sort of attack.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. The shotgun portion answers the question
And the statement that it is low powered enough not to affect adjacent personnel. It's an ablative type of system where they don't persee target the RPG directly, but rather activate a zone which in turn creates a pellet barrier that the RPG runs into. It's more indirect than aimed.

L-
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes, I think that armor penetrating sabot projectiles . .
. . require that all kinetic energy be precisely focussed along the axis of the trajectory. Any misalignment or premature firing of the sabot charge would probably make it ineffective.
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. There is a review of the system on Wiki
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Thanks for posting this.
There's a good video link in there.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is nothing more...
..than wrangling for defense dollars between Raytheon and Rafael (I have designed components for both companies).

In Israel, Rafael has the upper edge, in the U.S., Raytheon is a behemoth.

Any attempt to read more into this is a waste of time. It's all about the benjamins.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Newyorican....this must be a first....
we agree....i'm sure its no more than a money thing...who gets the bucks...
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. As for the political side of this
I wouldn't bet against you here. While I've not worked for Raytheon, I was around GD and Vought for a bit in a "previous career" and agree fully that it's about the Benjamins, no more, no less.

L-

Need to find that Weird Al album now that I've got the song stuck in my head.



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