Witnesses: IDF troops seize six men in southern Lebanon

[tocqueville]

By The Associated Press

Israel Defense Forces troops seized six people, including a policeman, in two Lebanese villages on the border with Israel, residents and Lebanese security officials said.

Four of the villagers, were taken in Aita al-Shaab, a village that saw heavy fighting between Hezbollah guerrillas and the IDF during their 34-day war, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.

A fifth man, from the Lebanese police security service, was also seized at Aita al-Shaab when he arrived at the scene, villagers said.

The state-run National News Agency said IDF troops also seized another villager at Marwaheen in the same region and drove him across the border into Israel in a convoy of two vehicles.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760517.html

[Rockstone]

1. Not this shit again!?!

[eccles12]

41. Why the hell don't the ME nations boycott of place sanctions on Israel?

They don't need the ok of the UN security council they just need some corage and conviction.

[LostinVA]

2. And the lawlessness of a sovereign nation continues...

[jayfish]

3. Let's Make Sure This Isn't Conveniently Forgotten Again So That...

when Hezbollah responds in kind and the IAF bombs the shit out of Lebanon, we remember where it all started.

Jay

[mitchtv]

5. Sorry Jayfish, doesn't count

it only counts when the kidnapping goes in the other direction.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[AlamoDemoc]

4. Israel is trying to increase the number lebanese prisoners, so that

captured are equal to those number asked by the international community (1400 Lebanese prisoners, since 1982)...cupture more, and less you report/hence negotiate one less.

[HuffleClaw]

6. a deliberate provocation

and to think they claim it was THEIR guys being seized that started the whole thing. *puke*

[pooja]

7. There is a difference between hezbollah--a militant group and

a sovereign nation recogized by the world. So, why are they taking Lebanonese prisoners??? Why are they in Lebanon???

[AlamoDemoc]

8. Israel is no longer a nation recognized as with decency and democracy

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

20. You should read the latest report on anti-semitism.

It's one thing that many have observed that anti-semites can't help but comparing Jews to Nazis.

For further reference, see the report on how poisonous rhetoric such as this post increases incidents of anti-semitism.

Does this style of anti-Zionist invective necessarily cross the line into antisemitism? Perhaps it is possible to imagine a very tight comparison of one specific aspect of Israeli conduct with an equally narrow item of Nazi policy that somehow did not feel like an assault on Jews—but it’s hard to see what that might be. The more generalised comparisons, used rhetorically à la Paulin, strike most Jews as fundamentally anti-Jewish for these reasons. First, they are hyperbolic: no matter how bad Israel is, it is not the Third Reich. Second, they seem designed to cancel out the world’s empathy for Jewish suffering in the 1930s and 1940s: under this logic, the Holocaust has now been ‘matched’ by Israeli misbehaviour, therefore the Jews have forfeited any claim they might once have had to special understanding. The world and the Jews are now ‘even’. Third, and worse, the Nazi-Zionist equation does not merely neutralise memories of the Holocaust—it puts Jews on the wrong side of them. The logic of Paulin’s position is that all the anger we feel towards Nazi brutality should not make us sympathetic to Jews but, on the contrary, compel us to redouble our efforts against the Zionists. After all, says Paulin, they are today’s Nazis. Jews end up with the gravest hour in their history first taken from them—and then returned, with themselves recast as villains rather than victims. If anti-Zionists wonder why Jews find this antisemitic, perhaps they should imagine the black reaction if the civil rights movement—or any other vehicle of black liberation—was constantly equated with the white slave traders of old. It feels like a deliberate attempt to find a people’s rawest spot—and tear away at it.

http://thepcaa.org/Report.pdf


I'm not going to say that you're anti-semitic, but anyone who uses the Israel = Nazi equation makes that charge a fair one.

[Malikshah]

22. Nope-- wrong again

sorry-- the tiresome old canard doesn't work anymore except for those who continue to put their heads in the ground and ignore reality.

Enjoy the oblivion, though.

[geek tragedy]

24. Did you even read the post?

It's one thing to condemn Israeli policies of collective punishment, hypocricy, etc. Indeed Israel does a lot of things--things done by a great number other nations--that deserve criticism and condemnation.

However, people bring up the NAZIS comparison because Israel is a Jewish state. No sane person seriously believes that Israel is substantially the same as Hitler's Third Reich.

People complain when Ahmadinejad, bin Laden, Saddam, Syria, Hezbollah get equated to Nazi Germany, but think that comparing the Jewish state to the Nazis is just hunky-dory. Biases are clear.

For instance, Hezbollah and the Palestinians use collective punishment by targeting Israeli non-combatants. But, a person calling the Palestinians Nazis would catch all kinds of crap from the anti-Israel crowd. And I'm sure that Zhade would be one of the first people condemning such rhetoric.

[Malikshah]

45. Yup- read it slowly and clearly-- and the final little bonmots added

with great relish. Hence my reply.

Would have thought that it would have been completely obvious.

Nice try-- but I'd suggest trying again...with different methods. Maybe focusing on providing a full, clear context to the events, using all data available... Objectivity is always a good thing to strive for as well.

If not, well then, I will have to end with the same parting remarks:

Enjoy the oblivion.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[Zhade]

55. Hold on, GT, that's NOT what I did.

I compared the Israeli military's tactics to that of Nazi Germany. I mentioned nothing of Zionism, or even Naziism itself.

You made a good point about the Nazi reference; please don't conflate what I said with what you just posted.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Zhade]

54. You make a fair point.

What would be a better group to compare the Israeli military's war crimes to?

(See, I have this funny feeling that ANY group used will be similarly decried as "hateful" or whatever - not necessarily by you, but the megaphonies in the crowd.)

[Lithos]

56. Several come to mind as being probably more appropriate

The Chinese, especially their handling of minorities in Western China including Tibet. The Russians would be fairly good as well, same with India and Pakistan, Sri Lanka. France in Algeria, the British in numerous places. I could go on. Hell, most of the world's militaries who are or have been extensively involved in asymmetric conflict.

[breakaleg]

57. I think that comparisons....

to Nazis are often made not because they have the most in common with Israel in terms of their actions or the amount of damage they inflicted. And certainly not because anyone is suggesting that what Israel is doing in their backyard is on the same scale as the Holocaust.

But more because Israelis' ancestors were Nazi victims and now they are the oppressor. It's just such a drastic turn around. And who would know more about oppression than Israelis and who would you think would be least likely to then oppress another people than the descendants of Holocaust survivors.

[Lithos]

58. I think it happens for different reasons

Depending on age of user, culture, etc. However, the crux of the matter is, it shows a rather weak user who can only stop at this comparison, ie who gives up when these are the only words. Obviously such a usage is culturally insensitive, it ease of use suggests that the person made no effort to not only understand how it relates to the culture of the participants it shows their lack of knowledge as there are better comparisons to be made for each case study which could be presented.

L-

[MrPrax]

9. Aita al-Shaab

Aita al-Shaab is the town, Hezbullah claimed they 'captured' the two IDF soldiers:




Didn't 'kidnappings' like this start the whole conflict in the first place?

:shrug:

[Igel]

16. It's where police, unnamed, said that

Hizb took the IDF soldiers.

Best to not raise an unsubstantiated claim to the status of fact. Esp. when it's a claim that Hizb itself actually didn't make. The single claim gets resurrected from time to time, but given the one witness saying the IDF were on the Lebanese side, and the multiple claims attesting to the contrary, it's rather a strange position. Instead of letting two witnesses or more establish a fact, it's saying that a single witness handily trumps multiple witnesses.

Oh, to have a bunch of people like that on a jury.

[MrPrax]

19. Um...

yeah whatever...not going bite...this posting is about CURRENT IDF incursions, not the ALLEDGED one that started the conflict ;-)

But your right -- lots of 'witness' statements in Haaretz's account:

Hezbollah kills 8 soldiers, kidnaps two in offensive on northern border

Eight Israel Defense Forces soldiers were killed and two others were kidnapped in a series of Hezbollah assaults on the northern border yesterday. Another five soldiers and five civilians were wounded in the attacks.

Israel responded with massive aerial attacks on targets throughout Lebanon.

The fighting began at about 9:00 A.M., when a group of reserve soldiers in two armored jeeps was conducting a routine patrol of the border. As the jeeps passed between Moshav Zarit and Moshav Shtula, Hezbollah attacked.

An initial inquiry revealed that the Hezbollah operatives had crossed the border earlier via a "dead zone" in the border fence not visible from any of the IDF lookout posts. There are dozens of similar "dead zones" along the northern border, though the IDF said that lookout cameras to cover this particular spot were due to be installed next week. The assailants may have used a wheeled ladder to climb over the fence.

The operatives hid themselves in an overgrown wadi about 200 meters on the Israeli side of the fence and waited until the IDF troops arrived, whereupon they attacked, apparently with a combination of explosives and antitank missiles.
Haaretz

Granted, Israel version is a lot more exciting and VIVID!!...

[acmavm]

10. Move along now. There's nothing to discuss. Everybody knows that

it's only kidnapping when it's an Israeli.

When it's a Palestinian or Lebanese, it's sport.

[stranger81]

11. so the IDF's capture of villagers in a country that isn't theirs --

one the IDF has no business being in at present -- passes without international notice or comment, yet the capture of two IDF soldiers outside their own borders -- again where they didn't belong -- is justification for bombing Lebanon back to the stone age?!?

[IndianaGreen]

15. The difference is that there is an Israel Lobby in the US with lots of $$

and there is no corresponding lobby for the Lebanese.

The biggest joke was to hear the Israeli ambassador to UN demand that Lebanon abide by one UN resolution, while Israel's occupation of Arab lands is in violation of beaucoup UN resolutions going back to 1967.

Israel is the GOP of the Middle East!

[geek tragedy]

21. Israel is the United States of the Middle East. eom

[IndianaGreen]

23. The Bush neocon version of the United States in the Middle East

with PNAC friends like that, who needs enemies?

I wonder how Bibi's visit to Cheney turned out. They were supposed to discuss the upcoming war on Iran.

[geek tragedy]

25. Well, if we're going to judge Israel by their leaders, we have

to apply the same standard to the US.

By the way, if Israel is the GOP/USA of the Middle East, what does that make its neighbors, all ruled by dictators?

[IndianaGreen]

28. Lebanon is a democracy

The same cannot be said about apartheid Israel, or the authoritarian regimes that surround her, including CIA torture contractor Egypt.

[geek tragedy]

30. Lebanon is a democracy now that the Syrians have been

kicked out.

However, the Lebanese state needs to be stronger than Hezbollah if it's going to survive as a democracy.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Israel would not have bombed Lebanon if Syria was still there

Sometimes I think that Israel and American foreign policies are guided by people that want both countries destroyed. The neocons have pretty much destroyed my country.

[geek tragedy]

33. No, then it would be a province of the

Syrian totalitarian regime.

The Neocons and Likudniks and the Baathists and the Islamists really thrive on the same discord and conflict.

[IndianaGreen]

35. And we enable them all by supporting the status quo

rather than working for peace based on a withdrawal to the pre-June 1967 borders.

[geek tragedy]

39. Agree 100%. eom

[zreosumgame]

12. so by their own 'logic'

Lebanon now has the 'right' to bomb aprtment buildings and hospitals and nobody has the right to say anything or they are Nazi's?

[Zhade]

17. Hypocrisy, thy name is Israel.

So now Israel, aside from violating the cease-fire, is nabbing innocent people? Hell, even Hezbollah only captured soldiers.

Notice the near-silence on the situation out there in our media? Once Israel couldn't kill innocents with impunity, suddenly the media quieted down about all this.

[breakaleg]

26. I'm not at all surprised. I can only hope they will suffer some

consequences for this (and everything else the've done).

[geek tragedy]

27. Who is 'they?' The Israeli government or Israeli citizens? eom

[breakaleg]

29. Israel.

[geek tragedy]

31. So, you want Israeli human beings to suffer.

What kind of progressive believes in collective punishment and wants people to suffer and die?

Proof that not all anti-Zionists are true progressives, or even decent human beings.

[breakaleg]

34. that was quite a leap you just made. I said no such thing.

If Israel isn't held responsible for this act, who should?

[geek tragedy]

37. You said you wanted them to suffer consequences "for

everything they've done."

What does that mean?

[breakaleg]

40. It means

by kidnapping more troops from Lebanon - as they have done in this situation. And the invasion of Lebanon, the damage they've done and the civilians they've killed.

I'd hardly call being responsible for your actions collective punishment. Besides, Israel has written the book on collective punishement in Gaza.

[geek tragedy]

43. What does "suffer the consequences" mean? eom

[breakaleg]

46. clearly you are trying to make some point.

My post is clear and I'm not getting dragged into whatever point you are afraid to make.

[geek tragedy]

48. You said you hoped that Israel suffers consequences.

What are the consequences you hope happens to it?

Simple question, which you are dodging.

[breakaleg]

51. You are reading things into my post that weren't there.

How about sanctions, withdrawal of aid, boycotting Israeli goods, and in my wildest fantasy, making Israel pay for the rebuilding of Lebanon, at least in part. And how about an open investigation into any possible wrong doing with respect to the deaths of the civilians in Lebanon. And why not throw in an investigation of their actions in Gaza while we are at it.

All this until Israel is in compliance with all UN resolutions.

Are you suggesting Israel has nothing to account for in their most recent actions?

[geek tragedy]

52. I would support everything you just said.

The phrase "suffer the consequences" has a rather sharp edge to it. I see that I misunderstood you.

Cheers.

[breakaleg]

53. I actually said

"suffer some consequences". Not meaning to split hairs, but if you had read my statement correctly, then you would have seen it doesn't have an edge.

It's about responsibility and accountability, not punishment.

[KAZ]

47. Oh stuff it. The country which you call the US of the ME..

...is no stranger to collective punishment. And stuff your straw-man while you're at it. Breakaleg did not say "suffer and die". You did.

[geek tragedy]

49. Breakaleg isn't willing to say what consequences

he meant.

[Jim Sagle]

59. It's what he meant, though. And everybody goddamn well knows it.

[Tom Joad]

60. fucking kidnappers. Nothing less.