IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

""What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds."

more

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. A million......

it's only a number. Pray tell where were these bomblets (doesn't that make them sound cute) manufactured??

[Scurrilous]

2. MLRS Multiple Launch Rocket System, USA

<snip>

"The combat proven Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) is a rocket artillery system manufactured by Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. The system is operational in the US Army, and fourteen countries have fielded or ordered MLRS: Bahrain, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Israel, Italy, Japan, South Korea, The Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and United Kingdom. The system has also been built in Europe by an international consortium of companies from France, Germany, Italy and the UK."

<snip>

"The basic MLRS tactical rocket warhead contains 644 M77 munitions, which are dispensed above the target in mid-air. The dual-purpose bomblets are armed during freefall and a simple drag ribbon orients the bomblets for impact. Each MLRS launcher can deliver almost 8,000 munitions in less than 60 seconds at ranges exceeding 32km."

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mlrs/


After Lebanon, 2 US Senators against cluster bombs

<snip>

"Two influential American democratic Senators, Californian Dianne Feinstein and Patrick Lehay of Vermont, proposed a motion against the exportation of US-made cluster bombs in Congress.

“The recent experience in Lebanon is only the latest example of the appalling human toll of injury and death. Strict rules of engagement are long overdue”, write the two Senators in a statement issued over the weekend."

<snip>

"Feinstein and Lehay, in a move to impede the exportation of the American devices – that based on international conventions should not be used in concentrated areas of civilians – with an amendment to the 2007 Defence budget called for the suspension of Pentagon funds for the exportation of cluster bombs unless the Pentagon can guarantee that they will not endanger civilians."


http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=5377&t=After+Lebanon%2C+2+US+Senators+against+cluster+bombs

[Tom Joad]

9. Have to remember to thank Dianne.

[Lerkfish]

3. ah, it appears the US is not the only war criminals using Whiskey Pete.

what has happened to humanity?

[breakaleg]

4. Since many human rights groups condemn the use of these in

civilian areas, will anything come of this?

[Tom Joad]

5. "What we did was insane and monstrous."

[geek tragedy]

6. Somebody should go on trial for this. eom

[Tom Joad]

7. I envision Olmert and his henchmen in orange jumpsuits, picking

up these bomblets one by one. Very carefully.

[Englander]

49. Olmert/Peretz/Halutz should be those somebodies. n/t

[Tom Joad]

8. This was all done on US taxpayers dime, too. Well, not dime, more like

billions.
Thank You AIPAC!
And thank you Lockheed!

[tocqueville]

10. IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

By Meron Rappaport

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

[Kagemusha]

11. Note how "bomb" and "bomblet" are confused constantly here.

Someone on this board chewed me out a few weeks ago for pointing out that the media has about as firm a grip on the difference between the bomb and the bomblet as reporters covering "assault rifles" used in criminal offenses in the US.

At any rate, the ratio of bombs to bomblets would indeed put the results of 1800 cluster bomb warheads at 1.2 million cluster bomblets. Vengeance is such a powerful political motivator because it's so emotional. Cluster bombing a small country like this is a very vengeful act, but rest easy - someone in Israel feels a lot better now.

[leesa]

15. It's the title of the article. How is it being confused "here"?

Talk about emotional responses.

[Kagemusha]

21. Here? Because the cluster bomb delivers the bomblets.

And 1 mil+ cluster bombs weren't dropped.

That's how it's confused.

I'm just mentioning that the confusion is normal because SOME people can't seem to appreciate it and the confusion has relevance when reading an article like this... and that's all, no harm intended. Either way, there's a lot of explosives for little kids to walk on and that's just not cool.

[Wilber_Stool]

28. Remember when the U.S. announced that the

Russians were dropping bombs in Afganistan that looked like toys so that children would pick them up and be killed?

[Kagemusha]

29. I don't think painting them gray so they look like old trash is better.

Just for the record, since I've seen pictures of Israeli bomblets that look just like that... made to blend into urban or village rubble very easily.

[oblivious]

47. Pictures of the bombs and bomblets in another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=146116#146209

[hlthe2b]

12. And yet, some will still try to give Israel the "high ground..."

I SAID ISRAEL--as in the friggin government. This is beyond immoral--no matter what Hezbollah may have been doing. Israel lost its moral compass.





Disclaimer NOTE: I have NO intentions of taking slop from those who believe any criticism of the Israeli government equates to anti-semitism, any more than I will stand up for that BS from Freepers calling me unpatriotic for criticizing my own government.

[xultar]

20. People will ignore your disclaimer and call you nasty evil names

because they have nothing else to do.

[hlthe2b]

37. No doubt...

which only goes to show that hypocrisy is not totally a RW attribute....:shrug:

[sam sarrha]

13. and 10% to 20% of the old old bomblets are laying around unexploded till a

child uses them for a toy...

these were very old ordnance and they have a bad failure rate.. there will be a lot of dead and one armed and one legged children in Lebanon after this

[Javaman]

25. a modern viet nam...

unexploded "bomblets" are still being discovered to this day.

the casual way the leaders of the world talk of this stuff, scares the living crap out of me.

We now live in the era of hate.

I truly pity the world.

[happyslug]

34. About 10-20 years ago some Unexploded Civil War Ordinance showed up.

You still have Mustard gas coming form concrete emplacements built during WWI (The allies had hit the Concrete with Mustard before it harden and thus the Mustard mixed in with the Concrete and now 80 years later, as the concrete deteriorates do to age the Mustard gas slips back out of the Concrete).

Unexploded Ordinance is a problem and will continue to be a problem, what we must at least try to do is NOT increase the problem.

[Javaman]

38. Wow! What a scary prospect...

My great uncle got gassed in WW1. Never ever ever spoke about it to my uncle or his kids. I was really little when he passed away.

I just finished a book on WW1, all wars are horrible, but the descriptions of trench warfare was beyond anything I could have ever imagined.

Like they say in writing, "it's never done, just finished."

[papau]

14. The idea that because Hez uses the equivalent of cluster bomblets in

their rockets fired into Israel at the civilian population, a response by Israel that uses the same type of ammo is OK - - is just wrong.

Israeli's need not sink to the same moral level as Hez and its muslim supporters in the process of defeating all their actions in their attempt to destroy all of Israel the state, and to defeat Hez's attempt to destroy the Jews of Israel and around the world.

[acmejack]

16. Untrue.

I ask for proof of that claim, the antiquated rockets launched by the hezbollah do not have anything approaching cluster munitions as warheads. While this does not justify the launching of said ordinance into Israel, the munitions do not have cluster bombs or if they do I would like you to demonstrate that they do. Thank you.

[papau]

18. ordinance meant ONLY to kill/maim civilians is the equivalent -IMHO

n/t

[JAbuchan08]

23. That's like saying nuclear bombs are morally equivelent to all other bombs

only more "effective." The degree of indiscriminate destruction and pain that a weapon causes is very much part of the discussion as to whether it is moral to use it in certain situations. It's not moral to cluster-bomb whole villages to root out and kill Hezbollah.

On edit: The purpose of Hezbollah rockets is to kill civilians, but they are considerably less effective than Israeli clusterbombs. To imply that these two forms of attack are equivalent is tacit acceptance that escalation is a legitimate response by Israel.

[happyslug]

36. Actually cluster bombs are NOT aimed to kill or maim

The real purpose of Cluster Bombs is "Route Denial" i.e. fill a road or other transportation corridor with the Clusters of bombs that the enemy takes another way. Thus bright colors are often used for the purpose of the bombs is to be SEEN. People Will recognize what they are and avoid them (and most are then destroyed in place by high power rifles fire, one cluster bombs at a time). The Bright color has the side affect of being attractive to Children who pick them up because they are bright.

What scare me is that these cluster bombs were described as "Gray" in color. If that is the case these are NOT designed to be seen but to actually maim someone (Most cluster bombs are quite small, aimed more to wound and maim than to kill, the rational is if you kill someone that person is quickly buried, but if you just wound him, his or her wound will have to be treated and thus tie up resources of the enemy in treating the wounds).

My point is gray paint defeats the main purpose of Cluster bombs, to warn someone not to go through a certain area. Instead gray would blend in with the surrounding ground and lead to people being wounded and maimed by the bombletts. Seem the MAIN purpose of the Israelis use of these Cluster bombs was to maim and wound civilians, and soldiers as opposed to denying the enemy use of a particular roads or other travail corridor.

[papau]

44. gray paint? They were direct from the US -& HEZ anti personel loads

are the same damn thing. How does one then make the attacker/terrorist on the State the good guy when they are using the same weapons?

From various sources:

Hez used Katyusha rockets and Fahr-3(the Iranian Katyusha model) rockets, with a range of 12.7 miles for the smallest of just under 50 miles for the Fahr-3. The Katyusha rockets have little guidance , and are therefore used by terrorist groups such as Hezbollah to cause terror and kill and maim the civilan Israeli population. People in Quiryat Shemona have been getting shelled regularly for the last 10-15 years, yet no one in Lebanon, no one in the West, and no one in the UK was or is prepared to speak up for them or to take any action to stop it.

The most common prior to th 90;s of the Katyusha rockets was the 122mm BM-21 Grad, but in the 90's a new version of the Grad entered service. The rocket could be loaded with all kind of warheads: cluster, fragmentation, antipersonnel mines, and antitank mines. Two disposable sealed transport-launch containers, each with 20 rockets, replaced the cluster of metal launch tubes. Launchers could be reloaded within 5 minutes. Other systems using multiple rocket launchers of unguided rockets developed by the Soviet Union included the 220mm Uragan (10 to 35 kilometre range) and the 300mm Smerch (20 to 75 kilometre range). The Iranians developed the Fahr-3, with a range of 45 kilometres, and this was widely deployed by Hezbollah and other militant groups.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/4-9.aspx ... in 2001 it was reported that "..features are also available to the BM-21 Grad. A new 40km range rocket for the Grad has been introduced, as well as a variety of new warheads: cluster warhead carrying anti-tank mines, a cluster warhead with antipersonnel mines, a smoke-generating warhead, a jammer payload operating in the HF and VHF bands, an air-target simulator, and anti-armor self-guided sub munitions. The control system of the Grad has been automated, including the addition of satellite aided navigation."

Cluster bombs or shells scatter scores of bomblets, or submunitions, over a wide area, typically the size of one or two football fields. These can be dropped by aircraft, or fired by artillery or rocket launchers. Depending on which type of submunition is used, between about five and twenty per cent or more cluster bomblets fail to explode. They are then left behind as explosive remnants of war, posing a threat to civilians similar to anti-personnel landmines.

[tocqueville]

17. "equivalent of cluster bombs ?"

you must be kidding. Some Katjushas with ball bearings heads have been fired what I know of. Frankly I don't see any difference with the "morals" of Hezbollah and those of Israel. The high moral grounds are supposed to be on OUR side. Or you fall into the Bush rethorics : "They torture, so we torture back". I don't understand the logics of some DUers blasting their own country for using cluster bombs and white phosphorous in Fallujah, but when Israel does the same against civilian populations, it's all of a sudden "OK". Talk about double standards.

I respect the "high moral grounds" of the IDF officer who has second thoughts ("what we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs"), but have hard to understand those who defend it.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tocqueville]

24. "and the muslim" ?

nice freudian slip...

Cluster bombs are not "meant to" kill civilians, they are meant to kill soldiers (like advancing infantry - or destroy armor in some cases). Their MASSIVE use against civilian targets is therefore a war crime, specially when the long term effect is known and when the bombing (72%) happens 48 hours before a truce is being signed

A ball bearing Katjusha (not necessarily aimed at a civilian target), is not "worse" than a some fragmentation grenades together. Even if firing them CONSCIOUSLY into a civilian area constitutes a crime, it cannot be compared with the Israeli massive bombings, specially when knowing their were of no militarily strategic value.

What Israel did in Lebanon is pure hatred and vengeance. It hit a population of 40% Christians and 15% Sunnis not supporting the Hizbollah. And you don't have to be a "supporter" of the Hizbollah to denounce blatant war crimes, no more than criticizing the US war in Iraq turns you into an "anti-american" or a "traitor", depending on where you live.

[papau]

45. "ball bearing"? - they were anti-personel loads - as in cluster bomblets

from the web

Hez used Katyusha rockets and Fahr-3(the Iranian Katyusha model) rockets, with a range of 12.7 miles for the smallest of just under 50 miles for the Fahr-3. The Katyusha rockets have little guidance , and are therefore used by terrorist groups such as Hezbollah to cause terror and kill and maim the civilan Israeli population. People in Quiryat Shemona have been getting shelled regularly for the last 10-15 years, yet no one in Lebanon, no one in the West, and no one in the UK was or is prepared to speak up for them or to take any action to stop it.

The most common prior to th 90;s of the Katyusha rockets was the 122mm BM-21 Grad, but in the 90's a new version of the Grad entered service. The rocket could be loaded with all kind of warheads: cluster, fragmentation, antipersonnel mines, and antitank mines. Two disposable sealed transport-launch containers, each with 20 rockets, replaced the cluster of metal launch tubes. Launchers could be reloaded within 5 minutes. Other systems using multiple rocket launchers of unguided rockets developed by the Soviet Union included the 220mm Uragan (10 to 35 kilometre range) and the 300mm Smerch (20 to 75 kilometre range). The Iranians developed the Fahr-3, with a range of 45 kilometres, and this was widely deployed by Hezbollah and other militant groups.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/4-9.aspx ... in 2001 it was reported that "..features are also available to the BM-21 Grad. A new 40km range rocket for the Grad has been introduced, as well as a variety of new warheads: cluster warhead carrying anti-tank mines, a cluster warhead with antipersonnel mines, a smoke-generating warhead, a jammer payload operating in the HF and VHF bands, an air-target simulator, and anti-armor self-guided sub munitions. The control system of the Grad has been automated, including the addition of satellite aided navigation."

Cluster bombs or shells scatter scores of bomblets, or submunitions, over a wide area, typically the size of one or two football fields. These can be dropped by aircraft, or fired by artillery or rocket launchers. Depending on which type of submunition is used, between about five and twenty per cent or more cluster bomblets fail to explode. They are then left behind as explosive remnants of war, posing a threat to civilians similar to anti-personnel landmines.

[eccles12]

22. Please explain to me why Israel govt isn;t being charged with war crimes.

Why there are not sanctions and boycotts against Israel and why the US keeps spending our treasure and children's lives to support the terrorist state of Israel?

[LynnTheDem]

33. As always, any moves against Israel would be vetoed by the US.

And that is one very large reason why we are so detested by so much of the world.

[razors edge]

35. they are sanctioned,

with the biggest checks we can throw up against them, and we boycot the repayment of loans as well.

[OneBlueSky]

26. how many kids are going to find one of these toys, pick it up, and . . .

blow their hand off -- or worse . . .

using cluster bombs is as much a war crime as using depleted uranium weapons -- or invading a sovereign nation that posed no threat to your own . . .

[gratuitous]

27. Don't forget the phosphorus shells

"Widely forbidden by international law." Very, very nice.

There's a part of me (not a big part, not a major part, but a part nonetheless) that just says "Blow the Temple Mount in Jerusalem off the face of the map. And then another bomb for the Kaaba in Mecca." Find something else to venerate. Or, ideally, nothing else to venerate, except the basic humanity of every person you meet.

[daleo]

31. There was an article in yesterdays Globe and Mail

About U.S. use of phosphorus shells in Afghanistan grape fields - apparently it is pretty routine there.

[donsu]

30. obscenely criminal war crime

may the perps we tried and imprisoned

and us americans should be made to clean up every last bomblet

[LynnTheDem]

32. So Israel committed war crimes. Gee, who coulda known?

And watch the rightwingnuts defend Israel's illegal actions.

:eyes:

[msmcghee]

39. Gonabuymeagun just said something quite amazing . .

But it is typical of many posts in this forum - and it is echoed by many posts in this thread. It is well known that if you tell a lie often enough it will become the truth. To prevent that it is necessary to continually refute this kind of dangerously untrue statement.

In #13 above he said, "That's like saying nuclear bombs are morally equivalent to all other bombs, only more "effective." "

Does anybody here ever stop to consider what it means to compare the relative morality of weapons used in war? Weapons are not immoral or moral. The people who use them are - and that morality is based on the nature of their motivation, not the nature of their weapons.

To use weapons against another who has not attacked you is immoral. It is the basic rule of conduct in all civilized society. It applies to small children in the sandbox in the backyard - just as much as it does to the one comprising most of the ME. Nisrallah has fully admitted to his guilt in this matter.

To use weapons to defend your citizens from attack is not immoral - unless it can be shown that their use was known to be unnecessary to that defense at the time - that the use of the weapons was solely to exact revenge by killing innocent civilians - that no part of that use was defensive in nature. Such a claim is hard to justify in most cases.

But, more significantly, what can be in the mind of someone who thinks that by comparing the effectiveness of the weapons that kill small children and innocent civilians on each side - we can determine which side "holds the moral high ground".

Once a nation (or a person) is attacked violently with the intent to destroy them - they have one alternative if they wish to live. That is to resist that attack with greater force - enough to guarantee victory as quickly and as violently as necessary. Anyone who disputes that have certainly never had a shot fired at them in anger. They simply have no idea what that is like or what the human mind does in response to that kind of mortal threat.

It is interesting that those protected liberals who find clues to morality in the arcane nature of the projectiles embedded in military ordinance - seem never to notice that all the deaths, on all the sides, caused by all the weapons used in a violent conflict - are caused by the nation that first attacked the other.

To say that the nation defending the lives of it's citizens from deadly attack - is the immoral party to the conflict because their bomblets didn't completely explode on time - is the height of moral blindness. It belittles the lives of all the innocents who are destroyed in such ego-driven and unnecessary wars. It makes their lives little more than tokens in an obscene game where their numbers and suffering can be used as counters to score political points for their cause.

And worse, it emboldens those thugs and cowards who disdain negotiation and dialog in national affairs - to employ that destructive force again with even greater impunity - and thereby they promote the very death and suffering that they so bemoan.

[breakaleg]

40. I think he was referring to scale.

More damage can be done with some weapons compared to another. While the weapons themselves aren't moral or not, there is a difference between a weapon designed to kill thousands versus a weapon designed to kill one person.

And again, a preemptive strike does not constitute defense. I think your argument is hampered by your definition of what defense is.

The use of cluster bombs to begin with was inappropriate. It's not just a matter of the unexploded ones. They should never have been used in the first place to kill civilians, target whole towns.

It's also not about whether the weapons are designed to kill innocents, it's also a matter of whether the weapons are in fact killing innocents. If you look at the figures from this war, Israel killed far more innocents than Hezbollah did. Can you not see a difference between sending missiles in a general direction and and hoping they hit something but knowing many won't (which is what Hezbollah did) and sending in precision guided bombs that did hit their targets causing huge casualties(which is what Israel did)?

[msmcghee]

41. Your post contains many errors.

breakaleg: More damage can be done with some weapons compared to another. While the weapons themselves aren't moral or not, there is a difference between a weapon designed to kill thousands versus a weapon designed to kill one person.

Your implication is that there is a "moral" difference between weapons that are designed to kill more vs. fewer people with a single use. Without dwelling on the obvious contradiction with your previous sentence, you are asserting that it is more moral to attack another country and only kill a few of their citizens - than it is to kill more than a few of the attacking nation's people in your defense. Your logic suggests that if Israel had held back and allowed more Israelis to die than Lebanese - then Israel could have earned the "moral high ground" - which of course is ridiculous. Perhaps next time Hisb'allah could just threaten to attack and Israel could execute a few hundred of her citizens so as to retain her honor on your scales of justice.

breakaleg: And again, a preemptive strike does not constitute defense. I think your argument is hampered by your definition of what defense is.

Are you still suffering under the delusion that Israel attacked Hizb'allah and started this war? Some intellectual honesty is needed if you really want to discuss these things. The only pre-emptive attack here was when Hizb'allah attacked Israel's patrol and again when they escalated by firing rockets into Israeli towns at civilians. Nisrallah has admitted to doing this pre-emptively. The UNIFIL report, usually heavily biased against Israel, spells this out explicitly.

breakaleg: Can you not see a difference between sending missiles in a general direction and and hoping they hit something but knowing many won't (which is what Hezbollah did) and sending in precision guided bombs that did hit their targets causing huge casualties(which is what Israel did)?

Imagine that in school a bully comes to you and says he wants your bike and he tries to kick your ass when your refuse. The fight is fairly bloody but you manage to defend yourself and even break his arm in the process - while you only suffer some scratches and bruises.

Now, he goes to the principle and says that even though he attacked you to steal your bike, that you beat him up unfairly and used your marshall arts skills, which he did not expect.

Now, imagine that the principle says that you were in the wrong for defending yourself too aggressively - so now you must give him your bike, that if you don't like that you will be expelled - and if there's a next time you better not use your marshall arts skills to defend yourself - that you better have at least as much blood on you as he has on him.

Rather than complain about the "effectiveness" of Israel's defense (which actually killed very few civilians based on the huge amounts of ordinance expended over a 34 day period) why not truly look for some moral justification for Nisrallah's pre-emptive attack on Israel - and not finding it - be prepared to condemn those who start wars and are the actual cause of all the death and suffering that occurs in them - if that is your true concern.

(Now, following the format, it's your turn to tell me that if Israel was not occupying the West Bank or whatever - that Hizb'allah would not have been forced to attack Israel pre-emptively. Go for it.)

[breakaleg]

48. OMG!

Only in Israel do they call offense defense.

The IDF goes into Gaza and kidnaps people and they are defending themselves. They send missiles into houses and they are defending themselves. They lock over a million people inside the walls they made to the point where they are starving, and they are defending themselves.

Do you see a pattern here?

In the US, self defense killing is justifiable when a person is in IMMEDIATE danger of being killed themselves by that person. Blowing smoke, does not constitute a valid reason. Except in Israel.

Look at what Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza. Are you telling me Israel is the victim here? If so, I'd love to have a little of what you're smoking.

And any sane person would simply look at the body count on both sides. Who is the aggressor and who has more bodies buried?

[msmcghee]

43. I don't want to overstate my case.

It is possible that Israel is guilty of some immoral use of weapons against civilians. Their guilt will not be determined by the nature of the weapons they used as much as by their motives for that use - if that can be determined.

That can only be judged in an impartial court empowered to adjudicate such charges and hear credible witnesses. If they are guilty I will condemn them along with you according to the nature of their crime.

I notice that the commander says nothing about the motives. He never says that he was ordered to fire weapons or deliver ordinance purely to kill civilians - and that the missions he was given or ordered to command had no legitimate defensive purpose. I imagine that if he thought that were true he would have stated so - as that is a far worse crime than dropping "too many bomblets". Or, perhaps that's why he didn't make the charge.

We shall see.

[papau]

46. So the guy who kills 2 is a better person than the one that kills 6?

The same ammo - the same purpose. Both should be condemned.

From the web

Hez used Katyusha rockets and Fahr-3(the Iranian Katyusha model) rockets, with a range of 12.7 miles for the smallest of just under 50 miles for the Fahr-3. The Katyusha rockets have little guidance , and are therefore used by terrorist groups such as Hezbollah to cause terror and kill and maim the civilan Israeli population. People in Quiryat Shemona have been getting shelled regularly for the last 10-15 years, yet no one in Lebanon, no one in the West, and no one in the UK was or is prepared to speak up for them or to take any action to stop it.

The most common prior to th 90;s of the Katyusha rockets was the 122mm BM-21 Grad, but in the 90's a new version of the Grad entered service. The rocket could be loaded with all kind of warheads: cluster, fragmentation, antipersonnel mines, and antitank mines. Two disposable sealed transport-launch containers, each with 20 rockets, replaced the cluster of metal launch tubes. Launchers could be reloaded within 5 minutes. Other systems using multiple rocket launchers of unguided rockets developed by the Soviet Union included the 220mm Uragan (10 to 35 kilometre range) and the 300mm Smerch (20 to 75 kilometre range). The Iranians developed the Fahr-3, with a range of 45 kilometres, and this was widely deployed by Hezbollah and other militant groups.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/4-9.aspx ... in 2001 it was reported that "..features are also available to the BM-21 Grad. A new 40km range rocket for the Grad has been introduced, as well as a variety of new warheads: cluster warhead carrying anti-tank mines, a cluster warhead with antipersonnel mines, a smoke-generating warhead, a jammer payload operating in the HF and VHF bands, an air-target simulator, and anti-armor self-guided sub munitions. The control system of the Grad has been automated, including the addition of satellite aided navigation."

Cluster bombs or shells scatter scores of bomblets, or submunitions, over a wide area, typically the size of one or two football fields. These can be dropped by aircraft, or fired by artillery or rocket launchers. Depending on which type of submunition is used, between about five and twenty per cent or more cluster bomblets fail to explode. They are then left behind as explosive remnants of war, posing a threat to civilians similar to anti-personnel landmines.

[Tom Joad]

42. What Israel did was " was insane and monstrous"

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war. "
Israeli General said.
I would quite agree.

My opinion of those who choose to defend these actions, like Cheney, Bush, Rice and even common citizens would be the same.