Jewish terrorist convicted of murder

[Spinoza]

in Israel.

The difference between Israel and its enemies.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1157913603257

[Tom Joad]

1. This is one of the very rare instances that a Jewish terrorist was

convicted of murder.
Read here of daily occurences of terror, and the refusal (or collusion) of Israeli authorities.
http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/

[Tom Joad]

2. Not to mention that this fellow will not likely serve his full sentence.

probably be out in 5 years or so... maybe less. No way to know until he either serves his sentence or is released, the point is that he is an exception.

Olmert is free. Sharon was never punished. And then there are the hundreds of other low-lifes who killed "only" one or two who were released or never even charged. the truth is that these crimes go on with impunity.

[Kagemusha]

3. First of all, such convictions are rare in the extreme.

Second of all, the act of terror was directed at thwarting the policy of the Israeli government.

...And third, Israel need not fear break-outs from its jails via an assault by organized radicals, which is a plague on Gaza with its weak government, which is hardly excusing the matter but, well, having enough physical security to KEEP such people behind bars, kind of helps.

I'm assuming you mean Gaza because if I spent all day looking for examples of say, the government of Saddam Hussein convicting Arabs for the murder of Iraqi Jews with some kind of terror motive, I might find one, but I doubt it would well, matter much. I do think it's good that terror is punished, no matter who commits it.

[The Deacon]

4. It Is Also Helpful

If you can pay your security forces - instead of skipping salaries because the Israeli Government is illegally witholding payment of import duties due to the Palestinian people electing Hamas in a free & fair democratic election.

[enigma000]

5. Setup by Bushco or on the level? n/t

[Englander]

6. Israel owes it's existence (amongst other factors) to terrorism.

Ex-terrorists have become Israeli PMs. The sons & daughters of terrorists have been elected to
high office in Israel, as is the case at the moment, for the office of PM & Foreign Minister. There
are museuems in Israel that celebrate terrorists, streets are named after terrorists, stamps have been
issued that celebrate terrorist organisations, ex-Israeli PMs hold ceremonies that celebrate terrorist
atrocities.

Which is something to consider, isn't it?

[breakaleg]

7. You make it sound like this is the norm. Instead of the exception to

the rule, which is what is really is.

[Spinoza]

10. Interesting that Israel

does exactly what a civilized and moral state which believes in the rule of law should do under these circumstances and the response is contempt, disbelief and harsh criticism. Had the Israeli court not convicted the terrorist I assume all the posters would have been (as I would have been) highly critical. However, the Israeli court does exactly what it should and convicts the crazy SOB and the response is.......hysterical criticism. Interesting.

[breakaleg]

11. It's because so many other crimes against Palestinians go unnoticed.

And to use the words "moral state" in reference to Israel, considering the many immoral things currently being done to Palestinians - live starving them, bulldozing their homes, and stealing their land - is just plain laughable.

[Spinoza]

12. I don't agree.

The conviction of the Israeli terrorist serves to highlight the moral differences between Israel and its neighbors--to Israel's credit. Where are ANY convictions in any Arab states-- with serious penalties--for Arab acts of terrorism against Israel?

Some of the other differences are: Pluralism exists in Israel, rarely so in the Arabic world. We see an Israeli peace party, spirited debate between Left and Right, and both homegrown damnation and advocacy for the settlers outside the 1967 borders. There are openly agnostic and atheistic Israeli Jews who enjoy influence in Israeli culture and politics.

Israeli newspapers and television reflect a diversity of views, from rabid Zionism to almost suicidal pacifism. There are Arab-Israeli legislators — and plenty of Jewish intellectuals who openly write and broadcast in opposition to the particular government of the day. Is that liberality ever really true in Palestine? Could a Palestinian, Egyptian, or Syrian novelist write something favorable about Golda Meir, hostile to Mr. Assad or Mubarak, or craft a systematic satire about Islam? Past experience suggests such iconoclasts and would-be critics might suffer stones and fatwas rather than mere ripostes in the letters to the editor of the local newspapers.

Israel — whether its GNP, free society, or liberal press — is a wound to the psyche, not a threat to the material condition, of the Arab world. The Israeli courts are capable of convicting Israelis for crimes against Arabs. The reverse does not apperar to be possible at this time.

[breakaleg]

13. The problem with what you are saying is that you are comparing

Israel with Arab states, not the United States and other western democracies.

Does the US run an Apartheid state? Does the US steal land from certain ethnic groups or deny certain ethnic groups building permits? Does it say that when you leave the US for a vacation you may not come back? The list of such things is endless in Israel.

Israel may be more democratic than it's neighbors, but it's a far cry from a full fledged democracy.

And committing the acts Israel does with US money is an outrage.

[pelsar]

15. why cant israel be compared to other arab states?

are you saying that those "arab states" arent capable of basic rules of justice?...courts of law?....are you including the Palestinian "justice system" as one that "cant live up to basic civil rights?

perhaps you should explain why that is?...why you are lowing the bar of morality and civil rights for them?...in fact i would wonder, if you believe that their honor killings are "perfectly ok' since they dont live in democracies....

if those "arent acceptable"...how do you decide which civil rights are and which arent.....just because they arent democracies (hanging homosexuals?, dragging moralilty offenders through the streets?...which)

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Because it's a liberal democracy!!!

At least that's what you always say when I do try to compare Israel with other states :)

[pelsar]

22. and the arabs are a "lesser" beings?

so as far as i understand, one cant expect "citizen of syria/lebanon/gaza/ to enjoy equal civil rights because they have a "bad government".

i'm sure the homosexuals of iran would appreciate that line of reasoning.....thats seems to be the logic:

since iran is a dictatorship, its ok for them to send children to clear mines....its ok for them to hang little girls...why?..becuase they're not a democracy.....

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I think you may have to ask yrself that question...

After all, yr the one who's repeatedly said that Israel can't be compared to other states (on censorship for example) coz it's a liberal democracy.

[breakaleg]

26. Because Israel pretends to be a democracy so it should be held to

the standards of other democracies.

[Spinoza]

28. Your accusations

do not even deserve a response. But I can't help myself. Please explain exactly how and in what way Israel is less 'democratic' than any other Parliamentary democracy.

Regarding 'Apartheid' you are talking in the case of S. Africa about a state which was entirely based on race, and upon the oppression of one race by another. This was codified in law. The ONLY distinctions under Israeli law between Jews and non-Jews are:

1) Jews may claim immediate citizenship under the 1948 'Law of Return'. Non-Jews may still become Israeli citizens but they must first satisfy a 3 year residency and procedural requirement. All Arabs and their decendants living in Israel as of 1949 were granted Israeli citizenship.
2) Only Jews are subject to a draft in the IDF. Non-Jews may serve in the army as volunteers, but are not drafted.

Of course, as is true of minorities in virtually every other nation including the U.S., there has been discrimination against Arab Israelis by the majority Jewish population. Until recently Arabs could not buy homes in certain Jewish areas just as Jews cannot buy homes in Arab villages. However a decision by the Israeli Supreme Court in 2002 ruled that, in the words of Chief Justice Aharon Barak: "...the principle of equality prohibits the state from distinguishing between its citizens on the basis of religion or nationality.....The Jewish character of the state does not permit Israel to discriminate between its citizens." It is fair to say that Israel, led by its progressive Supreme Court, is making considerable progress in eliminating the vestiges of anti-Arab discrimination that were largely a product of the refusal of the Arab world to accept a Jewish state. It is also fair to say that despite some lingering inequalities there is far less discrimination against minorities in Israel than in any other Middle Eastern nation.

Israel is a democratic state, created by the United Nations, in which its Arab citizens are full citizens. Respect for the rights of others is an express part of Israel's charter. Calling Israel an 'apartheid' state is a pure canard.

But what is really interesting to me is the fact that Israel takes an action that-- presumably--you approve of (the conviction of the Israeli terrorist) and your response is.....more violent and hysterical criticism of Israel. Obviously any and all Israeli actions, even those actions you agree with, merit disaproval in your book.

But enough. You may have the last word if you wish.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. the entire land management system within Israel makes it extremely

difficult for Palestinians with Israeli citizenship to live outside of designated communities even if it is not specifically stated in law. Palestinian communities within Israel seldom are allowed to extend their municipal borders and permits for new housing for so-called Israeli-Arabs are extremely difficult to come by. Under very dubious pretext land owned by Palestinian-Israeli communites, families and individuals is very frequently confiscated and ends up in the hands of the JNF who manage the lion share of available land within Israel. Unable to secure permits for building or extending housing, a great deal of housing built by Israel-Arabs is demolished. In 2003 a total of more than 500 Palestinian homes were demolished within Israel itself. Tens of thousands of homes within Israel face possible demolition orders for this reason. They build without the unavailable permits and face possible later demolition later. They have no choice.

Opportunities in education and employment are equally restrictive. The Israeli state on average spends about one fourth as much on an Israeli-Arab child's education as it does for other Israelis.

It is clear that this is not just a matter of typical prejudice that any minority might face in any society but is systemic and systematic throughout the entire system.

None of this even touches on the question of the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories.

The plight of the Palestinian with Israeli citizenship is often completely overlooked.

Susan Nathan is one Israeli author who in 2005 wrote a very good book on the subject. Susan Nathan, a few years ago took it upon herself to move into the Arab town of Tamra in Northern Galilee and to live as the only Jewish person in a Palestinian-Muslim community of 25,000. Ms. Nathan who had at one earlier point in her younger years lived in apartheid South Africa does indeed use the word apartheid to describe the situation of the Palestinian with Israeli citizenship. Her book is titled: The Other Side of Israel: My Journey Across the Jewish/Arab Divide.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385514565/104-5144719-0603152?ie=UTF8

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. I agree that for a bit more than half the population living in Israel and

the Occupied Territories -- Israel is an open and pluralistic democracy. Occasionally a Palestinian person does win justice in the system. But can every Palestinian spend ever day of their life fighting in the courts to achieve what should naturally be theirs?

The entire argument seems to be over the question of whether Israel is an enlightened liberal democracy or whether it is a racist apartheid state. I would suggest that it is both; depending on which side of the ethnic divide they were born into.

To the credit of the more enlightened aspect of Israel there are those in Israeli society who try to make their side of the divide more enlightened about how their system treats the other side of the divide.

Hay I have an idea! How about extending the principles of enlightened liberal pluralistic democracy to everyone under Israeli sovereignty?



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_israel.html

Machsom Watch (Monitors abuse at checkpoints)

http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/homePageEng.asp?link=homePage&lang=eng


.

[Spinoza]

30. Please see my post # 28

above.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. And again, yr wrong...

Where are ANY convictions in any Arab states-- with serious penalties--for Arab acts of terrorism against Israel?

Did I miss the bit in the article where it said sentencing had happened and that it was a serious penalty? The Israeli courts are capable of convicting Israelis for crimes against Palestinians, but they have yet to show they are capable of handing down serious penalties that reflect the magnitude of the crime committed....

There are openly agnostic and atheistic Israeli Jews who enjoy influence in Israeli culture and politics.

Surely you don't believe that there's no influential agnostic or atheist Palestinians???

There are Arab-Israeli legislators — and plenty of Jewish intellectuals who openly write and broadcast in opposition to the particular government of the day.

So Fatah and its supporters are just a figment of our imaginations? Oh-kay....

Y'know, instead of taking a ridiculous 'my side is wonderful and the other side is evil' approach, it'd make more sense to be objective and learn about the Palestinian people and their lives before trying to point out any differences...

[Spinoza]

29. Please

see

[Violet_Crumble]

33. See what? That reply looked unfinished n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Exactly!

There are those here that will never praise Israel for doing something right. They are anti-Israeli to the core! Nothing is ever good enough. I would even guess that if Israel moved into the sea they would bitch about that too!

[Violet_Crumble]

17. And it goes the other way as well...

There are those here that will never criticise Israel for doing something wrong. Fortunately the ones you go on about are far, far fewer than the flood of posts you devote to this worn-out lemon, and none of them are posting in this thread :)

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Like clockwork...

...a nonsense post. ;)

[Violet_Crumble]

24. What was nonsensical about it?

As opposed to what I replied to?

[Behind the Aegis]

31. The post itself,

particularly the false and faulty conclusion you made. But, as I said..."like clockwork."

[Violet_Crumble]

34. There was nothing false or faulty about it...

Nor was there anything nonsensical...

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Your opinion...I do not share it. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I worked that one out already n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

37. One never knows...so i was being thorough. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

38. That's so very thoughtful and thorough of you n/t

Got rid of the question I asked as there's some things where it's just too much of a waste of energy and time to bother with...

[newyorican]

8. Odd...

I read the entire article, and I see no statements even closely resembling, "The difference between Israel and its enemies."

Is that statement from a different article? If so, can you link to it?

[Spinoza]

9. The statement was my own opinion based

on the article. Sorry if that was misleading but no quotes were used so I thought it was obvious.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Yr statement was incorrect...

Assuming that 'enemies' meant Palestinians, of course Palestinians have been imprisoned by the PA. And before one of the *Defender Of Israel* brigade pipes up with something like: 'Yeah? And how long before they get out?', it's wise to keep in mind that the murderer in this article hasn't been sentenced yet and I'll be watching to see how many years he's sentenced to...

[newyorican]

25. hmm...

Editorializations and comments are to be saved for the Message body and must be separate and distinct from the text of the article.

[Spinoza]

27. Again, sorry if my statement was misleading.

I should have skipped a space. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

[Andromeda]

39. Oh, save it, please!

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Yeah, Newyorican should have just posted a link to the rules! n/t