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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 01:27 PM
Original message
And the world is silent
Note: This article was written in Hebrew. As the majority of us here do not speak, read, or write Hebrew well enough to understand it, I am posting a translated version from a "blog site." This is usually not allowed, but I have been given permission by a moderator to post the translated version. It is a VERY long article, translated into three parts. As per posting rules, I will post four paragraphs from the first part, but will also provide links to parts two and three. Also, the article is in an inset box. Any statements outside of the white box are those of the site's owner.

This article appeared in the Israeli paper Maariv. According to Wikipedia,
Maariv (Hebrew: מעריב, transl. evening) is a popular daily Hebrew language tabloid newspaper in Israel.

The Nimrodi family holds controlling stake in Maariv, and Yaakov Nimrodi serves as its chairman. Maariv's chief editor is Amnon Dankner.

It is considered to be giving a comparatively fair coverage of the diverse views that abound the Israeli society, by allowing journalists and guest writers from the different sides of the political and social spectrum to express the opinions side-by-side; however, on the whole, it represents mostly the secular centrists and moderate left-wingers, as these are the expressed views of its most senior writers - Amnon Dankner and Dan Margalit.


The author of the article, Ben Dror Yemini is the editor of Op-Ed, publicist, mainly on antisemitism and debunking extremists from the far right and the far left.


The English version:

Fact no. 1: Since the establishment of the State of Israel a merciless genocide is being perpetrated against Muslims and/or Arabs. Fact no. 2: The conflict in the Middle East, between Israel and the Arabs as a whole and against the Palestinians in particular, is regarded as the central conflict in the world today. Fact no. 3: According to polls carried out in the European Union, Israel holds first place as “Danger to world peace”. In Holland, for instance, 74% of the population holds this view. Not Iran. Not North Korea. Israel.

Connecting between these findings creates one of the biggest deceptions of modern times: Israel is regarded as the country responsible for every calamity, misfortune and hardship. It is a danger to world peace, not just to the Arab or Muslim world.

How the deception works

The finger is pointed cleverly. It’s difficult to blame Israel for the genocide in Sudan or for the civil war in Algeria. How is it done? Dozens of publications, articles, books, periodicals and websites are dedicated to one purpose only: Turning Israel into a state that ceaselessly perpetrates war crimes. In Jakarta and in Khartoum they burn the Israeli flag, and in London, in Oslo and in Zurich hate articles are published, supporting the destruction of Israel.

Any request in Internet search engines for the words “genocide” against “Muslims”, “Arabs” or “Palestinians”, in the context of “Zionists” or “Israel” – will give us endless results. Even after we’ve filtered out the trash, we are left with millions of publications written in deadly seriousness.

This abundance brings results. It works like brainwashing. It is the accepted position, and not just a fringe opinion. Only five years ago we were witness to a international anti-Israeli show in the Durban Convention. Only two years ago we were shocked when a member of our Academia blamed Israel of ‘symbolic genocide’ against the Palestinian people. Much ado about nothing. There are thousands of publications blaming Israel of genocide, and not ‘symbolic’.

part #1
part #2
part #3

The Hebrew version (forgive the formatting, the DU system isn't playing along. :)):

עובדה מספר 1: מאז הקמת מדינת ישראל מתבצע ג'נוסייד חסר רחמים במוסלמים ו/או בערבים. עובדה מספר 2: הסכסוך במזרח התיכון, בין ישראל לערבים בכלל ולפלשתינים בפרט, נחשב לסכסוך המרכזי בעולם היום. עובדה מספר 3: לפי סקרים שנערכו באיחוד האירופי, ישראל תופסת את המקום הראשון כ"סכנה לשלום העולם". בהולנד, למשל, סוברים כך 74 אחוז מהאוכלוסייה. לא איראן. לא צפון-קוריאה. ישראל. החיבור בין הממצאים הללו יוצר את אחת ההונאות הגדולות ביותר של העת החדשה: ישראל נתפסת כמדינה האחראית לכל שבר, צרה ומצוקה. היא סכנה לשלום העולם, לא רק העולם הערבי או המוסלמי.

הפניית האצבע המאשימה מתבצעת בצורה מתחכמת. הרי קשה להאשים את ישראל בג'נוסייד בסודן או במלחמת האזרחים באלג'יריה. כיצד זה נעשה? עשרות פרסומים, מאמרים, ספרים, כתבי עת ואתרי אינטרנט מוקדשים למטרה אחת בלבד: הפיכת ישראל למדינה המבצעת פשעי מלחמה ללא הפסקה.

בג'קרטה ובחרטום שורפים את דגלי ישראל, ובלונדון, באוסלו ובציריך מתפרסמים מאמרי שטנה התומכים בחיסול ישראל. כל שיטוט במנועי החיפוש באינטרנט שיתבקש לתת תוצאות למילים "ג'נוסייד" נגד "מוסלמים", "ערבים" או "פלשתינים", בהקשר של "ציונים" או "ישראל" - יעניק לנו אינסוף תוצאות. גם אם נסנן את פרסומי הזבל, נישאר עם מיליוני פרסומים שנכתבים ברצינות תהומית.

השפע האדיר נותן תוצאות. הוא פועל כמו שטיפת מוח. זו העמדה המקובלת, ולא רק
בשוליים. רק לפני חמש שנים חזינו במופע בינלאומי מזוקק נגד ישראל בוועידת דרבן. רק לפני שנתיים נרעשנו כאשר איש אקדמיה מתוכנו האשים את ישראל ב"ג'נוסייד סמלי" נגד העם הפלשתיני. מהומה על לא מאומה. יש אלפי פרסומים שמאשימים את ישראל בג'נוסייד, ולא סמלי. בחסות מטרייה אקדמית ו/או עיתונאית מושווית ישראל של היום לגרמניה הארורה של פעם.

מעריב
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. The real heart of the piece seems to be the following paragraph:
In endless publications, books, periodicals and websites Israel is portrayed as a state that perpetrates “war crimes”, “ethnic cleansing”, and “systematic murder”. Sometimes it is because this is fashionable, sometimes it is mistakenly, sometimes it is the result of hypocrisy and double standards. Sometimes it is new and old anti-Semitism, from the left and from the right, overt and covert. Most of the classic blood libels were refuted not long after they came into being. The blood libel of modern times, against the state of Israel, continues to grow. Many Israelis and Jews are accessories to the nurturing of the libel.


  The author of the piece lists the following possible reasons why Israel would be described as guilty of war crimes, ethnic cleansing and/or systematic murder (individually and lumped together, described as "...the great deception..."):

:graybox: It's fashionable
:graybox: It's the result of hypocrisy and double standards
:graybox: It's the result of anti-Semitism

  This is a false-choice logical fallacy. There is another option, one puzzlingly-absent from Mr. Yemini's list of possible causes:

:bluebox: That the government of Israel has committed war crimes, been guilty of ethnic cleansing and systematic murder. That critics, both Jew and Gentile, may intend to levy honest criticisms against a Government not libel a People, as the author asserts. That criticism of the Israeli government does not indicate a desire to see it destroyed.

  I would briefly like to draw attention to this, his last sentence in that paragraph:
"Many Israelis and Jews are accessories to the nurturing of the libel."

  His inculcation of Jews who criticize Israel as "...accessories to the nurturing of the libel" after a prior sentence which identifies the libel specifically as "blood libel" is anti-Semitic.

  Who proclaims him adjudicator of who is or is not a self-loathing Jew? Outside of those who take pains to propagate his commentary, anyway.

  The remainder of part 1 and the entirety of parts 2 and 3 are his reflections on the historical bullet points of the Israeli-Arab conflict as well as other wars and genocides and whose commentary continually plead that Israel's crimes are no greater than other nations in other well-known conflicts. Certainly a valid point. A sentence or two would have done, but that doesn't sell papers like serialized commentary.

  Since I have the conch for the moment, I'd like to point out what I think the "greatest deception" is: That a people and a religion would be co-opted and conflated with the machinations of a secular government and that those same people, if critics of that government, would be considered enemies of the people or religion to which they belong. It's an atrocity.

PB
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nice try . . Boll Blind.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 03:46 PM by msmcghee
The article contains a sobering and serious premise . . that those who claim that Israel is guilty of genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and/or systematic murder . . are willfully closing their eyes to the reality.

Reality is sometimes not so pleasant . . as when it disputes one's favorite ideology. When that happens people will go to any lengths to refute it . . as you have here.

Unfortunately, facts such as those presented here are not subject to anyone's spin.

And the reality that you close your eyes to is the continuing real genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and/or systematic murder that goes on year after year . . of Arabs / Muslims against Arabs / Muslims.

But nary a tear shall be shed on this forum for those millions of dead women, children and old people. Talking about that would only show that Israel's defensive war has cost far fewer Palestinian deaths over all the last sixty years (app. 5,500) than even some of the more modest Arab singular efforts - such as King Hussein's killing of 10,000 to 25,000 Palestinains in Jordan.

Let's hear some more reasons now why Israel is the world's greatest murderer of Arabs, Muslims and especially Palestinians.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It's "Poll-Blind", thank you.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 04:23 PM by Poll_Blind
  Instead of attempting to counter those allegations you merely point elsewhere so as the scale of the Israeli government's criminal actions are reduced in juxtaposition.

  Where is the maturity, nobility of thought or belief in ethical responsibility in that?

  Distinctly, you make a point of indicating that the "you close your eyes to is the continuing real genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and/or systematic murder that goes on year after year . . of Arabs / Muslims against Arabs / Muslims."

  That's a non-sequitur. What do other, unrelated, crimes have to do with Israel's crimes? I am not focusing enough on other crimes so as to earn the right, by your reckoning, to legitimately criticize Israel? Well, how about the fact that I pay for them. I don't pay for the other genocides as a U.S. taxpayer nearly so much as I do when my country continually gives billions in weapons, weapons technology, intelligence, political backing to Israel's conservative government.

  Should a pro-Darfur genocide Lobby rear its ugly head and receive heavy financing from the United States government, you will see outcry against that too.

  Your last sentence explains a great deal about your point of view: You appear incapable of a distinction between criticism of Israel and an out-and-out call for the destruction of the Jewish people. That attitude will haunt you and inflect your actions forever. It will do nothing to bring anything, much less Progressive or Liberal ideology, into the Israeli government. Furthermore, I arguably believe that you carry out this same brand of ideological Inquisition on Liberal or Progressive Jews who speak out in the Diaspora or in Israel.

  You can't have a killing field for thoughts. Or I should say, you may: But only in your own mind. The desire to extend the dimensions of that dreadful patch, regardless of the depths to which you will stoop to extend it, is futile: The Gentiles and Jews who work to for Peace and a cessation of criminal behavior on both sides will continue.

  Your lack of participation in this process is saddening but hopefully only temporary.

PB
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I would simply point out . .
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 07:03 PM by msmcghee
. . that you missed the whole point of the article - probably because the point being made was not a comfortable one for you to concede. Behind-the-Aegis however said it much better than I. Go back and read his post again (#4).

There is a continuing state of killing of Muslims and Arabs going on in the world in very large numbers. Because some people are so anxious to condemn Israel - the vast majority of that killing is going un-noticed in the West.

It's time to examine the costs of this deception - for the sake of the majority of peaceful Muslims and Arabs in the world. No-one is trying to exonerate Israel for wrongs committed.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I think you missed the point of that paragraph.
If it stood alone, you might have a salient argument. However, you left off the very beginning of that paragraph, which states: "This great deception, that covers up the real facts, endures and even grows because of one reason only: The Media and Academia in the West participate in it." The 'great deception' he is speaking of is "...Israel is regarded as the country responsible for every calamity, misfortune and hardship. It is a danger to world peace, not just to the Arab or Muslim world." It is that 'great deception' of which he speaks and is largely due to the reasons he listed.

His inculcation of Jews who criticize Israel as "...accessories to the nurturing of the libel" after a prior sentence which identifies the libel specifically as "blood libel" is anti-Semitic.


That statement is not anti-Semitic. If a Jewish person repeats, perpetuates, or otherwise supports anti-Semitic rhetoric, they are in fact anti-Semitic! To state that fact is not anti-Semitic.

Who proclaims him adjudicator of who is or is not a self-loathing Jew? Outside of those who take pains to propagate his commentary, anyway.


Your not-so-clever dig at me withstanding: Who proclaimed you as "adjudicator of who is or is not a self-loathing Jew? I find you making that statement very hypocritical since you insinuate the author as a "self-loathing Jew." Why do non-Jews get to determine who is and isn't anti-Semetic, including Jews, but if a Jew declares another Jew anti-Semetic it is nothing more than "grist for the mill?" The very notion that some hold that Jews somehow cannot be anti-Semitic is absurd.

The remainder of the article is how you state. So, since this isn't a publication, nor is the intention to "sell" papers; here are the last parts in summary form:

  1. Number of Arabs killed in the framework of Israeli-Arab conflicts since the creation of Israel (including in the 1948 war for Israel’s independence, all the wars fought between Israel and its neighbors, and the occupation of Palestinians): 60,000.

  2. Number of Algerian Muslims killed by the French in the 1950’s Algerian war for Independence: Between 500,000 to 1 million.

  3. Number of Muslims killed by other Muslims in the 1990’s Algerian civil war: 100,000.

  4. Number of people, including some Muslims, killed by Muslims in Sudan between 1955 and today: 2.6 million- 3 million.

  5. Number of Muslims killed by the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980’s: at least 1 million

  6. Number of Muslims killed by other Muslims in the Afghan civil war of the 1980’s-90’s: 1 million

  7. Number of Muslims killed by the Americans in efforts to overthrow the Taliban: less than 10,000.

  8. Number of Muslims killed by other Muslims since 1977 in Somalia’s civil war: Between 400,000- 550,000.

  9. Number of Muslims in Bangladesh killed by other Muslims from Pakistan since 1977: 1.4 million-2 million

  10. Number of Muslims killed by other Muslims in Indonesia since 1965: at least 400,000.

  11. Number of Muslims in East Timor killed between 1975-1999 by Muslims from Indonesia: 100,000 - 200,000

  12. Number of Muslims killed in Iraq by other Muslims (mostly those in the regime of Saddam Hussein): 1.54 million- 2 million

  13. Number of Iranian Muslims killed in their war with Iraq: 450,000 - 970,000

  14. Number of Lebanese killed by Israelis between 1975-1990: up to 18,000 (this number is included in the first statistic given several lines up, about Arab deaths at Israel’s hands)

  15. Number of Lebanese killed by other Lebanese or by Syrians between 1975-1990: at least 112,000.

  16. Number of Yemenites, Egyptians, and Saudis killed in the Yemen civil war of 1962, and in the Yemen riots of 1984-1986: 100,000 - 150,000

  17. Number of Chechen Muslims killed by the Russians since 1992: 80,000- 300,000

  18. Number of Arabs and Muslims killed in Jordan (includes at least a few thousand Palestinians), Chad, Yugoslavia, Tajikistan, Syria, Iran, Turkey, and Zanzibar in the course of smaller conflicts in the 1970’s, 80’s, and 90’s: at least 150,000.


Personally, I feel you missed the point of the piece: a great massacre of Arabs and Muslims is taking place and the world sits quietly by, saying and doing next to nothing, unless Israel is involved, then the criticisms don't ever stop, including the over-the-top and anti-Semitic ones. It is getting to the point now that even events where Israel is not involved, some will go to great lengths to link Israel and/or the Jews to it. THAT, PB, is the "great deception!"



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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The concept that Israel is behind "every calamity, misfortune and..."
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 04:27 PM by Poll_Blind
..."...hardship" is absurd in the extreme. You list 18 instances of atrocities. Where are the accusations for each of these 18 events, from "The Media and Academia", that Israel was behind it?

  What are the names of these organizations?

  Where are the Jews who agree with these connections? What are their names?

  Both the author and yourself indicate there is nothing short of a cabal among mainstream media and academia to tie these and other things to Israel. Present that evidence.

  Because conceptualizing criticism of Israel wildly outside of the scope of that criticism...and to include such hyperbole as "Israel is regarded as the country responsible for every calamity, misfortune and hardship." (presumably in the Middle East) begs some factual support.

  And while the author has a circumloqutious method of determining anti-Semitism, himself, mine is much simpler. He accuses certain Jews of propagating blood-libel because of criticism of the Israeli government. His may be correct, but requires a great deal agreement on interpretation to do so.

PB
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Non-plussed.
I can't figure out if you didn't understand the article, are trying to be intellectually dishonest, something else, or a combination thereof. The concept that Israel "is behind "every calamity, misfortune and hardship" is hyperbolic, but as his opening paragraph, it is not as uncommon in the minds of a great many people.

"Both the author and yourself indicate there is nothing short of a cabal among mainstream media and academia to tie these and other things to Israel. Present that evidence."


The author did nothing of the sort, and actually, neither did I. My concluding paragraph was very clear, that the world makes little or no mention of atrocities against Muslims or Arabs unless Israel is some how involved. I finish with the fact that others will even try to link Israel or Jews to things not even involving them (see the latest pronouncement about Jews and Israel and how they are behind the troubles in Dafur per the president of that country).

The list was to simplify the last of link #1, and pages #2 and #3. I did not, nor did the author, claim that those instances are the ones being tied to Israel, although #4, about the Sudan, is now being tied to Jews and Israel. You created nothing more than a very weak strawman.

"He accuses certain Jews of propagating blood-libel because of criticism of the Israeli government."


He does not do this. He clearly states: "The blood libel of modern times, against the state of Israel, continues to grow. Many Israelis and Jews are accessories to the nurturing of the libel." He is talking about the 'over-the-top' criticisms, which he labels as 'modern blood libel.' You are the one drawing the conclusion that the author is saying that any criticism of Israel is 'modern blood libel,' which was not said! It seems the only person having a difficult time understanding the nature of what anti-Semitism is and isn't is you. However, you have gone to considerable lengths to imply that the two Jews here (the author and myself) don't really know what it is (or isn't). I find that disgusting and patronizing!

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow, thanks for posting this.
I am stunned at the numbers presented here. I always thought there was a huge story not being told. Finally, someone is telling it. It is revealing that it had to be translated from Hebrew before we could read it. Thanks again.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. There is a bit of a red herring involved
In the sense that a lot of bad elsewhere doesn't excuse any bad which goes on in the I/P situation. However, the point that the amount of focus is inordinate considering what is going on elsewhere is valid. The reasoning why it happens is something which cannot be distilled down to one or two ideas such as anti-Semitism though some of it is due to that. The amount of cultural awareness in the West of the Palestine area as a result of Judeo-Christianity is tremendous and cannot be discounted - the area is familiar to us, we don't have to work to see things elsewhere.

Maariv is more or less a secular newspaper which for the most part has a leftist bent though they do publish commentaries from all side of the political spectrum.

L-

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The author stated more than once that . .
. . a lot of bad elsewhere doesn't excuse any bad which goes on in the I/P situation - or words to that effect.

I also said something along those lines in my post. So the herring isn't quite as red as you claim.

L: "The reasoning why it happens is something which cannot be distilled down to one or two ideas such as anti-Semitism though some of it is due to that."

Its cause can be distilled down to beliefs in the minds of Westerners and the Western press - regarding Israel - and regarding Arab / Muslim society.

Many of those beliefs are irrational. That was the author's point. He specifically focused on a particular subset of those irrational beliefs. Many of those beliefs are expressed in this forum every day.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Nonetheless there is a little bit there
And while he talked about it, he didn't separate it all that much. However, given his audience which was primarily Israeli, he was not considering the outside viewpoint which is where most of this comes into play.

That said, I sort of wish he had talked about other crises outside of the Islamic world. Again, I understand his intent to talk to a specific audience, but it would have been better to have brought in such hotspots as the Congo, Angola, Sri Lanka, Burma where there are major ongoing issues.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. He wasn't considering the outside viewpoint?
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 11:49 PM by msmcghee
Did we read the same article? It was the outside viewpoint that I thought his article was about.

L: - " . . but it would have been better to have brought in such hotspots as the Congo, Angola, Sri Lanka, . ."

But, I thought his point was the difference between the treatment the press (and its readership) gives a child killed by crossfire when the IDF is trying to capture a terrorist - and the thousands or even millions of deaths of Arabs / Muslims by Arabs / Muslims. How would deaths in Congo, Angola, Sri Lanka be relevant to his premise? It wouldn't. It would have detracted from his point.

Predictably, that's what some in this thread are now engaged in.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There is also the consideration that Israel's actions are usually seen
as US policy, because of US funding of these atrocities.

So for example, the hundreds of thousands of cluster bomblets that now litter Lebanon, all of which came from the United States, were paid for with US money, is part of US policy, as much as Israeli policy. So that might be another reason that many US citizens see this as a very important issue, we do feel a special responsibility to make this right, to say very loudly and often and without apology that those bombs don't speak for us.

That might be the reason that many US citizens spoke out against US-sponsored atrocities in Guatemala, El Salvador, and the rest of Central America, not as Reagan and the rest of the Right-wing nut-jobs suggested that we were "anti-American", but it just seemed reasonable to say no to what often amounted to wholesale genocide.

Yet those in power continue to hide behind others. Bush suggests those who want a change in policy in Iraq want to dishonor the troops, or that you support attacks on US civilians. So as they present it, you either support your neighbor sent to fight in Iraq by supporting US policy, or you support more attacks on US citizens. A false choice. Those who support Israeli policy wish to make it seem that you either support Israel policies or you oppose Jewish people. Another absurd way of looking at the world.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. to ignore the jewish connection is absurd as well....
Those who support Israeli policy wish to make it seem that you either support Israel policies or you oppose Jewish people.

Much of israeli policy is based on the history of the jewish people as well as the present attitude toward jews throughout the world. To pretend that it doesnt exist is either being totally ignorent of what it means to be a jewish israeli or to be willfully ignorent of it and pretend its not a factor.

either way, those who believe such things have little understanding of what concerns israeli jews and consequently have no chance of understanding the dynamics of the middle east ( and having any kind of positive influence as well)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Much of Israeli policy is based on the history of the Jewish people??
Can you explain how these policies are based on the history of the Jewish people?

1. The law against Palestinian spouses of Israelis getting Israeli citizenship

2. The now outlawed use of Palestinian civilians as human-shields

3. Destroying the family homes of suicide bombers

4. Detaining and holding Palestinian children without charge


I'm aware that where the history of the Jewish people affects Israeli policy is when Israel reacts to threats or attacks, it does so sometimes in an out of proportion way because there's a deep set and understandable but not justifiable fear that not to react invites Holocaust II. And those who see the world through that lens and start seeing an oncoming Holocaust under every stone are the ones who aren't willing or capable of understanding the dynamics of the Middle East or contributing in any positive way to anything much at all as to have such a pessimistic view of the rest of the world means that they have to live in a constant state of wanting conflict in order to fuel their fears...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. your question shows, that you do not understand israeli culture....
Edited on Wed Sep-27-06 09:09 AM by pelsar
perhaps its because you dont live in israel, dont meet the people.....

You mention that you are "aware" where the history ....affects israeli policy when israel reacts to threats or attacks...Frankly if thats what you believe than your understanding of how jewish history affects israeli politics and culture isnt very good.

Trying to understand a culture via "cyberspace" doesnt work.....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I need to point out something here...
Edited on Wed Sep-27-06 03:47 PM by Violet_Crumble
You have no knowledge about what other DUers know or don't know or how they've gained their knowledge, pelsar. So please stop informing anyone you disagree with that they don't understand, lack knowledge, etc, and admit that none of those things I listed have anything at all to do with being based on the history of the Jewish people...

Now for the Egg On Face moment:

You mention that you are "aware" where the history ....affects israeli policy when israel reacts to threats or attacks...Frankly if thats what you believe than your understanding of how jewish history affects israeli politics and culture isnt very good.

Interesting. I gained that bit of understanding directly from page 204 of Walter Lacqueur's 'The Terrible Secret'. Don't believe me? I have the book and I can give you the exact paragraph where he gives that belief. Feel free to let me know and I'll post it for you :)

About Walter Laqueur from Wiki:

Walter Zeev Laqueur (born 26 May 1921) is an American historian and political commentator.

He was born in Breslau, Germany (modern Wrocław, Poland) to a Jewish family. In 1937 Laqueur left Germany for the British Mandate of Palestine. His parents who chose to remain, died in the Holocaust. He lived in Palestine/Israel 1938-53 and since then in the UK and USA.

He was Director of the Institute of Contemporary History and the Wiener Library in London 1965-1994. He was founder and editor with George Mosse, of the Journal of Contemporary History and of Survey 1956-1964. He was founding editor of the The Washington Papers. From 1969 he was member, later Chairman (until 2000) International Research Council CSIS Washington. He was Professor of History of Ideas at Brandeis University 1968-1972, University Professor at Georgetown University 1976-1988. He has been visiting professor of history and government at Harvard, Chicago, Tel Aviv and Johns Hopkins.

His main works deal with European history in the 19th and 20th century, especially the Russian history , German history and the Middle East. He written on many topics from the German Youth Movement, Zionism, Israeli history, the cultural history of the Weimar Republic and Russia, Communism, the Holocaust, fascism and diplomatic history of the Cold War. His books have been translated into many languages and he was one of the founders of the study of political violence, guerrilla warfare and terrorism. His comments on international affairs have appeared in many American and European newspapers and periodicals.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Laqueur

So, tell me all about how Laqueur's understanding of how Jewish history affects Israeli politics and culture isn't very good and how surely he hasn't lived in Israel and didn't meet the people and how he's trying to understand a culture via cyberspace ;)



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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Here's the question you didn't answer, pelsar...
Can you explain how these policies are based on the history of the Jewish people?

1. The law against Palestinian spouses of Israelis getting Israeli citizenship

2. The now outlawed use of Palestinian civilians as human-shields

3. Destroying the family homes of suicide bombers

4. Detaining and holding Palestinian children without charge


You asked in another thread for me to point this one out, so here it is...
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. The author did not provide specific reasons
"So why is the impression of the world the direct opposite? How come there is no connection between the facts and the numbers and the so very demonic image of Israel in the world?

There are many answers. One of them is that western ethics have become the ethics of television cameras....."

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