Israel Factor Rises For Democrats

[Herschel]

cut

Lieberman seized his opportunity when a reporter overheard Dean's comment to a supporter at a Santa Fe, N.M. rally. "I don't find it convenient to blame people. Nobody should have violence, ever. But they do, and it's not our place to take sides," Dean said.

Lieberman was soon chiding Dean at a debate.

"Howard Dean's statements break a 50-year record in which presidents, Republican and Democratic, members of Congress of both parties, have supported our relationship with Israel, based on shared values," he said.

cut

Other candidates also weighed in on the debate, while some in Congress criticized Dean's calls for an "even-handed" approach to the Middle East.

"If the President were to make a remark such as this it would throw an already volatile region into even more turmoil," said Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), who probably has had the most contentious relationship with Dean.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://www.jewishtimes.com/News/3337.stm


Howard Dean made a gave error with his ill-advised comments on Israel. It appears he now understands support for Israel is required to win the Democratic nomination. Talk of not taking sides would doom him.

[Darranar]

1. DON'T TAKE SIDES, FOR GOODNESS SAKE!

Great. Another waffler on Israel. And I was thinking of donating to Dean's campaign, too...

KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT!

[Herschel]

4. Where is Kucinich

in the polls? I think you know the answer.

[Darranar]

6. I don't care...

where he is in the polls. He has my wholehearted support.

Kucinich is the only candidate with a real and courageous view on the I/P conflict.

As a proud "flaming leftist" and "leftist retard" I throw my support behind him, however futile it may be.

[Jim Sagle]

11. DK took sides with a vengeance.

Why is it OK for him to speak before CAIR when it's so bad for other candidates to speak before AIPAC?

Sauce for the goose, and all that.

[Darranar]

15. I don't care if they speak before AIPAC...

it's what they say that matters to me. DK has yet to say something since he announced his candidacy that I disagree with.

[LastDemInIdaho]

18. The side of those that don't target innocents

Is not one to be taken
It is to be given by trust

He or She that gives us trust for president!

[Herschel]

19. Indeed my friend

Backing Israel is moral.

[Darranar]

23. Which side is that?

:shrug:

Both sides seem to be targeting innocents to me with unjust collective punishment. The only difference is their methods.

[Herschel]

24. Little Israel does not target innocents

There is no collective punishment. You know that.

[Darranar]

26. I do?

So the wall isn't collective punishment.

The attacks on Hamas militants aren't collective punishment when they wound and/or kill innocent people.

The settlements aren't collective punishment.

The occupation isn't collective punishment.

sarcasm ended.

:eyes::eyes::eyes:

[whirlygigspin]

30. no collective punishment

what do you call blowing up houses just because
they are related to a terrorist?

Lies, lies, lies.

[Gimel]

58. Are you saying

G-d forbid, that all in the Administered Territories are terrorists? Is that why you call it collective punishment?


On edit: I'm speaking of blowing up terrorists houses, that is.

[tinnypriv]

60. What's with the "little Israel" nonsense?

"The most powerful force in the Middle East" = Little Israel?

Oh right. In that case, I could kick the 101st airbornes ass. :crazy:

[cherryperry]

67. My take:

perhaps he was referring to the size of Israel vs. the other Arab states. Therefore, little Israel needs all the weapons it can get as each new wave of attacks has come upon it since at least May 14, 1948.

[tinnypriv]

70. Yeah, I've seen the map

This the one? :eyes:

For accuracy, the term used should be "Little Strong Israel".

Of course, "pro-Israel" hawks always drop the "strong" part. No doubt because they want to perpetuate the David and Goliath myth and deflect attention away from the fact that Israel is massively powerful in the Middle East.

So, use "Little Israel" if you like, but don't expect to be taken seriously. That kind of thing is laughed at by Israeli military analysts, and rightly so.

[quilp]

103. They may not "target" them, but they very efficiently kill them anyway!

One side "targets" civilians. The other side just doesn't care. Al Capone didn't care either. Looks to me like a distinction without a difference. And what do you call destroying a whole appartment block because one apartment "harbored a suicide bomber"? Isn't that "collective punishment"? What is walling in an entire population if it isn't "collective punishment'?

[Equinox]

86. Darranar,

I'm for Kucinich too, but he won't win, because he won't compromise his integrity.

Only an asshole will win the presidency.

[Darranar]

93. I know...

but I fight for his victory anyway.

[Jim Sagle]

111. You're just trying to cheer us all up.

[Equinox]

137. Well I'm glad to give you a chuckle Jim.

Well...no..not really.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EagleEye]

3. Dean has not backed down from that.

He repeated that the US has to be trusted by bith sides or we cannot negotiate. Carter agreed with Dean. Blind, unquestioning support of any ally can be dangerous.

[Herschel]

7. There has been clarifacation from Deans' people

"Answering a question in the backyard is not a way to explain Israel policy," said Steve Grossman, a former president of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the pro-Israel lobby, who is a close adviser to Dean.

"There will be no light" between Israel and the United States in a Dean administration, he said.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

9. Please!

I made no such comment. Passionate support for little Israel runs througout the Democratic party. Support for her is a requirement for the nomination.

[Darranar]

10. It is?

Seeing that the vast majority of posters here do not possess "passionate support" of Israel, I have sincere doubts that the electorate supports Israel with such strength.

[Jim Sagle]

12. I/P isn't even a pimple on DU's ass. It's a VERY small sample.

[Darranar]

16. DU is clearly Pro-Palestinian...

and I do think that most registered Democrats have great sympathy for the Palestinians.

[Jim Sagle]

27. Really? Out of 30,000 DUers, about 50 Palestine Firsters

hang out in I/P just doin' their thing 24x7. Hardly a smashing mandate for the Dems to make a hard east turn.

And in case you and they don't know it, for MANY MILLIONS of Dems support of Israel - on SOME level - is NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT NEGOTIABLE. NOT. ONE. FUCKING. IOTA.

And that means hairballs like DK and Sharp Al are ABSOLUTE DEAL-BREAKERS.

Dean adjusted his position from Gore-like to Clinton-like, and that's OK with me, and (I suspect) with most other Israel supporters. Dean was zapped for the word "even-handed", which probably brought up scary images of the President who first used it in that context - Richard Milhous Nixon. Dean made cosmetic adjustments and now he's fine. (YMMV.)

[Darranar]

28. Actually...

I think if you did a poll you would see about 21,000 so-called "Palestine Firsters" to 4,000 or so non-Palestine firsters.

And I have yet to see how DK's position on this issue is so bad.

[cherryperry]

31. If, and I stress, If that is true, then that would simply be

another tyranny of the majority (courtesy to Lani Guinier).

[Darranar]

32. My point is...

that Herschel is right - if someone doesn't support Israel, they have little chance - but for the wrong reasons. i don't think it has so much to do with the voters.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Tyranny of the majority?

Why is it so terrible for people to actually give a shit about the Palestinian people and care about the shitty way they're being treated under an illegal occupation? I'm guessing that the vast majority of 'pro-palestinians' at DU and in the US support the continued existance of Israel, a state for the Palestinians, dismantlement of the settlements, and an end to the suicide bombings. So what exactly makes that a tyranny? I thought that was a stance liberals would take on that issue, and I don't get how anyone could say with a straight face that they're a liberal if they don't hold that stance...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. As a pro-Israel poster

I all-but agree with your list of "continued existance of Israel, a state for the Palestinians, dismantlement of the settlements, and an end to the suicide bombings." I don't think all of the settlements will be or need to be dismantled. But other than that, the problem is how to reach that goal. We have two groups at war with each other. It ain't easy.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. I know where you and I disagree, Muddle...

I already knew we agreed on those things I mentioned, but unfortunately there's others in this forum who don't. Our disagreement is on what's the best way to obtain them :)

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

62. A Small Point, Ma'am

Among the members of "Yeam Palestine" here, and certainly in the totality of radical left supporters of Arab Palestine beyond this place, there is certainly a vociferous claque that does not agree Israel should continue in existance. This is not always stated openly, but, rather as "tough on crime" and "law and order" serve reactionary politicos here as coded appeals to racial prejudice, a set of coded positions is employed to convey the meaning. One of these is "one state", and another is "return of all refugees". Both these things are tantamount to the destruction of Israel, and those who cry them up as solutions to the current conflict, or as things that must feature in any solution to it, are fully aware of that.

[cherryperry]

65. Apologies, The Magistrate,

for not registering my happiness and relief at finding you still here (as well as Muddle)! You must have a cast-iron stomach...God bless you...

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Sorry, but I think yr wrong on that...

Because I don't believe for a second that an Israel where there isn't an insistance that one ethnic/religious group MUST be in the majority in order for that group to be protected means the destruction of Israel as a state....

So can you explain to me how anyone who's a liberal who believes in human rights can support the oppression and mistreatment of the Palestinian people? I still haven't worked that one out...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

79. Thought You Might, My Friend

It seems to me a fact both evident and unfortunate that in current conditions, and in any likely in the near future, a Jewish minority in this area will be grossly mistreated. Some might well argue turn-about is fair play, and see a rough justice in it, but that does not concern me. Israel was established so that there would be a state on this earth where state persecution of Jews was a practical impossibility, and the Jews of Israel and the world will not give this up. There is no guarantee of this besides a majority in any state with even a pretense of being a democratic polity. Therefore, any measure that will quickly place Jews in a minority position will never be accepted by Israel, and there is little doubt, in my mind at least, from the rhetoric accompanying most such proposals, that their intention is to so alter the fundamental character of Israel as to render it in effect non-existant.

Maintainance of a Jewish majority in Israel does not require, and certainly does not excuse, discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel. Nor is it even aided by maltreatment of Arab Palestinians living outside the legitimate borders of Israel. Indeed, the surest way to defuse the demographic factors many point to is to elevate the standard of living for Arab citizens of Israel, and Arab Palesinians living outside its boundaries: nothing reduces over-all birth rates like prosperity, save perhaps female literacy and economic empowerment.

In the course of generations, assuming a peace is achieved and two states come into existance, it seems to me something very like a unitary state might come about naturally. Economic cooperation would be of great beneifit to both states, and things like regional planning boards for resource utilizations, a customs union, free flow of workers, perhaps even a common currency, would likely come about. But these things are unlikely to occur until the killings are no more than grand-father's tales, and so it seems to me the best thing is to work out a pracical peace between the two parties, as they now exist, as quickly as possible, to reach that happy state as soon as may be.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. But isn't that making assumptions?

Mind you, I support a two-state solution so this is a purely academic argument. Aren't you basing yr view on the assumption that any future state of Palestine wouldn't be a democracy that ensures equal rights for all? If a state were to come about in the future, it'd happen with so much international assistance that I find that highly unlikely...

Unfortunately I agree that there'd be a fair amount of 'payback', but not because they're Jewish but because they're Israelis and it's Israel that's done so much wrong to them over the past three decades. It'd be the same no matter which state had occupied them. And it's because of that and the very clear desire of the Palestinians to have their own state that I don't support a one-state solution. Personally, I find the strong focus on Jewish/non-Jewish majorities or minorities pretty depressing stuff. I've seen some Australians take a similar interest in demographics when it comes to their claims that to allow asylum seekers into the country is to invite the destruction of the 'Australian way of life'. When it comes to persecuted minorities, I really don't believe the answer is necessarily to ensure they become a majority and then forever after live in the belief that if they're not the majority they're going to be victims of persecution. The answer is for everyone to work to fight against the persecution in the first place and to ensure that it doesn't happen...

Yr last paragraph. That's exactly how I see things eventually panning out a long, long way down the track and it's not a bad thing at all to hope for :)

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

83. Rather Than Assumptions, Ma'am

My preference would be to dub them the course my experience of life and general distaste for humans like me has taught me to expect the beast to take given half a chance. It is never safe to expect the best of people; room must always be left for a pleasant surprise.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

118. Ah...

so you're attacking ALL the Palestinians now.

[Jim Sagle]

113. Not to be tyrannical or anything, huh?

[Tinoire]

91. That's bull

Everytime a thread is posted in GD or LBN the support is clearly there for the Palestinians with the pro-Israeli posters greatly outnumbered. The truth of the matter is that only about 50 people have the stomach to post in I/P where "50 Israel Firsters" can keep a better eye on their pet topic and try to control the discussion.

[The Magistrate]

92. By My Count, Ma'am

There are not more than fifteen regulars all told down here, both sides together.

The truth is, the whole matter has real elements of side-show, exaggerated precisely because it has no real importance, intrinsic to itself.

[Tinoire]

94. lol

I think it has more the elements of a freak show than of a side show.

My main point though is that I would bet serious money that if we were to take a poll right now, in GD, the majority of DUers would express more support for the Palestinians then for the Israelis.

Everytime a thread is started in GD or LBN, people jump on it and express either their support of their sympathy for the Palestinians. As soon as those threads are moved to I/P, that's where the whole thing looks like a side show... but it's not... it's an important issue that's shunted and practically hidden in the hopes that not much attention will be paid to it- just like in politics.

There were several lively threads on this that I still have book-marked. This is no side-show and it is, IMO, the single most important issue of our times. Planes were flown into American buildings over this issue, wars are being waged and more wars are planned... This is no side show and it's a crying shame for all the innocent victims and for us that we bury the issue like this.

[The Magistrate]

96. My View, Ma'am

Is that the real thing is something of a side-show. In West Africa, in Burma, in Aceh and in Chechnya, to name just a few, far more people are subject to far greater torment and misrule. Great portions of the Moslem world are up in arms concerning the matter, but if Israel were expunged, or Palestine for that matter, it would not affect their daily lives one whit: they would still be ruled by authoritarian leaders beholden in some degree of puppetry to the capitalist powers of the West, and living in societies mired in unemployment and penury. Indeed, their rulers would have to find some other convenient scape-goat, probably a local minority, religious or ethnic, or a smaller neighbor, to distract their discontent from themselves. A great proportion of radical energy is expended on the matter in the West, though again, neither success nor defeat for their efforts would do a thing to improve the distribution of capitalist swag to those who work, nor would either diminish the prospects of reactionary political forces in their own countries. It amounts to a colossal distraction, puffed up to give people the feeling they are wrestling with something huge and important, without actually achieving a damned thing to the material good of anyone. Half the effort, devoted to campaigns against corporate coruption and globalist exploitation, or towards provision for health care, or to sensible expenditures of energy, or even to union organization, might achieve real gains.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

120. no planes for Chechnya though...

...

There are no human rights in Chechnya. One Grozny resident told me, "We don't know if we'll be alive tomorrow or even five minutes from now." Contrary to assertions by the Russian government that the situation is stabilizing ahead of the Kremlin-organized presidential election, on Oct. 5, my experience convinced me that life is not returning to normal at all.

...

Civilians continue to be the main victims of this conflict. It is possible that as many as 200,000 people have been killed in the two Russo-Chechen wars combined; 350,000 people have been displaced from their homes, many fleeing their villages after Russian soldiers conducted brutal "cleansing operations" and detained or killed villagers. I talked with internally displaced Chechens living in a camp in Ingushetia. They spoke about pressure from Russian and Ingush authorities, including threats that several camps will be closed by Oct. 1, presumably to force the internally displaced back into Chechnya in time for the presidential election.

...

I spent one night in a home on the outskirts of Grozny listening to machine-gun fire and explosions in the hills only a few miles away. I kept remembering the words of a resident, "Not a single night goes by without someone disappearing. Masked men come into homes and take people away." I wondered if I would see the morning.

On my second day, I went with guides on a tour of Grozny. I concealed a video camera and filmed the ruins of the city, taking care not to catch the attention of soldiers or police. Every building bears the marks of bullets or gaping holes from aerial bombardment. Many buildings -- including high-rise apartments that once housed ordinary families -- have been completely leveled to piles of rubble. A handful of buildings associated with oil companies are undergoing renovation. The only building in good shape is the presidential palace.

There is no running water for residents. People must buy water daily. They depend on generator power for electricity. I walked around the market, which was full of shoppers buying fruits and vegetables. This same market was attacked by Russian missiles at the beginning of the current war, killing more than 100 people. A few days after I visited the market, two Russian soldiers were killed nearby.

As we were leaving Grozny, a single shot was fired across the road behind our vehicle. My guides and I braced ourselves in anticipation of return fire, but there was no more shooting. Up the road my taxi stopped at one of the many checkpoints. Spray-painted on the concrete barrier of the road block was: "At this checkpoint I shoot without warning."

...

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/09/20/inside_the_war_in_chechnya/

[The Magistrate]

121. Russia Makes Their Own Planes, After All

Aircraft to Israel are simply a subsidy to both the U.S. Air Force, and the aerospace concerns that make the machines. The more units are sold, the lower the cost per item produced on the production line, so export sales reduce the cost to the Air Force; the money for the purchases passes through some Israel tagged bank account, directly back to the manufacturer, who disburses payroll and pays debts and takes profit off the total.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

140. I was too cryptic, what I meant was...

it's funny that there are no planes being flown into (Russian) buildings for Chechens (in response to tin's implication that the WTC was hit for the Palestinians)...

but, OT, Magistrate, :yourock:

[Jim Sagle]

122. You must be one of them Diebold voting machines.

Out of 31,000 DUers, about 29,000 clearly either don't know anything or don't care about either side, except to wish the whole region would dry up and blow away.

How many of the (ahem!) devotees of Arafat here have internet lives outside this folder? I hardly ever see any of their names elsewhere. This is supposed to be a forum for Democrats, so it's awfully generous for its owners to provide a hobby horse for a crew of gulldang furriners (that's not a real curse, lighten up, please!) who wouldn't know a Democrat from a calico cat.

We have the most knowledgeable and judicious Web presence I've ever run across trying to keep it civil and logical or at least coherent, and he gets abused more than I do even though I'm the one who deserves it. ;)

If it's this tough here in cyberspace to agree on anything, just imagine how much tougher it is in meatspace.

[DuctapeFatwa]

38. I have seen no indication that this site is in conflict with the Dem party

Because it exists to allow what is considered the "left" to vent, people who support the idea of a peaceful, stable Israel, Palestine and Middle East are permitted to vent in a tucked-away corner, and it is only fair to point out that this site, like any other site, is not under any obligation to be fair, balanced or even-handed, and whatever accountability the admins have is not to we who post here.

It is also worth pointing out that there is an abyss-level gap between most of the views expressed on this site and those expressed by the mainstream voting classes, regardless of party affiliation, the majority believe the 9-11 events were the work of evildoers who hate freedom, including Saddam Hussein, Yasser Arafat and the guy behind the counter at the Quik Trip, that the only way Americans will be safe is if we help Israel kill the Muslim terrorists who are trying to prevent the Rapture, wherein Jesus will come and hurl all the Jews into a lake of fire with the terrorists Muslims who worship a false god named Mecca or Allah or something and looks like this big black square thing, but we will prevail because there is wonder working power in the Blood of the Lamb and Christian soldiers will march onward to defend our way of life from cold blooded killers who are willing to die to keep Halliburton from having a really spectacular fourth quarter, which is why we must keep our resolve to have zero tolerance for anti-American sentiment wherever we find it.

[Darranar]

95. Clearly...

I agree with all points made.

However, my point was that most Democrats, IMO, support an evenhanded approach and don't favor Israel as much as most Democratic politicians do. DU was perhaps bad evidence to support that.

[Andromeda]

39. Come again?

DU is clearly Pro-Palestinian? Maybe 20-30 people out of 32,000 registered DU posters take a Pro-Palestinian stance. The majority of I/P forum posters, which is a small number, are ardent Palestinian supporters and outnumber the Pro-Israel supporters about 3 to 1 but you're not hearing from ALL the registered posters and certainly not the majority of people who are registered Democrats. Having sympathy with the Palestinian cause doesn't translate to firm support and the United States traditionally has supported Israel since it is the only democracy in the ME.

That doesn't mean that most people don't care about the Palestinian's plight but intentionally blowing up bus loads of children and old people is the not the right way to get the kind of attention you want. If they don't want retaliation from Israel maybe they need to take a closer look at the kind of behavior that is causing it.

The problem is that Palestinians are poor, uneducated, over-populated and generally hopeless because their own leaders have done a lousy job of taking care of their needs. It's easier for the PLO to blame Israel than it is for them to take responsibility for themselves.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Why do you guys keep ignoring Jordan?

Let's ignore the number crunching. Who really gives a shit? I know I don't.

Having sympathy with the Palestinian cause doesn't translate to firm support and the United States traditionally has supported Israel since it is the only democracy in the ME.

Sorry but Israel's not the only democracy in the Middle East, and besides, the US doesn't just 'support' a nation based on whether it's a democracy or not. The US has had a nasty habit of getting it's fingers dirty ousting democratically elected leaders in South America in the past...

The problem is that Palestinians are poor, uneducated, over-populated and generally hopeless because their own leaders have done a lousy job of taking care of their needs. It's easier for the PLO to blame Israel than it is for them to take responsibility for themselves.

Don't forget that these people just happen to have been living under an oppressive occupation for the past 35 years and despite yr protestations, Israel does bear some responsibility for the people living in the Occupied Territories. If there's over-population, then a great start to alleviating that would be for Israel to give them land back that's been stolen from them to build those illegal settlements and bypass roads...

Violet...

[cherryperry]

20. Pssssst...Darranar:

I possess passionate support of Israel, but have been so afraid of the other side because of things I will not post on this forum that I had given up on this forum. I have returned only because we have a new moderator and I see a change upon said return.

Please don't expect people who are passionately in support of Israel to voice such feelings when we have been so mercilessly attacked that we have simply given up...once again, I will try...we'll see.

Surprised? Well, there are MANY others like me @ DU!

[Darranar]

25. Unfair personal attacks against pro-Israelis do occur...

and I am saddened and offended by them. Know that I alert any such posts as soon as I see them.

Unfair personal attacks against pro-Palestinians occur as well. "Jihadofascists," anyone?

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Pssst....Cherryperry...

I don't know anything about the new mod, so would you like to fill us all in on the changes you've seen?

Unfortunately there's some sensitive poppets who make the mistake of thinking that anyone who expresses a different view than them is personally attacking them. To them I say: Get A Fucking Backbone, It's Only A Message Board On The Internet. I've been here a fair while longer than you and while you complain ONLY about personal attacks on 'pro-Israeli' posters, I know that in the time you've been here 'pro-palestinians' have been called Nazis, told to fuck off, along with a whole slew of other garden variety personal attacks. For you to try to pretend that it only happens to the side you've taken up for just isn't reflecting reality, and what you should do if it bothers you so much is try to rise above it and try discussing the issue itself and not spend so much time complaining about what yr views of other posters are. Sometimes all the bitch-fighting is kinda entertaining in a sort of juiced up Bold & The Beautiful tacky sort of way, but then again most of it isn't worth printing out and using for toilet paper....


Violet...

[cherryperry]

54. Anything you say, Ms. Crumble!

It appears that the new mod has actually read the rules; therefore, upon my return, I have seen many more deleted messages. I left this forum because of the unrelenting messages of pure hatred directed at those of us who are Pro-Israel; not to mention what I got in my PM's. No one should have to endure that. I ventured a return upon the changing of the mods and, again, the changes I have seen are the # of those type of rule-breaking but formerly simply let stand messages have pretty much been deleted. <sigh> ...so nice to have a new mod who apparently has read the rules and has the backbone to follow them! This time, I feel a tiny bit empowered and so to those of you who are going to start the PM campaign again, I say, this time each one will be c/p and sent to Admin. Last time, I simply deleted them, but was left shaken with fear and sadness (I'm certain that gave a lot of people happiness, but I want to try to make you understand me...). Thank you for reading this...

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Uh, the mods have always deleted messages, including yrs...

And to be honest, I'm not all that interested in boring stories of what people claim they get by PM. My advice is get over it. And yr claims that personal attacks are one-sided are obviously wrong to anyone who actually bothers reading the forum....

Okay, you want to use this forum for some personal gripe session generally attacking other posters who don't agree with yr views on Arabs and the I/P conflict. I'm just telling you it gets very boring after a while when someone comes to the I/P forum expecting to read I/P discussions...

Violet...

[cherryperry]

61. Yes, it does get boring!

Especially for those who wish to look at I/P in 2003 w/o any context.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Great. So we'll see you posting I/P related posts sometime soon?

Just in case yr still a tad confused, I specifically said what was boring was incessant whining about other posters in the forum, not I/P related discussions that involve some complexity and rise above the level of Good Guys vs Bad Smelly Guys...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

127. Actually the whole folder is a desert waste.

I only come here to try to even out the odds. I like hopeless causes.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. Excuse me??

Don't you dare accuse me of PMing you. My only PM interaction with you was when you sent me a slobbering ThAnK YoU FoR AgReEiNg WiTh Me PM about an abortion thread in another forum and I sent back a thanks for the thanks one. There's been nothing else and yr false claim about me sending you hate mail makes me wonder whether yr just making up a story that you've recieved any at all from anyone. Personally, I wouldn't understand why anyone would waste their keystrokes doing it...

Violet...

[Jim Sagle]

125. So who ya votin' for in the Dem primary, vc?

[Darranar]

128. I suppose you are aware that she lives in Australia?

[Jim Sagle]

144. That was my whole point. I thinking you're catching on.

[Tinoire]

145. Who are the DUers living in Israel voting for?

Assuming of course that they're dual citizens.

[Cappurr]

13. Actually you are inferrring

The other poster was implying. But there is nothing anti-semetic about recgonizing that there are powerful Jewish/Israeli interests that lobby our representatives. Ignoring that would be like ignoring the oil lobby.

The Israel/Palestinian situation is creating havoc all over the Middle East. It needs to stop. And if that means getting tough with Israel, so be it. And if that means getting tough with Arafat and his gang, so be it. People are suffering everyday there and it is being used to recruit terrorists for other causes as well. It simply needs to stop and if that sounds anti-semetic, then I think you have a tin ear.

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. Unconditional support for Israel is both Repub and Dem policy

I have to agree with Herschel. No candidate who is not 100% behind Likud has a chance.

The policy is not in the best interests of ordinary Americans, ordinary Israelis, or the long-term survival of the state of Israel, but it is in the best short term interests of the defense and energy industries, and that is just the way it is, and the way it will be until the rest of the world gets off its butt and orchestrates regime change in the US.

[Jim Sagle]

33. "No candidate who is not 100% behind Likud has a chance."

Do the names Nixon, Carter, Bush Sr. and Clinton ring a bell?

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. The Gary Bauer-approved policy on Israel goes back quite a ways

It has served the oilngun boys well, and continues to do so.

[Cassandra]

35. As usual, you're misinterpreting what Herschel said

He didn't say "No candidate who is not 100% behind Likud has a chance."
Of those of us here who vote in the US, I'd be surprised if anyone agreed with that statement. Although you just love to equate support for Israel with support for Likud, I would be happy with a general expression of support for Israel from any candidate and would prefer that they keep some distance between themselves and Sharon. I know this expression of common sense just darkens your day, but that's tough.

[DuctapeFatwa]

36. Real support for Israel would be geared toward its continued existence

That would mean disarmament, massive humanitarian aid to correct the atrocities that the Israeli government has committed against its own citizens, and equally massive affirmative action and de-Russification to try to get it closer to an actual democracy as opposed to the gunrunner paradise and weapons depot it is now.

If Israel wants to be located in the Middle East, no one who really wants it to have a future is going to encourage it to be a mafia hideout and an international pariah best known for its various means of killing children.

Israel's best chance for a future is as a responsible, respectable, law abiding member of the community of nations, with friendly, productive relations with neighbors that are not kept under the iron fists of US installed puppets for the convenience of rich western business interests.

[Cassandra]

66. To turn the tables on you...

Real support for Palestinians would be geared toward their continued existence


That would mean disarmament, massive humanitarian aid to correct the atrocities that the Palestinian government has committed against its own citizens, and equally massive affirmative action and de-Russification to try to get it close to an actual democracy as opposed to the gunrunner paradise and weapons depot it is now.

If Palestine wants to be located in the Middle East, no one who really wants it to have a future is going to encourage it to be a mafia hideout and an international pariah best known for its various means of killing children.

Palestinians' best chance for a future is as a responsible, respectable, law abiding member of the community of nations, with friendly, productive relations with neighbors that are not kept under the iron fists of corrupt terrorists for the convenience of corrupt Islamic government interests.

How does that sound? Your complete contempt for Israel shines through every time you type.

To me, support for Israel means removing many of the settlements and restraining new ones. I await Dean's clarification of what he means by being more even-handed and hope that he doesn't get pulled into supporting Sharon who, if the violence ever stops on the other side, would be gone. The support of Israel, generally, is something I expect from all Democratic candidates. That doesn't have to mean that we are glued to them, but that we are committed to Israel's success, which may mean saying no on some issues. I know you'd like to paint me as a Likudnik, but you know you'd be lying if you did.

[DuctapeFatwa]

73. Dean has reaffirmed his loyalty to the party line

Which is unconditional support and unlimited funding for Sharon's war crimes.

I have already posted my views on Yasser Arafat.At the present time, although Palestine's problems are legion, they do not include an oligarchy of Russian immigrants whose committment to equal opportunity even for non-European Jews, let alone Arabs appears to be something they prefer to keep very private, no doubt locked away in a special place.

Continued existence for both Palestine and Israel depend on both sides understanding that Right of Return is the Law, settlements are illegal, and the age of colonialism and wide acceptance of European superiority and manifest destiny are over.

Not all Israelis, even recent European immigrants, are responsible for the Naqba or the continuous atrocities since then committed against the Palestinian people.

For Israel to have a future, and be worthy of the feelings that sincere people have for it, those that are must be brought to justice, not elected to office and installed in executive offices.

Palestine has the same right to defend itself as Israel does. The right of self-defense is not a privilege to be bestowed or revoked by the United States.

Israel deserves to be something more than a glorified military base and weapons dump/fat mangy guard dog and cash cow for western gunrunners and oil barons.

While I do not "paint" or ascribe motives to individual posters, I do recognize that it is a popular practice and reserve the right to be highly amused when it is applied to me, however clumsy or inaccurate the effort, it never fails to bring a smile :)

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. You always amuse me

With your claims of right of return.

Why do you continue to beat this dead horse?

You say continued existence of Israel is dependent on this idea. Yet, the idea in and of itself would ELIMINATE the continued existence of Israel.

You give the Israelis a Catch-22. Either they will be destroyed or...they will be destroyed. I think they will choose C instead of either of those options. That means continued existence and NO right of return.

[DuctapeFatwa]

80. Rule of law is an essential ingredient for existence of any country

not just Israel. Right of Return is the law.

In my opinion, the Israeli people deserve a law-abiding country.

[Cassandra]

87. Really?

China doesn't have rule of law. Many countries' definition of the law is nothing we'd recognize as the rule of law. I notice that doesn't keep you from recognizing them as countries. The Palestinians seem to have a problem recognizing any rule of law. Does that mean that in your opinion, they're not entitled to a country?
Right of return is not the law in Israel, or don't the Israelis deserve a country in which they're allowed to write their own laws?

[DuctapeFatwa]

89. It is the policy of the sharon and bush regimes that US and Israel

are exempt from all international laws, conventions and accords.

The US regime holds other states accountable to these laws and conventions when it is in the interest of the defense and energy industries to do so.

It is not a policy that is compatible with long-term statehood for either the US or Israel or the safety and security of individuals without access to bunkers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

97. A fantasy

No nation will willingly self destruct. Right of return is a dream, not a law.

[Darranar]

98. For once, I agree with you...

I think the best (though perhaps not the most just) solution to the right of return is reperations combined with the return of all Palestinian refugees to a state of Palestine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. I concur

But that proposal needs to come from the Palestinians so THEY can fight it out. Ultimately, I think the money for such an agreement should come from both the U.S. and the Arab world. The Arab world could use it as reparations for their eviction of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

[Darranar]

101. Israel should pay the reperations...

The Jews who fled from Arab countries also deserve reperations, and from the Arab nations.

[DuctapeFatwa]

99. Self-destructing is precisely what Israel is doing

By rejecting the rule of law, and by being content to be Sugar Daddy's gunbox at the expense of its own citizens, a fifth of whom now go to bed hungry, the oilngun cartel with sharon at its helm are doing a better job of pushing Israel into the sea than the most imaginative acned jihadi ever could in his wildest and most perfumed dreams.

[Muddleoftheroad]

102. Not in the sea

And Israel won't go swimming without one hell of a fight. Since the right of return would mean destruction, Israel won't give into it.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

105. Wow, so much hate in so little space

Your viewpoint is so skewed it's almost not even worth addressing. I've rarely run into someone who hates Israel so much -- including Palestinians who I met when I was there.

Ultimately, Israel is there. If the "Pan-Arab protectorate" thinks it will decide if they stay or not, the Arabs will learn the hard way that is not the case as they have learned repeatedly before this.

[DuctapeFatwa]

106. I am reminded of the father whose son had a drug problem

The father told him, "son, either you decide to get into rehab and get yourself straightened out, or you are going to wind up either dead, in jail, or dead in jail, and there won't be a damn thing I can do to help you. Right now, all I can do to help you is give you a ride to the rehab center."

"You asshole!," the son snarled, "Why do you hate me so much?"

and stormed out into the street, slamming the door behind him.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. I am reminded of much worse

Funny, you don't sound like a loving father. You don't even seem to believe in Israel's right to exist. Fatherhood? Not likely.

[DuctapeFatwa]

109. And in the street, the son's heroin dealer was waiting...

"thank goodness you're here, man," panted the young addict.

"I need you man, I need somebody who understands what I need."

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. Left field

I think you passed left field and are in the bleachers at this point.

[The Magistrate]

117. Perhaps A Taste Of Music Would Improve The Tangent

I'm waiting for my man
Twenty-six dollars in my hand
He's never early
He's always late
First thing you learn is that you always gotta wait....

[The Magistrate]

108. It Was Quite A Screed, Sir

Its greatest charm was in revealing a sense of probabilities that would clearly repay any effort needed to get Mr. Fatwa to a poker game many times over.

[DuctapeFatwa]

110. I can't explain it, but your prose makes me want Cinnabuns

Ever tried them?

[The Magistrate]

115. You Would Probably Like Them, Sir

My own favorite in the sweeties line is Maria wafers, that can be gotten in the Mexican groceries; they are just barely sweet, and very pleasant.

Then there is "spring surprise" and "crunchy frog", when they can be got.

[DuctapeFatwa]

119. LOL demanding it be deleted does not change the reality

The current course that Israel is on is not in the interest of its continued existence or the safety and security of ordinary Israelis.

Israel cannot deploy WMD against its neighbors without deploying them against itself, and no state that blatantly disregards international law and common decency is acting in the best interests of a long term future.

Israel is completely dependent on the US, itself a suppurating lesion on the countenance of the earth, whose days are as surely limited as were those of Rome before it.

The best the US can hope for is that it will temporarily succeed in its Crusade to seize the natural resources of Israel's neighbors, at which point it will no longer need a guard dog.

The only chance of survival that Israel has is as an independent, law-abiding, respectable and responsible member of the community of nations, based on tolerance, peace and human rights, as is the case of every other nation on earth, and no amount of censorship, spin, propaganda or interpretations of ancient sacred texts can change that reality.

It is a truth that cannot be suppressed, and ignored only at the peril of those who will not hear.

[Muddleoftheroad]

123. Wrong yet again

I didn't even bother to alert about it. It was so incredible, I liked having it there with your name attached.

OK, so you hate the U.S. as well. Why not just say so?

[DuctapeFatwa]

126. So how's McDonnell-Douglas doing?

I bet that company that makes the stun guns is on fire these days...

[Muddleoftheroad]

133. What the hell

Are you talking about?

[The Magistrate]

124. You Are Rather Leaping To Conclusions There, Mr. Fatwa

Never wise, that.

Your comedy stylings will be missed.

[DuctapeFatwa]

129. I would be proud to be "banned" for saying Israel deserves better

than a putrifying gunrunner haven and criminal hideout, founded on lies, greed and Anglo-American anti-Jewishness and taking advantage of the very real religious and emotional feelings of innocent Holocaust survivors who did not move to Israel in the hopes that they could sacrifice their lives and their childrens' lives to make a handful of rich men richer.

It would be an honor to be exiled for stating that every Israeli child, Whether Muslim, Jew, Jain or Just Browsing deserves to go to bed every night with a full belly and a safe roof over his head, and be taught by a teacher who can afford to feed his own children.

If my words are to be expunged because they include the statement that peace, tolerance and the highest respect for human rights are Jewish values, I will advertise it with head held high.

I will say it again, and again, and again:

The Israeli people deserve a real state, a law-abiding state, peaceful, independent state, a responsible, respectable member of the community of nations, with friendly and productive relations with its neighbors, and nothing less.

That is my opinion, and I make no claim that it reflects the opinion of this site, the Democratic, Republican or Likud party, the signers of the PNAC documents, or the Coca-Cola company.

[The Magistrate]

130. Have You Ever Seen A Man Kick In An Un-Locked Door, Sir?

It is quite funny; a great unbalanced velocity spills itself onto the floor in bodily guise.

We are simply going to have to find some persecutors for you, if you are to maintain your balance, fellow.

[DuctapeFatwa]

131. I think you do a fine job as my persecutor, Magistrate

Perhaps it is the destiny of your burden made manifest?

[cantwealljustgetalong]

143. kicking in an unlocked door...

that was funny, and an appropriate metaphor for the occasion...

[Equinox]

138. Excellent post DuctapeFatwa!!!!!!!!!!!

You shouldn't be banned for espousing democratic or liberal values on a democratic site. I have confidence in that no matter who may try and pull strings with their "prophetic" phrases.

[Violet_Crumble]

141. What did you mean by that?

Your comedy stylings will be missed.

Are you threatening that DTF is going to be banned?


Violet...

[The Magistrate]

Certainly Not, Ma'am

That would be regretable, if it ever occurd. The reference was simply to the deleted message No. 104, which tickled me pink. It was probably not meant to do so, of course, but frequently un-intended comedic turns are the best ones.

[The Magistrate]

142. Certainly Not, Ma'am

That would be regretable, if it ever occured. The reference was simply to the deleted message No. 104, which tickled me pink. It was probably not meant to do so, of course, but frequently un-intended comedic turns are the best ones.

[Darranar]

132. Hmm...

let me see how well I do against your arguments. I disagree with you, but not totally.

The current course that Israel is on is not in the interest of its continued existence or the safety and security of ordinary Israelis.

Here we agree. However, I do not think that the existence of the state of Israel is very much in danger. Its military power (and nukes) will ensure its continued sovereignty.

Israel cannot deploy WMD against its neighbors without deploying them against itself,

I dont see why they can't. Can you clarafy this please, because I don't really understand it?

and no state that blatantly disregards international law and common decency is acting in the best interests of a long term future.

Again, we agree. However, as I said above, Israel's existence is not being threatened by anything. It isn't going to go away.

Israel is completely dependent on the US,

No, it isn't. Its military is high-tech enough that if all aid immediately stopped now, not that much would occur but increased calls from far-rightists in Israel to disregard the international community because Israel is standing alone against terrorism.

And, of course, there are Israel's nuclear weapons.

itself a suppurating lesion on the countenance of the earth, whose days are as surely limited as were those of Rome before it

Pax Americana has not yet been acheieved, and likely will never be. The US is hardly an empire like Rome in regard to occupied lands; the US's holdings outside itself are only occupied Iraq, occupied Afghanistan, and a number of islands in the Pacific.

The only way i could possibly concieve of an American empire would be economically, through corporate globalization based in the United States. Multinational corporations have yet to gain that much power, and if action is taken now or soon they never will.

The best the US can hope for is that it will temporarily succeed in its Crusade to seize the natural resources of Israel's neighbors, at which point it will no longer need a guard dog.

I'm not sure what relevance this has.

The only chance of survival that Israel has is as an independent, law-abiding, respectable and responsible member of the community of nations, based on tolerance, peace and human rights, as is the case of every other nation on earth, and no amount of censorship, spin, propaganda or interpretations of ancient sacred texts can change that reality.

This is not true. Plenty of inhumane and intolerant nations exist on Earth, and they have existed for hundreds of years. Israel is far from the worst, and nor is it in any real danger to its existence.

[DuctapeFatwa]

134. I hope I got all the italics and things right :O

Israel cannot deploy WMD against its neighbors without deploying them against itself,

Q: I dont see why they can't. Can you clarafy this please, because I don't really understand it?

A:Sure. Israel has all kinds of WMD, but they would be better suited for use against the US or Asia than its neighbors, because of simple geography.

In the post I made that was deleted, I said that sharon and his henchmen would have to go detonate the nukes remotely from Micronesia, and stay there, because the fallout from nuclear weapons so close to Israel would kill such a large number of Israelis that the button-pushers would not receive a warm welcome ;) In fact, I suggested that the survivors would tear them apart as the Romanians did Ceaucescu, which is probably why the post was deleted, as the sharon regime's arm is long...

Israel is completely dependent on the US,

Q:No, it isn't. Its military is high-tech enough that if all aid immediately stopped now, not that much would occur but increased calls from far-rightists in Israel to disregard the international community because Israel is standing alone against terrorism.

A:All the weapons it has were paid for and/or supplied by the US, which means that if at any time the US decides that it no longer needs the land currently called "Israel" as a weapons depot, it can merely repossess them, or discontinue anything that makes it possible for any civilian infrastructure to exist at all, for example, they could decide to station large numbers of troops there, effectively displacing however many Israelis they choose. Israel is for all intents and purposes, at the mercy of the US, because it has no other "friend" or any other entity to come to its aid if the US is either deposed or decides to discard it. That being said, I will add that I do not believe that the US has in any way been Israel's true friend, or it would not have done any of the things it has done to Israel since 1948.

The rightists are correct when they say that Israel stands alone, (but for the US) but it is not against terrorism that it stands alone, but against all laws, conventions and principles of civilized nations.

I already explained why Israel is not in a position to launch its nuclear weapons against its neighbors.

Q:itself a suppurating lesion on the countenance of the earth, whose days are as surely limited as were those of Rome before it

Pax Americana has not yet been acheieved, and likely will never be. The US is hardly an empire like Rome in regard to occupied lands; the US's holdings outside itself are only occupied Iraq, occupied Afghanistan, and a number of islands in the Pacific.

A:You are correct that it is unlikely that it will be. The PNAC strategies call for the occupation and seizure of natural resources throughout the Majority World, with depopulation as expedient, and it is not likely that the world will sit around with its finger in its butt waiting meekly for the bombs to fall for a long period of time.

As the notion of western superiority has declined in popularity, not just in the Majority World, but in the west itself, there is little chance that US occupation of either the Middle East or Africa will be received with any more enthusiasm than the IOF enjoys in Gaza.

At any given time, there are around 300 million people living in the US, and not all of them are regime loyalists. The population of earth is right at 6 billion.

Just as I said in the deleted post, Israel has reached the point of diminishing returns with regard to what it can do militarily, which is basically starve and shoot Palestinians and taunt Lebanon. Similarly, the US has reached the point of diminishing returns in terms of its exploitation of the rest of the world.

There are now more people in the world whose lives have been negatively impacted as a result of US actions than have benefited, just as there are more Palestinians whose lives have been negatively impacted as a result of Israeli actions, thus creating an ever-growing and massive population of individuals who no longer have anything left to lose.

This is a situation in which military might is actually more of a liability than an asset, as we have seen recently in both Palestine and Iraq: no matter how many children are dismembered and blown apart, how many doors are kicked in and grandfathers made to kneel in the dirt, no matter how many babies are starved, the US has simply not been able to stamp out anti-American sentiment, and in Palestine, no matter how many children are shot, blinded, maimed or tortured, and no matter how many women in labor bleed to death at checkpoints, Israel has been singularly unsuccessful in generating popular support for the occupation.

King Leopold had the same problem in the Congo.

The best the US can hope for is that it will temporarily succeed in its Crusade to seize the natural resources of Israel's neighbors, at which point it will no longer need a guard dog.

Q:I'm not sure what relevance this has.

While the PNAC plan does not have a good prognosis for long-term success, it is not only possible, but probable to the point of certainty that the regime will move to seize natural resources in at least a few other countries before the inevitable occurs.

Again, a point from the deleted post, even if ordered to do so by the US, Israel would not be capable of mounting a Gaza-style occupation of Iran, as an example. Nor would Israel wish to nuke Iran, for reasons listed before.

The US itself would be hard pressed to occupy both Iraq and Iran simultaneously, and add to that the struggle to maintain a secure corridor for pipeline construction in Afghanistan and the administration of operations in Africa and Latin America, (the latter employing almost all commercial troops), and you can see that at some point, an escalation of the depopulation program is imperative.

So while Israel may be constrained, for reasons of self-preservation, from using weapons of mass destruction too close to home, the US is not, and such an action would impact Israel in the same way as if Israel were to do it itself.

If at any point, the US feels, rightly or wrongly, that its military objectives no longer require a base or weapons cache in Israel, it is not reasonable to suppose that it will expend any further resources to maintain one.

The only chance of survival that Israel has is as an independent, law-abiding, respectable and responsible member of the community of nations, based on tolerance, peace and human rights, as is the case of every other nation on earth, and no amount of censorship, spin, propaganda or interpretations of ancient sacred texts can change that reality.

Q:This is not true. Plenty of inhumane and intolerant nations exist on Earth, and they have existed for hundreds of years. Israel is far from the worst, and nor is it in any real danger to its existence.

A: You are right and you are wrong. Evil empires do hang on, but they also die. They may explode, or implode, but ask any archeologist - they all die. To cite once again my deleted post, I said that when the US falls, the most likely scenario is that Israel will become a Pan-Arab protectorate, and Israelis of Middle Eastern and African origin, of all faith traditions, will be the ones to decide what is to become of the European immigrants and their descendants, and eventually those Middle Eastern and African Israelis of all faiths will govern Israel.

So AN Israel may exist, but the idea of a homeland that will welcome Europeans does not have a good outlook, due to the way the Europeans have acted there for the last fifty years.

The US will have a similar fate, the continent is slowly but inexorably being reclaimed by the indigenous people of the Americas, and as the blip that was European pre-eminence fades from the radar screen, it does give way to a stronger and more lasting beam of hope, not Utopia, but far from the basement of hell we have now, and not until we walk first through the shadow of Rwanda and Brazil, to emerge, hopefully, on the other side to greet a better day.

[Darranar]

135. You seem to have gotten them all right...

Sure. Israel has all kinds of WMD, but they would be better suited for use against the US or Asia than its neighbors, because of simple geography.

In the post I made that was deleted, I said that sharon and his henchmen would have to go detonate the nukes remotely from Micronesia, and stay there, because the fallout from nuclear weapons so close to Israel would kill such a large number of Israelis that the button-pushers would not receive a warm welcome ;) In fact, I suggested that the survivors would tear them apart as the Romanians did Ceaucescu, which is probably why the post was deleted, as the sharon regime's arm is long...

Nuclear fallout from a bomb hitting Tehran, or even Damascus, would not harm israel to so great an extent. "Lesser" WMDs, chemical or biological weapons, would have less of a fallout area.

Nuking the West Bank is another story.

A:All the weapons it has were paid for and/or supplied by the US, which means that if at any time the US decides that it no longer needs the land currently called "Israel" as a weapons depot, it can merely repossess them, or discontinue anything that makes it possible for any civilian infrastructure to exist at all, for example, they could decide to station large numbers of troops there, effectively displacing however many Israelis they choose. Israel is for all intents and purposes, at the mercy of the US, because it has no other "friend" or any other entity to come to its aid if the US is either deposed or decides to discard it. That being said, I will add that I do not believe that the US has in any way been Israel's true friend, or it would not have done any of the things it has done to Israel since 1948.

You could easily extend this to say that any nation is at the emrcy of the US. The US can forcibly station troops almost anywhere in the world. If you follow that logic, then Zimbabwe (example taken out of thin air) also depends on the US for its continued existence.

I really don't have the time for a good response to the rest of your post (I'll compose one tommorow afternoon, probably), but here's one quick point: Anti-American sentiment, like anti-Israel sentiment, doesn't challenge the US's existence or its military power.

[DuctapeFatwa]

136. this italics stuff is too much like arithmetic. I am against arithmetic.

Q:Nuclear fallout from a bomb hitting Tehran, or even Damascus, would not harm israel to so great an extent. "Lesser" WMDs, chemical or biological weapons, would have less of a fallout area.

Nuking the West Bank is another story.

A: Well, some of that we don't really know. Chem and bio weapons have not been deployed on a large scale near populated areas. The US is currently destroying a bunch of chem weapons in the SE United States, so if we see Wolf in Atlanta start to twitch, we may be on the verge of getting some more info about that.

The point I'm making is, few Israeli parents would react positively to the notion of betting their kids lives and well-being on there being no ill-effects.

Q:You could easily extend this to say that any nation is at the emrcy of the US. The US can forcibly station troops almost anywhere in the world. If you follow that logic, then Zimbabwe (example taken out of thin air) also depends on the US for its continued existence.

A:In a way, all nations are, which is precisely why I say the point of diminishing returns is reached. Nothing is so vulnerable as the fat bully surrounded by the entire student body.


I really don't have the time for a good response to the rest of your post (I'll compose one tommorow afternoon, probably), but here's one quick point: Anti-American sentiment, like anti-Israel sentiment, doesn't challenge the US's existence or its military power.

A:Yes, that is my point, while military power is not challenged, it is also counter-productive. What is endangered are not the tanks and guns, or the CEOS and generals and politicians with their bunkers and armored cars, but the ordinary people, not danger from "groups" but millions going for billions of individual ordinary people from everywhere on earth, each of whom has nothing to lose.

Once you are sure that your chances of death are equal whether you do what I say or not, I have lost a big negotiating chunk...

Can we do it without all the italics and things? They hurt my nose.

[Darranar]

146. Well, italics are helpful for me...

If you don't want to use them, don't.

The point I'm making is, few Israeli parents would react positively to the notion of betting their kids lives and well-being on there being no ill-effects.

Plenty of them seem to be supporting policies which similarly could harm their children (policies towards the Palestinians.)

Yes, that is my point, while military power is not challenged, it is also counter-productive. What is endangered are not the tanks and guns, or the CEOS and generals and politicians with their bunkers and armored cars, but the ordinary people, not danger from "groups" but millions going for billions of individual ordinary people from everywhere on earth, each of whom has nothing to lose.

However, anti-American sentiment cannot bring down an empire.

[DuctapeFatwa]

147. You yourself have said how it can!

Anti-American sentiment is not only manifested in the lone individual with a vial of something vile clutched in his hand, in fact, that is one of the least encountered manifestations, or we would all be dead.

Anti-American sentiment can also be expressed through economic choices, from institutional investments to personal purchasing decisions.

In fact, the only thing that has kept the empire afloat this long is the nearly limitless and amoral nature of human greed.

There will always be dollahos, who will be willing to do anything for money, and they will probably always outnumber those who have some limits to what horrific atrocities they are willing to overlook, finance or commit if the price is right, but the danger to the US is that there are a growing number of people worldwide who do in fact have a limit.

As to the question of how popular fallout from WMD would be with Israelis, you make a good point, like Americans there are many Israelis who do not realize that in their rage and thirst for blood and revenge, they are putting a very low value on the lives of their own children.

But I think that if Israel, for example, were to take its policy of firing missiles from helicopters into residential streets, ostensibly to "target" someone they have decided to execute without benefit of due process to a residential street in Haifa or Tel Aviv, you would find that the residents would quickly express a marked preference for launching such attacks only in "Arab" neighborhoods.

By the same token, I think that large numbers of Israeli children with mystery pneumonia and various unpleasant disease processes not acknowledged by the Pentagon would not win a positive response from parents, some of whom might go so far as to question the regime that decided that their child's suffering was "worth it" considering the greater suffering of Muslim children as a result of the same "operation."

[Darranar]

148. No boycott of American goods will ever accomplish much...

IMO. They are too well established across the world.

These nukes are going to target Arab cities, not Israeli cities. The mystery diseases that you mentioned are equivalent to suicide bombings; I doubt that many people would see the connection, or, rather, not see it as worth it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

149. Isolated consumer boycotts, no

However, over time, a transition away from the dollar, and increased utilization of non-US resources, in combination with the increased expenses to US companies of doing business in an increasingly hostile world, has the potential of taking quite a toll.

I realize I may be engaging in wishful thinking because I would prefer economic to other measures, including use of WMD against and within US cities.

The proximity of Arab cities to Israeli ones makes it a bad idea for Israel to use its biological, chemical and nuclear weapons against its neighbors, first for fallout and unpredictable unintended consequences, and second because Israel is not the sole possessor of WMD on earth, and it is not reasonable to suppose that a catastrophic strike against, for instance, Teheran, would be meekly accepted by every other nation in the world.

While you are correct that to the generals, politicians and captains of the Dyncorps and Raytheons of the world, that mystery syndromes appearing in thousands or millions of Israeli children would not be a matter of concern, I do not think that the chances are good that the parents would share that indifference, and Israel might find itself in the position of having to put large numbers of its own citizens in "administrative detention" if they persisted in their second-guessing of the IDF's decisions.

[Darranar]

150. There's a little thing known as globalization...

and I think that it's growing, not falling back.

As for your last point, it is a question that will not have an answer until such an event occurs.

[DuctapeFatwa]

151. I call it neo-feudalism, and it presents a danger to most of earth

The effects of neo-feudalism on people all over the world only increase the number of people who have nothing to lose.

AS for fallout on Israeli citizens, I hope it doesn't happen. At this point in history, any large-scale WMD attack will set in motion a series of events that will benefit no one except a handful of rich old gunrunners in their bunkers.

I dare to hope that before worse things happen, that the sensible nations of the world will come together and do whatever it takes to disarm the US, including its base in Israel, and send in international troops to keep combatants apart until that is complete, at which time free and open elections with voting available to ALL, and monitors and observers and paper trails and cameras on the counters and extra cheese.

[Darranar]

152. "Neo-Feudalism..."

which is a good name for it, IMO, also entrenches American goods all aroudn the world. That was my point.

I share your worry over WMD, but my point has always been that nukes are very effective as a detterent.

[DuctapeFatwa]

153. LOL Apparently lots of folks agree with you on that

Since there is this big scramble to get all nuked up and deter the Crusaders.

To tell you the truth I am surprised every day that some idiot doesn't blow up the planet, as a species, we essentially suck, if you think in terms of how embarrassed you would be if you had to go talk to people from another galaxy and tell them you were a human from earth.

But then I see something like those 27 pilots, and think about all the people, Israeli and Palestinian, who are out there scrambling up and down hills and doing whatever it takes to get somebody some water, some penicillin, some food, and I imagine it must have been hard for the first humans who walked upright, too...

[Equinox]

139. Darranar...

one point:
Pax Americana has not yet been acheieved, and likely will never be. The US is hardly an empire like Rome in regard to occupied lands; the US's holdings outside itself are only occupied Iraq, occupied Afghanistan, and a number of islands in the Pacific.


An empire nowadays doesn't have to be militarily achieved. It's done on an economic basis. That's where Pax American is right on schedule.

[Andromeda]

41. I think you're just confused.

You really meant to say, No candidate who is not 100% behind Israel has a chance, didn't you?

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Laughable

If the rest of the world even TRIED to orchestrate regime change, Bush's popularity would be around 90%.

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. So they could send fan letters to him and sharon at the Hague

The PNAC doctrine is not compatible with the long term continued existence of human life, much less the US or Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. PNAC or not

If the rest of the world makes any move to push * out, they will only solidify his support here.

[tinnypriv]

59. Funny, Ha'aretz says the same about Arafat

:)

[DuctapeFatwa]

64. Yes, many of the voting classes support both Bush and PNAC

They support seizure of natural resources for the enrichment of US corporations, crimes against humanity committed by both bush and sharon regimes, the Crusade against Islam, neo-feudalism, criminalization of poverty, Manifest Destiny and white supremacy.

Their support, however zealous, does not render any of the above policies any more compatible with the long term survival of either the US, Israel or humankind as a whole.

[Cappurr]

8. Yeah.....whats the big deal here

We should try to be an honest broker in the ME. We don't have to rubberstamp everything Israel does. The Israeli lobbies are too powerful and exercise too much influence on our politicians. We need a SOLUTION to the I/P problem....not a bunch of politicians kissing Israel's ass.

[Jim Sagle]

14. Let's kiss Pal ass instead. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Cappurr]

17. Thats not what I said and you know it

And historically, that is ridiculous. Israel has been our ally for fifty years and we have given them everything they needed. I support Israel. But Israel has to be reasonable. It can't have everything it wants. And our support for Israel is costing is now big-time. Don't you realize that it was one of the reasons we went into Iraq? Whats next Syria? Lebanon?

How about if we leave the middle east to its citizens. Insist that Israel and Palestine be divided in a fair and workable way and get the hell out. We have paid our dues to Israel, many times over. Now its their turn to do something for us.

[cherryperry]

21. That's a joke, right?

Israel is our only ally in the region and has done more for the USA than all the Arab states combined.

Yet, they suffer suicide-bombings of civilians in cafes, civilians at parties, civilians trying to use public transportation etc etc almost every day; of course, not every day, but it kind of makes up for that when 2 or 3 happen in one day.

Give me a break with your tired hyperbole, please!

[Cappurr]

29. Really?

Tell me, just what has Israel done for the US except give us a foothold in the Middle East?

You know, fifty years ago, when Israel was formed by annexing Arab land in order to solve a European problem (anti-Semitism), there was a sense of pride that the Jewish people had their homeland and would never be persecuted again. I grew up believing that. I am of German heritage and even though my Grandparents left Germany before Hitler's rise to power, I felt a certain amount of guilt for the horrow of what was done to the Jews.

But now we have Palestinians who are also living in horror. Little freedom. Houses being razed. No jobs. Poverty and hopelessness all around.

Does that excuse suicide bombings? No. Of course not. But there is no excuse for many things the Israeli Army does either....like shoot children and knock down peoples homes....sometimes with people in them. There is no excuse for the settlements which are a red flag in the face of the Palestinians who only want their own land.

There is one reality.....these two people are going to have to live next to one another. The only question is how many people are going to suffer and die in the process? And since the US is the world's only superpower, and Israel's biggest supporter....it is up to us to work out the situation. And if both sides refuse to be reasonable (for example, remove the settlements....forget about right of return) then at the very least we can stop giving Israel the money and weapons and leave them to their own devices. We can just watch and see which side kills which side.

I don't care whose "fault" it is anymore. I don't care who did what to whom. All I care about is the affect it is having on this country and the entire Middle East.

[The Magistrate]

37. Indeed, Ma'am

Both President Clinton and President Carter have recently expressed themselves in a manner it seems to me most Democrats, including the great majority of those who support Israel, are in hearty agreement with.

The government of Israel must give something, if there is to be a peaceable resolution to this conflict. Until they do, the most radical elements of the polity of Arab Palestine will continue to enjoy wide support among that people.

And let me say, Ma'am, it is a rare pleasure to see you back on the forum!

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Both sides must give

I don't see the Palestinians volunteering anything.

Personally, I am tired of hearing how much Israel must give. This is a two-way process. All I hear from the pro-Palestinian side is what Israel must give up to create a Palestinian state. No promises of actual peace. No plans to go after terrorists, just demands.

It grows old.

The Palestinians want a state. To accomplish that aim, they need the aid of Israel, but they don't go about it in any matter designed to get Israeli cooperation. That dooms the Palestinian efforts.

[The Magistrate]

69. You May Well Be Tired Of It, Sir

But there are certain facts of the situation that must be reckoned with.

Chief among them is this: the polity of Arab Palestine has, at this point, nothing to give. Its formal leadership, the Palestine Authority, does not control the violence directed against Israel: it could promise to halt it daily, and twice on Fridays, without having the least effect. The likely result of their doing so, in current conditions, would be an increase of support for the irregular bodies that carry out the attacks against Israeli civilians. An attempt at forcible suppression of these bodies by the Palestine Authority would very likely produce a civil war among Arab Palestinians, and the result of this would be not a dimunition but an increase in attacks against Israeli targets, as doing so would be the surest means of bidding for popular support in such a conflict, which would be decided more by political sentiment than military means.

The things that Israel chiefly wants from Arab Palestine, a cessation of attacks against Israeli civilians, and recognition of the state of Israel as a legitimate entity, can only be got by a change in the feelings of a great preponderance of the people of Arab Palestine. The surest way to alter their feelings is to halt settlement activity, and make a lavish offer for cash liquidation of claims to lost properties and livelihoods. By ending the most immediately galling grievance, and providing immediate prosperity to many, more could be achieved to diminish popular support for attacks against Israeli civilians among the people of Arab Palestine than any feasible military action might achieve.

The key to suppressing a guerrilla campaign is to find a level of accomodation that will be satisfactory to the great bulk of the population that supports it, yet falls short of the desires of the radicals who actually prosecute it. The latter are then isolated, and far more easily liquidated; measures to do so will enjoy the active support of the populace that once supported them, for they will no longer be seen as heroes expressing the people's will, but as upsetters of apple-carts, and threats to new-won gains.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. I agree in part

As always, I find it difficult to completely disagree with you.

The Palestinians do indeed have things to give.

I'm sorry, but I don't care if the PA going after Hamas results in a civil war. Failure to do so should result in no dealings from the Israeli side.

You said it very well in one post and I won't do it justice. But, in essence, Arab Palestine can't move forward until it speaks with one voice both governmentally and militarily. Until the PA becomes that one voice, there is no point in Israel negotiating with it.

As for the settlements, I would indeed halt them. I would however make no offer of cash. Not one penny (or shekel) in fact.

Ultimately, I don't believe any action Israel takes will eliminate the terror attacks. That has to come from the PA or the Palestinians themselves.

[The Magistrate]

85. The Palestine Authority Must Indeed Take Control, Sir

Your paraphrase was excellent, and appreciated.

My point is this: it seems most questionable whether, at this time and in these circumstances, the Palestine Authority is capable of doing that. To do so is so evidently in the best interests of its leadership, and in alignment with their natural desires, that their failure to do so seems an indication of some basic incapacity. Civil war between the Palestine Authority and Hamas and Islamic Jihad would not bother me, except that it does seem likely to me that its practical effect would be to increase the level of attack against Israeli civilians, and there is the possibility the jihadists might emerge victorious, which would be disasterous for all, especially the people of Arab Palestine. The indicated actions, if undertaken by Israel, would in my view greatly strengthen the hand of the Palestine Authority, and make it more capable of taking the necessary unifying action, whether by violent or peaceable means.

Concerning compensation, Sir, it is my hope you might reconsider your view. In the course of the war that established Israel, hundreds of thousands were deprived of properties and livelihoods. It does not matter why they fled: they did; they were not allowed to come back, and their property was given over to immigrants. Not only are they or their heirs entitled to compensation at least, under any consideration of justice or law, but payment of compensation would be of material assistance for Israel in both securing and maintaining a peace. As the song says, "Money changes everything," and few things have less desire for war and chaos than people with some property, as a general rule.

Nor would halting settlement expansion, or payment of compensation, necessarily require negotiation with an impotent authority. Both actions are within the unilateral power of the Israeli state. The first could be accomplished by mere exertion of its authority, the second could be offered to individuals.

[Gimel]

90. Fears of renewed cycle

The release of Palestinian prisoners seems to be the most likely thing that Israel is expected to give to the Palestinians. The Palestinians could do several things to inhibit the growth and continuation of terror attacks on Israel. Arafat could use his control of money, finances, personnel, arms and others means to quite the population. Hamas has a social program as well as a program for terror. That is why they have been enormously successful with the Palestinian population. If Arafat would develop the social programs needed to feed the unemployed, tax the rich and develop schools, roads and hospitals, things could improve rapidly.

Hamas wants all the prisoners released before the next Hudna. If this demand is met, the number of armed milita men on the Palestinian street goes up by about 7,000. I don't think that Israel is safe in doing that.

The Palestinians could reduce incitement in the media which would increase Israel's willingness to grant entry permits to workers.

Good will gestures of this nature are constantly being made by Israel, and ignored by both the PA and posters here.

[Lithos]

44. Cappurr

<HUG>

Good to see you back on the board m'lady!

L-

[cherryperry]

55. Even better that Muddle has remained!!!!

For example, VioletCrumble, I doubt the new mod would post a message of support to anyone; it looks as those this new one is truly following the rules of the forum for which, as long as it lasts, I will be eternally grateful.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. Geez, gimme a break!!!!!

Goddam, I'm quite fond of Muddle, but I don't get the urge to slobber over him lovingly post after post. He'd probably shit himself if I tried it! ;)

Uh, call me perceptive if you will, but I sense yr delving headlong into a criticism of one of the mods because *you* haven't bothered reading the DU rules properly or been here long enough to know how things are in the forums. Yr on yr own with this road yr travelling down, cherryperry...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Wow, a fan base

Actually, I happen to like BOTH of you.

And, since I am now multiply invoked, I would ask a favor.

Please, if for nothing else than my request, let this drop.

I don't pretend to know what has gone on before, but let's try and move forward from here and back to the issues at hand.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. I'll try not to slobber on you...

I'm a bit unsure myself of what's going on here, but like I said in my earlier post, they're starting to wander down a path I don't want to follow and seeing I spent some time in another thread suggesting that discussing the I/P conflict might be a very good idea, I think it's been dropped already on my part...


Violet...

[Cappurr]

84. Thanks...

I'm fired up as usual. lol

[Lithos]

114. I would not expect any less

:evilgrin:

[Andromeda]

40. I don't think you have to worry....

about Israel getting everything it wants. There are too many enemies of Israel who will make sure that doesn't happen. Israel has the capability to take care of Iraq itself so I don't think the US bombing of Iraq mattered one way or the other to Israel. Maybe to Sharon, but I don't believe for a minute that the average citizen of Israel put it at the top of their "things to do" list. If anything, it would create more security problems for Israel, not make it safer.

Israel is an ally of the United States and I wasn't aware that there is a limit on friendship and loyalty. Friends and allies support each other and watch each other's backs and they don't keep track of whom owes whom a favor.

[UserNamesAreFree]

42. Liberal vs. leftist

That's the confusion here, as I see it. The Democratic party is basically liberal, and largely pro-Israel. Leftists are largely pro-Palestinian. Leftists, by and large, are not Democrats, often opting for the Greens or an alternate party. Many leftists consider the Democrats not much better than Republicans. Leftists also tend to be far less capitalistic, even socialist.

As for DU, it seems to be a hybrid. Leftists are certainly more represented here than in the country as a whole. The pro-Palestinian sentiments are stronger than you will find in the Democratic party.

Of course, all of the above are generalities.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. I thought liberals were leftists...

If liberals aren't left-wing, what are they? I find the Democratic Party just a bit puzzling. It doesn't seem to be an opposition party in the same way that the Labor Party here is, and from what I've read at DU some Democratic politicians sound exactly the same as Republicans on some important issues where they should be showing some balls. Also, I see much of the 'support' for Israel expressed by many posters here as being nothing more than Realism. Is it possible for a liberal to be a realist? I thought liberals tended to embrace liberalism rather than realism, but who knows? I'm confusing myself just thinking about it...

Violet...

[UserNamesAreFree]

52. Where are you?

I imagine the 'labor' party in your country is more leftist than the Democratic party is in the US. The Democratic party is often criticized for not being more of an 'opposition' party to the Republicans. The short story is leftists are liberals, but go to a greater extreme.

[tinnypriv]

63. "Leftist" is used a lot in American discourse

It is a very widespread term, especially in academic spheres. It doesn't have much of a literal meaning though. It essentially covers anywhere from trotskists, communists right up to democratic union activists.

The American political system is exteremely narrow, so what is called "liberal" there is often "centrist" elsewhere.

My impression is that "leftist" is commonly used in that context to refer to anyone who has a left-wing position that isn't represented by so-called "mainstream" opinion.

[UserNamesAreFree]

88. You hit it

"The American political system is exteremely narrow, so what is called "liberal" there is often "centrist" elsewhere."

Democrats, or what America sees as liberals, are considered centrists in much of the world. A genuine leftist in the international sense is rare among Americans.