Palestinian media: PM, Mubarak to announce Shalit deal Thurs.

[cali]

Palestinian media reported Sunday that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak are set to announce an agreement on the release of Gilad Shalit, during their meeting this coming Thursday.

Palestinian sources said earlier Sunday that Israel and Hamas have agreed on the details of a deal that will see the release of the kidnapped Israel Defense Forces soldier, who was snatched from his base near the Gaza Strip on June 25.

Meanwhile, Olmert called Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday in order to wish him a happy new year and Eid Al-Adha. According to the Prime Minister's Office, the two agreed to advance in the coming days the implementation of steps they agreed on in their meeting nine days ago.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/807644.html

[cali]

1. latest:

Hamas accepts Israeli offer of 450 Palestinian prisoners for Shalit

Hamas on Tuesday accepted an Israeli offer to free 450 Palestinian prisoners in the second stage of a deal that would see the release of Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit, who was abducted from his army base on June 25.

Palestinian sources told Haaretz that under the terms of the proposal, Hamas would give Israel a video showing that the 20-year-old Shalit is alive, and in exchange, Israel would release an as-yet undecided number of women and minors held in its jails.

Next, Shalit would be transferred to Egypt, and then to Israel; at the same time, Israel would release the 450 Palestinian prisoners.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/808682.html

[idontwantaname]

2. seems hamas is getting done what abbas could not n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

4. seems Hamas is why this situation even emerged. n/t

[idontwantaname]

5. dont be fussy

we all know israel is willing to do anything to get one of its own back... apparently hamas is willing to do the same. the only difference is hamas has killed a lot less civilians doing it.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. and?

We all know that Hamas will kill as many civilians and resort to things like kidnapping to get their way. If they hadn't kidnapped this solider, there is excellent reason to believe that many Palestinians would be alive today.

[breakaleg]

7. Seems to me they are speaking Israel's language - violence.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Seems to me that they know no other way and Israel is actually speaking theirs!

[idontwantaname]

9. correct me if im wrong

but hamas is a fairly new group to this whole conflict. they actually are a result of israels occupation and target assassinations... so really they are speaking israels language... not the other way around.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Actually, they are an offshoot of other groups...

...so while they may seem "new," they are not. They are like every other nebulous group there and have many faces. They are a result of the actions of Egypt and Jordan, and a few others.

[idontwantaname]

13. potAto potato

but where they really came into the mooney is when israel assassinated the al aqsa leader and al aqsa split in two... but think about it, if there was no occupation and no assassinations ect would there be a hamas or would there be a bunch or arabs doing arab things?

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Think about it...

Had Egypt and Jordan taken back the land they lost when they made peace with Israel, then there would be no Israeli occupation. As for your "what/if" scenario, I guess we'll never know because that is not the reality.

[idontwantaname]

20. "land they lost"

now im sure if the land was available they wouldve taken it back but for some reason i think israel would rather hold on to it...

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Gee, from whom did Israel "take" Gaza and the West Bank?

Answer: Egypt and Jordan.

[idontwantaname]

24. and does israel want to give it back?

probably not and i dont doubt theyd use force to keep the west bank... but gaza... i guess nobody wants gaza now. its all fucked up.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. it did at one point.

They are willing to give back the West Bank with exceptions. As for Gaza, well, they (Palestinians) have what they want, now it is up to them to make it a go.

[idontwantaname]

28. lets hear these exceptions. and i want all, not some. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I do not know all the exceptions.

I do know that one of the exceptions is a border that is more defensible than the "green line" was.

[idontwantaname]

31. well, thats not the who pie my friend

basically its an ugly offer. israel would rather keep it but so as to not look like a thief they feign to not want it only they dont want to return it as they got it. see what im saying?

i steal your car and offer to give it back minus the engine, tires and sound system, take it or leave it. you tell me to go to hell.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. If it were that simplistic...

However, the situation is very much more complex. The real fact is that nothing, short of back up to the Green Line will suffice because some of the Palestinians do not want to negotiate. So, if Israel were to do that, we would more bitching and belly-aching about Israel acting unilaterally. It comes down to something very basic, one side is willing to negotiate, the other is not.

[idontwantaname]

33. is it just me

or did you not hear the news that israel doesnt wish to recognize the green line? so i guess youre right... silly me.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Your point?

Was that not what I said earlier? There is a reason they don't. There is a reason they have the need and desire to negotiate. So the big question is: are the Palestinians willing to negotiate the "green line" for an independent nation and a freedom from occupation?

[idontwantaname]

37. yes but they dont want to haggle for a lemon

the proposed israeli plan leaves the palestinians with a "state" which is cut into 3 major pieces. a majority of the farmland is cut out as are many natural resources (mainly aquifers). short of refugee camps and rocky desert theres little for the palestinian economy to function on. and whats the israeli argument for these proposed changes? its not defensible borders (as many foolishly believe) but greed for natural resources and a place to store trash and hazardous waste.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. So you say.

There are many things to negotiate. I don't think the West Bank should be cut apart, but there are ways to compensate. However, if the Palestinians negotiating have your tragic views, then this conflict will not end anytime soon.

[idontwantaname]

42. unfortunately my tragic views are part of reality

visit the west bank yourself and check it out. youll see where 90% of a villages farm lands are lost behind the wall. youll see how all the cities have fallen into disrepair and how the shadow of islam tightens its hold on the civilian population. youll see unemployment is huge and many many goods are imported from israel when they should be produced domesticly. youll see kids who are not afraid of tanks or death because its a daily occurrence. youll also see how a couple checkpoint turn a 15min drive into a 4 hour ordeal.

trust me, if the israelis get their way with the west bank there will be more restrictions and checkpoints because those settlements inside the west bank will be part of israel. you will not be able to travel from hebron to jenin. it will only cause more havoc in the west bank than there is now.

[idontwantaname]

45. bump

see this shits not about who can screw the other guy over. if it doesnt work for both parties it wont work. some can afford to give up land in the west bank and some cant.

sure it might be fancy to have "defensible borders" and satellite colonies but those cozy comforts are frivolous and are going more harm than good. israels defensible enough with the green line as its border.

[oberliner]

3. Hamas claims Shalit progress, Israel says it's all 'spin'

Israeli officials on Tuesday continued to dismiss various reports about an impending deal for the release of kidnapped Cpl. Gilad Shalit as "media spin," even as Hamas sources were saying that the movement has agreed to release Shalit in return for "several hundred" Palestinian prisoners.

The Hamas sources predicted that Shalit would be released "within days," but denied reports that Hamas and the two other groups that are holding Shalit were demanding "only" 450 prisoners.

"The number will be much higher," the sources said. "In addition to 450 prisoners, Israel will also release all minors and female prisoners, but this will happen in stages. The females and minors will be released before Shalit is handed over to the Egyptian authorities."

Israeli government officials, however, said these were more of the same types of claims that Hamas has been feeding to the media over the last week in order to deflect growing impatience on the Palestinian street with Hamas's inability to bring about a prisoner release.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467647683&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Englander]

10. How many are there?

From that Haaretz article;

Palestinian sources told Haaretz that under the terms of the proposal, Hamas would give Israel a video showing that the 20-year-old Shalit is alive, and in exchange, Israel would release an as-yet undecided number of women and minors held in its jails.

How many women & minors are held in Israeli jails? And the next question that should really be
asked, why are women & minors being held in Israeli jails?

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Answer to one question...

"And the next question that should really be asked, why are women & minors being held in Israeli jails?"

Because some are criminals.

[idontwantaname]

14. whats percent of some? 1%? 5%? 100%?

and whats their charge? harvesting their land without a permit?

[Behind the Aegis]

15. That I don't know. Do you?

Do you think they are all innocents? Do you think none of them are guilty of crimes, including murder and terrorism?

[idontwantaname]

17. dont know

i know some are probably charged with rock throwing, which they may or may not be guilty of. not too sure what they pick up other people for though besides trying to enter into israel illegally.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. then some are likely being detained for legitimate reasons.

[idontwantaname]

23. id say guantanamo has a high % guilty than israeli prisons n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

25. unsubstansiated supposition. n/t

[Englander]

18. No, that isn't the answer to the question I asked.

That's a non-answer to a different question. An utterly predictable response, I guessed
(correctly) that would appear within a couple of minutes, & that shouldn't really appear on a site
that tailors towards progressive ideals, but not really the answer to the question that I asked.
I'd have said that "Progressives for the unlimited detention of women & minors on security charges"
is an oxymoron.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. It is an answer to your question.

You just don't like/understand the response.

[Englander]

27. No, it isn't.

Follow your own advice, & try reading all of the question, & comprehending what you're reading.
And, if there's one poster who really, really, really, shouldn't accuse people of not understanding
what they're reading...

Because an insult like that, says more about the person making it than the person being insulted.


B'Tselem spells it out;

Barred from Contact: Violation of the Right to Visit Palestinians Held in Israeli Prisons

Israel holds in prison more than 9,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The vast majority are held in prisons situated inside Israel 's sovereign territory, and not in the Occupied Territories .

Holding these prisoners and detainees in Israel flagrantly breaches international humanitarian law, which prohibits the transfer of civilians, including detainees and prisoners, from the occupied territory to the territory of the occupying state. Israel 's disregard for this prohibition is one of the main reasons that the prisoners and their families are unable to exercise their right to visits in a reasonable manner.

This report sheds light on the many difficulties and the suffering faced by the prisoners' families, residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in their efforts to visit their relatives imprisoned in Israel .

Although Israel has the obligation to enable residents of the Occupied Territories to exercise their right to visit their relatives imprisoned in Israel , the task has been performed, since 1969, by the International Committee of the Red Cross. Relatives from the Occupied Territories who want to visit can do so only on the designated visiting days and on the transportation that the ICRC organizes, provided they received the relevant permit from the Israeli military authorities.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/Summaries/200609_Barred_from_Contact.asp

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Englander]

36. No, it wasn't.

Be honest now, how much of the B'Tselem report was actually read?

[Behind the Aegis]

40. Yes, it was.

The report is if ALL of the prisoners held were transfered from the disputed territories. You don't even know how many are currently held, so how are you going to say they are all in Israel illegally?

[Englander]

46. "Disputed"?

The correct phrase is Occupied Territories, why is it so difficult to understand that?

Israel and the occupied territories
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61690.htm

Israel and the Occupied Territories: An ongoing human rights crisis
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/iot_home

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT)
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Doesn't change the fact the area is "disputed."

[Englander]

49. By the Occupiers. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Still doesn't change the fact they are disputed.

[Englander]

51. Is there an echo in here?

Who's doing the disputing? The Occupiers. What is so difficult to understand about that? Virtually
every news agency & newspaper & ngo on the planet uses the correct phrase, Occupied Territories.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Still is disputed..occupied or not.

[Englander]

53. Yes, by the Occupiers.

I already know the OPT is disputed, so there's no need to repeat that piece of *propaganda*.
Btw, I've just had a look through the archives, to see if the phrase "Occupied Territories" appears
in any posts by yourself, & you were quite happy to use the phrase;

February last year;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=115269#115336

July, last year;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=131683#131699

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=132713#132730

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=132779#132811

August, last year;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=140784#140800

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Because this bit will be totally ignored, I'll repeat it...

From the B'Tselem report...

Holding these prisoners and detainees in Israel flagrantly breaches international humanitarian law, which prohibits the transfer of civilians, including detainees and prisoners, from the occupied territory to the territory of the occupying state.

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Which is irrelvant to the question asked.

On edit: Perhaps, they do not understand international law or its applications.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No, you just don't understand or comprehend the question asked...

But thanks for playing...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. The number of women and minors being held in Israeli prisons...

This BBC article from June last year says: 'Israel is believed to have about 100 women and 300 under-18s among the more than 8,000 Palestinian prisoners in its jails.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5122056.stm

The article doesn't say how many of them are held in administrative detention, though the woman the article is about is being held in administrative detention despite Israel claiming that she was a member of Islamic Jihad...

[Englander]

47. It sounds like 400 is the number.

[oberliner]

54. What is the word now on the deal?

Since there was no announcement on Thursday I wonder where things stand at this point.