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furman Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 02:29 PM
Original message
Mass resignation from Carter Center (14 Jewish members of advisory board)
http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=6394

Jan 11, 2007
Mass resignation from Carter Center
Fourteen Jewish members of the Carter Center in Atlanta resigned to protest the former president’s book blaming Israel for the failure of Middle East peace efforts.

In a letter to Carter obtained by JTA, the group wrote Thursday that he had abandoned his role as peace broker in favor of malicious partisan advocacy, portraying the conflict as a “purely one-sided affair” which Israel bears full responsibility for resolving.

“This is not the Carter Center or the Jimmy Carter we came to respect and support,” the letter said.

“Therefore it is with sadness and regret that we hereby tender our resignation from the Board of Councilors of the Carter Center effective immediately.”


See also:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2787792
Carter's Book Prompts More Resignations
Flap Over Carter's Palestine Book Prompts Resignations at Group He Founded
By GIOVANNA DELL'ORTO Associated Press Writer
The Associated Press

ATLANTA - Fourteen members of an advisory board to Jimmy Carter's human rights organization resigned on Thursday to protest his new book, which criticizes Israeli policy in the Palestinian territories.

The resignations from The Carter Center board are the latest backlash against the former president's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," which has drawn fire from Jewish groups, been attacked by fellow Democrats and led to the resignation last month of Kenneth Stein, a center fellow and a longtime Carter adviser.

"You have clearly abandoned your historic role of broker in favor of becoming an advocate for one side," the departing members of the Center's Board of Councilors told Carter in their letter of resignation.

The 200-member board is responsible for building public support for the Carter Center. It is not the organization's governing board.

...

Steve Berman, an Atlanta real estate developer among those who resigned, said members have "watched with great dismay" as Carter defended the book, especially as he implied that Americans might be afraid to discuss the conflict in fear of a powerful Jewish lobby.

...
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh well n/t
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry fellas
But Israel is a country like the US...and can have the RW f*** ups throw a monkey wrench in the works...just like the US.

I guess instead of worring about Sharon's legacy, you should be concerned with Rabin's legacy...
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. one doesnt have to see israel through rose colored welding goggles.
there is always reality.
carter has been nothing but a friend to israel and jewish people.
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Severely targeted repressive tactics
Edited on Mon Jan-15-07 11:14 PM by ShockediSay
is what Carter gets from the Right Wing elements of The Israel Lobby imho
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Mass loyalty at Carter Center. 93% stay.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-12-07 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. lol
:rofl:
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-12-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Perhaps they are less intellectually honest nt
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. LOL
:rofl: :rofl:
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-11-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Jewish Voice for Peace, has petition to support Carter's truthtelling.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-12-07 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. Most likely a good thing...
Let them go form their own Center, I'm sure it will become well-known...someday.

Good riddance to close-minded, dead weight.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-12-07 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Just finished reading the book.
And I'm really disappointed in Carter. He has done a lot for Israel and for the peace movement in the past but this book was extremely biased. Set aside the whole Apartheid debate and the ethics arguments that go on around here for a minute.

The basic history of the conflict as outlined by Carter was biased to the point of dishonesty. The facts of what occurred during Israel's creation are not in dispute among serious historians. I can see no reason for Carter's decision to selectively remove or include facts based on whether they aided his conclusions. It is flat out dishonest to give such a limited historical picture when Carter purports to be giving an unbiased summary.

This has nothing to do with the conflict. It has to do with honesty.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-13-07 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
calzone Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-13-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh Really?
You're welcome to try to support your amazing asessment.
History doesn't seem to agree w/you. But I suppose you're better informed than our former president.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Who, me?
Do you want me to cite specific examples from the book? There's plenty, if you're genuinely interested and were unable to find any on your own somehow.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I would like to hear some specific examples.
I haven't read the book yet, though I plan to asap. But with all of the criticism about factual errors there have been very few actual specific examples of what those errors were and some of those have been very minor.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Nothing yet?

No egs of any specific egs of any factual errors from the Carter book?
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Actually I spent some time going through the book
and am now sorting through a bunch of examples and a bunch of representative websites to figure out what is worth including without spending all day typing the shit out.

What did you think? That everyone who criticized the book is just undeservedly throwing mud? I've read a lot of good, nonpartisan histories of this conflict and Carter's presentation of the conflict is seriously biased. Seriously, the only way you could come away from it thinking that it was balanced or truly representational would be if you didn't have enough of a knowledge base of the historical events to compare it to.


Keep your panties on. I'll have something put together for you in a day or so.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. What good, nonpartisan histories have you read?
I always like to hear what other people have read just in case I've missed a good, nonpartisan history. They're pretty thin on the ground...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Kick....
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. hey...
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 05:12 PM by Shaktimaan
My current favorite is "Israelis and Palestinians: Why Do They Fight? Can They Stop?" by Bernard Wasserstein. It does a good job of detailing the start of the conflict while remaining concise and without assigning blame.

Now I'm looking forward to re-reading it once I'm done with my Carter/Dershowitz midwinter partisan tour.

Here's the amazon link...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0300105975/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-4262816-6271328?ie=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155

EDIT: I'll try and get to typing out that critique of Carter's book this evening, even if I don't finish it. Thanks for the patience.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. I've got that book...
It's got a different front cover than the Amazon one has, though. I read it about two or three years ago, but I was impressed by it when I read it. Seeing as how I found Jimmy Carter's book at lunchtime today but was unwilling to fork out the huge price being asked for it, I might go and read the Bernard Wasserstein book while I wait for Jimmy Carter's to come out in a more affordable paperback :)
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. can you suggest some good nonpartisan historians?
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 04:58 PM by Douglas Carpenter
I have to admit that I have found rather few who are truly nonpartisan.

By nonpartisan historians they would by definition have to meet this criteria if we are talking about the early history of the conflict regarding the Zionist enterprise and the establishment of the Israeli state:

1. They are neither pro or anti Zionist, pro or anti Palestinian nationalist

2. They are neither sympathetic with the Zionist colonization of Palestine or sympathetic with the resistance against the Zionist colonization of Palestine

3. They are genuinely neutral at least in their historic narrative as to the establishment of the Israeli state in Palestine or the resistance against the establishment of the Israeli state in Palestine

I think that is a reasonable definition of nonpartisan regarding the early history of the conflict
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. yup. I just plugged my current fave above.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. thank you I just ordered it with my "one click" button
given my geography I will have to wait a few weeks.

I really would like to read attempts at nonpartisan history. Because I find that one way or another most historians end up making a moral call.

For the past week I've been working though Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World -- Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126/sr=1-1/qid=1169072039/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books

I think he is closer than most although I would gather that he is still a Zionist who is trying to be honest with the historic record--kind of like Benny Morris without the virulent racism and so much political apologias
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Still nothing?
How difficult is it to produce a couple of egs of "factual errors" from the Carter book, which was,
after all, what was asked for.

btw, here's another book that seems rather relevant :);

Harry G. Frankfurt
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. Thanks for being patient.
So, here's the story.

I spent a few hours going through the book, folding down pages with decent examples of bias, incorrect facts and one-sided history. Then I would look at the book over the following week and put off the effort of actually listing off everything and then disputing it. I realized that a lot of time had gone by yet I felt it was important to make a decent post on this topic so I figured out a compromise since I'm never going to feel like debating every instance I found in the book. (Especially since there was one every 2 or 3 pages.)

What I'll do is give my basic problems with Cater's approach and give a few examples of ones that I thought were either really awful or really conspicuous. I did a little research and I found three articles that listed many of the specific issues that I had with exerpts from the book. It made sense to link to those three rather than type out my own interpretation of them. Although they list a few things that I disagree with and left out a lot that I found very relevant the articles do a pretty good job of listing specific quotes that I had marked and challenging them.

Carter uses a technique that I found to be common in many partisan articles about any complex subject out there. Rather than tell outright lies he manages to give a distinctly different picture of the situation by omitting certain key facts which allows him to draw conclusions that don't represent the whole story. So while he never "lies" he never fully tells the truth either.

page 3: (a timeline of the conflict) "1936: Palestinian arabs demand a halt to jewish immigration and a ban on land salers to jews. British toops attempt to assert control but violence continues. The peel commission recommends partition of palestine between arabs and jews.

1939: Britain announces severe restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchases in Palestine. Violence erupts from Jewish militias."

OK, here Carter makes it seem as though there was a violent insurrection by Jewish militants. Left out is the Arab Uprising of 1936-39 in which over 5000 people died. All it says about that is "violence continues." Yet he makes a point of calling out Jewish reprisals against it. Equally absent are any of the violent episodes preceding it such as the Jaffa riots or the Hebron massacre, all examples of when Arabs preemptively attacks Jewish communities and which were the impetus for creating the jewish resistance groups in the first place.

Page 149: Here carter discusses Sharon going to the temple mount, mentioning that he got Barak's reluctant approval, visited with several hundred policemen and declared that the Islamic holy site would remain under permanent Israeli control while there. Then Carter attributed the Al Aqsa intifada to that visit and said that many Israelis accussed Sharon of purposely going there to inflame tensions and obstruct the peace process.

Some of this is plainly false, and some important information was left out. First off he only talks about the complex as being an Islamic holy site, failing to mention that it is also the home of the most holy relic in Judaism, the western wall which is the last piece of the last temple upon which the temple mount now stands. So the site is holy for Jews as well but Israel allows it to be administered by the Islamic Waqf and doesn't allow Jews to pray there, except for the wall outside, to keep the peace. Sharon also obtained the permission of the Waqf and even Arafat for his visit, which was not to make a public statement but to investigate charges of vandalism inside. He brought the security detail because the Waqf told him to make his own security arrangements. He did not enter the mosque, nor did he make a statement. His security men ignored the rock throwing and attempts at engaging them and left peacefully. Arafat's own buses had provided transportation for the protesters.

The Mitchell report, America's investigation into the affair, plainly said that Sharon's visit was not why the intifada started. It attributed the Intifada to the breakdown of peace talks at Camp David and listed evidence to support it.

Another thing Carter does is include extended quotes from Arab leaders who tell their side of the story, often complete with many errors. Then he leaves it alone, doesn't offer any contradicting text, nothing. The reader is left with the impression that...

page 62 Extended quote from arafat where he proclaims that the PLO never advocated the annialation of Israel, in 1969 wanted to establish a secular, democratic state where jews christians and muslims whould live in peace together but since the jews said that they only wanted to live with other jews the PLO had to resort to another route.

There's also examples of exaggeration.

Page 83: Transjordan is created out of some remote desert regions of the Palestine Mandate.

Remote desert regions? Transjordan was something like 80% of the mandate.

There's plenty more. I'll leave you with those links to some articles which go through some more stuff. Reactions appreciated.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/11/the_world_according_to_jimmy_c.html

http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=43958

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467747675&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Story is the right word.

No factual errors, & what happened to the "bunch of representative websites"? Clueless propagandists
such as Dershie, & conservative sites such as americanthinker, the nysun & jpost?

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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. reply to englander
what is the point of blocking me only to then respond to my posts. Obviously I can't reply to them.

In any case there are plenty of factual errors listed. Such as Carter's claim that Israel preemptively attacked Jordan in 1967. Or the repeated claim that UN resolution 242 requires Israel to return to the 1948 borders. He also said of the 2000 camp david offer that originated from Clinton that Barak never indicated that he would accept it. He said that the PA is (and always was) committed to the roadmap peace process and were willing to accept it as it is without any changes.

All are patently false. Many, many more examples of incorrect facts are written by secondhand sources and transcribed by carter without qualifying them. So for all practical purposes they count as well. In a book for the general public like this one, when you quote Assad as saying that Syria has always respected Lebanon's borders and then don't question it or mention any history to the contrary, you have been dishonest.

But if you read my original criticism it made much more of the bias and one-sided history Carter portrayed and didn't accuse him of lying, just being dishonest. And forgetting to reference violence initiated by Palestinians yet scrupulously noting that from the Jews is quite dishonest if portrayed as a straight history.

And not liking my links is not a great refutation of their content. Regardless of whether you like dershowitz or not he is hardly "clueless." If you think their arguments are invalid, by all means prove so. But just calling a source conservative and then dropping it is a pretty lame argument.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. you have to admit those are pretty partisan sites
Not that there is anything inherently wrong with partisan sites. But if the point is to nail down specific factual errors -- I would humbly suggest that more nonpartisan sites or sources would be more appropriate. And for that matter President Carter was writing a polemic, not a concise technical history. And I really don't see where President Carter was being particularly hard on Israel when giving a brief overview of the history. I am absolutely certain that a Palestinian advocate could also find an equal number of complaints. However, most Palestinian advocates are simply rejoicing that a book that discusses most of their major concerns is on the best seller list.

Although I would agree that the break down of the "peace talks" were the underlining cause of the second intifada, I don't think there is much doubt but what Mr.Sharon's visit lit a match on the dry embers of discontent.

Here is the report from Human Rights Watch on the events of that day:

"On September 29, Israeli security forces used lethal force to disperse thousands of Palestinians attending Friday prayers at al-Aqsa Mosque in East Jerusalem after some of those present threw stones at police and at Jewish worshipers at the Western Wall. An unusually large number of Palestinians were present at the mosque to protest a visit the previous day by Knesset Member Ariel Sharon, interpreted by many as an assertion of Israeli sovereignty over the area. Israeli forces killed five Palestinians and wounded over 200. Violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians then spread to other parts of the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel. Within three weeks, more than 120 Palestinians were killed and 4,800 injured many as result of excessive, often indiscriminate, use of lethal force by Israeli security forces against unarmed civilians. In a number of cases IDF soldiers appeared to target Palestinian medics, at least one of whom was killed and twenty-seven were injured by mid-October. At this writing, the IDF had significantly expanded its use of tanks and helicopter gunships armed with both missiles and medium-caliber machine guns in Palestinian residential areas. "

link: http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/israel.html
__________________

Although President Carter quotes the late Mr. Arafat, I did not get the impression that he was endorsing Mr. Arafat's quote as accurate history.

In reading the original 1964 PLO Charter, there is no use of the words that I can find such as destruction or annihilation of Israel. However, I would have to agree that the original 1964 Charter did reject the legitimacy and legality of the Israeli state.

Although by the late 60's the PLO may have been moving toward the concept of the democratic secular state which included reconciliation with the Jewish people of Israel - which is a major reason why Dr. George Habash lead the rejectionist break-off and formed the PFLP in 1967 - as best as I can find the democratic-secular state where Jews, Christian and Muslims would live together as equal--did not become official until 1974. So Mr. Arafat appears to have been a bit selective with his history. But President Carter was quoting Mr. Arafat; not stating these details as historic facts.

link: http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/worldreach/assets/docs/israeli-palestinian_conflict/studentlesson4.html
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. gotta run to work
but just quickly...

Yes, I fully admit that those sites are partisan. But I think that partisan sites are the most likely places to post strong refutations of Carter's book. I stated that I didn't agree with everything they said, I was really just using them as a tool to list off errors or issues people have with what carter wrote. The sites weren't thought to be non-partisan, but they don't have to be. They just have to state the main errors in the text, which they did.

My main point was that Carter really presented himself as unbiased yet he wasn't. I mean, all of the resignations from Jewish staff is significant. These aren't hardline rightwingers. They're people who believed in the carter institute's mission. The fact that so many were appalled is pretty telling.

And for the record, I actually find HRW to be pretty biased as well in their reporting. They're a good organization but they definitely have a double standard when it comes to Israel and Palestine. This is wikipedia's account of the intifada's start.

The October 2000 Riots is the name for the rioting by Israeli Arabs in October, 2000 during what some Jews refer to as the Rosh Hashanah Arab Assault <16>(which they consider to be the beginning of the Intifada) because it started just before Rosh Hashanah, 5761, on September 28, 2000, when Ariel Sharon ascended the Temple Mount. They claim that Arabs "used the visit as an excuse for the violence that the Arabs planned to carry out after the failure of the Camp David summit in July 2000." Some Palestinian officials admitted this claim (see Prior events). Arabs saw Sharon's visit as an assault on the Al-Aqsa Mosque. For this reason, the whole conflict is known by Arabs as the Al-Aqsa Intifada.

On September 29, 2000, the day after Sharon's visit, following Friday prayers, large riots broke out around Old Jerusalem during which several Palestinians were shot dead. Already in the same day, the September 29, 2000, demonstrations and riots broke out in the West Bank. In the days that followed, demonstrations erupted all over the West Bank and Gaza. The same day, in the West Bank city of Qalqilyah, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart Supt. Yosef Tabeja,<17> an Israel Border Police officer.

The riots started that October, when Israeli Arabs, citizens of Israel, blocked main roads (such as Wadi Ara road), set banks and stores on fire and assaulted Jewish citizens. An Israeli civilian from Rishon LeZion, Jan Bechor was killed when an Arab youth threw a stone at his car which crashed near Jisr az-Zarqa.

The Israeli Police reacted by sending crowd-control units to try to break up the riots. Policemen opened fire with rubber-coated bullets and later live ammunition was used on the rioters in some instances, and snipers were deployed. This resulted in the deaths of 12 Israeli-Arabs and 1 Palestinian. Following these events the crowds dispersed and order was restored.

In response to the Arab Israeli riots, thousands of Jewish Israelis participated in violent acts in Nazareth and Tel Aviv, some throwing stones at Arabs, destroying Arab property and chanting "Death to Arabs".<18> Two Arabs were killed in the violence and Haaretz editorialized that that year's "Yom Kippur will be infamous for the violent, racist outburst by Jews against Arabs within Israel".<19>
The lynching in Ramallah
The lynching in Ramallah

On October 12, two Israeli reservists who entered Ramallah were arrested by the PA police. An agitated Palestinian mob stormed the police station, beat the soldiers to death, and threw their mutilated bodies into the street. The killings were captured on video by an Italian TV crew and broadcast on TV; the picture (to the right) is of one of the lynchers waving his blood-stained hands from the window.<20><21>The brutality of the killings shocked the Israeli public<22> and were condemned by Palestinian leaders; Marwan Barghouti described them as "an unbelievable act, which should be condemned by everybody." Mark Seager, a British photographer who was the only journalist to witness the lynchings stated "I know they are not all like this and I'm a very forgiving person but I'll never forget this. It was murder of the most barbaric kind. When I think about it, I see that man's head, all smashed. I know that I'll have nightmares for the rest of my life",<23> and the BBC stated "the brutal death of these men - in full glare of TV - will have a lasting impact on the Israeli population and abroad."<20>
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Investigating reports of vandalism?
The way to investigate purported property crimes, obviously, is to have the most controversial man in Israel, the man the Palestinians know as the butcher of Sabra & Shatila, the aggressive minister of land seizure (sorry, "settlement construction"), who is also known to be aiming for the position of Israeli PM, show up at their mosques with a thousand heavily armed cops. Right. And while he's there, he coincidentally decides to do a prayer. And I guess the biased Western media thereupon falsely reported that the original idea was to have a prayer visit, designed to emphasize Israeli control of the temple mount.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. A prayer visit?
Who said he prayed there?
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calzone Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. yes....you.
Answering a challenge with a general question isn't an answer, it's called "stalling".
You said Carter mangled and distorted the truth, presumably on purpose, I challenged you to back up your amazing charge, now put up or accept your predicament. But please don't shuck&jive, I get enough of that from the right wing dingbats.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. They have nothing.
Pedantic drivel and imaginary lapses. It amazes me to see this weasel Stein turn on Carter like a rabid dog, after an association of decades, and do everything in his power to publicly harm his name and reputation, on these flimsy and trumped up pretexts, meanwhile whining about "intellectual honesty".
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calzone Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Agreed...
...IMO Carter tried harder than any other president to bring peace to the middle east, and his statements that have drawn this retaliation are intended to cut thru the nonsense,(contrast with the public statements of Rice during the last conflict for Israel to continue bombing Lebanon and of Bush asking Olmert to attack Syria) and start genuine peace proceedings.
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ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Since the Oslo Accords, and Rabin's assassination
I think Israel, with the able assistance of the US Israel Lobby, has swerved to the extreme Right Wing brand of politics, tactics and repression.

Maybe Carter is overcompensating in an attempt to bring things back to a balance where peace was do-able.

I also thing, that were it not for the extreme Right Wing back in 1948, including its terrorist elements (Stern Gang, Irgun etc.) Israel as we know it, might never have come into existence.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Can you give some examples?
The basic history of the conflict as outlined by Carter was biased to the point of dishonesty. The facts of what occurred during Israel's creation are not in dispute among serious historians.

Examples?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. Just finished reading the book, too.
And, had Carter included all the things you detail below, would that really have changed his premise?

Seems to me the book was written at a level of simplicity on purpose -- not for the purpose of bias or being dishonest, though, but more in regards to being able to put things in a nutshell. Let's face it, if you include all the details, it would be such a massively long read that I doubt people would buy it. Some of the more detailed books on the subject are so thick, I think it deters people from opening them up.

But, really, my point is, would it have changed his premise? IMHO, no.
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