Jewish Leaders Deny the Facts When They Sandbag Jimmy Carter

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Last night 100 progressive people, almost all Jewish (one wore Muslim head covering), crowded the Village Temple in New York to learn about conditions in the Occupied Territories. The speakers were a former Israeli soldier and a former Palestinian resistance fighter. They said the following:

—There are 530 checkpoints in the West Bank. Only 30 are on the Green Line between the West Bank and Israel. Yes; some of those have stopped suicide bombers. The purpose of the other 500 has nothing to do with security. "The strategy there is to destroy Palestinian society, to prevent any joint organized struggle ," said the Israeli.

—The Israeli P.M. recently promised the Palestinian President that the checkpoints would be relaxed. They have not been. "The army receives these instructions and... does not take the instructions," the Israeli said, citing Israel's leading newspaper. Thus the army acts on its own as a repressive force (Israeli generals have long defied civilian supervision)."

<snip>

"The situation these men describe is worse than apartheid. "Three and a half million people live without any rights," said the Israeli, whose own sister was killed by a suicide bomber. "You want to stop these people , you should give them a reason to live."

The campaign by the U.S. Jewish leadership to smear Jimmy Carter will one day be taught in history books, as an effort by a privileged elite to suppress the truth. Slavery and segregation also had powerful defenders who misrepresented those conditions. Despite all their well-connected efforts, these people will lose. The progressive Jews in the temple last night merely wanted to know the facts."

http://mondoweiss.observer.com/2007/01/jewish-leaders-deny-the-facts-when-they-sandbag-jimmy-carter.html


In Hebron, a South African Compares Israeli Occupation to Apartheid

<snip>

"Every now and then in life, and maybe just when you want it, god throws down a thunderbolt. It happened to me on Friday in Hebron, in the Occupied Territories. A group of seven Israelis and I were sitting in an Arab man's house, discussing the harassment and denial of movement to Palestinians in the center of that city—the second largest city in the West Bank—when I wondered for the 100th or thousandth time how the conditions I was seeing for myself in the occupation compared to apartheid in South Africa, which Americans rose up against 20 years ago.

Then the door opened and a group of international volunteers came in. I heard European accents, and a tall black man with a tan haversack walked across the room and took the seat right beside me.

"Where are you from?" I asked.

"South Africa," he said.

"Do you know about apartheid?"

"I lived through apartheid."

"How does this compare to apartheid?"


"In Johannesburg we had access to all the roads; they do not have that here," he said. "There were times we couldn't use the roads but those were exceptional occasions. We did not have these checkpoints. We carried papers but we were not constantly having to produce our papers as I have seen happens here. Our schools were inferior, but at least we could go to school. Many of these children are harassed on their way to school or are not allowed to get to schools. I have been here only three and a half weeks--but in my opinion, it is worse than apartheid."

"Worse than apartheid:" the words of Gosiame Choabi, an official of the South African Council of Churches."

http://mondoweiss.observer.com/2006/08/in-hebron-a-south-african-compares-israeli-occupation-to-apa.html

[JohnyCanuck]

1. "Worse than apartheid:" the words of Gosiame Choabi

By default his criticism of Israeli policy and inability to discern that Israel is always on the side of the angels makes him an anti-Semite,therefore his observation can be discarded as just more hate mongering against Jews.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frylock]

4. it's hard when your shattered view of reality is challenged..

hopefully you'll come to grips with your cognitive dissonance sometime soon.

[Jim Sagle]

5. I see no challenge at all from the venomous lies of a bucktoothed bozo.

[UndertheOcean]

12. You are very classy...

n/t

[Jim Sagle]

13. So is Carter.

[JohnyCanuck]

6. Then the world could use

a few more "filthy" personalities who don't allow themselves to be scared into silence by the bullying of AIPAC and the pro-Israel lobby.

[Jim Sagle]

7. If they told the truth, fine. Since they don't, fuck'm.

[Tom Joad]

3. South African leaders say what is happening in Palestine makes what they experienced

seem like a Sunday Picnic.
“Why are all the things done to apartheid South Africa not being done to Israel?” demanded top South African trade unionist Willy Madisha as he addressed the national gathering of trade unions in London last week.

Speaking at the Palestine Solidarity Campaign’s trade union conference, held on March 11 in London, Madisha – the president of South Africa’s COSATU union – condemned Apartheid Israel and urged greater international action including a worldwide boycott of Israeli goods similar to the movements that helped topple the racist regime of South Africa.

.....
“Apartheid was characterized by killings, hangings, disappearances, arrests, exile, confiscations, inferior education and the creation of Bantustans,” said Madisha. “All this was a Sunday picnic compared to what is happening to the Palestinians,” he continued. “I say with confidence that Israel is an apartheid state.”
But Madisha further noted that the global response to Apartheid Israel from trade unions has so far been inadequate. “The trade union movement must move beyond resolutions, otherwise history will look back on us and spit on our graves,” he said.

The call for a global boycott of Apartheid Israel by activists and trade unionists from around the world.
__________________________

Willy Madisha knows what it is like to struggle against an apartheid system, supported by the United States (and Israel) and Win.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shaktimaan]

9. I think this quote says a lot.

I have been here only three and a half weeks--but in my opinion, it is worse than apartheid."

I've said this many times. This is a complex conflict and you can NOT judge it without spending the time to understand it. For example, (and I am not endorsing the settlements here but merely illustrating the hidden complexity not always visible to the casual observer,) this quote happened in Hebron, of all places. Hebron may be one of the only places where the settlements have some legitimacy in that it was always a Jewish city. All of the Arabs who are mentioned here and inspired this gentleman to make the apartheid comparison are in fact the ones who settled Hebron and threw the previous Jewish inhabitants out. (several times throughout history, but most recently in 1929.) There has been a Jewish presence in Hebron since at least 700 BCE, as demonstrated by jar handle stamps bearing hebrew letters dated to then.

Additionally, the other 500 checkpoints in question are there to prevent the transfer of weapons and bombmaking materials. It has been addmitted by member of the PA that the intifada would not have been possible without the freedom of movement granted to them by Oslo.

[Tom Joad]

10. Have you ever lived in Hebron? As a Palestinian... with children

that you worry about not making it back and forth to school during the day without being attacked by Jewish settlers?

What would you then say about the "complexity" of the rocks that are thrown at your 8 year old, while Israeli soldiers look on, either out of support of the persecution, indifference or fear of the political power of the settlers?

This is all well-documented.

If Jews are going to live in Hebron they are going to have to live as neighbors, not as colonial conquerers. There would have to be a law that all groups would be accountable for. Not a law that only protects Jewish settlers from any responsibility from the harm they do Palestinian residents.

http://www.telrumeidaproject.org/video.html

[Shaktimaan]

11. Sure, I try and do that at least once a year.

OK, no I've never been a Palestinian with children living in Hebron. Have you? I've never met a Palestinian named Tom.

Have you at least been to the occupied territories once or twice, Tom?

While you seem to have trouble finding information on it, the violence in Hebron occurs on both sides. It is one of the pressure points of the whole conflict and tensions run high. Thus you are likely to see examples of extremism from both parties there. It is not as though Palestinian residents of Hebron are acting with greater restraint than the settlers so any reasonably objective discussion refrains from assigning roles of "aggressor" and "victim" to the respective sides. It is not that simple. For example, 10 month old Shalhevet Pass was shot by a sniper while sitting in a stroller next to his parents. Note that the sniper could have easily shot one of the parents, who were the actual settlers instead of the child but chose otherwise.

This is not an apology for settler violence or unequal application of the rule of law. But any progress towards a peace settlement has to start with an honest appraisal of the situation. Not with a biased blame game.

while Israeli soldiers look on, either out of support of the persecution, indifference or fear of the political power of the settlers?

This is all well-documented.


OK, link it up my friend. I'm specifically interested in documentation that supports your assumptions about the soldier's MOTIVES. Because I can think of plenty other reasons that some soldiers might seem indifferent. For one, you do realize that they aren't cops, right? Their job there is to protect the settlers, not to police them. It is also worth noting that the soldiers themselves are subject to attacks and thus have a less than trustworthy relationship with the Palestinians. There are plenty of instances of Hebron residents attacking soldiers, it is not an unwarranted issue. Don't forget that there are only a few hundred settlers and 120,00 Palestinians there. Whatever you think of the settlers right or lack thereof to live there, no one can argue that it is not a dangerous place for Israelis.

Colonial conquerers? Let me ask you something. Many Palestinians are fighting for right of return to Israel proper. Would you also classify them as colonists? If no, what is the difference between them and Hebron settlers?

[calzone]

14. When you lack support...

....cloud the issue.
"This is not an apology for settler violence or unequal application of the rule of law."
You sure could'a fooled me.
Plenty of incidents of Hebron residents attacking soldiers?
How? With a slap or an insult? How does a baby or a 90 year old woman attack a soldier armed with the world's most sophisticated weapons, backed by the world's most sophisticated arsenal? Residents?
Where on God's green earth are you getting your info?
The difference between the settlers and the Palestinians is the difference between an aggressor and a victim. Cloud that all you want, use lame sophistry like "it's very complicated". Facts are stubborn things, and you can spin all you like but some of us can smell it a mile away.