What killed Palestinian girl?

[oberliner]

Pathologist hired by 10-year-old Abir Aramin's family determines she was killed by rubber bullet. Police investigation concludes she was not shot

Ten-year-old Abir Aramin from the West Bank town of Anata was killed a week ago. This is the only piece of information that the girl's family and the police agree on.

On Thursday, with help from B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, the family published an autopsy report determining that Abir was killed by a rubber bullet shot to her head.

Judea and Samaria District police were still investigating the cause of death. One of the possibilities was that the girl was hit by one of the stones that were thrown at the riot. The police said that the cause of death would be determined only when the investigation is concluded.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3357132,00.html

[mike_c]

1. doubless the police will conclude that she was killed by a rubber bullet...

...thrown by a Palestinian rioter. Those wily arabs will do just about anything to discredit their brave Israeli protectors.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

2. Sarcasm implies murder

Tragedy indeed, the depths of which I have not had to experience with one of my own children. When your neighbors around you collude to bomb your house, what do you do?

[mike_c]

4. you mean the neighbors who stole their houses from you in the first place....

You really don't mean to refer to Israeli settlers as Palestinians' "neighbors," do you?

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

5. Nope, I mean the right full owners of their homes.

[mike_c]

7. I'm sorry-- I don't understand what you're saying....

Who are the "right full owners of their homes" that you're speaking of? Could you please speak plainly so that I don't misunderstand your meaning?

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

8. I will bet that happens a lot.

[mike_c]

11. ah, so that's the way it is....

Welcome to DU. I hope your stay here is longer and happier than I suspect it will be.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

12. ah, more sarcasm! Thanks, Mike

I wish I had a dime for every time that has been said.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

16. Thanks for the debate Mikee, see you in the next life.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

3. My sentiments exactly...

...Another 10 year old Palestinian girl probably out looking to terrorize those poor, innocent IDF soldiers. I'm sure they had no choice but to take her down. When will those pesky Arabs ever learn?

[The Magistrate]

6. A Terrible Incident, Sir

That will be only rendered worse by this sort of wrangling over the little corpse.

The accounts of what killed the unfortunate child have seemed to change over time. It would seem to me not too easy a thing to distinguish between a blow to the skull from a riot round and from a forcefully hurled rock: both would be blunt blows. An investigator could readily find what he was looking to find, and neither side of this dispute inspires much trust that its approach is dispassionately concerned only to find the truth of the matter. Reports from people who do not like the police say there was no disturbance; the police say there was a disturbance and they did not fire: neither is entitled to the presumption they are being honest.

One thing that does seem likely enough to approach fact is that the unfortunate child herself was not involved in any actuon against the police. That would be quite inconsistent with the character of her father, and he may be presumed to have a defining effect on the child's views and actions.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

9. You are right judge.

Your wisdom inspires.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Isthathwryrgnabe]

14. 10000'S of tombstones

Why? Nothing to hide - how about you? Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey

[Poll_Blind]

10. The IDF has a fairly long rap-sheet for headshotting children. I think...

...it was during the Second Intifada that the statistic came out that 70% of the Palestinian children shot by the IDF were shot in the head. When the IDF gunned down that little boy, Mohammed Al-Dura (IIRC), they just kind of sprayed him and his father who were huddled against the wall. But when that other IDF soldier gunned down that little girl who was walking to school, you know, the one that he "confirmed the kill" on, I'm pretty sure that was a headshot too. Then, when that other IDF soldier gunned down the guy at night on that corner and continued to pump rounds into him as the videotape rolled and people tried to drag him away...ah, well you get the point.

  Anyway, some governments use rubber bullets with wooden cores. Not the IDF. The IDF uses rubber bullets with steel cores, which have a higher kinetic impact because of the mass of the steel, than say wood. Frontline, IIRC, did a special on the late Masen Dana (sp?), a photo-journalist in the Palestinian Occupied Territories and at the time he was recovering from a concussion from being shot in the head (he wasn't wearing his helmet) with a steel-core rubber bullet. If anyone's seen it they should recall the scene where he's recounting the story- he picks up one of the many rubber bullets laying on the ground (they were in a combat area) and cuts it open with a pocket knife to reveal the metal core.

  Until someone ponies up autopsy photos, it's not going to be easy to try to determine what killed her. Just scratching, I think it would take a rock at least four times as big (if not quite a bit bigger) to do the damage to an area that a rubber bullet would. And the "footprint" would be larger, but I don't know much about how those sorts of injuries work.

  On a related note, I went to Magen David's website or maybe someplace in the U.S. who was working with them and read what the Israelis had learned from being the victims of so many suicide bombs. Up until about 5-6 years ago I always thought it was the shrapnel. Once I read about how an overpressure injury works- wow, nasty, nasty stuff. Back at the time, I think we could post pictures in the old Foreign Affairs forum and someone had posted the grim scene after a bus bombing. Terrible.

  I'd be nice if once every couple of weeks Lithos or UGRR would open up a thread that you could post non-excessively gory pictures in. Everyone gets one post, one picture, and the description underneath and the thread gets locked sometime that evening. Sometimes I think we could all do with a bit of seeing the grief or maybe the cooperation (poster's choice) on both sides which maybe we unconsciously filter out a bit when reading the stories.

PB

[oberliner]

15. What does the "(IIRC)" mean after the name Mohammed Al-Dura? nt

[Poll_Blind]

17. If I recall correctly. Just got home from school, not bothering to pull...

...up links, yadda yadda, going from memory.

PB

[oberliner]

18. gotcha, thanks

Not up on my internet abbreviations!

[The Magistrate]

19. That Statistic Has An Odd Ring, Sir

If you are refering to standard ammunition, seventy percent of those shot being shot in the head would mean at least sixty per cent fatalities among those shot, even without allowance for lethal wounds elsewhere on the body. That does not ring true. It could be you remember a statement that seventy percent of those killed were struck in the head, which would be an unsurprising figure, as head wounds are generally lethal. It would be too much to claim this demonstrates a great intent to kill, as a great many wounds are in essence accidents, in that where the bullet actually impacts is often pretty random.

It would be no surprise, either, if most lethal injuries resulting from the riot rounds were the result of impacts on the head. And again, where the round strikes is pretty random: they are not something that really can be aimed except at point-blank range.

[mike_c]

20. you might want to take a look at this...

...and reconsider your understanding of the term "random." This is from an article about my local small town police force:

?click

[Poll_Blind]

21. Hey, you can also put a "?click" after it, sans quotes, and it'll do the...

...same thing. They have to click on it to display. I can't remember if this works inside link brackets, but it might. Since you can post maps here, I rarely use the ?click trick and forget how many different ways you can use it.

PB

[mike_c]

22. thanks! I learn something new everyday!

That works MUCH better!

[The Magistrate]

23. Target Shooting Was A Childhood Joy, Sir

The things stay very still, and the setting is very calm.

Being able to put five rounds in the space of a dime at fifty feet, though, was not a good indicator that five rounds would bag five squirrels.

The fact is that quite literally thousands of bullets are fired by armies for evey one that actually strikes someone. If everyone could shoot under stress and emotional heat like they do on a target range, snipers would not be a cultivated speciality.

[razors edge]

24. Tell it to the marines. n/t

[Poll_Blind]

25. Yeah, I was wrong. I should already be in bed but at least one...

...batch of statistics are from the Physicians for Human Rights report on Janin in 2002/2003. I want to say it was from a Ha'aretz report, and that the original report maybe was from B'Tselem instead of PHR. Anyway, on reading the PHR I remembered that the reports almost always lumped head and head, neck and upper-torso which for purposes of arguing just open up too many worms.

Remember These Children has a much, much clearer breakdown but in the few minutes I was able to cruise, I couldn't find the sourcing for each death's cause.

PB

[The Magistrate]

26. Not A Problem, Sir

We are certainly in agreement that children should not be shot by soldiers, and it happens far too often for any decent person's liking.

"I never forgive: I often forget."