How my eyes were opened to the barbarity of Islam

[msmcghee]

(This as one talk of many given at the recent Islamic Summit in St. Pete, FL) From The Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article1480090.ece

March 07, 2007
Is it racist to condemn fanaticism?
Phyllis Chesler

Here's a link to the summit website itself where several of the keynote talks are posted in case anyone is interested. Very interesting and heartwarming stuff IMO.

http://www.secularislam.org/blog/SI_Blog.php

I post this as an example of the progressive ideas being explored in the recent Islamic Summit Conference in Florida - that ultimately address the core of the problems in the I/P conflict - and offers eventually, a way out of the morass for Israel, the Palestinians and the world. I sincerely hope this movement has a chance to flower in Muslim / Arab countries.

Excerpt follows:

<snip>

Nevertheless, Western intellectual-ideologues, including feminists, have demonised me as a reactionary and racist “Islamophobe” for arguing that Islam, not Israel, is the largest practitioner of both sexual and religious apartheid in the world and that if Westerners do not stand up to this apartheid, morally, economically and militarily, we will not only have the blood of innocents on our hands; we will also be overrun by Sharia in the West. I have been heckled, menaced, never-invited, or disinvited for such heretical ideas — and for denouncing the epidemic of Muslim-on-Muslim violence for which tiny Israel is routinely, unbelievably scapegoated.

However, my views have found favour with the bravest and most enlightened people alive. Leading secular Muslim and ex-Muslim dissidents — from Egypt, Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Pakistan, Syria and exiles from Europe and North America — assembled for the landmark Islamic Summit Conference in Florida and invited me to chair the opening panel on Monday.

According to the chair of the meeting, Ibn Warraq: “What we need now is an age of enlightenment in the Islamic world. Without critical examination of Islam, it will remain dogmatic, fanatical and intolerant and will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality, originality and truth.” The conference issued a declaration calling for such a new “Enlightenment”. The declaration views “Islamophobia” as a false allegation, sees a “noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine” and “demands the release of Islam from its captivity to the ambitions of power-hungry men”.

<snip>

[Karmageddon]

1. It's not Islam that's barbarous, it's Fanatacism and Fundamentalism that's barbarous. (eom)

[msmcghee]

2. Yes, that's the point of the summit. I think the title . .

. . of her talk is a bit misleading.

[Turbineguy]

3. Interesting.

Especially some of the comments. My education was that while my European ancestors were painting their faces blue, the Islamic world was the bastion of science, art and philosophy. So I have to think that it is not necessarily the religion. It's the ignorance. In the west, especially America, the Christian Right has ridden the wave of increasing ignorance. That's what makes it so scary to me.

We do not need to be barbaric, but obviously education and critical thought is the enemy of the ignorance that is needed for barbarity.

The Bushbots would have us believe that none of this barbarity existed before 9/11/2001, but it took hundreds of years for things to get to where they are today. Perhaps while killing lots of Islamic Radicals is a short term solution, in the end it is going to be education and enlightenment that solves this. And it is going to take the Thinkers in the Islamic world to do this and not the Westerners. There is no reason to believe that Islamic faith itself stands in the way of this. The Christian world managed to pull itself out of the dark ages and in the end the Church was unable to continue standing in the way of progress.

But that's just my opinion.

[msmcghee]

4. Thanks for adding your opinion on this.

I hope you are right. I also hope we hear more such thoughtful opinions in this forum.

[Igel]

15. Don't confuse the culture with the religion.

As the Islamic world reverted to ignorance, the Xian world was the bastion of science, art, and philosophy. But certainly one doesn't want to assert that Xianity is responsible for science. Perhaps art.

But then again, Muslims trashed the Indian universities and schools that had been bastions of art and science when the Arabs were poor camel herders--they trashed the Xian monasteries, as well. If we claim Islam was responsible for science, than Islam was responsible for looting and pillaging. During the Muslim Golden Age in Spain, the tolerant rulers beheaded Xians that dared to proselytize.

What's it called when you can only point out something's good traits and are incapable of pointing out its flaws? Critical thinking? No, that's not it ...

Whatever it is, it's as intellectually valid as pointing out only the bad traits of something, and never pointing out that something's positive traits.

[aquart]

5. All fanatics are exactly the same.

No matter what name they give it or what cause they claim, they are identical.

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Thats a trifle simplistic

Clearly Islamic fundies are much more of a problem than Xtian fundies today. The death count alone should make that clear.

[aquart]

10. And you think Xtian fundies won't kill for their "faith"?

Destabilize this government like we did to Iraq. See what you get.

Fanatics are identical. I think it's pathological. Our brain wiring always makes it take the same route.

That one group is more deadly at any given time than another does not diminish the twinship. We prosecute murder in this country. That puts a stop on the calls for holy war. So the Xtians play video games in which they mass murder non-believers. Think that's all in the spirit of fun?

[breakaleg]

7. What does this have to do with the I/P conflict?

[msmcghee]

8. More than you realize. Read some of the linked articles. n/t

[breakaleg]

9. Ok. Now I ask the question again. What does it have to do with I/P?

[Malikshah]

11. No more than any other conflict involving folks who feel that only one

side has a monopoly on morality and victimhood.

Add to that, the broad brush strokes used... I/P has *so* much to do w/ Islam as we all *know* Palestinians to a man woman and child are strident fanatical Muslims...:sarcasm:

Your question is well-placed, but I fear you will receive no answer...which, btw, is answer enough.

[breakaleg]

14. I think this issue is real and it's great that it's being addressed. But

I'm waiting for the OP to make the connection she seems to be hinting at but is unwilling to spell out.

I'm patient.

[msmcghee]

18. Thanks for being patient.

I had to drive over to Montana from the Seattle area to pick up a standup bass that I just bought. So I was away from my computer for a few days. I will always answer any question that is seriously asked. Even though some others here tend to ignore tough questions when they don't yield simplistic answers such as Bad Jews - Innocent Palestinians.

(Hi Low Notes. :hi: Welcome to DU's I/P forum. Hope you don't get too discouraged.)

Your question breakaleg (What does the belief systems of Palestinian Islamists have to do with the I/P conflict.) could take a long book to answer - but I'll give you the economy version.

Ultimately all behavior is tied to belief. Every behavior choice is the result of an existential belief that one will benefit more from that choice at that moment in one's life - in terms of immediate and future happiness and survival - than any alternative action. (Reason may or may not take part in that decision - but emotion always does.)

As we develop into adults we populate our minds with a hierarchy of beliefs that tend to guide all our immediate behavior decisions - so we don't have to try to reason every little behavior choice out.

The more important the behavior choice - like who to marry, what career to choose, who to hate, how we deal with conflict, how much we are influenced by what others think of us, what we want others to think of us, etc. - the more our higher level core beliefs will determine our behavior - and the less we will use reason for those choices. (Higher level core beliefs carry strong emotions that easily overpower one's ability to use reason for behavior choices.)

If Palestinian culture is centered around hatred of Jews, if Palestinian children are taught that Jews are despicable animals who should be killed, for example, then when those children become adults their important behavior choices will be guided by those deep beliefs. They will have little or no ability to use reason rather than those highly emotional beliefs to choose a best course of action that will lead them and their children to better lives.

I am assuming that you would like to see a better, more peaceful and more prosperous future for all Palestinians.

This Islamic conference recognizes the importance of such core beliefs in allowing more peaceful behavior alternatives to be available to future generations of Palestinians.

Like the organizers of this conference - I personally believe (one of my beliefs) that addressing such issues is possibly the only way that a better future could become available for every person in the ME - not just Palestinians and Israelis. But the Palestinian / Israeli conflict seems to encapsulate and has become the focus of the beliefs of the two opposing sides in this conflict. Esp. regarding the beliefs of both Palestinians and Israelis about the right of Jews to have a state of their own in that region.

I hope this answers your question - and that it was asked seriously.

[breakaleg]

22. Stereotypes

This summit is about Islam. You are using negative stereotypes about Islam, linking it to all Palestinians, claiming all Palestinians hate Jews and it's basically bred into them.

If someone were to say such things about any other ethnic or religious group we'd be strung up. And rightly so. What does it say about our society that it acceptable to say such things about Palestinians without a reaction?

[msmcghee]

23. I didn't think you were asking a serious question.

Why should this time be any different?

I never said one thing about "all Palestinians".

The conference itself stresses the positive aspects of Islam in that those can provide a better set of more positive beliefs for Palestinians to identify with - rather than the more violent exclusionist racist beliefs that do exist in some parts of Palestinian society.

You never even read the links did you? Or you would have known that.

It seems that if any statement by any member of this forum can't be reduced to something less complicated than "Jews bad - Palestinians innocent" - then it just doesn't compute for you, does it?

You said, "You are using negative stereotypes about Islam, linking it to all Palestinians, claiming all Palestinians hate Jews and it's basically bred into them."

That's an outright lie.

[Englander]

31. Suggestion-

How's this for an idea; post all the ridiculously abusive comments, all the personal abuse & blatant
falsehoods, all the stuff aimed at "you", all the mind-reading stuff, all the insulting, patronising &
condescending comments, at the hate-site, & try & keep all the comments that are posted here solely
in the category of "constructive dialogue", or "civil discussion".

[Malikshah]

12. As a South Floridian for the past 8 years...the fact that the summit

takes place in Florida speaks volumes--and not in a good way.

[msmcghee]

20. How about stating the essential connection . .

. . for us - that you seem to see so clearly?

[bemildred]

13. Ms Chesler is always a fun read.

But she does have an axe to grind with Islam, not without her reasons to be sure.

The fact is that the notion that women ought not be treated like farm animals has only recently become fashionable in the "West", and that the opposite was and is ubiquitous almost anywhere and anywhen once humans got past the hunter-gatherer stage. So while it is a sound idea, it is wrong to conflate the issue with Islam, or any other particular human group.

(Edited for clarity.)

[Lithos]

16. She confuses cultural groups with religion

There are plenty of cases where women are treated similarly today by adherents of other religions including Christianity and Judaism. Does not mean that the religion is to blame, but the culture and groups which uses the religion as an excuse.

More simply, people do things, not abstract ideas.

L-

[bemildred]

17. Yeah, wrong target.

I have read 3 of Ms Chesler's books, 2 in the 70s (I think) one in the 90s. She is interesting and sometimes perceptive, but is not dispassionate as one would desire in an academic.

I don't think it's religion at all. Religions are anything people want them to be, treatment of women seem to depend on economics, and sometimes politics, from what I can see, and religions are mostly construed to support whatever those arrangements are. In other words, it appears to me that in this context religion is an after the fact justification for existing social norms determined by other factors.

[msmcghee]

19. Both cultural groups and religion . .

. . can have a profound effect on one's behavior choices. They can both determine one's core beliefs.

For some persons, and in some cultures, religion is just a curious set of beliefs followed by other persons and other cultures.

For others, and in some cultures, religion dictates the most important core beliefs. That is the definition of a fundamentalist religion - to provide the set of core beliefs at the very top of one's belief hierarchy - and therefore to ultimately determine all of a person's most important behavior choices.

[Tom Joad]

21. What is it in Western Culture that makes nations so prone to racism and war?

and even sometimes genocide?

[msmcghee]

24. It is very simple.

Western culture is a product of humans.

Just as Arab culture, and Persian culture, and Asian culture, etc. If you think that war and racism is something that Western civilization invented then you just have not studied history.

[Tom Joad]

25. msm, understandably, you did not read my post, but imagined something else.

"If you think that war and racism is something that Western civilization invented..."

Never said that.

[msmcghee]

26. TJ - You did not read my post.

I'll try to simplify for you.

You asked, "What is it in Western Culture that makes nations so prone to racism and war?"

I answered, "Western culture is a product of humans. Just as Arab culture, and Persian culture, and Asian culture, etc."

i.e. Racism and war have been part and parcel of every human civilization. Since you obviously don't understand that - I added the comment, "If you think that war and racism is something that Western civilization invented then you just have not studied history."

Hope that helps but it's really not that complicated.

[leftynyc]

30. You really think western cultures have a monopoly

on this??? The very current genocide in the Sudan is being committed by Muslims. And as you can be put in prison for merely carrying a bible in Saudi Arabia, racism is hardly just a western problem. And as for war, just how long did the Iraqi's and Irani's kill eachother during their war? Kuwait and Iraq?

[pelsar]

33. nothing......

a little history both modern and old would show you that non western cultures are far more racists than any western country ever was:

you probably know little if anything about the gender apartheid in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the way japan treats its "foreigners" the way China looks upon the japanese, Koreans, etc. Cambodia? Laos, Rwanda, (forgot about that?), How about Algeria, Turkey and the Armenians, iraq and iran, iraq and iraq...the list is as endless as they're are groups.

The western culture has the advantage of a value system actually attempts to modify such behavior

[Shaktimaan]

38. I don't know.

What is it in Eastern Culture that makes those nations prone to the same things?

[leftynyc]

29. I think you're using hyperbole here

I'd like a link to where Christians or Jews beat, stone and hang women from cranes for speaking to men, for showing their faces, for loving who they wish. Yes, women are considered second class citizens in many "cultures" but fanatical Islam is murdering their own women for things you just don't see anywhere else. And they are doing it in the name of G-d. Moral relativism should not be at work here.

[msmcghee]

27. Here is a statement recently issued at this . .

. . Islamic Summit. I post it without comment at this time. It is being called,

*****************************************

The St. Petersburg Declaration

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called "Islamaphobia" in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to

reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostacy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;

eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;

protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;

reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims;

and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.

We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid strictures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine;

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha'is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must chose for themselves.


Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afhin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

[wellst0nev0ter]

28. Seems That Palestinian Arabs Are More Tolerant Than Jews

A Haifa University survey investigating Arabs and Jews' views on one another reveals disturbing results.
The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean.

Over a third of the Jewish students taking part in the survey confirmed that they are afraid of Arabs.

The poll was conducted by Dr. Haggai Kupermintz, Dr. Yigal Rosen and Harbi Hasaisi of Haifa University's Center for Research on Peace Education.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

Not sure if the Arabs are the ones that live inside Israel and not the ones under occupation. If the former, than it goes to show you how a little equal and just treatment can go a long way in creating a co-existing society. If the latter, then you readers of "The Arab Mind" have seriously misjudged your targets.

[pelsar]

32. try reading the survey.....

its about israeli arabs and israeli jews...palestinians are not involved

[wellst0nev0ter]

34. Try Reading My Post

I've already addressed that fact, that granting people some semblance of equal status in a society seems to surprisingly temper radicalism and hatred. Why Israelis and their partisans refuse to acknowledge that simple lesson I'll never know.

[pelsar]

35. you'll never know...

probably because (as i 've read your posts) you seem to express very little understanding of the conflict, the history, the cultures involved

[wellst0nev0ter]

36. If I Don't, None Of You Have Attempted To Correct Me

You seem content on casting empty aspersions.

[pelsar]

40. try reading the survey...

" 1,600 students studying in 22 high schools around the country."
its about israelis...the whole survey....the simple fact that your confusing palestinians in the territories vs arab israelis is probably the most blaring aspect. Other than that drawing some kind of conclusion of an internal survey and then somhow expanding it to include the palestinians in the westbank and gaza as you seem to be, is absurd in the least.

hint: perhaps a survey of what the palestenians think would also be appropriate if you want to reach a conclusion?

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. Never Mind That Some Of Those Arabs

studying in those schools can come from the territories.

In any case, it that is a quibble you have decided to latch onto rather than confront the larger argument: that Arabs that live in free societies seem to have greater tolerance than Jews that live in the same.

[pelsar]

45. like i said ...you dont know much about the conflict....

Never Mind That Some Of Those Arabs studying in those schools can come from the territories.

no they cant.

which would make any conclusion of yours based on a single survey when you dont even understand whos being surveyed rather absurd.

[wellst0nev0ter]

50. *Sigh*

You are really going to attest to the fact that no Palestinian from the territories are educated under the Israeli educational system?

Are you really going to pull that trigger and make a laughingstock of yourself?

Just keep niggling at those unimportant details. You mustn't bother yourself with the larger, uncomfortable truths.

[Shaktimaan]

37. it doesn't show anything really.

You seem to be drawing some pretty firm cause and effect conclusions from this survey. Here's the problem. This survey is just raw data, it doesn't give any indication as to what we can conclude from it or (especially) why.

[wellst0nev0ter]

39. Does Show Why Israeli Arabs Aren't Pulling Terror Attacks

since all Arabs are seemingly the same, according to the OP.

[cali]

41. Really? Where does the OP say that?

Where in the article posted by the OP is that sentiment expressed? In fact, contrary to your ludicrous assertion the article actually points to Muslims who are struggling with Muslim identity. Did you even read the article?

[wellst0nev0ter]

43. Something About How Someone Discovered The "Barbarity" Of Islam

and how the summit being highlighted is attended and promoted by various neocons and reich-wingers sort of tipped me off to its agenda. The notion that you ignored these facts leads me to believe that you yourself have not read the post.

[cali]

44. The title is inflammatory and ridiculous

and there's much in the article that I don't agree with, but your characterization of the article as painting all Arabs the same is absurd. It's not even about 'Arabs'.

[msmcghee]

48. You are right about the title of the thread.

I regret that I did not choose another of the talks given there to highlight the article about the event. But thanks for taking the time to read past the headline. You got it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

49. Are You Really Going To Crucify Me Over Meaningless Semantics?

Typical tactic of the I/P debate. I'll admit the articles are about Muslims, but you and I know what they really mean.

[Shaktimaan]

46. How do you figure?

Walk me though it. Because it honestly looks like you are just making broad based assumptions based on your opinion, which you clearly feel has been validated by this survey of 75 high school students in Haifa.

So, "Why" aren't Palestinian Arabs contributing to terror? (They are, by the way, just not to the extent that non-Israeli Palestinians are.)And how did the data given in this story lead you to that conclusion?

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. actually 1600 students at 22 high schools around the country

"The data was presented at a bi-lingual conference held in Haifa. The study, titled "Perception of 'the Other' amongst Jewish and Arab Youth in Israel" included 1,600 students studying in 22 high schools around the country. "

"The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.
On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

______________

in another poll (Remembering both these polls refer to Palestinians who live inside Israel and hold Israeli citizenship -- people commonly refered to as "Israeli-Arabs"):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

"The poll presented Wednesday showed that 68 percent of respondents said they do not wish to live next to an Arab neighbor, compared with 26 percent who said they would agree.

Responding to a question about Arab friends, 46 percent said they would not be willing to have Arab friends who would visit them at their home.

Some 63 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab civilians as a security and demographic threat, and 34 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab culture as inferior compared to Israeli culture. Half of the population, according to the poll, is anxious and uncomfortable when hearing Arabic on the street.

link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

[Bryan Sacks]

51. It's about 'unclean'

Beyond the question of unhealthiness, cleanliness is of no serious importance, OF COURSE. Think about how rarely you hear this obvious truth articulated.

Interpret uncleanliness how you like, metaphorically or literally. Either way, the unclean are 'unholy' in the minds of those concerned with such stuff. So long as the unclean remain so, they are an existential threat to the 'clean' unless the unclean can be 'purified'.

What has to be gotten over is the absurd and corrosive notion that "cleanliness is next to godliness." Of course, it only has a history of, like, five thousand years, or longer. If you take away the horror of mixing with the unclean in mind or body, you take away a primary source of fundamentalist inflexibility (of all kinds). Fundamentalism, on my reading, is in fact an inflexibility regarding what it takes to be pure.

The concern over purity comes out in many guises. It gets dressed up in assessments of "The Arab Mind" or "The Jewish Character" or "The Dangers of Islam". So when people say 'it's not about ideas, it's about culture', well, that's not entirely correct. Culture is just the institutionalization of conscious ideas and subconscious feelings.

My response is: there is no purity, and if there were, it ain't the end-all. There is very little hope of convincing anyone who believes in the importance of purity of this. Take away the horror of mixing, and the discursive oversimplifications will go too (maybe my own as well :)

I'm all for mixing.

[msmcghee]

52. Wow, a post that addresses some useful ideas.

I like your analysis. However, your remedy . .

"Take away the horror of mixing, and the discursive oversimplifications will go too (maybe my own as well)."

. . is easier said than done IMO.

I suspect that a person's reaction to what they perceive as "clean" or "unclean" are tightly bound to strong emotional centers in the brain. I can see very plausible reasons why they would be instinctive - as early humans through the present who were reviled or repulsed by strange unfamiliar smells and sights probably had a survival advantage over those who did not react as strongly.

I suspect that getting someone to modify their built-in revulsion at "uncleanliness" (or mixing clean with unclean) would be about as easy as getting an alcoholic to no longer crave alcohol - i.e probably impossible.

But I think you have hit upon an important concept. I would think that success could come - not from desensitizing someone to revulsion of mixing (which I suspect is a strong instinctive survival response) - but from helping them move things they have learned were "unclean" into the brain zone where they store "clean" things. I think that's far more achievable. Kind of like how we learn that things like raw oysters, that may have repulsed us as children - when cautiously tried as young adults, perhaps in an attempt to appear more grown-up or sophisticated - can become one of our tastiest pleasures as adults.

For example, I have seen some documentaries about school programs in Israel and the territories where kids from both sides of the green line get together on buses for field trips where they go and study wetland areas that have various animals and plants that are endangered, etc. I think those types of projects are wonderful and should be encouraged. I'm sure there are other good ways of doing it but just being with kids that smell and look different and working with them on a mutually valued project like that could possibly go a long way toward modifying the kind of corrosive "unclean" beliefs in young minds that you discussed.

In a very natural way they will learn to associate kids that smell and look "that way" with fun and exciting adventures that make them feel good.

Thanks for picking up on that concept in the post you responded to.

[msmcghee]

53. Just for the record.

I want to state again my regret that I chose that particular article from many choices as an example of talks being given at the Islamic Summit. Not so much from what she said but for the title which now appears as the title of this thread - and creates a misleading "first impression" of what this summit is about.

If we were allowed to write our own thread titles I would have chosen something far different - that emphasized the difference between the good and life-affirming (enlightened) aspects of Islam - and the darker violent side that is in the news all the time.

Both sides exist however, as they do in all religions that have a strong fundamentalist following. I do not believe that Muslims (or Jews or Christians) as a people are good or bad based on their religion. It would be my hope that through projects like this Islamic Summit - that the many positive and life affirming aspects of Islam are given greater influence and recognition in the future.

I would also hope that the same happens for those unenlightened fundamentalist aspects of Judaism that exist in Israel and the settlements.

Please read the list of goals in post 27 above "The St. Petersburg Declaration" . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x169033#169572

These enlightened goals would go a long way toward making possible a better future for everyone who lives there IMO - and that is my hope.