Misery tempts Palestinian Christians to flee

[eagler]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070312/wl_nm/christians_palestinians_dc

BETHLEHEM, West Bank (Reuters) - Despairing of life under Israeli occupation, many Palestinian Christians are moving abroad, threatening their ancient links to Bethlehem and the land where Jesus was born.



"There is a real fear that 50 years down the road, the Holy Land will be without Christians," said Mitri Raheb, 45-year-old pastor of the Lutheran Church in Bethlehem.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

2. I despise current Israeli policy. I refuse to be accused of being anti-Semetic.

I have nothing against people of the Jewish faith. I have a lot of grievances with the policies of Israel where leaders have bought in to perpetual war and those leaders whose desire for peace is non-existent.

I advise all Palestinians to search out other countries before considering coming to the U.S. because of the bigotry here and the assumption that Christians will be taken for Muslims (except by fellow church members - hopefully).

[eagler]

3. They have bought into perpetual war just as radical Islam

has bought into it.

[eagler]

4. Jerusalem and the surrounding areas

need to be taken out of the hands of Israel and Palestinian control and the city needs to become an international city under its own government and supported by the UN. Its much too diverse and too sacred to so many to be "owned" by any single entity. It must be made accessible to all.

[Shaktimaan]

5. Good lord!

You want to put the UN in charge? Why not the DMV instead?
Seriously, Israel has given access to all and each religion administrates their own holy sites. I honestly can't imagine a more equtable system being implemented, and certainly not by the UN. The UN would at least fail every task without discrimination, I'll give them that.

How about we see how they do in South Lebanon first, at least.

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. actually very few Palestinians (except Jerusalem residents)

from the West Bank and of course the Gaza are allowed anywhere near their holy sites (Christian or Muslim) in Jerusalem.

[eagler]

17. I think that Israel has done a magnificent job of administering Jerusalem

but considering the current Mid East situation and the Muslim fear that israel will try to make the city its capitol - something significant needs to be done to secure peace and stability for all parties in the region. Israeli Zionism along with Muslim Waqf need to defined and addressed by the international community before a true peace can exist. All parties have a stake in the situation and total war is NOT the answer.

[eagler]

18. The UN is only capable of fulfilling its mission to the extent

that participating nations support that mission.That means that its potential for peace is only as strong as we make it to be.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. the Christian Community in Bethlehem are devastated by the apartheid wall

which is dividing up the town with catastrophic affect on the community and local economy. On a personal note, a coworker of a friend of mine - from a Bethlehem Christian family - has seen the wall cut off their families olive grove from the home..It has left her poor old father a complete wreck. It was his pride and joy. And now it's being taken away.

Here is a great website run by the Christian community in Bethlehem:

http://www.openbethlehem.org /



"The Wall around Bethlehem is in actuality part of the so–called “Jerusalem envelope” that starts from the settlement of Bet Horon to the northwest of Jerusalem city all the way to Kfar Etzion settlement in the very south of the Bethlehem District. This section of the Wall will:

Annex the entire western countryside of the Bethlehem District west of the Wall isolating four villages (Battir, Husan, Nahhalin and Wadi Fukin) with their 18,000 inhabitants.

Walaja and Jaba villages, to the north and south respectively, will be completely isolated from Bethlehem, while their lands will be annexed to the newly expanded Occupation municipal boundaries where already existing settlements will expand, and new ones will be built. Six villages, with 20,000 Palestinians, will be isolated from the Bethlehem District.

This new path of the Wall will ensure the annexation of ten settlements comprising of the so-called “Gush Etzion” settlement bloc. All ten settlements, including Bat Ayin, Efrata, Geva’ot, and Betar, will expand on the isolated lands of Bethlehem District.

The Wall in Bethlehem will cut some 4-5 kms deep inside the West Bank, annexing most of what has remained of the District’s lands, creating devastating economic and social effects. "

link:

http://www.stopthewall.org/maps/857.shtml

________________________________



---Two Excellent books from a Palestinian Christian point of view by Pastor Mitri Raheb -- ( who is mentioned above) Pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Bethlehem:

Bethlehem Besieged: Stories of Hope in Times of Trouble by Pastor Mitri Raheb -- Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Bethlehem-Besieged-Stories-Times-Trouble/dp/0800636538/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173764124&sr=1-1

and

I Am a Palestinian Christian by Pastor Mitri Raheb--Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Am-Palestinian-Christian-Mitri-Raheb/dp/080062663X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&qid=1173764124&sr=1-1

_____________________________

--- also an absolutely superb movie about Palestinian Christians:

Salt of the Earth: The Palestinian Christians of the Northern West Bank:

http://www.saltfilms.net/issues.html

[pelsar]

8. and the hamas attitude toward the christians?

...seems any realistic view of the Christians in Bethlehm would want to take into account the demographic, political changes as well as the atmosphere vis a vis the christians and hamas

anything else could only be seen as simplistic propaganda........

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. actually

Clearly the Christian community did not--for the most part--favor Hamas --And please do not interpret anything I say as support for Hamas. I do not support Hamas. The Christian Palestinians I know do not support Hamas either. However they do feel that Hamas has made a genuine effort to be respectful, open and fair toward the minority Christian Community and have opposed Islamist elements who are hostile to them:


link: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.gaza21dec21,0,5714447.story?page=2&track=rss

"Since the Hamas-led government took office in March, it has been very sensitive to the Christian population and has been eager to offer its support whenever it can, condemning the attacks against Christian churches and donating $50,000 for Christmas decorations in Bethlehem.

Mona Qubrosy and her family reflect the interwoven lives of Christians and Muslims in Gaza. Her parents fled Jaffa in Israel during the 1948 war. Today, the family lives in an apartment in Gaza's Christian camp, a tiny enclave of about 25 families."

___________________

Future for Palestinian Christians By Sonia Nettnin

link: http://www.ramallahonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2562

snip:"After several Palestinians attacked five Palestinian churches in September 2006, Hamas announced they would punish anyone who harmed Palestinian Christians or their churches. In addition, security increased around Bethlehem, which has a significant Christian population. The next day several Palestinian Christians received flowers from people in Gaza."

"A recent survey conducted by the Palestinian Centre for research and Cultural Dialogue, (and summarized on OpenBethlehem.org link: http://www.openbethlehem.org/ ) found that “78 per cent of Christians who live in Bethlehem say the emigration is because of Israeli blockade. Findings from the same survey found that 90 per cent of Bethlehemite Christians had Muslims friends and vice-versa. Nine out of ten Bethlehemites said Israel’s wall surrounding their city is for the confiscation of Palestinian land.”

OpenBethlehem.org has recently created several slide-show presentations on the status of their city. With photographs and fact-finding information they show what is happening with the Christian Holy sites as a result of Israeli occupation and settler activity in Bethlehem, especially near Rachel’s Tomb (forbidden to Bethlehem’s Christians and Muslims). Their photo story, “Bethlehem Today” explains that they made the presentation “…in response to the recent accusations by the Israel lobby of anti-Christian discrimination and abuse in Palestinian society.”

In September 2006, the Israeli Government officially annexed the tomb and the area around it and reclassified it as part of Israeli-controlled Jerusalem (OpenBethlehem.org presentation, The Annexation of Rachel’s Tomb: Stories from behind the Walls

snip:"According to OpenBethlehem.org, “US Christians, meanwhile, are likely to be shocked by the discovery that seven out of ten Christians in Bethlehem believe Israel treats the town’s Christian heritage with brutality or indifference.” link: http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=38&Itemid=28

”The Bethlehem poll, which was carried out by the Palestinian Centre for research and Cultural Dialogue, shows on the other hand that more than two-thirds (73.3%) of Bethlehem’s Christians believe that the Palestinian Authority treats Christian heritage with respect. That result will surprise some who believe that the election of Hamas has strained Christian-Muslim relations in the town.”
______________________

"Christian candidate on Hamas ticket
By Motasem Dalloul

link:

http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=18115

Hosam al-Taweel, 40, is a Christian candidate running on the electoral ticket of Islamic resistance group Hamas in Gaza, in the upcoming Palestinian parliamentary elections.

He is competing for one of six seats specially designated for the Christian community in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC).

He worked as a volunteer at the YMCA in Gaza for more than 30 years, serving on its board three times. He is also a regular columnist in the Palestinian daily newspaper, Al-Quds"
______________________

[pelsar]

10. like i said....two sides..

this took me all of 3 seconds to find:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4548312.stm

A few Christians speak privately of harassment, Muslims seizing Christian land and the fear of speaking out against radical groups.

For a jittery hour the gunmen occupied the roof of the building while armed Palestinian security forces gathered in the square below - a scene unusual for Bethlehem, although not uncommon elsewhere in the West Bank.
The episode was reportedly a dispute over unpaid salaries within Mahmoud Abbas' ruling Fatah party.
But a few Christian onlookers were quick to interpret it as a Muslim-driven plan to sabotage Christmas in Bethlehem.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6110498.stm
Publicly Christians here insist there is no friction with the Muslim majority.
Earlier this year though the Islamist Hamas movement came to power.
And in private some say they now dress more conservatively. There have also been fights between Christian and Muslim families

and i've read worse in other places.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. but none of this changes the fundamental complaint of Palestinians

both Christian and Muslim regarding the occupation and the wall. That is the most pressing complaint of Christians and the most pressing complaint of Muslims.

There has always been some cases of friction between the Muslim majority and the Christian minority. But they are united on that most essential element. And it is clear that although there are militant Islamist elements hostile to the Christian minority, I doubt that Hamas would have provided $50,000 toward Christmas decorations if they wanted to sabotage Christmas. But to be fair, the bbc report above mentions Fatah, not Hamas. Hamas and the Christian minority have a fairly good working relationship . And the vast majority of times, probably 99.99%, the two communities of Christians and Muslims live together quite well, much to the consternation of anti-Palestinian propagandist.

[pelsar]

12. i dont think its that simple...

no doubt the economy falling (much do to the wall and other restrictions) increases the friction between communities...its happens all over the world and there is no reason to think it wouldnt happen in Bethlehem...add the addition of hamas and their ideas and the idea of "saving seats in the local govt for people of a certain religion, when the demographics change and the results are inevitable...... (bethlehem)

its not a matter of the two communities living in the past together, their are countless examples of communties "getting along" erupting into violence...things are changing for the worse and the Christians are by no means being skipped over.

anyway...a bit more research on the christian sites show a very different view...i would think they would know something. Your ideal of multiculturalism only works in well established affluent western style democracies that demand that civil rights be the cornerstone.....everywhere else...it usually errupts in violence and discrimination

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/051219a.aspx

"Now, all the leadership and the people in authority are Muslims, and they force their laws, their teaching, their Koran, everything in the courts, in the schools, everywhere…they threaten people; people are afraid to say no," she said.


Hannan said Christians are now being treated as second-class citizens in the Holy Land because Islamists dominate the Palestinian Authority.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. that report is from CBN which is Pat Robertson's organization by the way

and they believe in the destruction of the Mosque and the rebuilding of the Temple so Jesus can return and the Jews will finally become Christians or face damnation. And he believed that Mr. Sharon fell ill because God was punishing him for considering some withdrawals from territory.

[Tom Joad]

15. One of The most fanatical rightwing websites out there

Yet it is cited as something credible.

The founder believes 9/11 happened because god was angry with the aclu.
The founder believes he could leg lift 2,000 lbs
The founder believes in George W. Bush.

That site is credible... but the actual words of Palestinian Christians is not. Such is the "alice in wonderland" mirror world of those who wish to support the occupation, that hurts Christian and Muslim and secular Palestinians.

Many of the measures introduced by Israel is designed to induce emigration by Palestinians. It certainly is the design of the Jewish Settlers to get rid of Palestinians. At the very least to make them move into Palestinian enclaves, if not away from Palestine altogether.

Seems like supporting the Israeli occupation is just an act of desperation these days...
aipac has to reach out to rev hagee (who almost makes robertson look liberal) and then we have this.

[pelsar]

16. oops....

ok so we'll skip over good ole "pats" organization.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. Results of Bethlehem Survey

link:

http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=17

snip:"Results of the Public Opinion Survey conducted by the Palestinian Center for Research and Cultural Dialogue (PCRD)

This survey was commissioned by Open Bethlehem, an international PR campaign for Bethlehem, and covered more than 1000 respondents in Bethlehem, Beit Sahour and Beit Jala. The survey questions covered a variety of aspects that relate to the experiences and attitudes of the residents of the three cities.

The key findings of the survey were as follows:

- 43.1% are pessimistic in different degrees about the future of the city of Bethlehem.
- 20.1% of the Christians say that many of their relatives have emigrated recently, as against 5.4% Muslims responding to the same question.
- 47.8% of all respondents have considered emigrating.
- 12.7% are in the process of emigrating, 15.7% of Christians and 8.3% of Muslims.
- 76.4% believe that the main cause of the emigration of 400 Christian families in the past few years is due to the Israeli aggression and occupation, whereas 3.1% only believe that it is due to the rise of Islamic movements.
- 66% of the Christians believe that Israel deals with the Christian Heritage of Bethlehem with brutality or indifference.
- 73.3% of Christians believe that the Palestinian National Authority deals with the Christian Heritage of Bethlehem with respect.
- 82.5% think that the UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization) should list Bethlehem as an International Cultural Heritage Site."


"The Questions

The first question was directed to Muslims asking if they have Christian friends, 87.5% answered that they do have Christian friends, whereas 12.5% answered that they do not have Christian friends.

The second question was directed to Christians asking whether they have Muslim friends, 92.2% answered that they do have Muslim friends, whereas 7.8% answered that they do not have Muslim friends."


snip:"Concerning the question whether any family member has had land confiscated by the Israeli authorities to build the Wall, settlements or by-pass roads 13.9% answered that they many relatives have had their land confiscated, 26.8% answered that they have some relatives whose land has been confiscated, 8.7% answered that they have one relative whose land was confiscated. However, 54.7% of Christians answered that they have at least one relative whose land was confiscated as opposed to 37.7% among the Muslims. 20.1% of the Christians say that many of their relatives have emigrated recently, as against 5.4% Muslims responding to the same question.

The question whether the respondent did have a friend or relative that was arrested by the Israeli forces for political reasons 65.3% say that at least one of their family members or friends was once arrested for political reasons as opposed to 34.1% who say no. 0.6% gave no answer.
41.5% say that they had at least one friend or family member killed by the Israeli army. 58.5% said they don’t. 53.9% of the Muslim respondents and 32.9% of the Christian respondents answered in the affirmative.

When asked about how Israel deals with the Christian Heritage of Bethlehem 65% of Christians answer that it treats it with either brutality or indifference (rising to 76% for respondents over the age of 60), 4.3% say that Israel has nothing to do with it, while 4.6% express no opinion.

A majority of 73.3% of Christians and 83.3% of the Muslims believe that the Palestinian National Authority treats the Christian Heritage of Bethlehem with respect."

When asked whether the UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization) should enlsit Bethlehem as an International Cultural Heritage Site as they did with the Pyramids in Egypt an overwhelming majority of 82.5% say that the UNESCO should, while 12.3% oppose. 5.2% express no opinion.


snip:"About whether they believe that Bethlehem is a safe place for tourists to be in an overwhelming majority of 81.3% respond that Bethlehem is a very safe or somewhat safe.

The question “Do you believe that the churches should do more to help Bethlehem” the overwhelming majority 86.1% respond positively as opposed to 7.5% who oppose, whereas 6.4% express no opinion."


snip:"About the question “what is the main factor that could help Bethlehem” more than half of the respondents say that it would be international pressure 53%, 18.9% believe that it is change in Israel’s internal politics, 10.2% believe it is local resistance, whereas 7.6% say that it is pressure from Arab Countries.1.9% express no opinion.

The Palestinian Center for Research and Cultural Dialogue (PCRD), was commissioned by Open Bethlehem to conduct this poll on a random group of 1000 Palestinian adults (18 years and older), from the cities of Bethlehem, Beit-Jala, and Beit-Sahour (three cities that form the conurbation of the Bethlehem district).
The margin of error was 3.1%. The percentage of Christian respondents was 59.2% and the percentage of Muslim respondents was 40.8%. The percentage of male respondents in the sample was 49.7% and female respondents was 50.3%

According to the Palestinian Central of the Bureau of Statistics, the city of Bethlehem is divided into 34 residential groups, whereas Beit-Jala and Beit-Sahour are both divided into 20 residential groups each.

The methodology the Palestinian Center for Research and Cultural Dialogue (PCRD) followed was that the Center chose 20 residential groups from the city of Bethlehem, 10 residential groups from Beit-Jala and 10 from Beit-Sahour, a random starting group was chosen in each of the cities, the researchers then moved from one group to the other. That is if the researchers choose to give the questionnaire to group number (1), they would disregard group number (2) and go to group number (3) and so on. And to ensure the random selection of the sample, 25 questionnaire forms were given to each residential group, hence that each residential group consists of about 150 residential units. So the residential unit that did receive the questionnaire was each sixth unit of the group, accordingly 503 individuals participated in the poll from Bethlehem city, 246 individuals from the city of Beit-Jala and 251 from the city of Beit-Sahour.

The Palestinian Center for Research and Cultural Dialogue was careful to have the ratio of the male respondents almost equal to the female respondents, for example if a male was questioned in the sixth residential unit, a female would be questioned in the twelfth unit, and then a male would be questioned in the eighteenth unit and so on. The researchers used the Kish Grid, which is internationally used in opinion surveys."

link for all poll results:

http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=17

.