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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 08:50 AM
Original message
Israel argues it has no responsibility for Gaza
(03-22) 04:00 PDT Gaza City, Gaza Strip -- The Israeli government is arguing in domestic courts that it no longer occupies the Gaza Strip, a designation that under international law holds the Jewish state responsible for the welfare of Gaza's 1.4 million Palestinians.

Israel declined to seek a change in Gaza's legal status with the United Nations following its September 2005 departure from the coastal territory, when it pulled out thousands of Jewish settlers and shut down its military government. The move was hailed internationally as a step toward peace.

But the government is making the case now in order to defend its restrictions on the ability of Gazans to trade and travel. If successful, the legal claim could also make it more difficult for the Israeli military to enter the 140-square-mile region, where Palestinian rocket attacks and arms smuggling have increased sharply since the army's departure.

Israel says its legal argument, which appears in at least two cases pending before the country's highest court, is rooted in security concerns that have grown since the January 2006 election of Hamas to run the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/22/MNG4COPGAA1.DTL&feed=rss.news
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Israel's legal responsibility is quite clear.
http://ochaonline.un.org/cap/webpage.asp?Page=1387
Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel as the Occupying Power bears legal responsibility for the welfare of the Palestinian population. The Quartet noted in May 2006 that the “PA must fulfill its responsibilities with respect to basic human needs … and provision of services”. Over the past decade, the PA has fulfilled this role with the help of the international community. However, should the PA be unable to provide basic services to the population, there could be a renewed emphasis on Israel’s legal responsibilities.
___________________________

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/02/edlattig_ed3_.php
But international law does not permit Israel to hold the keys to Palestinian economic development while it shirks its responsibilities as an occupying power to provide for the Palestinians' welfare. Under the Sharon plan, Israeli forces will continue to surround Gaza on land, patrol its coastline and its skies. That military cordon will allow Israel to continue to control the flow of all goods and people into and out of the territory. Gaza will remain dependent on Israel for water, sewerage, electricity, telephone access, trade and currency, which will remain the Israeli shekel.
.
Even before the uprising began in 2000, movement in and out of the Gaza Strip was nearly impossible except for an ever-shrinking number of Palestinian workers. Today, export crops rot at checkpoints while much-needed imports, including medicine and fuel, are regularly cut off for days or weeks at a time. As long as Israel holds the veto over Gazans' ability to support themselves economically, it will continue to bear an occupying power's responsibility to ensure their welfare. If Israel continues to impose such restrictions, Gaza's economic viability will remain tenuous.
.
The international community for many years has helped to sustain Gaza's Palestinian population through economic aid. But that large-scale assistance does not relieve Israel of its legal obligation to provide for the welfare of Palestinians in Gaza as long as it retains effective control over the territory.
__________________________________________

Instead, Israel has embarked on a campaign to ensure LACK of necessities for the Palestinian people, a campaign of sanctions designed to induce hunger to the poplulation, in order to secure a political end. It is yet another example of State Terrorism.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Outdated article
The article you cited from the International Herald Tribune is from 2004, before the Gaza withdrawal took place.

Israel has not embarked on a campaign to ensure lack of necesities for the Palestinian people.

Sanctions are not designed to induce hunger to the population, nor are they an example of State Terrorism.

Aid to Palestinians Passes $1.2 Billion

RAMALLAH, West Bank Mar 21, 2007 (AP)— International aid to the Palestinians grew from about $1 billion in 2005 to more than $1.2 billion in 2006, despite a boycott of the Islamic militant Hamas government, officials said Wednesday.

<snip>

Israel is pushing for a continued boycott, but Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said Wednesday that "we wholeheartedly support efforts by the international community to upgrade support to the Palestinian people."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2968755&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Damn Straight they make sure Gazans are hungry. And laugh about it to boot.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9785

Can you cite me human rights organizations that have NOT placed primary responsibility on the shoulders of the Israeli regime for the hunger in Gaza?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. In response to your question
No, I cannot cite any such organizations, nor have I disputed any such claims.

The claims I dispute are also not backed up by major human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International.

That human rights organization, while critical of Israeli sanctions, notes that Israel's reason for that policy is their own security.

They note that rocket attacks from Gaza by organizations linked to Hamas have gone up since Israel withdrew its settlers from that territory.

They do not accuse Israel of state terrorism nor do they claim that Israel has undertaken its sanction policy in order to induce hunger among Palestinians.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Amnesty International: Deliberate attacks a war crime
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150612006
Deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip violate international humanitarian law and constitute war crimes, Amnesty International said today.

"Israel must now take urgent measures to remedy the long-term damage it has caused and immediately restore the supply -- at its own cost -- of electricity and water to the Palestinian population in the affected areas," urged the organization. "As the occupying power, Israel is bound under international law to protect and safeguard the basic human rights of the Palestinian population."

The deliberate destruction of the Gaza Strip’s only electricity power station, water networks, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and has major and long-term humanitarian consequences for the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip.

Almost half of Gaza’s inhabitants are now without electricity and water supplies have also been cut in several areas both by the lack of electricity, necessary to operate the water pumps used to extract and deliver water, and by the destruction of water mains as a result of the bombings of bridges and roads.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Amnesty International: Civilian population at risk in Gaza
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150652006?open&of=ENG-352

Amnesty International today urged the Israeli government to immediately cease attacks against Palestinian civilians and civilian property and infrastructure, and to take action to address the growing humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip.

The organization condemned attacks such as those carried out by Israeli forces on the night of 11-12 July 2006, when an entire family -- Nabil and Salwa Abu Salmiya and their seven children aged between seven and 17 -- were killed when the Israeli Air Force targeted their home in a densely populated residential district in Jabaliya, north of Gaza City. More than 30 other residents were injured in the attack.

Israeli officials stated that the air strike had targeted Muhammad Deif, a leader of Hamas’s armed wing, who was reported to have been in the building at the time and to have been injured in the attack. However, the Israeli government and military officials who ordered and carried out the air attack on the house at about 02:30 am must have known that Nabil Abu Salmiya, a university lecturer and a Hamas member, and his wife and children, would be present at their home and that they and residents of neighbouring houses would be killed and injured.

Such attacks against civilians are prohibited by international law and Amnesty International called for them to cease immediately.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Amnesty International: Was there an earthquake in Gaza?
http://blogs.amnesty.org/blogs/israelot_dec06/2006/12/11/1165856760001.html

As we drive into the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun, we are greeted by a scene of destruction: houses reduced to rubble, others with entire walls missing and roads so churned up that they look like freshly ploughed fields. Was there an earthquake in Gaza? No, it was a one-week "visit" of the Israeli army a month ago, during which more than 70 Palestinians, half of them civilians, were killed.

We head to a house where, in the early morning of 7 November, 18 members of the Athamna family, many of them children, were killed by Israeli artillery shells. There we meet the surviving members of the family. They show us the large hole in the roof from where the first shell came through into the bedroom, killing several family members in their sleep. They show us where the other shells -- 12 in all -- fell on and around this and other houses nearby, killing the other victims in the street by the house as they fled.

Dozens of others were injured, many seriously. Ousama Athamna, the father of 2-year-old Dima, who was injured in the attack and who one of us visited in hospital after the attack, is also present. He speaks quietly; there is no anger in his eyes or his voice, only sadness.

His wife was killed in the attack and he tells us that he has not yet found the courage to tell little Dima that her mother is dead. He also tells that another of his young children was also seriously wounded in the attack and is now in hospital in Israel; he would like to visit his little boy, but has not been able to obtain a permit enter Israel to go to the hospital.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. UN warns of Gaza 'breaking point'
Living conditions for Palestinians in Gaza have reached breaking point, a senior UN official has said.

The warning came from Karen Abuzayd, head of the UN Relief and Works Agency.

She said Israeli military action in Gaza over recent weeks was creating suffering and mass despair, rather than any desire for political compromise.

Israel keeps Gaza's borders largely sealed and conducts regular military operations, prompted in part by the capture of an Israeli soldier.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5326378.stm
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-22-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Gaza Humanitarian Crisis - A Joint Statement by Israel 's leading human rights organizations
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20061116_Brief_on_Gaza.asp

Nine Israeli human rights organizations issued an unprecedented joint call to the international community to ensure human rights in the Gaza Strip. The statement comes in light of the dire humanitarian situation there:

* Some 80% of the population is extremely poor, living on less than $2 a day. A majority of the population is dependant on food aid from international donors.

* In the past four months, the Israeli military has killed over 300 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Over half of those killed were unarmed civilians who did not participate in the fighting. Among the dead, 61 were children.

* About 70% of Gaza 's potential workforce is out of work or without pay.

* On 28 June, Israel bombed Gaza ' s only independent power station, which produced 43% of the electricity needed by the residents in Gaza . Since then, most of the population has electricity between 6 and 8 hours each day, with disastrous consequences on water supply, sewage treatment, food storage, hospital functioning and public health.

* The Gaza Strip is almost entirely sealed off from the outside world, with virtually no way for Palestinians to get in or out. Exports have been reduced to a trickle; imports are limited to essential humanitarian supplies.

srael cannot shirk its responsibility for this growing crisis. Even after its Disengagement in 2005, Israel continues to hold decisive control over central elements of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip:
(snip)

The broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip creates a strong case for the claim that Israel 's occupation of the Gaza Strip continues, along with an obligation to ensure the welfare of the civilian population. Regardless of the legal definition of the Gaza Strip, Israel bears legal obligations regarding those spheres that it continues to control. Israel has the right to defend itself. However, all military measures taken by Israel must respect the provisions of international humanitarian law.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. All of these human rights organizations you cited make their point
Without resorting to the sort of hyperbolic statements from your post that I cited.

None make the "state terrorism" accusation you made in your post.

Also, your citations are rather selective. Amnesty International has also said the following:

Hamas’s commitment to the so-called tahadieh ("quiet" or "calm"), which it has largely observed for the past year, is a positive but insufficient step. The frequent launch by Hamas members of Qassam rockets from the Gaza Strip into nearby Israeli towns has terrorized the Israeli inhabitants of these areas. Though mostly ineffective, such rockets have killed and injured several Israelis in previous years. Such practices cannot be accepted in any circumstances and must be immediately abandoned.

At the domestic level, having emerged as the majority party in last week's parliamentary elections, Hamas must now refrain from taking any action which could lead to a worsening of the human rights situation in the Gaza Strip and throughout the West Bank. It should spare no effort to reduce the tension and bring an end to the inter-factional fighting that have cost scores of lives and created a high level of insecurity for ordinary Palestinians.

The conduct of Hamas members, notably their reckless use of weapons and explosives in residential areas, has contributed to the increasing lawlessness and to entrenching a culture of violence. Impunity has become the rule, as the PA has consistently failed to take action to tackle lawlessness and to hold to account members of Hamas and other armed groups – including those loyal to Fatah – responsible for attacks which have killed and injured Palestinian bystanders.

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE210062006

The Israeli and Palestinian leadership can both take steps to improve the situation for all the people who are suffering as a result of this conflict.

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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. We need to get all these parties around a negotiating table
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 07:57 PM by eagler
and put every argument against doing so in the dumpster and for once let nothing get in the way until a lasting and just peace is guaranteed for and by all. there's enough blame to go around for everyone.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
10. Perhaps if they absolve themselves of responsibility they will give back that money they
have no legal grounds to hold and open the border crossing to Egypt they claim they aren't closing. Oh, and then maybe the fisherman can go back to work. I'm sure there are other things as well...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. gaza is a failed society......in the meantime....
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 02:25 AM by pelsar
they were given a chance that was unprecendented....a chance to start governing themselves....infrastructure remained, agri business existing, direct access to an arab country...all they had to do was to NOT attack and try to kill lsraelis.
(i can be cynical here and add, UN personal, foreign journalists, egytian security guards, etc)

thats all they had to do......just concentrate on improving their lives.......

everything else is just foot notes

infact they can still do it...they're now just starting from a worse position....but the problem remains in principle the same: stop trying to kill israelis (and a jump start might be returning shalit, but thats only a suggestion.)
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Years of Israeli dedevelopment in Gaza has made a difference...
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n21/roy_01_.html

A Dubai on the Mediterranean’
Sara Roy on Gaza’s future

Last April President Bush said that Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza would allow the establishment of ‘a democratic state in the Gaza’ and open the door for democracy in the Middle East. The columnist Thomas Friedman was more explicit, arguing that ‘the issue for Palestinians is no longer about how they resist the Israeli occupation in Gaza, but whether they build a decent mini-state there – a Dubai on the Mediterranean. Because if they do, it will fundamentally reshape the Israeli debate about whether the Palestinians can be handed most of the West Bank.’

Embedded in these statements is the assumption that Palestinians will be free to build their own democracy, that Israel will eventually cede the West Bank (or at least consider the possibility), that Israel’s ‘withdrawal’ will strengthen the Palestinian position in negotiations over the West Bank, that the occupation will end or become increasingly irrelevant, that the gross asymmetries between the two sides will be redressed. Hence, the Gaza Disengagement Plan – if implemented ‘properly’ – provides a real (perhaps the only) opportunity for resolving the conflict and creating a Palestinian state. It follows that Palestinians will be responsible for the success or failure of the Plan: if they fail to build a ‘democratic’ or ‘decent mini-state’ in Gaza, the fault will be theirs alone.

Today, there are more than 1.4 million Palestinians living in the Strip: by 2010 the figure will be close to two million. Gaza has the highest birth-rate in the region – 5.5 to 6.0 children per woman – and the population grows by 3 to 5 per cent annually. Eighty per cent of the population is under 50; 50 per cent is 15 years old or younger; and access to healthcare and education is rapidly declining. The half of the territory in which the population is concentrated has one of the highest densities in the world. In the Jabalya refugee camp alone, there are 74,000 people per square kilometre, compared with 25,000 in Manhattan.
......

Since 2000, the economy of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank has lost a potential income of approximately $6.4 billion and suffered $3.5 billion worth of physical damage at the hands of the Israeli army.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Are you claiming Israel doesn't share any blame at all? n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Pelsar, do you think Israel holds any responsibility? n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. israel has some responsability....
i would have preferred that they insist that the gaza/egyptian border be the total responsibility of the egyptians....(egypt wasnt very keen on that idea....), thereby removing any and all responsibility upon israel.

i also think the tax monies should be given to the palestinians, as it is theirs and karni then closed completly......at least until the PA actually has a serious effort to stop the kassams and starts guarding their borders against both kids and jihadnikim that want to cross into israel.

Electricity should be hooked in to the Egyptian grid and not israels, etc etc etc.

that way israel would have no responsibility for their economy and consequently their health. Until that happens israel does have a responsibility for their health, and to maintain a basic economy.
___________________

The actions of past and present do not inspire confidence in any israeli i've ever talked to.....and their actions are their own, nobody forced them to burn the greenhouses, their own universities etc. One has to live up to ones own actions and take responsability for those, we cant do it for them and until that time comes, i would like to see total disengagement and responsability from gaza.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. Authority and responsibility go together.
Israel claims authority over Gaza all the time, it's borders, it's airspace and seashore, the right to come and go when they please and to control who goes in and who goes out, to collect it's taxes and use it's resources. It therefore has responsibility for it too. Nobody is going to buy this crap.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. it's borders?
Israel claims authority over Gaza all the time, it's borders, it's airspace and seashore, the right to come and go when they please and to control who goes in and who goes out, to collect it's taxes and use it's resources. It therefore has responsibility for it too. Nobody is going to buy this crap.

But many of the problems Gaza is having are due to mismanagement and corruption. I mean, come on. They destroyed their greenhouses and now don't have enough to eat. They killed the US contractors working on their water supply and now they don't have enough to drink. And Israel does transfer both electricity and water into Gaza.

Now, I am not saying that Israel bears no responsibility for the fate of the Gazans. But the PA has thus far taken zero responsibility for the running of their own government and this fact is seldom acknowleged.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I am not saying the Palestinians bear no blame for the situation.
Edited on Fri Mar-23-07 10:46 AM by bemildred
They do. I am saying Israel bears blame for the situation too, and for foolishness to boot, as the present policy is not an expression of sound governance, and is pernicious to long-term Israeli interests. The OP is about an Israeli claim to bear no responsibility for Gaza, a truly stupid idea in several distinct ways.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. "Destroyed the greenhouses" myth. Some were damaged, most rebuilt
Israel will not allow fruit to be exported in a timely way.. nothing is earned, people are hungry...

and the Israeli cabinet is happy and laughing.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. were they rebuilt?
I didn't hear that anywhere. I'm sure you understand that I am a little skeptical of it.

Do you have a link?

thx
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Here's an article to ignore & disregard;

Greenhouses in Gaza suffer export blow

By Harvey Morris in Gaza City

Published: March 14 2006 02:00 | Last updated: March 14 2006 02:00

Greenhouses bought on behalf of Palestinians by Jewish American benefactors are losing up to $130,000 a day in export sales because of Israeli restrictions on produce leaving the Gaza Strip, says the company running the project.

Hundreds of tonnes of cherry tomatoes, bell peppers, strawberries and other cash crops destined mainly for the European market have been left to rot after the Israeli military closed the main cargo terminal at Karni on security grounds.

>snip

The project suffered its first setback when gangs looted the greenhouses soon after the Israeli withdrawal.

There was further looting after the Palestinian elections that brought Hamas to power in January, when security guards quit in protest at not being paid.

Mr Abu Ramadan estimated damage to the properties amounted to $3m of the original $14m investment. He said more serious long-term damage, however, related to the closure of Karni. The terminal has been shut for around 40 days so far this year. He said that as of last week his company, which operates on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, had lost $1.25m in sales during the latest closure.

Under an agreement brokered in November by Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, there was to have been guaranteed access for Gaza exports to external markets. The Israeli military has cited security threats as the motive for closing the terminal, including what the army described as an "apparent explosion" in February.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/eecaa504-b2fe-11da-ab3e-0000779e2340.html

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Am I prescient, or am I prescient? ;)
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. Can you imagine living in squalor for 50 years
so your overlords could empty the aquifers and have fresh water in their swimming pools? Living like herd animals in a pen, so that a few thousand occupiers could exercise some absurd notion of what they were entitled to?

I tell you, I think the restraint that was shown is beyond amazing.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-23-07 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Really?
Now, I am not saying that Israel bears no responsibility for the fate of the Gazans.

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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-24-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. of course.
But I think you and I disagree as to what that responsibility entails.

More power than many realize (or would care to admit) lies with the leadership of the Palestinians in shaping their situation. A fair amount of them have consistently placed their own desire for power and greed for wealth above the common good. Arafat being chief among them. So the question ends up being about more than figuring out how much aid and freedom Israel should give the Palestinians to avoid mass suffering in the name of self defense. When seed money that was supposed to be used for building a nation gets diverted into the pockets of the very people hired to speak for everyone, the people who were supposed to be heading up this great endeavor, the average person suffers just as much as he would if the aid were never given in the first place.

So is it Israel's responsibility to ensure the well being of every Palestinian, no matter what? Or does Israel's responsibility end with giving the Palestinians ample opportunity?

It's not so simple. Unless there's a real crisis, one that demands intervention from a humanitarian standpoint regardless of "occupation" or politics, as in Zimbabwe for example, does it serve anyone's long term best interests to have no expectations of competency from the PA? Self-determination requires you to be responsible for your own decisions. Remember the effects of the embargp throughout the 90's on Iraq? Now THAT was serious deprivation. And we never hit upon a satisfactory solution to limit Saddam while also limiting Iraqi suffering. The big difference here is that the Palestinians elected their government.

Inb short, it is not Israel's responsibility to ensure there's not hardship in Gaza. That's the PA's job. (Barring widespread suffering that must be addressed.) Israel must give them some opportunity to help themselves, even if it means tough concessions and doesn't seem fair. Hamas is often not fair either. That's life. We can NOT expect Israel to pay for aiding the Palestinians with their own blood. It is an unreasonable expectation and is certainly not a responsibility that many nations have ever thought of themselves as owning.

For example, when was the last time you heard of the UN troops stationed in southern Lebanon doing ANYTHING to keep Israel from being attacked or keep Hezbollah from rearming? When has anyone ever made Israel their responsibility? Exactly.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Finally, a statement I can agree with.
But I think you and I disagree as to what that responsibility entails.

Clearly, your pov is similar, or the same as the "legal argument" that's mentioned in the op, that
Israel bears no responsibility for the fate of the Gazans, & my pov is the same as Gisha, & B'tselem,
& amnesty, & countless other ngos that provide an objective view of the situation.

"Israel's 'invisible hand' in Gaza

By Alan Johnston
BBC News, Gaza

Although Israel withdrew from Gaza more than a year ago, its control over the lives of Palestinians there is in some ways even tighter than before, a new report by an Israeli human rights organisation says.

>snip

Gisha argues that this means that Israel still has extensive legal obligations for the wellbeing of the territory's population that are not being met.

It says: "Gaza residents know that significant aspects of their lives - the ability to exit or enter Gaza, the supply of medicine, fuel and other basic goods, the possibility to transport crops to export markets, the ability to use electric lights - depend on decisions made by Israel's military."

The report begins by referring to the continued, overt military pressure on Gaza.

Until the ceasefire declared in November, Israeli air raids, artillery fire and armoured incursions led to the deaths of hundreds of Palestinians.

GISHA: REMAINING CONTROLS
*Military pressure
*Effective control over Rafah crossing with Egypt, and frequent closure of Karni border crossing with Israel
*Air and sea blockade
*Control of Palestinian population registry
*Control over aspects of areas of the Palestinian tax system


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6270331.stm

______________________


The scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip

In September 2005, Israel completed the "disengagement plan" that was approved by the government and the Knesset. The two primary components of the plan were dismantling of the settlements in the Gaza Strip and moving the settlers to Israeli territory, and removal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip. After the plan was completed, Israel issued an order declaring the end of the military government in the Gaza Strip. The changes following disengagement resulted in some improvement in the ability of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to run their lives. Most importantly, they are now able to move about freely in most of the territory. However, following disengagement, Israel continued to hold decisive control over important elements of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip, as follows :

1. Air space and territorial waters: Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip. Control of the air space provides Israel with the ability to effectively and easily control actions on the ground, and to interfere with radio and television broadcasts. Control of the coastal area and territorial waters enables Israel , among other things, to restrict the activity of Palestinian fishermen. Israel 's control is also manifested in the need to obtain Israeli approval to operate a seaport and airport, the lack of which impairs freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip and impairs the Palestinians' conduct of foreign trade.

2. Population registry: Israel continues to control the joint Gaza Strip-West Bank population registry. Formal authority for administering the population registry was transferred under the second Oslo Agreement, of 1995, to the Palestinian Authority, but in practice, Israel continued to hold most of the powers regarding the registry. Almost every change in the registry made by the Palestinian Authority, except for the registration of children whose two parents are residents of the Occupied Territories , requires the prior approval of Israel . Israel does not recognize changes made by the Palestinian Authority without its approval. The same has been true following disengagement. By controlling the population registry, Israel continues to determine who is a "Palestinian resident" and who is a "foreigner." Also, Israel requires the Palestinian Authority to obtain its approval before making any change in the address of a resident of the Gaza Strip who wants to move to the West Bank . This control of the population registry significantly affects a number of areas of life.

3. Entry of "foreigners": Despite the handover of the Rafah border crossing between the Gaza Strip and Egypt to the control of the Palestinian Authority, Israel continues to control the entry into the Gaza Strip of persons who are not deemed residents of the Occupied Territories . According to the November 2005 agreement between the PA and Israel , the Palestinian Authority may permit entry into the Strip via Rafah only to "Palestinian residents," i.e., individuals who are registered in the Palestinian population registry and hold Palestinian identity cards. Also, the Palestinian Authority must prevent the entry of Palestinian residents if Israel opposes their entry for security reasons. To ensure compliance with the agreement, European observers are posted at the Rafah crossing.

"Foreign" residents, except those in a few categories, are only allowed to enter the Gaza Strip via the Kerem Shalom and Erez crossings, which are under Israel 's sole control. Control over the entry of "foreigners" enables Israel to continue to control family unification between Gazans and their spouses who are foreign residents. Also, Israeli control plays a decisive role in social and economic systems, which rely on the presence of experts from abroad.

4. Movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank: Israel continues to maintain complete control of the movement of people and goods between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank . This is the case also when the movement does not take place across Israeli territory. Israeli control is based on a military order that classifies the entire West Bank as a "closed military area," as to which entry and exit requires a permit issued by the military. Residents of Gaza who are caught in the West Bank without a permit, even if they have lived in the West Bank for years and established families there, are considered to be staying illegally in the area and are expelled to the Gaza Strip. As noted above, changing the address on an identity card from one area to the other requires Israel 's approval. In addition, Israel classifies many West Bank residents as "persons forbidden to go abroad," which also prevents them from going to the Gaza Strip. Ongoing control of movement between the two areas is decisive in light of their mutual dependence, given that the two areas have functioned over the years as one territorial unit. The dependence is conspicuous in a number of key areas, such as public administration, health services, higher education, and trade. Also, most Gazans have close family and social ties with persons living in the West Bank , and vice versa.

4. Imports and exports: Israel continues to exercise complete control over the movement of goods into the Gaza Strip. The three crossing points designated for this purpose – Karni, Sufa, and Kerem Shalom – are under Israel 's sole control. Rafah Crossing, the administration of which was handed over to the Palestinian Authority, has a terminal for the crossing of goods, but according to the November 2005 agreement, the crossing is limited to exports. The importance of the PA's independent ability to export goods via Rafah Crossing is limited, given that most of the exports are intended for Israel or are shipped abroad via Israeli ports. As a result, most exports pass through Karni. Israel 's almost complete control of the movement of goods to and from the Gaza Strip has far-reaching consequences: Israel 's decision to close the commercial crossings, a frequent occurrence, paralyzes the Gaza Strip economy and causes a shortage of basic goods, including food and medicines.

5. The tax system: Relying on the arrangements made in the Paris Agreement (1994) between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Israel continues to control most elements of the taxation system of the Gaza Strip: Israel is responsible for setting the VAT and customs rates on goods intended for consumption in the Gaza Strip, collecting these taxes for the Palestinian Authority, and transferring the tax monies to the Palestinian Authority each month. These powers enable Israel to punish the Palestinian Authority by stopping the transfer of the tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, which impairs the PA's ability to carry out basic functions of government such as paying salaries and providing humanitarian assistance. Israel also controls the granting of exemptions from customs and VAT to non-profit humanitarian-aid organizations for products and equipment donated to them from abroad. This power is extremely significant: if not granted the exemption, an organization would have to pay the taxes that the importer would have to pay when the goods enter the Gaza Strip at one of the crossing points controlled by Israel .

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Gaza_Status.asp

________________________________


Israel and the Occupied Territories: Amnesty International calls for international action to prevent human rights deterioration in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

Amnesty International is calling on the governments of states who are High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, which concerns the protection of civilians in time of war, to take action to prevent a further dramatic worsening of the human rights situation of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The organization is concerned that the recent decisions by the European Union (EU) and the United States (US) to sever financial support to the Palestinian Authority (PA) could have very serious consequences impacting on the health, education and other economic and social rights of Palestinians living under Israeli occupation. According to a World Bank study published last month, the Palestinian economy, already critically weakened by years of conflict and continuing Israeli controls, is expected to shrink by a further 27 percent by the end of 2006 as a result of the termination of EU and US funding to the PA.

>snip

The fact that Israel is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the population in the occupied territories does not mean that the international community has no role in upholding human rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In addition to their responsibility as High Contracting Parties to ensure that Israel respects its obligations under the Geneva Conventions, states have duties under international human rights law.

>snip

Numerous reports by the World Bank and other UN bodies have pointed to Israel’s stringent restrictions on the movements of people and goods within and between the Occupied Territories – imposed on grounds of security - as the main cause of the steep increase in Palestinian unemployment and poverty over recent years. These restrictions continue to increase with the West Bank now effectively sectioned into several cantons - North, Centre and South, East and West – each separated from the others, and between which Palestinians are not permitted to move freely. Meanwhile, Israel’s closure of the Karni crossing into the Gaza Strip has seriously disrupted the movement of Palestinian goods engendering further economic hardship.

Amnesty International is continuing to call on the Israeli authorities to meet their obligations under international humanitarian and human rights law, including by lifting the unnecessary, disproportionate and arbitrary restrictions currently placed on the movement of Palestinians and of goods in the Occupied Territories.

http://news.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150352006?open&of=ENG-2D2
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Who couldn't see this coming 2 years in advance? n/t
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. which part?
that the day israel left, the attacks would increase on israel, across the border and keep on happening?

or israeli reacting?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I could have written the script myself.
Israel creates slave economy
Isarel sucks the life blood out of Gaza until it's more of a liability than it's worth.
Israel unilaterally leaves knowing chaos will ensue
Israel paints its leaving as a great "sacrifice"
Israel then blames Palestinians for the ensuing mess
Israel will than argue that it can *never* leave the WB -- look what happened in Gaza!!

Blah blah blah.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. seems rather one sided.... with not much sense....
Israel sucks the life blood out of Gaza until it's more of a liability than it's worth
care to elaborate?...gaza has no natural resources of any real value....so what "life blood was sucked out?

Israel unilaterally leaves knowing chaos will ensue
coordinated with the the PA....what so many were telling israel that they have to leave....so now israel to blame for leaving?...maybe make up your mind...leave or stay?

Israel paints its leaving as a great "sacrifice"...so? how israel "paints" its moves is israels business

srael then blames Palestinians for the ensuing mess..well duh!..palestinians shooting palestinians, shooting egyptians, UN personal, etc sure isnt israels responsability....maybe its the little green men?

Israel will than argue that it can *never* leave the WB -- look what happened in Gaza!!..yep, thats exactly what were saying...and so are a few palestinians in the westbank....

your blah blah..is a bit short of what us westerners call: "responsability for ones actions"......or taking advantage of what you've got..

blaming someone else for their problems isnt going to help the palestinians any, the spokesman for hamas has some interesting points:

"Anarchy, wanton killing, land steeling, thuggery … is the occupation responsible for all?," he asked, saying that the Palestinians should stop espousing conspiracy theories which "limit our thinking."

Hamad appeals to leaders of Palestinian factions saying that resistance against Israel is worthless when "the land is full with anarchy, corruption, thuggery, and gang killings. Isn't building the homeland part of the resistance?"


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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. Surely a bluff by Israel
If Israel truly has no responsibility, why does its scope of control in the Gaza Strip include the following??

1. Air space and territorial waters
2. Population registry
3. Entry of "foreigners"
4. Movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank
5. Imports and exports
6. The tax system


Why doesn't Israel just take that step toward peace and give the Gazans their Freedom and Liberty? All rockets will stop once they have control over their lives...

I'm sick and tired of the I/P sellf imposed crisis.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Sometimes statements made here are at least worth a good laugh.
"Why doesn't Israel just take that step toward peace and give the Gazans their Freedom and Liberty? All rockets will stop once they have control over their lives..."

You must mean like the way all the rockets stopped from S. Lebanon once Israel left. It's amazing that anti-Israelites can say things like this with a straight face even when the totality of evidence in the world says the exact opposite.

I guess I missed the statements by Hamas that if Israel simply allows the borders to open up then peace will reign over the land. But maybe you can give me a link. All I've been noticing is the increase in the number of smugglers getting caught bringing weapons and explosives in through tunnels under the border and Hamas' statements that they intend to keep attacking Israel until it is gone from ME.

At least we're both sick and tired of the I/P self imposed crisis. That's been the only significant product of the Palestinian economy for forty years now. They do have good marketing for it.
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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. No I'm not anti-Israelites...!!
I'd just like to see an end or at least an effort to reach an end to this conflict...

Israel has never left all of South Lebanon... and maybe they should if that will take away Hizbullah justification to fire rockets.

I personally believe that Freedom does a lot of good. Look at South Africa for example.... Look at us.

As we see from the above article Israel continues to have significant control over Gaza. I believe it's justified because rockets and suicide bombers have not stopped! What I'd like to see is both sides moving toward bringing an end to the firing of rockets and Israels "invisible" control of Gaza...

Nothing hurts me more than seeing that both sides are not communicating officially. Peace negotiation must never stop! When I see Israel talking to Fatah leaders, I feel it is more a sham intended purely to de-legitimize the Hamas Government, as opposed to discussions intended to move the peace process forward.


It's fair to assume that both Israelis and Palestinians feel the other wants to eliminate them.... But what is needed to end this fear? A fear which is closer to fantasy than reality because neither side wants to eliminate the other.

Sound very much like the fear bush&co have instilled in America with their lies, with many now feeling that a withdrawal from Iraq means Al-Qaida will come and attack America.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. then you dont get it
Israel left lebanon to the UN demarcated intl border

hizballa decided on their own that, that wasnt enough..and spend 6 years shooting at israels on the border periodically.....care to explain that?
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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I thought that happened recently (2 years ago)
Didn't realise Israel pulled back to the UN border 6 years ago.

I find hizbullas position very much like Israel, neither will give up fighting the other side, hence it's good the UN is now position between the two. Maybe the same should happen between Israel and the Palestinians.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Hell, at least turn over their tax money!!!!!!!!!! n/t
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-25-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Kaal, don't forget that the in the West, *response* to occupation is much more
important than the occupation.

Remember, you have to think backwards!
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. thank you...that's the second time in the last 24 hours you've said what
I've been thinking and wanting to say for the past several months.

I will just have to learn to think backwards more often.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. It's good to remember sometimes...
That just because someone is a liberal it doesn't mean they are any more informed than someone who gets all of his news from Rush.

Why doesn't Israel just take that step toward peace and give the Gazans their Freedom and Liberty? All rockets will stop once they have control over their lives...

Hey, they had control over their lives before the occupation, didn't they? Do you remember whether or not they were involved in attacking Israel back then?
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-26-07 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. EU observers: Keep Rafah open
If Israel continues to close the Rafah border terminal, the European Union will need to reconsider extending its observer team's presence in the Strip, Gen. Pietro Pistolese, commander of the Border Assistance Mission, said Sunday.

In an exclusive interview with The Jerusalem Post, he said if Israel kept the terminal closed to the point where it was no longer functional, the EU might decide it was no longer worth maintaining 70 observers in the Gaza Strip.

>snip

Israel maintains control of the terminal through its ability to close the nearby Kerem Shalom crossing between Israel and Gaza, which prevents the observers from entering the PA. The EU personnel, who work in shifts, live in a hotel in Ashkelon.

Pistolese said the EU Council in Brussels would also need to discuss whether to extend the observers' mission, from a financial point of view.

He said the situation had recently improved and he was hopeful that Israel would do more to permit the observers to keep the crossing between Gaza and Sinai open most of the time.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173879172729&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
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