Pilots Who Say No to Assassination, The Magnificent 27

[Wwagsthedog]

Pilots Who Say No to Assassination
The Magnificent 27
By URI AVNERY

A year and a half ago, a small group of Israelis decided to break a deeply entrenched taboo and bring up the subject of war crimes. Until then, it was self-evident that the IDF is "the most moral and humane army in the world", as the official mantra goes, and is therefore quite incapable of such things.

The Gush Shalom movement (to which I belong) called a public meeting in Tel-Aviv and invited a group of professors and public figures to discuss whether our army is committing such crimes. The star of the evening was Col. Yig'al Shohat, a war hero shot down over Egypt in the Yom Kippur war. His damaged leg had to be amputated by an Egyptian surgeon. Upon his return, he studied medicine and became a doctor himself.

In a voice trembling with emotion, he read out a personal appeal to his comrades, the Air Force pilots, calling on them to refuse orders over which "the black flag of illegality is waving" (a phrase coined by the military judge at the Kafr Kassem massacre trial in 1957). For example, orders to drop bombs on Palestinian residential neighborhoods for "targeted liquidations".

More........

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery09292003.html

[tinnypriv]

1. One of the original 27 has dropped out

A Brig-General I think. He's been replaced by a Lt-Col. So it's still 27, but not the original 27.

These pilots are under a huge amount of pressure now. They're getting ripped every day in the papers (letters, op-eds etc).

[pretzel4gore]

2. Israel!

maddening she may be when brutes like Sharon contrive to 'lead' her (as is true of USA under BFEE) Israel still is a noble enterprise, and the 'refuseniks' bring to life why...
a 2 state solution can never work, as it entrenches the extreme elements on both sides, who then resort to terror (which is soooo easy when there are so many dew-eyed kids around to be spiritually corrupted)
The Palestinians should be the most AGGRESSIVE in defending Israel, founded as a home for those oppressed beyond toleration; and the Jews should be the most AGGRESSIVE advocates of their Arab brothers' right....
Aint that what the Bible (Torah)/Koran are all about?

[Fight_n_back]

3. Since you DU guys say that

Israel is a facist, apartheid, dictatorship run by madmen, Im sure these guys will be executed without trial.

[mike_c]

4. I think they only do that...

...to Palestinians.

[Fight_n_back]

5. Then they are really bad at it

because 20% of Israel is Palestinan. But you knew that because you read as much as possible on the issue.

[Resistance]

8. I think mike meant

the Palestinians who are in the way of Israel's goal of stealing the rest of the O.T.

[mmm]

6. They are heroes, aren't they!

I wanna buy these guys a pizza and cut them a nice check.
Hows about sending some of our tax dollars their way.

[tinnypriv]

7. Which DU guys?

Name 'em.

[Resistance]

9. don't hold your breath

it's obvious that Yang has nothing to go on except distortions and mischaracterizations.

[Fight_n_back]

13. your post

is delicously ironic.

[Darranar]

14. So you're implying...

that Resistance has called Israel "a fascist, aparthied dictatorship ruled by madmen?"

When has Resistance ever called Israel a dictatorship? And I doubt he's called Israel fascist...

[Fight_n_back]

16. Thats not what I am implying

I am implying that his post was ironic.

[Darranar]

17. Well, there's two ways it could be ironic...

at least two ways that I can see. So you DON'T claim that Resistance has called Israel a fascist aparthied dictatorship ruled by madmen? If so, who has?

[Fight_n_back]

18. Please see

post #12...

then take a shower

[Darranar]

20. STILL no "fascist dictatorship" in there...

Certainly an insensitive and incorrect post, but it doesn't call Israel a dictatorship.

[Fight_n_back]

22. You got me

"just one example of the "purity of arms" of another racist, apartheid, regime"

doesn't say dictatorship....

Of course, by any logic, the poster who put that up would most certainly be oppossed to Yassir Arafat running a nation.....

[Darranar]

23. Yasser Arafat...

hasn't abused an occupied group of people for fifty years.

[Fight_n_back]

26. HAH!

Unless you call targetted assasination of dissidents, embezzlement, refusal to share power "abused". And thats just what he does to his people. Not the Lebanese, Jordanians or the Jews who used to live in the West Bank. Besides, that is a bit of an arbitary line that only an occupation is bad. That being a brutal dicatator that assisinates ambassadors and government officials of neighbor governments and sponsors terrorism is not bad because he "could be worse". What kind of standard is that?

And please learn to read a calender....

[Darranar]

27. Oops...

sorry. Make that 36 years.

True enough.

[MariMayans]

34. HAH!

What the hell are you smoking? Here is a hint. Get your bullshit agitprop out of the last twenty years or so and quit believing in a bunch of disproven, zionist propoganda from back when it was still possible to believe that the first intifada was some manufactured event created by Arafat with his guns at peoples back since he and the entire PLO left for Lebanon and no one changed opinions at all.

After he left for Lebanon things only became worse, even the most commited propagandist quit delivering such lines years ago. It became quite obvious that the idea of Arafat of some sort of dictator who was hated by a Palestinian population that just loved Israeli domination was debunked (and anyone serious should have realized it was garbage to begin with).

The only ambassador I can think of is Shlomo Argov who was killed by an Iraqi secret service agent in the employ of Abu Nidal (sentanced to death by the PLO and quite the hunted man). The response to his death was to bomb refugee camps by the IDF.

This begs the question: What would the Israeli's have called it if the RAF had bombed DP camps over Lord Moyne. I think terrorism would be appropriate and I don't doubt that if the Brit's had been as barbarous it would still be the term used today.

[Fight_n_back]

35. Quite a strawman you built for yourself Ab

I didn't claim hardly any of the things you claim I claimed.

Arafat killed two US ambassadors as well as a Jordanian Foreign Minister as well as an attempt on the King of Jordan.

But you know that and are playing obtuse. There is no reason for a progressive to defend Yassir Arafat.

[MariMayans]

36. spell out your accusations then

defending Arafat is at least as problematic as defending any of the leaders of Israel.

I dare say it's easier, but what are your accusations? No need to be cryptic.

[Fight_n_back]

39. Read my original post

nt

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

42. Thank you for your kind words

you show yourself to be a true progressive.

[Fight_n_back]

15. The rebuke to this guy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=16808&mesg_id=16817&page=


was only more deafening than a Marcelle MArceau concert.

[Darranar]

19. Oh, him?

He called Israel an aparthied satte. i don't see "fascist", "dictatorship", or "madmen" anywhere in that post. I assume you can do better thant that?

[tinnypriv]

24. You're not serious, surely?

:thumbsup:

Oh wait, you are aren't you?

You're really falling back on the old "silence is deafening" argument? :D :D :D

To back up the moronic assertation that a bunch of "DU guys" call Israel a "facist dictatorship"? :D :D :D :D

:beer:

Run along.

[Fight_n_back]

28. You are really

quite silly aren;t you.

Say something postive about Israel...I dare you.

Read those threads and see where people AGREEd with him. Noone has to use a "silence is deafening" argument when someone who advocates the ZOG postion is APPLAUDED.

Shouldn't you be trying to sneak money out of your Mom's purse about now, little one?

[tinnypriv]

29. Er

Then:

"The rebuke to this guy was only more deafening than a Marcelle MArceau concert"

Now:

"No-one has to use a "silence is deafening" argument"

...

You could at least try and keep your story straight for longer than 30 minutes. :dunce:

Wait, are you Bob Novak in disguise? :D

I'll only say something positive about Israel if you DOUBLE dare me. :eyes:

Get a clue.

[Fight_n_back]

30. Duh

Someone can use an argument and not think it is required to do so.

Read the posts that defend the ZOG argument yourself.

You are locked in a logic loop.

Let me know when you pay your own rent so I'll know when to start taking you seriously.

[tinnypriv]

31. No double dare?

Damn, I had my Triple Stamp No Erases ready right here baby! :D

[Fight_n_back]

32. That would be like

pissing into the wind. You wear our "distaste" on oyur sleeve.

[tinnypriv]

37. I can't afford long-sleeved shirts

I spent all my money on rent.

[MariMayans]

12. big deal

German extermination camp duty was voluntary and ten percent opted out. They even tried to weed out the sadists (who made up another ten percent according to disciplinary records). Some of them even wrote memoirs about how tortured and conflicted they were.

Just one example of the "purity of arms" of another racist, apartheid, regime.

[Herschel]

10. Treason

They will be dealt with.

[Darranar]

11. Uh-huh!

We should extra-judicially assasinate them, bulldoze their houses, and imprison their families - because they stood up for what they believed.

Thank You, Pilots!

[LastDemInIdaho]

21. The military does not let its soldiers dictate missions or orders

These souls need to find a more suitable occupation where they can refuse orders without reprise. The military is not for everyone and these guys should have read up on the rules before they joined.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

33. ??

Israel has cumpulsory service.

Its not like the US where people can cheer war from the safety of their FOX newsroom.

[LastDemInIdaho]

38. I know but members have a choice in their service role

If these pilots want to pretend to know more than their leaders then they may want to choose a different role.

It's not like Israel can just let the terrorists hide behind the kids and innocents everytime they complete their mission of murdering innocent Israelis. The Palestinians could also refuse to let the terrorists hide among them. Israel has no choice but to go after these terrorists and the pilots that refuse to help Israel survive need to leave the country or fight to defend it.

[Fight_n_back]

41. Sir

one of the frustrations about this issue is that people say things in this context that they don't mean anywhere else. Israel has many choices on how to deal with terrorism and pilots have the same right as any soldier to not carry out an order. They will pay a penalty for doing so.

Love it or leave it does not work in an open society. If that becomes the norm then the terrorists win.

One option to deal with terror coming from the territories could be to deal with West Bank and Gaza Arabs the same way Arab nations and Iran deal with Israelis. Don't allow them to ever enter the country.

Of course, if Israel did this it would be condemend by everyone here and throughout the world but that is an entirely different problem.