Kollek was British informer

[Scurrilous]

Former mayor of Jerusalem helped British troops in their 1940s crackdown against right-wing Zionist groups, Irgun and Stern Gang, that operated underground

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3382779,00.html

<snip>

"Teddy Kollek, the legendary mayor of Jerusalem, lent a hand to the British authorities in their 1940s in their crackdown against right-wing underworld movements that sought to drive the British out of Palestine, secret MI5 documents have shown.

Kollek, who died three months ago, supplied the British intelligence agency with information about the activities Irgun and Stern Gang.

Beyond intelligence about the clandestine activities of the two groups, Kollek tried to help the British capture one of their most wanted men: Irgun leader Menachem Begin.

Begin commanded Irgun from 1944 and 1948.

According to the newly released files, Kollek was instrumental in leading to the arrests of dozens of Irgun and Stern Gang members, the confiscation of arms, and the thwarting of numerous attacks against British interests."

[bemildred]

1. So they waited until he was dead to let the secret out? nt

[HamdenRice]

2. That's pretty common

Not to ruin someone's reputation while they are alive. It could also have been dangerous, because there might still be some peope alive who would want revenge.

[bemildred]

3. Yeah, but why let it out at all?

All of a sudden this "secret intelligence" stuff pops up when the fellow is dead and no longer in a position to refute it. What was the point of the release? Did some sudden dedication to letting the truth be known overtake them now that it was safe to do so?

[pelsar]

4. no surprise...

which is why its no big deal....the hagana helped the british arrest irgun and stern members.......no secret, just some history.

[bemildred]

5. I am always suspicious when a government intelligence agency,

which means their main purposes in life are to spy on people and mislead and lie convincingly, is suddenly ovecome with an impulse to keep the public informed. You won't talk me out of it.

[HamdenRice]

6. To avoid that, archives usually release files on schedules

A certain category of files will be released when they are for example a decade old. Files like these intelligence files will be released much later.

From the article it appears that this was a regularly scheduled release of intelligence files.

[bemildred]

7. Perhaps so.

Iwould make it a "regularly scheduled release" too.
:-)

[pelsar]

8. you might notice..

the complete lack of reaction in israel.......no radio, no newspaper...it will probably make it into the friday paper as some kind of filler, but other than that......

(sorry to spoil the conspiracy theory you looking for...)

[bemildred]

9. Paranoia can be fun on a slow news day.

You should try it.

[pelsar]

10. yea that can work....

i'll get out my tin foil hat just to shield me from the stronger ones....

[eyl]

11. Not necessarily

while I don't know if Kollek's participation specifically was a secret or not, it's hardly a secret secret that during the 40s the Haganah (of which Kollek was a member) turned over members of the more extreme groups to the British. Look up the Saison.

[HamdenRice]

12. One of the interesting themes in the Israeli-Palestinian dialogue a few years back

and in the American columns that cover Israel, was the idea that the PLO had to do what Haganah did after independence was achieved -- namely decide whether they were going to be a state or a permanent liberation movement. And that Israel turned on the extreme groups with a vengeance, even shelling and sinking a ship that Begin was on. Basically they were saying its time for the PLO to turn on Hamas with the same kind of vengeance.

So this disclosure wasn't really surprising to people who know about Israel's early history.

[pelsar]

13. whats even more interesting...

is listening to the palestinians prisoners in israeli jails. You dont see it in print, but when they get interviewed on israeli tv its very interesting. Seems many of them are now going to the university (israeli) and are learning how to create a state, and they've said it very clearly that following israeli footsteps is in principle the right way (this was the leader from fatah)

[Shaktimaan]

14. Yes, this is not exactly breaking news. It should also be mentioned,

that while the Haganah initiated "the hunting season," to eliminate terrorist factions like the Irgun and Lehi, Menachim Begin took the stance of not practicing retribution or violent actions against fellow Jews, even after the Luftania (or whatever that ship was named, I don't remember) which was ferrying a large shipment of arms to the Irgun, was sunk. It's important to note that for the most part "hunting season" consisted of kidnapping Irgun and Lehi and turning them in to the British, not assasinating them. So while there was certainly strife between these factions, there was also an implicit recognition that they were all on the same side, working towards the same goal, so inter-factional violence of the sort we're seeing now between Hamas and Fatah did not occur.

As far as the PLO turning on Hamas in a similar way, it 'aint gonna happen. For one thing, there's no British to turn them in to. We also have to take into account the fact that neither Hamas nor Fatah seem committed to a non-violent approach towards each other and if Fatah decided that it was their duty to liquidate Hamas it would almost certainly spark a civil war. It also seems kind of unlikely that these factions will ultimately be willing to put their differences aside to unite for the good of the nation. (And I'm not talking about shared power or a unity government. I'm talking about UNITING, as the Haganah and other militias did for the good of Israel.)

It's because of these differences that I find it funny when people try and describe the limited terrorism committed by early Zionists as being the equivalent of modern Palestinian terrorism.

[pelsar]

15. the differences are far greater than the similarities...

whereas both preisrael and prepalestine (and probably pre anystate) has different groups with their own vision of the future state, the jews were pretty much on their own. And coming out of the holocaust there was a predominate ideal that whatever the ideology "they were all jews and needed a state".

For the palestinians the interference from outside states to the various factions is a very serious factor, not to mention other intl political groups, each with their own agenda. I think it keeps the friction between the groups going as they supply them with guns, ideology and the means, while ignoring and/or deeming irrelevant the long term implications of such.

They probably do need a "civil war". Obviously they've gone past the hagana version of just arresting and now have two very strong groups (and multiple subgroups), that can veto the others political moves, either by violence or by threatening violence....and it seems that culture is deeply imbedded within.

I see two aspects hindering them: any "civil war" or political takeover. The first is using israel as a means to "stick together". It hinders any of them to make some serious commitments to their own or making a real political decision to the others as well. As they will be labeled traitors (and they may very well find themselves losing members....).

The outside states, the para militaries, the "left" that are 'feeding them."....they guns, the money, the ideologies that tell all the groups to keep on fighting for your ideology even though history and present events show them to be a failure. Those ideals dont just stop with israel, they also affect how they react to each other. This idea of keep on fighting no matter the conseqences.....even if you keep on losing.

A sad symbol of that is in gaza where they built two universities: one for hamas one for fatah. In israeli jails they do the same: seperate sections (their requests) for the various ideologies. The constant seperation only tends to increase the friction.

[Englander]

16. Misleading comment by Ynet, there.

"Newly released files" means "files released in March, 2006"

Files of Jewish interest

>snip

Irgun

This collection of files documents the Security Service´s monitoring of the activities of Irgun, the Jewish organisation involved or implicated in numerous acts of terrorism in the closing years of the British mandate in Palestine. The file covering the pre-war and Second World War period (KV 5/34, 1938-1946) is largely concerned with tracking the changes to the leadership of Irgun, its relationship with Revisionist groups, and assessing the strength of Irgun. The file includes reports of Irgun terrorist activities, which were suspended for most of the war (Irgun leader David Raziel served with the allies and was killed in action in 1941) but resumed in 1944, around the time that Menachem Begin assumed the leadership. The file includes an Irgun propaganda leaflet which addressed Palestine´s Arab neighbours (serial 33a) and shows that Teddy Kollek, the future mayor of Jerusalem, was in contact with the Defence Security Officer in Palestine (e.g serials 57c, 63zc and 67ab).

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2006/march/jewish.htm

[bemildred]

17. 'The truth about Kollek is out'

A former leader of the pre-state Irgun underground that fought to drive the British out of Mandatory Palestine said Thursday that newly declassified British intelligence information indicating that the late Jerusalem mayor Teddy Kollek aided British authorities in their 1940s crackdown against the Zionist underground movement constituted a long awaited outing of "hushed up" history.

"Now the truth is finally crumbling out. It took years, but the truth is finally seeing the light," said Mordechai Tzipori, a one-time Irgun commander.

Tzipori was deported by the British in 1944, along with hundreds of other Jewish activists, and spent four years in Africa. He was only allowed to return after the establishment of the state.

---

"The policy of the Hagana at the time, eager to gain the confidence and support of the British, was not to allow any activity by splinter groups, and they actively collaborated with the British, giving them lists of names of the Jewish organizations," said Yizhak Avinoam, a former Irgun commander in Jerusalem.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1173879209827&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull