Without Borders (Uri Avnery)

[Violet_Crumble]

INCREDIBLE! In Palestinian schoolbooks, there is no trace of the Green Line! They do not recognize the existence of Israel even in the 1967 borders! They say that the "Zionist gangs" stole the country from the Arabs! That's how they poison the minds of their children!

These blood-curdling revelations were published this week in Israel and around the world. The conclusion is self-evident: the Palestinian Authority, which is responsible for the schoolbooks, cannot be a partner in peace negotiations.

What a shock!

Truth is, there is nothing new here. Every few years, when all the other arguments for refusing to speak with the Palestinian leadership wear thin, the ultimate argument pops up again: Palestinian schoolbooks call for the destruction of Israel!

<snip>

WELL, WHAT about our side? What do our schoolbooks look like?

Does the Green Line appear in them? Do they recognize the right of the Palestinians to establish a state on the other side of our 1967 borders? Do they teach love for the Palestinian people (or even the existence of the Palestinian people), or respect for the Arabs in general, or a knowledge of Islam?

The answer to all these questions: Absolutely not!

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12451

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. fantastic. A straight view from within.

unfortunately, the neocons of Israel remain in charge (even if they are losing popularity) just as we suffer with ours here.

[PDJane]

2. The Sabra that I have met,

all of them much younger than I am, are not people I want to associate with. I had an exchange student living with me for two months. It was, at least at the time, the longest two months of my existence. I finally had to contact the folks who had arranged the exchange and ask that he be transferred elsewhere. Don't get me wrong; he spoke very good English, was neat and intelligent, kept the rules and was generally polite and respectful. He was also the most bigoted person I have ever met, bar none, and that's going some.

I listened to the students he brought home with him from time to time, and they all spoke the same way, except for one young woman who eventually stopped coming to the gatherings.

It was an experience that finished any attachment I may have had to Zionism, and put the finishing touches to my flirtation with organized religion of any sort.

The final break came when he started talking about keeping nations "clean." That sounded just too damn close to Nazi Germany for comfort.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. keeping nations clean?

Nazis, KKK, and fundies in both the christian and muslim faiths used that argument.

to hell with them all.

What strikes me is how vibrant and alive the Israeli press is, especially when compared to the brain dead MSM here in the states. They actually debate the plight of Palestinians. A friend in Tel Aviv wrote me that Clinton's book is doing quite well there, which prompted me to buy and read it. They actually care about military mistakes on their part as much as they wish to stop palestinian attacks against them.

So, why does a group like AIPAC manage to have a strangle hold over our political debate while no such limits exist on even tougher topics in Israel proper? Not just our MSM, but over our politicians, as well. (did you catch Obama prostrating himself before AIPAC)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Good questions! Why does US have to be more "zionist" than Israel? n/t

[TomClash]

8. In other words, he was ignorant

Of course, you cannot judge all Israelis by one person.

"It was an experience that finished any attachment I may have had to Zionism, and put the finishing touches to my flirtation with organized religion of any sort.

The final break came when he started talking about keeping nations "clean." That sounded just too damn close to Nazi Germany for comfort."

Three great sentences. Welcome to the light of reason. You should be proud of yourself. :hi:

[msmcghee]

4. The Israel/Palestine Textbook Wars

I was hoping we could get back to this. And I was wondering how long it would take for some notable Palestinian apologist to come out with an article attempting to discredit the PMW study of Palestinian 12th grade textbooks.

http://www.pmw.org.il/

In this article Avnery places his own broad sweeping conclusions about what he believes Israeli school books teach Israeli kids - plus some personal anecdotes about experiences of himself and others on peace missions to the territories - up against this well-documented PMW report, endorsed by Hillary Clinton, that contains item after item of accurately translated excerpts from Palestinian textbooks.


Items like, "Palestine’s war ended with a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history, when the Zionist gangs stole Palestine and expelled its people from their cities, their villages, their lands and their houses, and established the State of Israel." (Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p. 104)


Or, "The Ribat for Allah is one of the actions related to Jihad for Allah, it means: Being found in areas where there is a struggle between Muslims and their enemies... the endurance of Palestine’s people on their land … is one of the greatest of the Ribat and they are worthy of a great reward from Allah." (Islamic Education, grade 12, pp. 86-87)


To justify such easily verified specific statements giving Palestinian kids the strongest possible religious and nationalistic reasons to hate Israel and Jews and even engage in religious war against them - Avnery takes a deceptive tack right from the start.

He asks questions such as, "Do they teach love for the Palestinian people (or even the existence of the Palestinian people), or respect for the Arabs in general, or a knowledge of Islam?"

Notice that his questions imply that an alleged lack of love for Palestinians in Israeli textbooks - is morally equivalent to and justified by the specific statements of hatred for Jews and Israel documented in Palestinian textbooks.

That's a bit like claiming that Nazi holocaust deniers are justified in their ugly lies - because Israel never has anything nice to say about Nazis.

But what about the substance of his claims? He asks, "Do they recognize the right of the Palestinians to establish a state on the other side of our 1967 borders?"

What high school textbook could possibly recognize that the Palestinians do or do not have a right to establish a state in Palestine. The topic could make for some interesting reading - perhaps in a post graduate course on international law - where even then I doubt that the question could be clearly answered. Do American, French or Australian high school textbooks make that claim? I'd be very surprised if they did. Besides, the question is not their right to establish a state - it is whether that state will agree to recognize its neighbor, Israel, and clearly disavow its long self-claimed right to destroy it - and most important, whether that state would have the ability to, or sincerely commit to, enforce any such agreements.

UN resolutions and peace treaties are where such things are worked out - not school books. And so far those things have not been worked out - despite almost everyone in the world hoping that they will be. A schoolbook that said that they were already settled would be lieing to its students. It is revealing that Avnery apparently believes that such lieing is OK as long as some greater political purpose is served - which kind of makes PMW's case for them.

As far as no maps of the green line - Avnery claims they do not exist. But to make that claim he'd need the results of some study from a specific time period up to the present - with a list of all Israeli textbooks published during that time, a list of those examined and the results in a form that could be independently checked. A study at least as well documented as the PMW study.

Certainly, if such a study existed and produced the results he claims, I think he would have mentioned it. Don't you? The fact that he did not - and instead fills his article with poetic musings about peace-loving Palestinians - speaks volumes.

[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

10. Uri Avnery is an Israeli war hero, not a 'Palestinian apologist'

Rather than repeat what's already been said in other threads, here's a link to a post that you should read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x171028#171213

A few other points:

In the article Uri Avnery made this particular broad sweeping conclusion:

'I repeat what I said then: the aim must be that the child in Ramallah sees before his eyes, on the wall of his classroom, a map on which the State of Israel is marked. And that the child in Rishon-le-Zion sees before his eyes, on the wall of his classroom, a map on which the State of Palestine is marked. Not by compulsion, but by agreement.

That is, of course, impossible as long as Israel has no borders. How can one mark on the map a state which, from its first day, has refused, consciously and adamantly, to define its borders? Can we really demand that the Palestinian ministry of education publish a map on which all the territory of Palestine lies inside Israel?

And on the other hand, how can one mark on the map the name "Palestine", when there is no Palestinian state? After all, even most of those Israeli politicians who profess - at least pro forma - to support the "two-states solution" will go to great lengths to avoid saying where the border between the two state should run. Tzipi Livni, the Foreign Minister, is totally opposed to the announced intention of her colleague, Minister of Education Yuli Tamir, to mark the Green Line, lest it be seen as a border.

Peace means a border. A border fixed by agreement. Without a border, there can be no peace. And without peace, it is the height of chutzpa to demand something from the other side that we totally refuse to do ourselves.'

I fail to see how anyone could disagree with what he said...

Also, as Uri Avnery is an Israeli and has first hand knowledge of what's contained in Israeli and Palestinian textbooks, I tend to view his much more balanced views as far more credible than that of any American group that berates the Palestinians for something while ignoring the fact that Israeli textbooks also do the same thing...


The fact that he did not - and instead fills his article with poetic musings about peace-loving Palestinians - speaks volumes.

There are plenty of very credible studies supporting what Avnery said. And I failed to see anything in the article that remotely resembled 'poetic musings about peace-loving Palestinians'. Where in the article did he do that?

[eyl]

11. a war hero, maybe

but he certainly has no problem lying when it suits his point (see, foe example, his article in response to the Pope's infamous quote a few months ago; I think it was called "Mohammad's Sword" or something, and displayed an apalling lack of historical knowledge). In this case, he doesn't actually bother to refute the article he's taking issue with; his entire "defence" (such as it is) is "look over here!"

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Can you point out where he lied in this article?

Also, he's not taking issue with any particular article. What he does is point out the sheer hypocrisy of complaining about Israel not being marked in Palestinian textbooks while Israeli textbooks don't show the Green Line. There's nothing of a 'look over there' nature about that one at all...

[eyl]

15. Well, f'rinstance

that we were indeed driven out by the Romans after the destruction of our Temple in the year 70 (a myth)

Now, I'm not sure what he specifically he considers a myth here, but AFAIK those facts are well esablished.

The more odious insinuation is here:

That is, of course, impossible as long as Israel has no borders. How can one mark on the map a state which, from its first day, has refused, consciously and adamantly, to define its borders? Can we really demand that the Palestinian ministry of education publish a map on which all the territory of Palestine lies inside Israel?

First of all, he's lying (or at least misirecting) by ommission. Israel's borders are not defined because clauses in the Armistice agreements stated that to be so (i.e., they stated that the armistice lines were not permanent borders) and AFAIK, those clauses were inserted at Arab insistance.

His second sentence is just rediculous. No-one is demanding they portray "all the territory of Palestine inside Israel". They can portray the Green Line as the border. And if you say that they can't do that because Israel hasn't declared that to be the border, well, Israel can use the same excuse - why should we mark the border at the Line if the Palestinians don't think that's the border?

[Violet_Crumble]

18. No, he's not lying...

I've read something recently that talked about how when Israel declared its independence it didn't define its borders. It's late over here so I'll go dig it up tomorrow. I'm not aware of any Arab insistence that Israel not define its borders, but if they did, it must be one of the few times that they and Israel agreed on anything...

There's nothing ridiculous about his second sentence. If Israeli textbooks don't include the Green Line and I'm guessing in doing so giving a false impression to students that the Occupied Territories are part of Israel itself, then I do think it's highly hypocritical to insist that the Palestinians must include the Green Line in their textbooks. What seems obvious to me is that both Israeli and Palestinian textbooks must include maps that recognise Israel as well as the occupied territories....

[msmcghee]

21. What do you base this statement on?

"What seems obvious to me is that both Israeli and Palestinian textbooks must include maps that recognise Israel as well as the occupied territories...."

We have seen the conclusive evidence that Palestinian 12th grade texts do not recognize the state of Israel.

How about some evidence that Israeli textbooks don't recognize the existence of the disputed territories.

Otherwise your posts on the subject are just a straw man.

[breakaleg]

22. Israel ignores the green line as well...

And how do Israelis deal with the criticism that Israeli textbooks disregard the Green Line? They ignore it. Two years ago, we published the main points of a study by Dr. Nurit Peled-Elhanan of the Hebrew University's School of Education. Peled-Elhanan examined six textbooks published after the Oslo Accords, including some that were officially sanctioned by the Education Ministry. Other books were adopted by many teachers even though they were not officially approved. Among the salient findings were the blurring of the Green Line, the ignoring of Arab towns in Israel, and the presentation of sites and settlements in "Judea and Samaria" (not the "West Bank") as an integral part of the State of Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/796896.html


JERUSALEM -- Titled "The Borders of Israel," a page in an Israeli geography textbook shows a map of the country, shaded in yellow and bounded by a red line that includes the West Bank, Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights, captured in the 1967 Middle East War.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0612070041dec07,1,5464707.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-utl&ctrack=1&cset=true

[msmcghee]

23. Thanks for the links.

I won't get into any argument now about whether Israeli policy re: maps in textbooks is effectively different from Palestinian policy re: their kids maps - though it may be. It seems there's enough evidence to say that both sides use those maps to make political statements. I'll join you in condemning Israel for using their kids textbooks for political reasons.

It would be fair to note however, that in Israel a furor has developed over the issue with the current government policy being to correct any maps, during the next budget period, that do not accurately show the green line.

That's not to say that Israel shouldn't be criticized - just that there is a difference between how the two peoples are dealing with this issue - and those are the same differences in how the two peoples generally deal with the conflict.

I'd characterize the difference as this. In Israel you have a free-wheeling political process that swings between parties that fear there is no possibility they will ever have a partner for peace in any Palestinian government - and parties that believe that with enough effort and patience and ignoring what any current Palestinian government does and says - such partners will eventually appear. Right now the latter parties seem to have sway.

In Palestine there has only been governments that insist more or less adamantly (and more or less openly) that Israel has no right to exist and that dedicate themselves more or less urgently to Israel's destruction.

It appears to me that each peoples' handling of the textbook map issue reflects those differences pretty accurately.

Thanks again for the links. I remember seeing those articles before but forgot about them.

[eyl]

24. ..

Excepting the agreement with Lebanon, the armistice agreements were clear (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent or de jure borders. The Egyptian-Israeli agreement stated "The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question."

The Jordanian-Israeli agreement stated: "... no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims, and positions of either Party hereto in the peaceful settlement of the Palestine questions, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations" (Art. II.2), "The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto." (Art. VI.9)

In the Knesset then Foreign Minister and future Prime Minister Moshe Sharett called the armistice lines "provisional boundaries" and the old international borders which the armistice lines, except with Jordan, were based on, "natural boundaries". Israel did not lay claim to territory beyond them and proposed them, with minor modifications except at Gaza, as the basis of permanent political frontiers at the Lausanne Conference, 1949.

wikipedia

As for your second point, I'm addressing the revious poster's contention that Israel recognizing or not recognizing the Green Line in schooltexts somehow affects the PAlestinians' ability to do so.

[Shaktimaan]

13. Impossible?

That is, of course, impossible as long as Israel has no borders. How can one mark on the map a state which, from its first day, has refused, consciously and adamantly, to define its borders? Can we really demand that the Palestinian ministry of education publish a map on which all the territory of Palestine lies inside Israel?

When you say that Israel refused to define its borders don't you really mean that every state involved decided, by mutual agreement, not to define the green line as a recognized border? Israel's border has always been disputed and as to what land belongs to whom, that question is clearly spelled out as one to be ultimately negotiated.

The criticisms of Palestinian textbooks is not one which demands all Palestinians to agree with Israel's reckoning on every border issue. It is one that asks that the textbooks reflect the real history and the understanding of de facto borders within a proper context. The fact that Israel's eastern border is subject to debate does not mean there is no obligation to acknowlege Israel's existence. The border of Kashmir is disputed. Should Pakistani maps then address the matter by not including India on them at all?

Your assertion that having a map that reflects the various de-facto borders like the green line, the security fence and the areas of administrative control within Palestine is far from "impossible." Don't Palestinian children deserve a chance to understand the actual political situation as it exists in reality instead of using a technicality as justification for feeding them hateful, untrue rhetoric?

I tend to view his much more balanced views as far more credible than that of any American group that berates the Palestinians for something while ignoring the fact that Israeli textbooks also do the same thing...

You see anything that supports your unwavering beliefs as being credible and anything that challenges them as suspect.

As for Israeli textbvooks being the same as Palestinian, do Israeli textbooks do the equivalent of this...

Very briefly, the report finds the following in these textbooks: the founding of Israel is described as “a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history.” There is a portrayal of the region in both maps and text in which Israel does not exist. There is the denial of the Holocaust by the omission of historical facts connecting Nazi ideology and actions with the persecution and murder of Jews. For example, the report states, “The textbook teaches the military and the political events of WWII in significant detail including sections on Nazi racist ideology, yet neither the persecution of Jews or the Holocaust is even mentioned.”

(from PMW.)

Forty years have passed, and the name "Israel" does not appear in Palestinian schoolbooks, nor, I assume, on any school map from Morocco to Iraq. And the name "Palestine" does not appear, of course, on any Israeli school map. Only when the young Israeli joins the army, does he see a map of "the territories", with its crazy puzzle of Zones A, B and C, settlement blocs and apartheid roads.

So, you believe this? In Israel they don't teach any of the children the actual current events involving the conflict? Not until they are 18 does anyone learn the truth about anything? I noticed that this guy mentions his "assumptions" regarding exactly what is in most Arab schoolbooks. Might it be true that he's just "assuming" much throughout this whole article?

[Violet_Crumble]

14. I think yr confusing me with Uri Avnery...

It's him, not me, who said: 'That is, of course, impossible as long as Israel has no borders. How can one mark on the map a state which, from its first day, has refused, consciously and adamantly, to define its borders? Can we really demand that the Palestinian ministry of education publish a map on which all the territory of Palestine lies inside Israel?' I just reposted it...

If someone uses the excuse that the Green Line doesn't need to appear in Israeli textbooks (hence the West Bank is included on maps as part of Israel), then they can't turn around and complain about Palestinian textbooks that also ignore the Green Line and include Israel as part of Palestine. The fairest solution, and one that gives both Israeli and Palestinian kids a realistic grasp of things is to simply include the Green Line. It's not that difficult, as most other maps manage to do it...

You see anything that supports your unwavering beliefs as being credible and anything that challenges them as suspect.

No, I don't, and I'd appreciate it if you stick to discussing the topic rather than talking about me...

Now, back to the topic. I've previously posted a link to a whole lot of information posted by Douglas Carpenter

link: http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3060&CategoryId...

"Since 1998, the “Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace” has persistently published reports claiming that Palestinian textbooks incite hatred against Israel and the Jewish people. While the Center claims “to encourage the development and fostering of peaceful relations between peoples and nations, by establishing a climate of tolerance and mutual respect founded on the rejection of violence as a means to resolving conflicts,” its attitude towards the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian Curriculum has been described as prosecutorial in nature. Being overly suspicious of their produced reports is well advised given that the Center’s first director, Itamar Marcus, is a right wing Israeli supporter and resident of the West Bank settlement of Efrat.

The Center’s work reveals a deeply flawed methodology aimed at misleading the reader. Furthermore, evidence reveals that the Center is fair, balanced, and understanding towards Israeli textbooks, but tendentious on Palestinian books. In short, the purpose is clearly to indict the textbooks and the PNA, rather than analyze and understand the content of the books. Were the Center to take a similar approach in other countries, including Israel, it could easily find comparable material.

Studies of Palestinian textbooks have revealed that any strong anti-Israel and anti-Semitic material in the curriculum comes from books that the Palestinians did not author and are replacing. (Ironically, these same books that were actually authored by Jordanians and Egyptians were distributed by Israel in east Jerusalem after only removing the cover.) Furthermore, books that were written by the Palestinian Authority in 1994, 2000, and 2001 are free of such material. Information gathered by the EU missions on the ground, as well as independent studies carried out by Israeli and Palestinian academics and educators that have examined the new textbooks, show that allegations against the new textbooks funded by EU members have proven unfounded

Below are the various reports, articles, and studies conducted on Palestinian textbooks exonerating them of inciting hatred towards Israel and the Jewish people:"

More on myth and prejudice in Israel:"Negative thinking" By Sarah Ozacky-Lazar Representations of Arabs in Israeli Jewish Society" by Yona Teichman and Daniel Bar-Tal, Ha'aretz June 24, 2005 - link:

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?ite...

Clarification from the Ministry of Education Regarding the Palestinian Curriculum and Textbooks - link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan...

Battle of the Books in Palestine by Fouad Moughrabi in The Nation, 1 October 2001 - link:

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20011001&s=mo...

Democracy, History and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum by Nathan J. Brown November 2001 - link :

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Adam_Institute_Pa...

Comparing Palestinian and Israeli Textbooks - link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan...

What Did You Study In School Today, Palestinian Child? - link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan...

What Do Palestinian Textbooks Really Say?

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/CAJE.htm

If You Are For Truth, You Seek The Truth First

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=169953&mesg_id=170096

[Shaktimaan]

25. Some links that work would be great.

No pressure though.

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. Here are some links -- I tested them so they definitely work

Note: A few of the articles below are English translations from reports originally published in Hebrew or French:

The Myth of Incitement in Palestinian Textbooks by Hanan Ashrawi

Link:

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3060&CategoryId=21

More on myth and prejudice in Israel:"Negative thinking" By Sarah Ozacky-Lazar Representations of Arabs in Israeli Jewish Society" by Yona Teichman and Daniel Bar-Tal, Ha'aretz June 24, 2005

link:
(hebrew)
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=590064&contrassID=2&subContrassID=12&sbSubContrassID=0

English translation:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jul20MHC2k5.doc


Clarification from the Ministry of Education Regarding the Palestinian Curriculum and Textbooks

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30ay2k4.doc

Battle of the Books in Palestine by Fouad Moughrabi in The Nation, 1 October 2001

link:

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20011001&s=moughrabi

Democracy, History and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum by Nathan J. Brown November 2001

link:

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/Adam_Institute_Palestinian_textbooks.htm

Comparing Palestinian and Israeli Textbooks

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30by2k4.doc

What Did You Study In School Today, Palestinian Child?

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30cy2k4.doc

What Do Palestinian Textbooks Really Say?

link:

http://www.geocities.com/nathanbrown1/CAJE.htm

If You Are For Truth, You Seek The Truth First

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30dy2k4.doc

Israel or Palestine: Who Teaches What History?

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30ey2k4.doc

Palestinian Schoolbooks by Council of the European Union 15 May 2002

link:

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external_relations/mepp/faq/heads_%20mission_schoolbooks.pdf

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30fy2k4.doc

The Continuing Debate on Incitement in the Palestinian Curriculum

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30gy2k4.doc

THE POLITICS OF PALESTINIAN TEXTBOOKS

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/Jan30hy2k4.doc

The Effect of the Israeli Occupation on the Palestinian Education

link:

http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/Other/Assessment15.pdf

Confronting Israeli Mythmaking, Counterpunch, 22 June 2005

link:

http://counterpunch.org/christison06222005.html

The Myth of Incitement in Palestinian Textbooks, Palestinian Ministry of Education and Higher Education, 13 June 2005

link:

http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/11/3923

[msmcghee]

16. Self delete - wrong place.

[msmcghee]

17. Thanks for the reply.

I will try to address the ideas you raised.

Your main point seems to be, "That is, of course, impossible as long as Israel has no borders. How can one mark on the map a state which, from its first day, has refused, consciously and adamantly, to define its borders? Can we really demand that the Palestinian ministry of education publish a map on which all the territory of Palestine lies inside Israel?

And on the other hand, how can one mark on the map the name "Palestine", when there is no Palestinian state? After all, even most of those Israeli politicians who profess - at least pro forma - to support the "two-states solution" will go to great lengths to avoid saying where the border between the two state should run. Tzipi Livni, the Foreign Minister, is totally opposed to the announced intention of her colleague, Minister of Education Yuli Tamir, to mark the Green Line, lest it be seen as a border."

I think Avnery (and you) make the mistake of confusing maps with specific lines marking borders - with maps for which whole states are omitted for the purpose of denying that state's existence or legitimacy.

I think one understandable fear that Israel has is that in some future negotiations, a Palestinian negotiator pulls out an Israeli schoolbook and says - "Of course, the green line is where the final border should be established. It is the de facto border already. You even show it as such in your children's textbooks."

Can you see why Livni would want the borders to be determined by other considerations than their children's textbooks?

OTOH - why would Palestinians omit the whole state of Israel from maps in Palestinian kids' texts or not even mention the existence of Israel in the ME? Clear borders don't have to marked on maps for states and ethnic areas to be shown - perhaps with a note that one particular border is yet to be determined.

Don't you think Israel (via PMW) is justifiably worried that Palestinians are teaching their kids that Israel is an illegal entity that must be destroyed? Especially when they elect a party to power that uses that same eliminationist philosophy in their charter?

I think these are the larger questions you raise and are the ones that should be addressed.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I touched on some of the points you raised in a reply I just did to another poster...

Rather than boring everyone by repeating myself, I'll give you the link and then talk about some of the things in yr post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=171371&mesg_id=171607

I think it's not so important what the area that isn't part of Israel is labelled on a map, as long as it's not shown as being part of Israel itself. I've seen plenty of maps that differentiate between Israel and show the occupied territories as being the West Bank and Gaza, but the important thing is that schoolkids in Israel and the occupied territories aren't being led to believe that the entire area between the Jordan river and the sea is either solely Israel or Palestine...

I have no doubt that future negotiations will be at the high sort of level where children's schoolbooks aren't pulled out. Even so, the Green Line is for all intents and purposes Israel's border, and the exchange of any land beyond the Green Line in a peace deal is going to have to be a mutually agreeable swap on the basis of where the Green Line is...

No, I don't think that Israel is justifiably worried. I think there are deliberate attempts to make out that any problematic textbooks are reflective of all textbooks, but just like there are problematic textbooks floating round some parts of the education system in Israel doesn't mean that the problem is endemic there, it's the same for Palestinian textbooks and education. What should be done is to get any problem Palestinian and Israeli textbooks revised so that they remove anything inflammatory and that the maps reflect the reality of the situation. What shouldn't be done is to take a few examples and use them as a weapon to try to show how terrible the other side is, which is what I've seen a few supposedly impartial groups do...

[TomClash]

7. What a surprise

And the beat goes on . . .

Good article though.