ANALYSIS: Re-occupation of Gaza - is it the only way out?

[Swede]

Fatah was forced to overrule the Palestinian voters because the entire world demanded it do so. The United States, the European nations, most of the Arab leaders and, of course, the State of Israel, warned Fatah not to share power with Hamas.

And so, after the Israeli pullout, instead of becoming a model for Palestinian self-rule, Gaza turned into the exact opposite. Matters have come to the point where Hamas operatives attempted all through Monday and Tuesday to take by force what they believe they rightfully deserve.

Abbas is maintaining that over the last couple of days, Hamas has been attempting to stage a coup. Everyone following the events share this opinion.

Hamas' military drive seems to have been meticulously planned in advance, including the targeting of headquarters, public facilities, and particular central figures.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870530.html

[ShortnFiery]

1. Like it or not, Israel and the World Community should negotiate with the will of the Palestinian ...

People. If they elect Hamas Candidates, then so be it. I want to believe if you actually sit down and negotiate with the true *elected* leaders of the Palestinians, then you can get them tied into the political process, i.e., to hesitate using violence to get their ends met.

It's bizarre that we allow the Palestinians to have an election and then NEGATE it because we don't approve of those who they have elected their leaders.

I honestly believe that Hamas leaders will not wish to overthrow Israel - IF they would recognize their power and HONESTLY negotiate with them for the TWO State Solution.

God - Allah, etc., knows we've tried everything else. :shrug:

[sabbat hunter]

2. hamas has called

for the destruction of israel in hte past. they are also behind numerous murder/suicide bombings, have kidnapped israeli soliders and hold them illegally.

additionally abbas was the president of the PA. an elected role.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Always, "the destruction of Israel" desire is used as an excuse for NOT opening the negotiations.

How do you expect you are going to change the hearts and minds of the Palestinian people supporting Hamas, if you do NOT allow their initial leaders to negotiate with the Israelis?

I'm sure Russia wanted to wipe the USA off of the face of the map too, but that did NOT stop us from talking and negotiating with them.

IMO that argument is growing very weak. :shrug:

[oberliner]

8. Hamas would not negoitate directly with Israel, only through Abbas

Abbas was the only person authorized to negotiate with Israel as he was the head of the PLO.

Also, I don't think that Russia believed that the USA was an illegitimate state that rightfully belonged to them.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Oh yes, Russia hated our Capitalistic a**es. They would have loved to wipe us out.

But the big difference is that both Nations could not ignore one another. Because Israel (and the USA when it comes to Iraq) has the mighty MILITARY MACHINE, those who are occupied do not make any of the choices.

No, there must come a time when, although we are big and mighty, we allow The Palestinian People to truly (without our meddling) elect their own leaders.

They will NOT wish to destroy Israel if these Hamas Leaders are a true part of a newly formed state. Everyone knows that but it's still too tempting to continue to occupy and oppress. That way you don't have to SHARE any of the precious land. :(

[msmcghee]

12. Then why is it that the Hamas Charter says . .

. . Israel is an illegal state that must be destroyed and that all Muslims must cooperate to carry that out - as their sacred duty to Allah? That seems pretty specific.

Why doesn't the Hamas Charter say anything about the occupation of the WB and that if it's eliminated they'll be happy to live with Israel in peace?

Why do they shoot rockets and kill innocent Israeli civilians in Sderot? They are not occupying anyone.

Why don't their Charter or their public statements say that if "Hamas Leaders are a true part of a newly formed state" as you claim - they will drop their wish to destroy Israel.

Is it because they've duped the Western far left into apologizing for and providing a more PC cover story - for their openly stated and long held desire to destroy Israel?

It seems that if being recognized by the West as leaders of their newly formed state was actually their primary goal - they might mention it to somebody.

[ShortnFiery]

14. Answer Is: They are OCCUPIED, OPPRESSED and have no HOME LAND n/t

[AviBaruch]

28. You do realize that's as much of an excuse

as the "Hamas wants to destroy Israel" claim, right?

[AviBaruch]

27. They want to be treated equally but do not want

to live up to the responsibilities that go with that.

[sabbat hunter]

23. hamas

doesnt even recognize israels right to exist. russia at least recognized the US and we recognized them.

[AviBaruch]

26. So, why not get rid of the excuse and stop calling

for the destruction of Israel?

That would end that line of rejectionism, wouldn't it?

[malaise]

4. Hamas may have called for it but

Israel has destroyed Palestine.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Israel did not destroy Palestine, as it didn't exist.

[ShortnFiery]

7. and around and around and around we go ... Ball of Confusion.

We MUST seek a peaceful end to this cycle of violence.

As distasteful as it seems, we must negotiate with the Palestinians' ELECTED leaders. We can NOT parse who we WILL or WILL NOT negotiate with ... this is a disaster.

Negotiations - Talking with our sworn enemies and ending these occupations is the only way toward a LASTING PEACE.

We'll either kill off the human race OR we will negotiate. I choose the latter. :shrug:

[pelsar]

9. why do negotiations HAVE to work?

.....fatah and hamas negotiations "worked out very well".....seems to me for those who propose, no matter who distaseful, negotiations with hamas they should at least "go in with their eyes open.

Hamas and Fatah, all palestenians, were part of the same govt, negotiated power sharing etc....and look what that got. I do believe hama made their negotiating technique made it very clear, if words wont get what they want...they'll just shoot (or execute, or throw people off buildings etc) until they do.

Seems strange to advocate negotiating with a group that has that kind of philosophy......

[ShortnFiery]

10. It's always been divide and conquer: Israel, et. al. pitted Fatah against Hamas.

They seem to think that as long as the Palestinians fight among each other they will come out on top. But it only fuels more hatred, all around.

[pelsar]

15. do the palestenains have "no mind of their own"

Israel, et. al. pitted Fatah against Hamas

i doubt hamas and fatah will agree with you that they are "puppets" of the israel. Strange how one can think so little of the palestenians......(I'm sure theres a word that describes such a thing)

[ShortnFiery]

18. Simply, no I think they honestly do NOT: those in abject poverty with no hope are easily led. n/t

[pelsar]

19. except they arent in "abject poverty"

neither the leaders of hamas nor the leaders of fatah have an income problem...

so....again we have your belief that they are some how "puppets" of israel and do israeli bidding.

so how are these educated, well off leaders of hamas and fatah so dumb?...do they know they're being manipulated? are they too "dumb' to know?

[ShortnFiery]

20. Again, you are talking LEADERS and not "the people" who are easily led.

You can be a genius BUT if you are living in poverty Maslow's "lowest rung" within The Hierarchy of Needs kicks in full bore. The poor people within Gaza will give their loyalties to ANY LEADER who promises their family security and shelter.

When people have little to nothing to lose, it doesn't matter how intelligent they are, seeing their families suffer negates *the reason* those of us with better means are blessed with having the station in life to apply.

No, both the Palestinian People and Iraqi People are *freaked out* and not having their BASIC NEEDS met. People who are *desperate* (even highly intelligent people) will throw their support behind ANYONE who promises to protect themselves and their families from harm and starvation.

If you negotiate with the leaders AND the people are given SOME HOPE, they will become more pro-active to *keep their leaders honest.* If you transfer the welfare of the people to make it The Leader's responsibility within a Two State Solution, neither Israel nor the USA can be labeled as the Big Bad Oppressors. Why? Because we are providing the Palestinian people self-rule.

Just like Iran is SLOWLY electing more moderate leaders, Palestinians who have increased income (something to lose) and education for their families, will start making DEMANDS on their leaders to stop the KILLING in order to maintain their new found increased standard of living.

[pelsar]

21. yes i am talking about the leaders...

its a reply to what you wrote:
Fatah against Hamas

Israel did not make their philosophies ...israel did not advise them on how to gain members, where to get funding from, how to organize their schools etc. nor pit one against the other

It's always been divide and conquer: Israel, et. al. pitted Fatah against Hamas.

the Palestinians did that all by themselves. (I believe your accusation is that israel "did this to them")

____

and btw the palestenians rejected "higher standard of living" since it came with the occupation....or at least their leaders did. Their leaders had responsability and ever since intifada I the palestenians welfare and income and personal security has gone straight downhill....starting with when arafat came back.

the "social argument" that having something to lose prevents national violence was debunked a long long long time ago. national/religious movements have nothing to do with it.

[msmcghee]

13. What would Israel negotiate with Hamas about?

Do you think they could get them to only fire rockets to kill innocent Israeli civilians - on weekends and holidays?

[ShortnFiery]

16. NO easy way: but we ALL know that the killing (both sides) must stop for the sake of humanity. n/t

[sabbat hunter]

25. hamas

wont even recognize israel's right to exist. how can you negotiate with someone that doesnt even recognize you.

and israel isnt supposed to negotiate with a group, but a government. the PA had a split government, parliament controlled by hamas political wing but abbas was the president.

[Jim Sagle]

6. Hogwash!

[LeftishBrit]

22. Right at the moment...

HAMAS are sadly doing a pretty good job of destroying Palestine.

There is no doubt plenty of blame to go around over the years for the international community, Israel, most of the Arab states, etc., etc. And yes, more attempts should have been made at peace negotiations on all sides: just because you refuse to talk to someone, doesn't make them stop existing. But right at this moment the supposed 'leaders' of the Palestinians are the ones doing the most enormous harm to their own community.

[sabbat hunter]

24. incorrect

1) you cannot destroy something that never existed
2) the chances of a palestinian state forming were destroyed by egypt and jordan occupying the west bank and gaza between 1948-1967. remember up until fairly recently jordan claimed that the west bank was its territory, not an area for a potential palestinian state.

i grow weary of people blaming israel solely for there not being a palestine. there are numerous reasons for it, and israel is one small piece of this.

until about 10-15 years ago, israel had no one to even negotiate with to form a palestinian state.

hamas is a terror organization. now not only are they terrorizing israelis, but palestinians as well.

[Eugene]

17. Israel Won't Intervene in Gaza

Source: Associated Press

Israel Won't Intervene in Gaza

Friday June 15, 2007 8:46 AM

-snip-

By DIAA HADID

Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Calm appeared to be returning
to Gaza on Friday morning after five days of brutal fighting
between rival Palestinian forces. Traffic was back on the
streets and few armed men were visible, in contrast to the
running battles of the past few days.

-snip-

The Palestinian territories have essentially been split into
two parts: Gaza is now under the control of Hamas, an
Islamist movement with close ties to Syria and Iran. The West
Bank, home to most of the Palestinian population, is dominated
by the more moderate Fatah, which has ties to Israel and the
West.

-snip-

An Israeli Cabinet minister said that despite calls from the
right for Israel to reoccupy the Gaza Strip, which it left in
2005, Israel would not move in to confront Hamas, which is
sworn to destroy it.

“There is no intention to re-enter that swamp, Gaza, in this
situation. At this point, Israel has no reason to intervene,”
Meir Sheetrit told Israel Radio.

-snip-

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6711348,00.html