Israel shells edges of south Lebanon border village

[Aidoneus]

KFAR SHOUBA, Lebanon (Reuters) - Israeli troops in a disputed border area shelled the edges of a south Lebanese village Monday, security sources and witnesses said.

They said the shelling, which came one day after Israeli warplanes bombed inside Syria, hit the northern outskirts of the border town of Kfar Shouba. There were no immediate reports of injuries or damage.

In a separate incident, Lebanese security sources said shots were fired from Israel over the border.

--snip--

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200310061213000276541&dt=20031006121300&w=RTR&coview=

[maggrwaggr]

1. Hm, I can't find this on Shrub's "roadmap to peace"

can anyone point it out to me?

[donsu]

2. this is bad, this is very bad

this is arrogance

[tinnypriv]

3. Israel is trying to illicit retaliation

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Or they are responding to shots or rockets from Lebanon

nt

[tinnypriv]

11. If you have evidence of that

I will reconsider my view.

[tinnypriv]

15. They just got it

An Israeli soldier killed on the northern border. Hizbollah blamed.

[deaniebopper]

5. It's about time Israel took a tough stand

[Aidoneus]

6. an unprovoked bombing of a village is "taking a tough stand"?

That's the stance PIJ may take, but I'm a little surprised to see it here.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Unprovoked?

What gave you that idea?

[Aidoneus]

8. for starters, the definition..

------------------------------------

un·pro·voked
(click to hear the word) (npr-vkt)
adj.

Not provoked or prompted: an unprovoked attack.

------------------------------------

What is the confusing bit? Are "the Arabs" just one interchangeable mass that can be struck at will? I know some will just approve of whatever Israel does, but I would usuaully expect some logic tacked along to it if there's going to be any decent discussion of it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Two points

One, Hezbollah regularly attacks Israelis from Lebanon.

Two, a strike at Lebanon could also be seen as a strike at Syria, since they run things there.

[Aidoneus]

16. we're stringing this across two threads now

do you have any specific reply to my specific question in #36 in the other or can I consider this exchange finished for now?

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Care to be more specific

In the other is not exactly clear.

[Aidoneus]

18. ok

here and there (that overlap I referred to) you say Hizbullah attacks Israel all the time; if that was the case, my question shouldn't be tough at all to answer. I asked for an example of a specific time that happened, with the qualifiers that anti-air mortars fired at jets and attacks on the military in Shebaa don't count.

I gave particular insistance on the words exact and specific; I've been getting neither, so I thought I'd emphasize the non-general nature of my question..

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. How's this

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/6502187.htm

[Aidoneus]

20. ok

...with the qualifiers that anti-air mortars fired at jets and attacks on the military in Shebaa don't count...

It's a tough question, I couldn't even think of an answer for it..

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Their claim only

Not fact. Only you believe anything Hezbollah says.

[Aidoneus]

23. of course.. how silly of me again

I was actually looking this up earlier yesterday (and previously) before I put it to you, and couldn't find anything that fit the criteria from within the last couple years. Before 2000 there were, but that's a different period and what they sent into Israel was only a fraction of what flew the other direction anyway. Since you said it happens all the time still, I figured it would be very easy to have answered.

Now if I hadn't ruled out Shebaa, you would have a case of a geniunely intentional firing from August (as opposed to the unfortunate "collateral damage", a term I otherwise dislike greatly, but is applicable to those who find it a legitimate copout even if I don't), but on the other side of the border on the far eastern edge. In response (so they claim) to the strange murder of Ali Saleh in Beirut the group fired on a number of IDF military positions in the occupied-Shebaa farms area, which was met with Israelis firing on two villages across the border. It was the first of such in many months. But I excluded that sort of action from the question, is there any other you know of to back up the claim?

Some things I did find. One figure I saw from Israeli defense analysts was that they counted around 100 occasions that various Lebanese people (not limited to Hizbullah at all such times) fired anti-air mortars or comparable on Israeli jets flying over their airspace since May-2000, not hitting any of them but it's meant as a symbolic gesture at any rate. What I was able to find was quite a few occasions of Lebanese border villages being fired on, but that's never wrong unless it's the opposite..

Haven't been posting as much lately, but I suppose I have you to thank for making the last couple days interesting again. :toast:

[tinnypriv]

24. Now I hate to stick up for Muddle

But he happens to be right (-ish) on this one.

Though it is a bit of a stretch to say "Hizbollah shells Israel all the time", it is true that Hizbollah does shell Israel.

95% (maybe 99%) of the time it is retaliation for illegal Israeli actions (airspace violation, assasination by Mossad, army encroachment etc). Sometimes it isn't.

For a retaliation example, according to yediot aharonot, Hizbollah shelled the Galilee last night (no casualties or damage however). Ma'ariv says the weapons used were mortars.

Source:



(Oct 7, Yediot Aharonot)

I don't see this reported anywhere else, but I haven't looked much beyond google. :shrug:

[bemildred]

25. I've seen it mentioned in a couple places, buried in other stuff.

[Aidoneus]

27. ok

Saw that last night when it was added into the Haaretz piece bemildred linked here a few hours after the piece first appeared. Somewhere along the line a bus was also fired on between Adasiyeh & Kafr Kila in the same area--perhaps the same event where the UN water truck was hit? or after/before/:shrug:?

There was also a missile of some sort that hit a house in the village of Hula later (a couple miles NW of Kafr Kila/Metula where the site of the earlier events were, a couple miles west of where Qiryat Shemona is), killing an 8yr old and wounding his brother. That report appeared at the same time as the Qiryat Shemona event, probably related to each other (one because of the other perhaps, which was first is another unknown that everybody involved will deny).

On edit: in another contradiction, Naharnet says it was a house in Kafr Kila that was hit;
Thousands of Jewish settlers spent the night in underground bomb shelters as staccato bursts of machine-gun fire interspersed by sporadic mortar rounds targeted the northern Israeli border town of Kiryat Shmona, while Israeli helicopter gunships rocketed the Lebanese town of Kfar Kila.
--snip--
The pre-dawn gunships raid across the border killed a Lebanese boy identified as Nader Yassin, 4, and chopped off the right leg of his twin Ahmed. Their house in Kfar Kila was flattened by a direct air-to-ground missile hit, Lebanese police said Tuesday.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/12FA32AE5BF1336642256DB8002ABDE2?OpenDocument&PRINT

-----
I wasn't denying that things are falling, but rather specifically directed at what for that makes a different. I'm actually curious, can you point to one of those other 5%/1%? I'm aware they hit Israel on occasion, but not as it is described--every reference to an event I was able to find mentioned somewhere in the last couple years (in even the most hawkish Israeli sources that cited specific events) was tied directly either to Shebaa or jets, but I don't mind being proven wrong--on the other hand I do mind myself being repetitive with that line as it is probably starting to sound annoying, but a specific event was something I was looking for outside of the 2 limitations.. Were they tied to one(some) of the Shebaa exchanges? if it followed the 90s pattern, they fired on an IDF post, IDF shells a village, they then fire on a village after that..
The Haaretz piece mentioned in passing about the Kiryat Shemona mortars last night that it was the first such to be directly fired on Israel since spring 2002--what happened then I wasn't able to find except another Shebaa flareup that wound up getting a couple Lebanese border villages hit in response. It was a bit difficult to find specific events described and not mere generalities..

[Aidoneus]

28. at any rate

both seem to be preparing for something else after the mutual duels yesterday; the Palestinians & the border went on red alert after the bombing in Syria, today Israel is sending more forces to the northern border.

[bemildred]

29. Seems to be a good deal of saber rattling going on.

Both the US and the GOI.

This could be:
a.) Political posturing for domestic consumption
b.) A real attempt to get something going in a more
congenial combat arena (We know we can kick their butt with
tanks and jets, let's do that instead.) This leads also
to the opportunity to look competent and in control instead
of feckless, i.e. option a.).
c.) An attempt to bully certain parties into greater obedience
or at least a less aggressive attitude.

These alternatives are not exclusive, and probably not all-inclusive.

It does seem like Hizbollah may be picking a fight up North, if it's
serious I don't expect we will be getting prompt reports on how
things go.

The US attitude to Syria can only be characterized as schizophrenic
at this point, we are cooperating on intelligence, asking for more
help with Iraq, and supporting Israel in threatening them with great
bodily harm.

[bemildred]

47. Another thought.

You don't go threatening the bejeezus out of someone you
plan to invade, even if he is decidedly weaker, he gets ready,
you lose surprise, etc. So there is another agenda at work
here than an invasion, more like some nice little dog-and-pony
show fighting across the border, maybe a bit of bombing here
and there ...

[Aidoneus]

50. that's a good point

The last time Sharon invaded Lebanon in '82 it was a surprise, as there was nothing but a handful of Norweigan & Dutch UN people with a jeep or two and some stone blocks to put in the way of tanks barreling forward. Given what happened yesterday and last night, that surprise factor just isn't there..

I get the idea that nobody has a real idea of what is going on, the "plans" so to speak just being made up as things go along. A fine display of bluster and posturing from all angles to make up for it, tho'. I haven't seen as many "KILL ARAFAT" editorials lately, maybe that was the plan and everything else is the cherry on top. :shrug:

[bemildred]

51. Maybe some smoke and mirrors to cover the resurrection:

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=19110

:shrug:

[tinnypriv]

30. I guess I need a blog or something

To keep track of all this stuff! :D

I do know that there were at least 2 Hizbollah attacks not related to Shebba and which appeared unprovoked. 1 of those was reported on Maarivenglish.com (before it was shut down), the same day that it was announced a new settlement was to be erected in Abu Dis. I'll have to see if I can find that in the Hebrew version for you (their search engine sucks though). The other I can't recall offhand (it was something to do with shooting at soldiers on the border).

I'd be very surprised if there had been much more than those two events though, hence, 95-99%.

Stands to reason really - Hizbollah doesn't want to get into a real fight with the IDF, although I assume that they do want to demonstrate that they are a deterrent to Israeli moves in the region (which is probably why they respond to every Israeli action).

To clarify, I think you're almost certainly right that overwhelmingly most of the cross-border border interactions are on a "retaliation" basis. I also agree that almost all of those are precipitated by Israeli action.

I'll try and find some links to those two events I can rememeber which didn't follow that pattern. :)

[Aidoneus]

31. that helps

thanks.. was that this year? I find 2 Abu Dis expansions, late Spring of this year and one from '97 (probably not it). I can look later for some event around that date, shouldn't be too difficult to find if I can get a particular time period.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs on the question above but I do value details on such matters.. :shrug:

[tinnypriv]

33. Yeah

It was this year.

I remember it because I recall mentioning it in an exchange with Chomsky. Let me dig that up...

[Aidoneus]

35. found something from June 4th..

but that was a mortar fired at a jet after the boobytrapped ambulance on the border.. that's just from lebanonwire.com's archives as yet for May/June.
edit: one from June 13th, anti-air falling on Galilee area, which was preceded by that nifty 'BOOM' sound jets make when they break the sound barrier, over Beirut and 2 other cities in another IAF display.
another anti-air mortar incident on the 17th following what appears to be quite an active display of a dozen IAF jets, including a mock diving raid in the South and another 'BOOM' over Beirut, besides a basic overflight of most regions of the country.

I think I'm getting too late into the year to be what you refer to, but there didn't seem to be anything comperable mentioned from May. On the side:--damn, June was a busy month for that.

[tinnypriv]

36. It could be one of those

Which would make either Lebanonwire or me wrong. ;-) :shrug:

The exchange I mentioned was (partly) this:

...

CHOMSKY: Sorry to hear that. Don't follow it regularly, but would have expected better. Guardian too?

ME: I'd say that with the Guardian, it isn't so much the reporting that is wrong, more the underlying assumptions. For instance, you're not going to find the significance of the new Jewish settlement in Abu Dis explained.

...

I wrote that on June 1 2003, so it must have been around that time.

I've got the hang of this Ma'ariv search thing now, so I should be able to bring up their report sharpish.

[Aidoneus]

37. their sources could indeed be wrong/incomplete or missing

Lebanonwire's archives aren't complete by any means, perhaps there was something else that wasn't among the places they commonly link to. Ma'ariv isn't usually one of the Israeli papers they watch, usually just JPost & Ha'aretz.

on the side, that signifigance of Abu Dis--do you mean because that's where the Palestinians' parliament meets?

[tinnypriv]

39. Be right back with answers to those

This search engine is driving me insane :D Keeps coming up with a stupid clock telling me to wait and then doing nothing!

[tinnypriv]

40. O-kay, I give up on that

According to their search engine, there are only 5 articles in the last 4 years that mention "Abu Dis":



To that I say: bullshit.

They must not keep archives of their breaking news. Damn.

[Aidoneus]

41. that's ok

thanks tho'. :toast:

some sites have really poor search engines for their own archives, sometimes Google returns a better list but I'm not sure if that works with all sites. (or if can handle Hebrew script..)

[Darranar]

42. Google can...

http://www.google.co.il/

[Aidoneus]

43. ah

well, that answers that now doesn't it.. :)

[bemildred]

45. Abu Dis, Abu Dis.

What about the significance of Abu Dis?

[tinnypriv]

46. Err see #44

:toast:

[bemildred]

48. Yeh, well I'm slow.

I found an Avnery piece from 2000 about Abu Dis and its
significance in the end of the negotiations, and a Palestinian
vanity site with pictures of the wall and some travel sites.

The Avnery piece was interesting in retrospect:

http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article82.html

[tinnypriv]

49. Don't beat yourself up

You were posting at the same time as me. :D
Slow would be the speed at which non-Dersh material registers in the synapes of Jim-bo. :toast:

[tinnypriv]

44. Right, back to the topic

Lebanonwire's archives aren't complete by any means, perhaps there was something else that wasn't among the places they commonly link to. Ma'ariv isn't usually one of the Israeli papers they watch, usually just JPost & Ha'aretz.

Yep, you're probably right. I only ever saw it on Ma'ariv and didn't think to check anywhere else or keep a copy or anything. But as you've noted, June was a really big month for this sort of thing so I must at least have the right timeframe. I'll be sure to PM you if I get a link to this specific incident.

on the side, that signifigance of Abu Dis--do you mean because that's where the Palestinians' parliament meets?

Yes, exactly.

When I wrote that interchange above (1 June), the announcement of a new Jewish settlement had only just been made (Ma'ariv, 29/5/03). Here is a translation of that May article. The point you raise is even specifically mentioned in the text:

...

'The Jerusalem Municipality is planning a new Jewish settlement in Abu Dis where the Palestinian Parliament is supposed to be located.

The plans, which were submitted for approval by the District/Building Planning Commission, state that the neighborhood will be built on about 25 acres of land on the eastern border of Jerusalem.

The neighborhood is to be called Kidmat Zion and will contain 250 housing units and two synagogues'

...

So, the significance (and utter stupidity) of this move was completely obvious at the time. Lo and behold, the headlines roughly 3 months later read as:

"Abu Dis: Annexed" (Ma'ariv, 25/08/03)

Basically under the guise of "protecting" this settlement and linking up the Jewish sections with Jerusalem, the GOI decided to run the wall project right through the heart of the city. In fact, from the linked article (2nd to last paragraph):

"The fence is planned to run less than 100 metres west of the Parliament building"

Basically making a total mockery of any Palestinian self-determination. I was going livid about this at the time on DU, and I translated that "annexed" article". Incidentially, it was front page news in Israel but down the memory hole elsewhere.

(If I had a star I'd search for it, but I'm dirt cheap so I can't). ;-)

I honestly think what is happening in Abu Dis is kind of a petri dish for the whole conflict. Mostly it isn't reported (or decontextualised by outlets like the BBC), so nobody gives a damn.

[Forkboy]

32. Bush agrees with you

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/10/07/bush_israel/index.html

[Darranar]

34. He's banned....

of course he agrees with Bush.

[Forkboy]

38. dammit

I always arrive too late for the fun stuff :)

[Fight_n_back]

9. So here is the thought process

Syria says it does not have terror camps and people here say ,"Righto Mr. Assad!, Carry on"

Israel denies it fired into Lebanon and people here say, "Liars! We are balanced and look at the facts".

It may take more than fours hours to find out what happened. It may take more that "Lebanese sources say".

Are you the same people that said Condit did it?

[Aidoneus]

10. who said that first bit?

I posted that because I thought it was interesting--and it's cute when lying politicians make contradicting claims--, but note the :shrug:? it denotes indecision.

I see the denial now, and it seems the IDF is claiming the opposite happened now. :shrug:

[bemildred]

12. Haaretz version

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/347159.html

[durutti]

13. Shades of the Six Day War

Try to provoke the Arabs into defending themselves, then use it as an excuse to conquer.

[SOS]

26. The US

is not in the position now to attack Syria. Attacks on Syria and Iraq were clearly delineated in the American Enterprise document written by Perle and Feith years ago.
Title: A Clean Break* can be seen here:
http://israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm
The destruction of the Iraq regime was one of the goals.
Military attacks on Syria were also suggested.
Since a US attack on Syria would have zero international support (even UK and Spain have said no) and little domestic support, the PNAC/OSP crowd has handed off to Israel. Provoke a war and the US will have political cover to come in from the east.

* note: State Department spokesman Adam Ereli used the expression "a clean break" on Monday to describe the US advice to Syria to break relations with Hizbollah. An interesting choice of words. Of course the White House had no foreknowledge of the attack on Syria. :eyes:

[Aidoneus]

21. so what all happened today?

posted this in LBN; anything left out?

contradictions & denials are a fine feature, but there are some things that probably did happen, I haven't figured out the order yet.. :shrug:

Seems that in the first incident near the border on a road near Kafr Kila, the UN water truck was hit as well as at least one other car (Lebanese sources say a minivan and a sedan were hit on the same road the UN water truck which is confirmed by the UN to have been shot from the Israeli side) and a house in Kafr Kila--with no injuries reported as yet. A Lebanese response (or provocation, depending on which denial is less a lie) to this killed an IDF soldier in Metula, which is on also on the border on the Israeli side near Kafr Kila; Israel claims Hizbullah fired at them here, though it could've been anybody with a firearm that heard what happened earlier.

Later in the day, the northern end of the Lebanese border village of Kafr Shuba to the northeast was hit with some sort of shell, perhaps in response to the IDF death--no casualties reported there.

Somewhere along the line a Lebanese boy in a village called Hula died from some sort of shell also, and his twin brother injured.

Something about Kiryat Shimona as well, no details and (for once today) no confirmations or denials yet.

In general, everybody involved denies everything. :shrug: