Israeli troops storm Gaza refugee camp

[Aidoneus]

Israeli troops storm Gaza refugee camp
Friday 10 October 2003

Three Palestinians are dead, including a 12 year old girl, and 28 wounded after another Israeli invasion of the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip.

Fighting erupted as Israel sent dozens of tanks into the Rafah refugee camp early on Friday on a mission, it said, aimed at destroying tunnels Palestinians used to smuggle weapons.

According to Palestinian security officials, one of the dead is 23-year- old Muhammad Abd al-Wahaba. He was killed when an Israeli Appache fired missiles in the Ybna district demolishing two homes.

Included in the wounded are two women, hit while they were in their homes, and a child injured in the back.

The condition of the women is said to be serious.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/67979658-79FE-4CD1-83A4-7D378A081848.htm

[bluesoul]

1. Innocents killed

So much for the terrorism coming from only one side. 12 year old girl....

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Yes but until the fanatics

on both sides stop attacking, we all bystanders stop enabling
and most importantly those who are on the way to a solution
step to the side, forget it.

Oh and I mean bith Sharon and Arafat, and those they both
represent.

[Aidoneus]

3. up to six now

the latest being an 8yr old boy shot in the head. Reports say up to 50 wounded now.

[bemildred]

4. The Haaretz story

says they're looking for shoulder launched anti-air and anti
tank weapons. Says they found two tunnels. It's worth a look.
I was wondering if any of those Iraqi arms were trying to
migrate?

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. It's horrible

That terrorists locate right in the middle of populated areas and that some people buy the resulting propaganda.

[bluesoul]

6. Muddle I pity you

My god, you really do find excuse (however lame it is) for every innocent child being killed by Israel (IDF), don't you? Blame it all on the terrorists, even if it wasn't them doing the killings.

The "terrorists locate in the middle of populated areas" is the only thing here that is propaganda. As though that is ALWAYS the case. All the rest are facts. Israel killing innocent people. Your excuses are sickening. That is all I can say...

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. And I pity you

That you blame Israel for going after terrorists who DELIBERATELY locate near populated areas to maximize body count.

That leaves Israel two choices:

* Allow the terrorists to operate without taking any action
* Or take action and know that others might die, but the terrorists might be stopped and fewer might die as a result.

The third option of course is the Palestinians doing something about the problem and stopping terror. But we both know THAT is unrealistic.

[Herschel]

9. Indeed my friend

The sad killing of innocents by Israel is a price that must be paid when she defends herself.

[Equinox]

16. You two just don't get it...

I don't know what will...but somehow you just don't get it....


....:shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Terrorists?

Israel alleged it was searching out tunnels. There was no mention at all that it was targetting terrorists. Also, you label any resistance at all in incidents like this as terrorism. People who arm themselves and resist attacks by military forces are NOT terrorists....

Violet...

[laura888]

12. well put, violet!

I definitely think the term "terrorist" is thrown around loosely to support any pro-israel argument.

[Aidoneus]

13. a question on that note

are there statistics calculated anywhere for Palestinians being killed within sight of their cities & homes (including "combatants"/"militants"/"terrorists" or whatever silly name is the preference)?

I've seen some very detailed breakdowns of various catagories, but not specifically noting the breakdowns of all who died during the resisting of attacks (as well the so-called "collateral damage" or whatever ghastly cop-out term is used) on their cities & camps in the 'reprisals'.

(on edit: once I tried to compile this from some press reports, but it was difficult to get a complete account like the more professional/less-amateur compilations..)

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Can't help you there...

Statistics are really depressing so I try to steer clear of them. Plus, when someone gets killed in the conflict, there's always someone close at hand to slap them in a category and make a running commentary of excuses for why the death was justifiable...

Violet...

[Scurrilous]

14. Some Israeli sources now refer....

...to the tunnels as 'terror tunnels.' So while no real terrorists were being targeted, terrorist tunnels were. So any collateral damage to the locals is perfectly excusable.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Terror tunnels?

That reminded me of this little gem...

http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/news/s686640.htm

;)

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. Terrorists vs. not

If Israel goes into Gaza to look for terrorists, their weapons, etc., you could make a claim that those fighting Israel are either terrorists or not. Frankly either way might be valid.

* If you say that people fighting the military are revolutionaries or such, they are not terrorists since they are attacking a military target.
* Or you could point out that anyone defending terrorists is now one of them

[Aidoneus]

8. perhaps a bit OT, but a humble question, sir, if I may..

in all of Israel's history as a military/state, can you think of anything they've ever done that you disagree with?

[Violet_Crumble]

11. I'll take a guess...

He disagrees with how Israel treats the Palestinians who resist legitimately to the occupation because he thinks Israel's been waaaay too easy on them! ;)

Violet...

[Equinox]

18. Don't guess for Muddleoftheroad, VioletCrumble....

Chances are you will be way wrong.

;-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Tons actually

Someone else asked me the same question the other day. I don't agree with the path of the Wall. I think it should have been built sooner. I also think that no Palestinian from the territories should be allowed in -- ever -- until there is peace.

That's a start.

[bluesoul]

21. hmm

So Violet was right. You're even more extreme then I even imagined. No wonder then...

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. How is that extreme

Until the Palestinians will agree to peace, let them handle life on their own.

[bpilgrim]

29. well, that plan doesn't seem to be working...

even when sharon drops bombs on them as well. :shrug:

next...

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Israel isn't doing it

Israel should have walled off the Palestinians a long time ago. Shut off trade, employment and access. Israel only does this periodically. In my plan, any Palestinian not supposed to be in Israel would be in violation of the law and treated like a spy.

Then, and maybe only then, the Palestinians would realize they need Israel's friendship, not animosity.

[bpilgrim]

33. "In my plan, any Palestinian not supposed to be in Israel"

"would be in violation of the law and treated like a spy."

that is what happens today, ever hear of checkpoints?

unless you mean to build a wall all around the country and make it a prison :shrug: i guess that would be different.

guess will have to wait and see how effective this WALL will be in bringing peace and security to the region.

:hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

28. interesting, they aren't being harsh enough is your main complaint

though in charector.

"I think it - the WALL - should have been built sooner. I also think that no Palestinian from the territories should be allowed in -- ever -- until there is peace."

often when i read your comments i can't help but think of authoritarian attitudes of the past.

take imperial japan during wwII and their occupation of china with it's subsequent extreme measures for putting down the resistance who swam among the civilian population.

every time i see your avatar i am reminded of that outsiders book about imperial japan, 'The Chrysanthemum and the Sword' and my main complaint about that book that it focuses on the extremes and therefore misses much more.

i deplore the targeting of all civilians and the environment that fosters such extremist tactics.

and yes, i consider using BOMBS to take out 1 'evil-doer' amongst a civilian population TERRORISM as well.

i think that is where u and i part ways :shrug:

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. No, you have it wrong

Harsh doesn't work unless you do something horrible like the Chinese or former Soviets. Even then, nor only is it immoral, but it still breeds revolution.

I am simply saying Israel should cut ties with the Palestinians until the PA leadership will really talk peace.

I deplore targeting civilians as well. But I see no requirement that Israel deal with Palestinians on the other side of the wall.

And no, I don't consider killing a terrorist who hides among civilians to be a bad thing. Often, other measures like sending in troops, would kill more than a bomb.

[bpilgrim]

34. i quoted you

"Harsh doesn't work unless you do something horrible like the Chinese or former Soviets."

i see...

"I am simply saying Israel should cut ties with the Palestinians until the PA leadership will really talk peace."

do you need to be reminded where arafat is at and the condition of their police?

"I deplore targeting civilians as well."

uh, huh...

"But I see no requirement that Israel deal with Palestinians on the other side of the wall."

i don't see what that has got to do with "targeting civilians"

"And no, I don't consider killing a terrorist who hides among civilians to be a bad thing."

neither do most, we are talking about innocent civilians, right?

dropping bombs to kill one person is TERRORISM and invaribly kills civilians as well as targets them.

just like folks who fish using trolling nets say that they are only targeting 1 kind of fish as they calmly toss the non-targeted dead OTHER FISH back into the sea there is no denying the 'collateral DAMAGE' that is wrong and must be stopped.

peace

[Aidoneus]

23. Rafah declared disaster zone

(first paragraph says 1500 made homeless, elsewhere I saw a UN official quoted as perhaps as much as 2000..)

Rafah declared disaster zone
Monday 13 October 2003

The governor of Rafah has declared the area a disaster zone just hours after Israeli forces pulled out of the town and camp in southern Gaza following a major raid which killed eight Palestinians and left 1500 homeless.

Palestinian security sources witnessed about 40 tanks pulling out of the area on Saturday night, but although an Israeli military source confirmed the withdrawal, he hinted it was only temporary.

International condemnation of Israeli action followed after the full extent of the damage caused by the military invasion began to emerge.

Israel claimed the devastating attack was to destroy weapons- smuggling tunnels snaking under the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt and would "continue as long as is necessary", a spokesman said.

Despite the pullback, six more Palestinians were injured by Israeli gunfire on Sunday, as troops fired intermittently from the Israeli-controlled border area to which they retreated, medical sources said.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4C17C7D4-B9C5-4968-AD9C-4B374E80DA3D.htm

[Aidoneus]

24. Israeli tanks return to torment Rafah

Israeli tanks return to torment Rafah
Tuesday 14 October 2003

At least three Palestinians are reported hurt, one of them seriously, in the latest invasion of Rafah refugee camp in the south of the Gaza Strip.

Israeli tanks and soldiers launched the new assault early Tuesday - hours after a damning human rights report condemned previous raids on the same refugee camp.

The invasion force consists of about 40 tanks, armoured personnel carriers and helicopter gunships.

Occupation forces had only just left Rafah on Monday after a three-day attack that killed eight Palestinians and left more than 1000 homeless last week.

But sunrise on Tuesday saw the return of an even larger attack force with the means to destroy many more homes and lives.

"Israeli helicopters opened fire on the area and soldiers took up rooftop positions on high buildings,” said Aljazeera's correspondent.

Dr Ali Musa, the head of Rafah hospital, told AFP that among
the injured was a 12-year-old boy who was in serious condition after being struck by shrapnel from a tank shell.

Residents said that water and electricity supplies were cut off and that three houses had been demolished.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6E27ADF-9E5B-45CD-A4CD-403A3BCF3D39.htm

[Aidoneus]

25. Haaretz:--IDF: Latest Rafah incursion 'could last several days'

Last Update: 14/10/2003 11:59
IDF: Latest Rafah incursion 'could last several days'
By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent and Agencies

Dozens of armored Israel Defense Forces vehicles
reentered the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip
early Tuesday morning, in the latest operation to
uncover arms-smuggling tunnels.

Military sources confirmed that
an operation was underway,
saying it was a continuation of
the three-day mission that
began Friday. Six Palestinians
were injured in the first hours
of the operation, Palestinian
hospital sources said.

A senior IDF officer in the Gaza Strip
told Army Radio that this new stage of
the operation – officially referred to a
'Root Canal 2' – could last several days.
The officer added that there were 12 known
tunnels in operation.

--snip--

Eight Palestinians, including two children, were
killed during the 72-hour operation that began
early Friday morning. Some 100 houses were
destroyed, leaving about 2,000 people homeless,
according to assessments by International aid
organizations and UNRWA officials.

The commander of the Givati brigade in the
region, Colonel Eyal Eisenberg, denied Tuesday
charges that the IDF was being heavy-handed in
its efforts to uncover tunnels, and that a
disproportionate amount of damage was being
cause.

"I want people to ask how many houses we have
not demolished," he told Army Radio, "not how
many we have. I believe that the IDF's actions
have been entirely moral, and that our behavior
has been above and beyond that of any other
army in the world."

--snip--

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/349442.html

:eyes:

loved the 'moral' spin. That first paragraph reveals something that annoys me a bit about Haaretz.. for all of their worth as independent commentators, they still often toe the military's line about things.

[Aidoneus]

26. from another Haaretz piece

not so much the main quote at the top, but this bit jumped out:--

--snip--

At the opening stage of the operation,
8-year-old Ibrahim Krinawi was killed. Ibrahim,
whose house was in the first row facing the
border, was the youngest of five children. His
father Ahmed said the family was in the house
when the operation began. They were going to
leave but the bulldozer got there before they
were able to do so. He said the bulldozer began
tearing down a wall of the house, and he and
his children went outside to stop it. At this
point, a single shot hit Ibrahim in the right
side of his chest and he collapsed. His father
called an ambulance. As Ibrahim's brother Ayad
told it, "at the beginning, he was conscious
and yelling that it was hurting him terribly
and for us to save him. Then he began to bleed
and he begged us to take the bullet out but we
couldn't do anything." The father said a
Palestinian ambulance stopped a few hundred
meters from the house but could not come any
closer. Finally, family members carried Ibrahim
to the ambulance. An hour later, he died at a
makeshift clinic.

Twelve-year-old Sami Salah was also killed
during the operation in one of the alleys near
Jamal Yussuf's home. Sami's uncle said his
nephew was shot in the head by an IDF
sharpshooter about an hour after the operation
began. He died immediately.

Rafah's single high school for the sciences, a
new facility, now serves as a shelter for some
150 residents made homeless by the operation.
Razik Al-Abasi, also from Yabneh, lives in a
building that was home to six brothers and
their families, 43 people in all. "We heard the
noise of the tanks and the bulldozers, and saw
the projectors pointed in our direction," he
said. "At a certain point, we understood that
half the house had been destroyed and the other
half was going to fall down, so we ran out with
all the children. We looked for a place to rent
but we couldn't even find a storeroom."
Al-Abasi, like other residents of the camps who
sought shelter at the school, are able to stay
in a classroom during the night but he said
"except for the clothes on our back, we have
nothing, no food for the children and no
schoolbags." When he returned home after the
operation began he discovered that the house
had been completely demolished.

Other families are being housed in various
municipal buildings throughout Rafah until
other quarters can be found. UNRWA sources said
they will try to give $500 to each family that
lost their home, but this will not help much.

Damage has also been done to the city's already
failing sewage system. Phone, electricity, and
water lines are totally inoperative.

--snip--

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/349478.html

[Aidoneus]

27. MSNBC:--'Many left homeless in Gaza'

Many left homeless in Gaza
Israeli operation at refugee camp called destructive incursion

RAFAH REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip, Oct. 14 — Salahuddin Street was a canyon of rubble Tuesday, the guts and souls of a dozen houses bulldozed into hills of splintered furniture, crushed concrete blocks and tattered clothing.

THE RAVAGED STREET near the Gaza Strip’s southern border with Egypt was just a snapshot of a broader swath of devastation: more than 230 homes razed, bulldozed or heavily damaged, according to international aid organizations that describe this as the Israeli military’s most destructive incursion into Gaza since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising three years ago.

--snip--

Col. Pinky Zoaredez, Israel’s commander in southern Gaza, said Palestinians and international aid organizations had “exaggerated the numbers” and that soldiers had destroyed “no more than a dozen houses.”

“Our mission is to stop terrorists from smuggling ammunition and weapons from Egypt,” Zoaredez said. “We behave very gently with innocent people.”

But a Washington Post reporter counted a dozen houses demolished or heavily damaged on three blocks of Salahuddin Street in the Rafah refugee camp’s Yibneh neighborhood — just one of at least a half-dozen communities within the camp that have been attacked by the Israeli forces.

--snip--

http://www.msnbc.com/news/980554.asp?0cv=CA01&cp1=1

[Forkboy]

30. “no more than a dozen houses.”

oh,well it's ok then :eyes: